Selective Service asks Vets to wear medals on the left side Nov. 11th

[Ian David]

<snip>

I am asking you to pass the word regarding an effort "to kindle a
new spark of patriotism" by asking men and women who have served in the
military to wear their medals on Saturday November 11,2006, Veterans Day.

The Selective Service System and the Secretary of Veterans
Affairs are asking that American's veterans wear their medals on the left
side (you need not be in uniform) on November 11th.

<snip>
Additional information is available on a web page:
http://www.va.gov/veteranspride /

[HereSince1628]

1. Oh boy! Just like Russian Veterans of the Great Patriotic War!!!

Sorry, but this just makes me heart sick.

The guys who died had little need or interest in medals. They mostly wanted to live, come home and have full lives.

I don't need recognition 35 years later, and I don't need to pump up faux patriotism.

This nation still hasn't learned the damn lesson.

[noamnety]

2. I'm all for this

I'm thinking they'd stand out nicely on those black Veterans for Peace tee shirts.

[unhappycamper]

19. The mini pins look good on my VFP hat. n/t

[sarge43]

3. The Selective Service wants us to do this?

Well, old white guys, I'm not going to do anything to encourage any more naive kids into the sausage machine. You all probably don't give a rat's ass about them, but I do and I have to look myself in mirror.

Plus, it looks tacky to wear medals on civvies

Finally, patriotism is like money, sex, and religious faith. If you really got it, you don't have to flaunt it.

:mad:

[BOSSHOG]

5. A little slack Sarge

I'm an old white guy retired from the Navy and I love all My Sailors past and present. I didn't put them in harms way when I served and I wouldn't now. I have to much respect for my rack of ribbons and medals to put them on civvies. I earned the right to wear them on my uniform but they'll stay off anything else. I have no need to flaunt my patriotism with a flag or a magnet. I got that ticket punched.

[sarge43]

6. I have nothing against old white guys per se, Boss

I'm married to one and I love the old fart.

It's just that whenever I hear this renew our patriotism yadayada, I get a whiff of "these kids nowadays" garbage. I hated it when I was one of those kids and age hasn't changed my opinion.

Agreed on the chest salad. It belongs on the uniform or in a frame on the wall in the My Room - nowhere else.

I would've liked to have served in your unit, Chief; you're my kind of noncom.

[Ian David]

7. I suppose you could wear your medals while telling kids NOT to enlist? n/t

[Mortis]

8. Oh come on

Oh come on, man.

Remember that veterans gave you the right to post here on this forum and say whatever you want (in the forum rules of course)

[Nave]

32. What's your point

I owe the internet to people like Bill Gates and other progressive thinking people, rather than war mongers who brag about killing and maiming. Many people served in the armed forces because they HAD to (draft) and others because they wanted to (for the benefits or for pure patriotism). But the current administration has turned "enlistment" into a dirty word. Bush has done more to discourage our volunteer army and national guard than anyone would possibly imagine.

So long as that nut is in office and willing to send troops to die for nothing, I would expect more and more Americans to refuse to enlist. As a result our recruitment is waaaaaaaay down and if we ever had to fight a REAL war then HERE COMES THE DRAFT.

Our veterans should be proud of their service to our country, but if the Selective Service System wants to use their hard earned medals as recruiting tools they have something else coming.

[Mortis]

33. Can you

Can you tell me where in the link it says "The Selective Service"?

Looks to me like they just want us old fogies to wear our medals.

And I joined for patriotism.

[Ian David]

37. You could use the medals as anti-recruiting tools.

You could show-up in full uniform, with a chest full of medals, and tell kids, "I'm not a coward. I served willingly, I served proudly, I served well and I earned these medals. But I am telling you, do not enlist under this president."

That's my personal opinion.

[4bucksagallon]

4. I'll wear them when Bush admits he had special treatment getting into the guard..........

and that he deserted. So I guess that means ain't going to happen.

[Mortis]

9. Do we really need to bring up the fake memo AGAIN?

Kind of funny how a 40 year old typewriter writes in Microsoft Office font, huh?

[TheBaldyMan]

10. one fake memo in a tall stack of genuine paper saying Dubya ducked out

and served the rest of his time in a paper unit.

The guy is a deserter, never mind awol.

[Mortis]

11. I'd like to see your proof

Did Alex Jones make another movie that I missed?

[TheBaldyMan]

12. you're kidding, right? Please tell me you're kidding

[Mortis]

13. Sorry, I'm not

I've looked at the "evidence" and I've looked at all of the fake material out there and I'm not convinced.

