Please help me? Am I wrong thinking that the talk here

[xultar]

@ DU against Andrew Young calling him a media whore and the Black Womens Caucus will have serious consequences to the black vote?

When Young White liberals call Charles Rangle an Asshole or a Fucker it makes me angry. Rangle has done more than all these folks here have done combined.

When Young White libers call Andrew Young and Obama a Sellout and Media Whore it makes me FURIOUS.

We dont disrespect our leaders that way. I don't think this attitude is going to help the DEMS if the DEM BASE continues to behave in such a manner.

White Liberals here @ DU appear to know more about being Black than I do. Xcuse me but that is FUCKED UP.

White Liberal here @ DU appear to make me doubt that I'm Black. Xcuse me but that is FUCKED UP.

WTF is UP with these muthafuckas.

[qanda]

1. Check out this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3009128

They are accusing me of calling Democrats racist and telling me that I think Condi and Gonzales should get through just because they are minorites. I just wonder if these people even bother to listen to themselves. In essence, I'm trying to tell them that they have a perception problem and if they don't deal with it they are going to continue to lose black voters from the Democratic Party. They just don't get it!!!!!

Essentially, we are fighting the same battle, just on different threads.

[kwassa]

2. There are DUs who are on the extreme left edge, and

believe in all types of conspiracies, and are strongly opposed to moderate Democrats of any type, black or white. They are also way over the top in their anger, and their lack of civility to fellow Democrats, so lost in their ideology that they don't listen to what black Americans are saying, in my opinion.

[TroubleMan]

15. Don't paint us with such a broad swathe

I'm probably one of the most liberal people here, I don't follow into any of those categories: incivility, over top anger, lost in ideology, not listening. There are some that do fall into those at DU, but they run from the conservative DUers to the moderate DUers to the liberal DUers.

Maybe the ones with whom you disagree with most stand out to you the most when they act that way, but there is no concentration of those traits among most liberal among us....it's spread out.

[xultar]

3. Don't you love it how they throw The Black Commentator up...more Whites

read The Black Commentator than Black Folk!!! :crazy:

[qanda]

6. I am really getting frustrated

And I'm trying to contain my anger, but perhaps it will be better for me to just walk away from the thread and let them see what the results will be if they continue to bury their heads in the sand.

[angee_is_mad]

20. Ain't that the truth!

I never heard of it until I came here.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

5. I think some just look for any excuse to bash affirmative action.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

4. Yeah, I posted about this earlier (Obama that is)

I feel your frustration. The thing that pisses me off, more than just about anything else on DU, is when people get together and start saying "well, the civil war was wrong because slavery would have been outlawed eventually..." It makes me so mad. SO SO ANGRY. People on DU are freaking out about living under Bush for 4 more years and that is with their freedom. Let them try to live until "eventually" those slave owners would be willing to give up their slaves.

[msgadget]

7. Forgive me, Xultar,

but should we rally behind other blacks just because...? And, if we have no problem calling someone a media whore, why are we offended because the person being branded is black and not white?

I ask of you, how is that EQUAL? I want to be treated EQUALLY. I don't expect not to be judged for my statements or performance just because I happen to be black. What would that make me - a protected species?

[kwassa]

8. I think the term "media whore" is pointless, regardless of who they are

talking about, black, white, or purple.

I realize people are frustrated by the Bush administration, but it does nothing to build support against him by using such extreme language. The point is, we want to get the Repubs out of office, and to do that we need more of that swing middle-of-the-road voter, because that is a lot of America.

[msgadget]

9. ABSOLUTELY,

You're SO right! What's propelling this beyond Andrew Young's right to disagree with the Democrats is the heated rhetoric. There's a lot of it on DU lately. Everyone's in high battle mode over something...or everything.

[xultar]

12. RIGHT!!! What DUers are saying is that no one has

a mind of his own or enough sense to know what is good for him. Whether we think so or not.

Then they wanna bring up MLK? After insulting the AY the man that walked Arm in ARM with MLK and was with him when he died.

I'm sorry. I can't understand why they think that they can insult Andrew Young and the Black Women's caucus for disagreeing with them. These Blacks are still in the trenches. If they catch a whiff of this man when they tell it to their communities the ripples wil be serious.

[msgadget]

13. I hate to agree with you

but you're right. For those who don't avidly follow the news or understand the full extent of this administration's duplicity, insulting Andrew Young is as shocking an offense as attacking a black female.

