Let's try this again! AA's and July 4th.

[Fire1]

Let's try again to have a discussion about the black experience and the 4th of July, bna, Independence Day, since earlier attempts were locked.
For those who missed my response to a question re: the cause (or struggle) of the Civil War, I will cut/copy from the previous thread as follows:I'll be happy to oblige as briefly as I can.

Slavery was the dynamic of a socioeconomic system and racism was the underlying idea system. Even Lincoln, as an idealistic equalitarian, had a racist side at one time, depicted in his debate with Stephen Douglas in southern Illinois where he expressed white supremacist ideas indicative of the social and political implications of the institution of slavery. "I am not nor ever have been in favor of bringing about social and political equality of the white and black races - that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes." Of course, eventually, Lincoln changed his views to condemn AND redeem the transgressions of a sinful nation via the Emancipation Proclamation.

Until the end of the nineteenth century, cotton that was planted, cultivated, harvested and ginned by slaves, was by far the most important and lucrative export. Antebellum homes, in the NORTH AND SOUTH, were built by slaves and from the profits derived from slave and cotton trades. The cotton gin made slavery MORE profitable. Indeed, the northerners AND southerners found it harsh and difficult to part with this idealism.

Politically, in the 1830's southern states and the federal government pushed the Indians out of most stretches of Mississippi, Alabama and Georgia, and slavery was expanded. In the decades that followed, slavery went from being a 'necessary evil' to being seen as a 'positive value' to slaves themselves (dependent on their masters for their very survival).

There are many interesting aspects of the Civil War that many many people, both black and white, have yet to discover or were grossly misinformed about from their time in school. Hope this sheds some light.

[Number23]

1. I love this topic. Thanks, Fire1!

Many black folks have had a hard time when it comes to the Fourth of July. How do you appropriately celebrate the birth of a country whose founding was created on your back and with your sweat, blood and tears? That has gone out of its way to treat every person who looked like you as if you were less than trash, deserving of not even basic rights, and where even learning to read or trying to vote was grounds for death or imprisonment?

Frederick Douglass says it beautifully:

What, to the American slave, is your 4th of July? I answer; a day that reveals to him, more than all other days in the year, the gross injustice and cruelty to which he is the constant victim. To him, your celebration is a sham; your boasted liberty, an unholy license; your national greatness, swelling vanity; your sound of rejoicing are empty and heartless; your denunciation of tyrants brass fronted impudence; your shout of liberty and equality, hollow mockery; your prayers and hymns, your sermons and thanks-givings, with all your religious parade and solemnity, are to him, mere bombast, fraud, deception, impiety, and hypocrisy -- a thin veil to cover up crimes which would disgrace a nation of savages. There is not a nation on the earth guilty of practices more shocking and bloody than are the people of the United States, at this very hour.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part4/4h2927.html

[Fire1]

2. The entire speech is most profound and that last paragraph

says it all. Flag? I think not.

[Number23]

4. Well, I think modern day blacks look at it from several different angles

Yeah, we know how this country has drop kicked us in the gut every chance it's gotten and there's alot of (righteous, deserved) anger as a result of that.

However, there are opportunities in the United States that black folks in other parts of the world could only dream of. That has to be taken into consideration as well.

[Fire1]

6. Modern day blacks fail to realize that white supremacy is not

only residual from this war but developments in American history since slavery ended have maintained it. Opportunities that we have been 'given' are the direct result of federal legislation and 'opportunities' derived from civil unrest. IOW, forced. Of course, that would not happen in a monarchy but there are a few european countries that have a democracy where blacks could and DO have opportunities equal or exceeding those here in the states.

[Number23]

9. That is a fantastic point

Opportunities that we have been 'given' are the direct result of federal legislation and 'opportunities' derived from civil unrest.

Absolutely. And black people should be immensely proud that it was the dedication and (often painful) sacrifice of our people that lead to these changes. If there had never been the pressure on the Supreme Court, the Congress, federal and local government etc. we STILL would not have our rights.