It's my opinion. Sorry if it doesn't match yours, but it's what makes our country grand.

[TheBaldyMan]

14. Would this fake material involve the many documents relating to Bush's service record?

patchy at best definately incomplete. Are you saying that Bush met the minimum obligation for his TANG commitment?

The guy jumped the queue, checked the box to avoid overseas deployment, scraped past his flight exam and still ducked out of his flight medical when it became clear he was subject to drug screening.

After that he never regained flight status. He wandered off. When the shit hit the fan he was tranferred to an administrative (paper) unit usually reserved for guard pilots returning from Viet Nam so they could get early release off base and didn't have to hang about for a few weeks.

Thats where his 'honorable discharge' came from. It sure as hell didn't come from anytime clocked up in a cockpit or on duty at an air-force base.

[LibbyTreehugger]

15. You're wrong!

I totally disagree with you Mortis.

[Mortis]

16. That's okay!

If we can't disagree with each other and then discuss the disagreement, what good is talking?

[LibbyTreehugger]

17. What's the point..

.. in talking, if you're so far gone in your thought process?

[Mortis]

18. Oh, that's easy!

Make me change my mind!

Post the proof and I'll look at it.

Doesn't mean I'll change my mind....

But at least you'll try.

[ificandream]

20. the proof is out there...

That story wasn't just based on the memos. Other stories relied on interviews, as well. But here's info from Wikipedia:

"Bush signed a six-year "military service obligation," he was required to attend at least 44 inactive-duty training drills each fiscal year beginning July 1. But Bush's own records show that he fell short of that requirement, attending only 36 drills in the 1972-73 period, and only 12 in the 1973-74 period." <1>

Bush was assigned serve at the Houston Air National Guard base between 1968 and 1973. Bush graduated from flight school in November 1969 and undertook a further six months training in the F-102 fighter-interceptor. Between June 1970 and April 1972 he flew frequently with his unit.

However, in May 1972 he sought and gained approval to move to Alabama to work on the U.S. Senate campaign of Republican Party candidate, Winton Blount. While in Alabama Bush was obliged to continue his duties with another National Guard unit. After failing to have an annual physical examination Bush was removed from flight duty on August 1, 1972.

Bush's military records reveal that he did not do any duty between April 16 and October 28, 1972 and missed training altogether in December 1972 and February and March 1973. There were no records of him having served with any unit in Alabama. It is a requirement of members of the National Guard that they accumulate a minimum of 50 service points in a year. (Each full day of weekend training is worth two points).

On May 2, 1973 one of Bush's superiors noted that "Lt. Bush has not been observed at this unit during the period of report. A civilian occupation made it necessary for him to move to Montgomery, Alabama. He cleared this base on 15 May 1972 and has been performing equivalent training in a non-flying status with the 187th Tac Recon Gp, Dannelly ANG Base, Alabama." However, no records for service in Alabama exist.<2>

Subsequently Bush spent 36 days in May, June and July 1973 on duty, accumulating 41 points. According to the Boston Globe, he was then awarded 15 'gratuitous' service points - enough to get him across the 50 service points threshold. His last service day was July 30, 1973 and - while originally due to serve through to November 1974 - was honourably discharged early to enable him to attend Harvard Business School. <3>

[Mortis]

21. Thanks!

I'll try to find some links to this so we can argue it.

And what is an "inactive duty training drill"?

And just an FYI, one weekend of drills is four drill periods.

[BOSSHOG]

23. BUSH DESERTED HIS MILITARY UNIT TO AVOID A DRUG TEST

The bare minimum application of intellectual curiousity will have any rational human being arrive at that conclusion, unless of course, an agenda blinds one's eyes. I don't play the silly ass game of "prove it to me" which is classic neocon. Do yourself a favor and check it out yourself. Would you have liked to have served under his "leadership?"

Happy Veteran's Day.

[TheBaldyMan]

24. IMHO his user name should be BrainMortis n/t

[Mortis]

38. But

I have hair :)

[TheBaldyMan]

39. I am only bald because my brains are pushing my hair out from inside

:P

[sarge43]

28. Nor are there any orders reassigning him to Dannelly

You can maybe use the latrine without PCS orders, but not much else.

That statement "Lt Bush has not been observed ..." was on an AFFm 77a which was used in lieu of an actual Officer Effectiveness Report (OER), AFFm 77. That's when the stuff hit the propellers. The Personnel headquarters, Air Reserve Personnel Center (ARPC) for Reserves and Air Guards, sent the request for the annual OER to the individual's unit CBPO (Consolidated Base Personnel Office). This was SOP. In other words as far as ARPC concerned, Bush was still assigned to the 111FISq and as ARPC was them what approved PCSs (permanent change of station), Lt Colonel Harris and Lt Colonel Killian just told a wee fib.