However, most of us here at DU do follow the news and we - or, perhaps I should speak for myself - do know that she deserved to be closely questioned. In fact, giving her a pass would've been racist, imo. Andrew Young was a first himself and much admired. Dr. Rice will, similarly, always maintain a high regard, especially by those who place a high value on historic firsts.

Andrew Young, of all people, should realize Dr. King didn't die just so black people could enjoy such heights without being accountable. Didn't Dr. King ask us to judge people by '...the content of their character..'?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

10. That's one of the things I don't understand...

I'm not willing to let someone work against my rights just because they share the same color of skin as me. I don't understand why people shout that democrats need to be more firm and at the same time want Condi and Gonzales to be let go. Yeah, I can see that "it looks bad", but the Republicans are good spin machines. If they let Condi and Gonzales through and then start fighting the next time, they'll get the "reverse racism" card thrown at them. And the thing is, the Republicans are HIDING behind Condi and Gonzales. They don't care if every person they appoint is a minority if that minority is still beholden to their white interests. If they appoint minorities strictly or mostly are dems to let each one slide because they don't want to look racist?

[msgadget]

14. Yes and it's a dangerous path to follow.

Malcolm never would've fallen for this. Dr. King would've been diplomatic, I'm sure. But, why else would the president schedule meetings with Black clergy during the same week the Democrats would be grilling a black woman severely?

This SAME president grumbled to the effect he didn't need to meet with black groups because he was working for ALL Americans. And, during his first term he warned grass roots organizations not to even bother to try and see him if they wanted to bring up issues not on his radar. Well, he said that before '05 but, with Gonzales and Rice, soon to be served up, all of a sudden he's a HUGE fan of MLK.

I KNOW I'm not the only to see this and I have NOT had a hard time breaking it down for anyone the least bit confused. In fact, I spoke with my mom - a huge Young fan - and she snorted in disgust and asked what was wrong him.

[xultar]

11. You aren't getting what I'm saying...You don't think your relatives who

aren't as plugged in asyou will see this as disrespecting Young.

How will your Aunts and Uncles feel about young white people calling Andrew Young a Sellout and Whore.

That's who I'm talking about. People who still sop up their gravey with their biscuit. They aren't gonna like whites dissin Andrew Young and the Black Womens Caucus.

B 4 REAL.

I'm just trying to caution young whites about their behaviour and what the ramifications can be.

I live in Atlanta. I respect and love Anderw Young. NO I DON'T AGREE WITH HIM BUT I'M NOT GOING TO CALL HIM NAMES. THAT IS NOT KEWL.

[candy331]

17. Andrew Young is a big boy and can take care of himself,

surely he knew that Ms Rice does not represent nor identify with the bulk of Black folk in this country. You know even Jesus Christ went to his own people first and chastised them for their conduct, placing the blame where it squarely went on their shoulders and Mr Young should have done the same thing and if he could not do so he should have refrained from speaking at all. Surely he knew that he was going to feel heat for appearing with Repugs who are trying to take the rights of the very people he and Dr King marched in step for. Sometimes silence is best and at this time silence was best for Mr Young if he could not see that he was speaking for the "color of skin rather than content of character."

With that being said I too agree that it is an abomination that Democrats will have to follow, not lead,( will go kicking and screaming of course) the example of the very repugs they call racist to put Blacks in Key positions too.

[SemperEadem]

16. No, we don't 'disrespect' our leaders this way

While I am sick of the ignorant and vulgar condemnation of her accomplishments prior to January 2000 by trying to make it sound as if it was handed to her through an Affirmative Action program, I also am disgusted by blacks who feel that calling her on the carpet over the lies she has put forth which have gone into the record--such as the 9/11 Commission Report--is disrespectful and unfair and should be ignored, based upon her accomplishments before January 2000.

When our leaders have made decisions which have cost many American troops their lives, and a large portion of the all-volunteer armed services are African Americans, based upon a series of lies told by Dr. Rice, then there is nothing wrong with vigorously challenging Dr. Rice as she runs the gauntlet to an office of such extreme import, such as the Secretary of State.

She needed to be raked over the coals and politeness has no place when there is so much blood spilled for no good, legal reason. I think that Andrew Young and C. Delores Tucker, arm and arm with Bill Frist, doing a non plussed routine of indignation over Dr. Rice's treatment solely because they feel an accomplished black scholar should be above question or reproach is insane and offensive to those soldiers who have died over in Iraq. Not only them but offensive to those who died in the 9/11 attacks, too.

4,447 Americans for a lie she advanced.

[candy331]

18. Well spoken Semper, the sooner people get this the better off we

all Will be, but I don't look for this to happen anytime soon.