And yes, there may be other countries in Europe or North America where blacks have similar opportunities but I was specifically thinking of Africa, the Caribbean, South America etc. where many average citizens would love to have many of the same opportunities that blacks have in America, no matter how hard fought those opportunities may have been.

[Number23]

3. As you stated so beautifully, Lincoln was still a white man

at a time when white men decided if blacks were even allowed to live. As such, there is no doubt that he possessed many racist tendencies, and is widely acknowledged to have lamented that if he could have avoided the Civil War without having freed a single slave he would have.

But credit deserves to be given; the Emancipation Proclamation was and deserves to be one of Lincoln's shining legacies.

It always interests me when folks act as though slavery only benefited the South. This whole damn COUNTRY was built on the backs of African slaves -- from sea to shining sea, including every purple mountain majesty and amber wave of grain. There is barely a segment of the American economy that is not touched by this country's history of black slavery and black racial oppression.

[Fire1]

5. Oh wow! You've touched on a subject here that begins

with Reconstruction and the effects of slavery on U.S. foreign policy. My whole initial point being, contrary to popular belief, the Civil War was not about the shear inhumanity of slavery. Far from it. Not only that, but as you stated, it was not a 'regional' war or struggle that existed only in the south. I recall an earlier apt description, "the unholy alliance" between the north and south existing to perpetuate the industry of racial slavery.

I agree, the EP is and should be Lincoln's legacy. It is indicative of his growth and evolution as a leader and humanitarian.

[firedupdem]

7. Thanks Fire1 and the rest....

excellent posts and information here.

[Kind of Blue]

8. I missed the locked thread. But, Fire1

are you saying you had to argue that the Civil War was not a war to end slavery, that it wasn't about economics? Wow, that's incredible.

I read at some point in life that even the spread of slavery into the southwest was a direct result of the power of moneymaking cotton. I mean that these new states were even claiming rights to be slave states because of the incredible profit from cotton production.

It cracks me up, not in a funny ha-ha way, that cotton, the very prize of the South that they even used to bargain with worldwide, was the very thing that caused their demise.

But I've always wondered, Fire1, as a kid in school I was taught that if it wasn't for the cotton gin, slavery in the U.S. would have faded away. Do you think that's really true? It's just seems to be taken as matter of fact and I'm not sure if it really is.

[Fire1]

10. Essentially, the argument was that the struggle to END

slavery was a humanitarian effort, and I opposed that view as a popular misconception fed to the general public as propaganda.
I had to argue that it was ALL about economics followed by underlying racism that continues to this day!

I'm in agreement with you about the cotton gin. It only made slavery MORE profitable than it had been previously, due to the increased speed in productivity. If it had never been invented, slavery would have continued on it's own merits, so to speak, b/c slavery was an industry that perpetuated a 'style' of living. Remember, in the 19th century, the American definition of what it was to be a man was linked to being able to protect and CONTROL DEPENDENTS, which meant exercising mastery over blacks (whether he owned any or not)as well as over women and children!

Secondly, the emancipation of slaves brought about tremendous fear among whites! The assumption was that if slaves were freed from bondage they would terrorize, murder and violate vulnerable white women and children. So, YES, slavery would have continued because it was NECESSARY, particularly to white southerners' conception of manhood AND for those who OWNED any, NECESSARY to their conception of wealth and status.

[Kind of Blue]

11. Thanks, Fire1. Too sad. And this kicks me hard:

"terrorize, murder and violate vulnerable white women and children." The very slave owner argument to keep a group of people enslaved for the life is the fear of what they'll do to them, based on their claimed right to terrorize, murder and violate. Wow, it's so twisted. I just remember Toni Morrison being blasted with her book and movie, "Beloved," when she spoke of the unspoken mental illness in America that is the legacy of slavery.