[msgadget]

19. Well said, Semper.

I could understand their issuing a joint statement of disgust outside the political arena, but a photo op with a ranking member of the GOP is definitely more a condemnation of a party than a process.

[GOPFighter]

21. Maybe I'm a little confused

I have a couple of comments about this.

First, just about every Democratic politician, every decent journalist, and every liberal pundit has been called names by other DUers. No matter who you like or respect, it seems like someone else hates him or her. I've seen people post good, positive articles on DU and out of nowhere someone slams the author as a media whore, or sellout, or claims the author (or politician) is not partison enough. I'm sure you've all seen this happen. So I'm curious why, when someone like this attacks a person of color, a racial component is suspected? There are a lot of DUers who are angry about everything and a lot of purists who dislike anyone who doesn't fit their narrow definition of progressive.

And anyway, how can you tell if a poster is a young white liberal, or a middle aged Hispanic, or a troll? One of the great things about DU is that race, age, gender, and looks are invisible here, unlike real life. A bright 14 year old can post her thoughts here and be judged on the content of her post rather than her age or gender or race.

If I ever call Obama a sellout, please judge me as misguided, or a hothead, or even dumb, but not a closet racist. And definately NOT a young white liberal (I'm an old white liberal, thank you).

[kwassa]

22. My take on this

GOPfighter:
"So I'm curious why, when someone like this attacks a person of color, a racial component is suspected?"

It is not the fact that they are attacked, it is HOW they are attacked that is the key point, I think. An example would be attacks on Condi that claim her success is due to Affirmative Action. This assumption has a racist idea at it's core, is something that black professionals often have to fight against.

"And anyway, how can you tell if a poster is a young white liberal, or a middle aged Hispanic, or a troll?"

I'll bet that many of the black posters here can tell when a poster is white, not always, but most of the time. It is often revealed in both racially insensitive comments, and statements that reveal a lack of knowledge of black people and black culture in general. This lack of knowledge is pretty common among all white people, including white progressives.

I'm actually rather surprised that you, (who is married to a black woman, are you not?) are not picking up on these things, but I guess that you are not sensitized to them, for whatever reason. I am also white and married to a black woman, and I sure see this ignorance around the DU.

[msgadget]

23. I understand your confusion

because I share it somewhat. It takes more than a quick quip or two for me to label someone racist just because the subject being sliced & diced is black. And, I don't even try and figure out whether the poster is white or black unless they consistently post things that skate on the edge of my nerves (nerve, I have only one left).

And, it brings to light something I'm reluctant to express and that is the propensity for adoration and putting folk on pillars. Okay, there, I said it, but often people invest so much faith, trust and loyalty in fallible mortal beings that I'm taken aback. Andrew Young lost his post as a First. C. Delores Tucker is, I believe, STILL suing 2Pac's estate... They deliberately used their celebrity to speak out against a PARTY without addressing the criticism, basically asking for a free pass for a person of color. (I am wearing asbestos, btw)

ALL public people are up for grabs! I don't think MLK or Mother Theresa could escape unscathed. Surely they would say something that didn't exactly line up with someone's perception of them or have a photo snapped with the president and soon there'd be mumblings of them selling out. And, such is life.

Edit: spelling

[xultar]

25. I wasn't calling them racist. I'm saying that they are disrespectful

and Black folk as a culture don't do that.

I'm in my 30's. I still can't say swear words around my mother. My child hood friends also continue that respect to our elders.

I'm not saying they are racist for doing it. I'm saying they are disrespectful.

Notice that I didn't say they were bad in calling Condi any bad names. Condi isn't respected.

AY and the Black Womens Caucus is beacus they are our elders.

Just cuz I use the word white I'm saying they are racist.

You're black weren't you shocked when you found out your white friends could curse @ their parents?

[msgadget]

26. Yes, I get what you're saying, Xultar.

Andrew Young fought the fight that gave us the rights we have today and should be given respect for that into eternity. But, I don't think younger liberals fully FEEL how monumental his effort was. And, when he opens his mouth, surely he much realize how many black people consider him wise.

So, if I am extremely perplexed over his photo op with Frist, you can imagine how someone who doesn't have a proper historical context for deference might react.

[xultar]

27. I'm not as perplexed as I was dissapointed. I talked to my dad about it

and he summed it up.
He said "you know, based on what he had to go through Young is keyed on blacks being in high positions. But, I don't know why he had to waste his endorsment on that. He knew she was going to be confirmed and other blacks in leadership were silent. Did he get some reassurances from Condi that she would up the numbers of Blacks in the ranks @ the State Department?" Maybe that's it. My dad thinks she is qualified to be in that position. Now this is a bruva from down south GA whos had the dogs on him back in the 50 and 60s.
My dad does not like her but he respects her achievements enough to think she's qualified.

My pops is informed. But he feels that way and I don't. But more blacks than not even though they don't like her they do respect her. You'd be hard pressed finding someone in the Black community to get all down and call her names.

Younger blacks yes...they are learning those lessons. But 20's and up I'm thinking they won't go there.

Thanks for trying to understand what I was saying.

[msgadget]

28. I feel ya.

I really, really understand exactly where you're coming from. That's why I also talked to my mother about it because she, more than I, would know. She's not willing to give him the credit your father is, but Andrew Young will always be...well Andrew Young, to her! :)

[xultar]

24. I think that we older folks wouldn't be as hot headded as the younger

ones. That is why I didn't say old white.

I wouldn't say old. I'd more than likely go with Blue hairs and include everyone.

I see young white liberals very different than I see young chinese liberals, or young Indian Liberals.

Why cuz when I was in high school and I went to my boyfriends house (Joey, White) he'd say Shit and Damn and Fuck to his mom. He said all his friends were doing it. I was like man if I ever say that to my mom you'd be sending flowers to Walkers Funeral Home. Straight Up.

I do see something different in Young White liberals that I don't see in any other young Liberals and what I thought I wouldnt' see in Older Liberals. That's all. I thought seeing Andrew Young on TV live getting water cannons sprayed on him and other blacks would give you lasting respect for him. I'm not saying that you'd have to agreee with him. But you sure wouldn't call him a dumb fuck sell out liberal.

But if you are a Old Liberal that would say FUCK YOU to a respected member of the Black Civil Rights movement then I'll adjust my tone and say White Liberals.

Black folk just don't do that, neither do Asians, Indians, American Indians, Africans, Hispanics, etc... It's a cultural thing. I will say though it is being diluted by extended exposure to the American culture. It is one of the main reasons people fight against the spreading of Americanism through out the world. Why?

Because when we come in to a culture it's all or nothing. They get our TV our Music etc. It is quite addictive. They don't want their children hurling obsenities @ their elders.

If I were to cuss anywere near my mom shed back hand me and she's 60. My dad would do it also. That is the way I was brought up and the rest of the kids my age @ that time.

So. Excuse me if I didn't include you in the disrespectful bunch of kids. I'll be more careful next time.

[GOPFighter]

29. Xultar, I think we both misunderstood each other.

I now see where you're coming from.

By the way, I would never say FUCK YOU to a respected Black Civil Rights movement member. I have too much respect for what they have gone through and what they have sacrificed.

Oh, and I was only kidding about not calling me a YOUNG white liberal. I was trying to inject some humor to a touchy subject.

Also, I raised three kids and I would have made life extremely miserable if they ever cussed me (fortunately they never did). I salute your Mom for setting high standards!

GOPFighter

[xultar]

31. You're right I miss understood. The longer I spend in GD the less humor

I'm able to recognize everywhere else.

I'm sorry I missunderstood. The craziness in the GDs makes me wonder sometimes if I'm in DU or FR.

:pals:

[mark414]

30. what's up

for the record, i am just generalizing about my experiences and observations and this should in no way be mistaken for a blanket statement

that said, i think the biggest problem with white liberals (and i'm saying this as a white liberal) is that they have convinced themselves that they are not racists

they say to themselves, i'm a tolerant person, i love all my human brothers and sisters, i'm not a racist

i think that when the topic of race is addressed, white liberals are most likely to bring up "the human race," which is noble and idealistic but completely ignores the reality of the role that race has played not only in this country but around the world. yes, race is a social construct, but it still affects real people in real ways whether we like it or not.

because these people have worked so hard to convince themselves that they are not racist, it makes it nearly impossible for them to look inside themselves and say, "well gee...maybe i do have some racism still inside of me."

from my perspective, the most insidious form of racism is not the neo-nazis or the KKK or any of that bullshit that just about anyone will condemn.

i think the worst form of racism comes from well intentioned people, good people, moral people who want so badly not to be called a racist that they do everything they can to convince themselves they aren't.

i'm not exactly sure what i'm trying to say with this, it's 4 am and i can't think straight, but i guess i am just posting to let you know that i am and always will be an ally and i will always work hard to not only educate my white brothers and sisters but also to keep learning myself because unfortunately, the way i see it, the only way to get through to these people is for white folks like me to call them on it

i think that's it for now