Why they did is a mystery. They could have been that stupid, but I doubt it. It is possible that the CBPO Chief, Maj Rufus Martin bull shitted them and they really did believed Bush was legally out of their hair.

Well anyway, when ARPC got that 77a it went ugly early, re an ARPC Fm 204 from MSgt Daniel Harkness "Sirs, please tell us why you're tap dancing."

Shortly thereafter Bush is back at Ellington Plane Patch from wherever he was hiding out going thru the motions recertifying his flight status, ie occasionally riding shot gun in a two seater. He never was reinstated. That's what he did for the rest of his time in the TANG until Poppy got him a slot at Harvah Bidness School and he bailed on a school early out.

He dodged official disciplinary action (1) Poppy was tight with the CinC and most likely the TX gov and (2) if they dropped the book on him, they'd have had to rip a fair share of the officers in the 111th and its command unit, the 147CCTGp.

[Nave]

34. His daddy was a real hero

As much as I dislike Dubya's dad, I have to admit that he was a REAL veteran. Obviously his kids didn't learn too much from him as they all sat out (or in Dubya's case) spaced out the Vietnam War. While I give them a little credit for avoiding Vietnam, these clowns are the very first to criticize American hero John Kerry, who fought with honor, and other real heroes who now speak out against him. Dubya is a coward and the worst presidunce in American history. I am tempted to say that Frances the Talking Mule would do a better job than Dubya.

Now we are faced with chicken-hawks Dubya, Cheney and (thankfully no more) Rummy, who have never seen a day of battle and would have faked bring gay to get out of military service, sending our finest Americans to DIE for nothing.

And you wonder why the democrats thumped the party of Bush!

[4bucksagallon]

35. Not so fast on dada being a hero...........

On September 2, 1944 - the day Bush experienced what he has called "the most dramatic individual moment of my life" - he flew off the San Jacinto in a squadron attack on a Japanese radio installation on Chichi Jima island. While approaching the target, his plane was hit by anti-aircraft fire. What followed is subject to disputed accounts and may never be truly known. Yet, over time, it has become the center of Bush's political legend as the hero-pilot, a commander in chief in whom we trust. According to the intelligence report approved sometime later by the squadron leader (it was oddly undated), Bush's plane was enveloped in "smoke and flames," and "Bush and one other person were seen to bail out... Bush's chute opened and he landed safely in water... The chute of the other person ... who bailed out did not open." The plane crashed into the sea and sank. Both John Delaney and Ted White were reported missing in action, presumed dead. The report added a cautionary note: "Bush has not yet been returned to squadron by rescue sub, so this information is incomplete."

The confidential log of the USS Finback, the sub that picked up Bush, recorded on the day of the incident that at 11:56 a.m. Bush "stated that he failed to see his crew's parachutes and believed they had jumped when plane was still over Chichi Jima, or they had gone down with plane." At 4:20 that afternoon, the Finback picked up another downed pilot, James Beckman, who, according to the log, "stated that it was known that only one male had parachuted from Bush's plane" - namely Bush. The log concluded: "This decided us to discontinue any further search of that area...."


Mierzejewski had been particularly close to Delaney. And Bush seemed to want to answer the agonizing unasked questions: Why didn't he make a water landing? Why was he the only one to jump? Did he panic? "Look," Mierzejewski told me Bush said to him, "I'm sure the two of them in the back were dead. I called them three times and got no answer." (Given the construction of the Avenger, it was impossible for the pilot, shielded by an armor plate, to see the crew; the only communication would have been by radio.)


Seems like he bailed out on HIS MEN TOO. The tradition continues for republicans, but you're right in one respect at least he served.

[Nave]

36. I meant that in a different context

My point that was compared to Dubya his dad was a real hero. Dubya even makes garbage collectors look like heros. Sorry that I did not make my point better.

[TheBaldyMan]

22. check this link out ... fact check on AWOL allegations against GW Bush

I warn you it does not make comfortable reading if you think the sun shines out of Dubya's butt. All the allegations turn out to be supported by authentic documentation and verified eye-witness reports. The bogus memo looks suspiciously like a plant. The media ignored the real stuff and spent hours of airtime and thousands of column inches on the fake memo.

some extracts:

• Bush: I did my duty A Boston Globe report Sept. 8 concluded that Bush "fell well short of meeting his military obligation" because of irregular attendance at Guard drills. The Globe said Bush's superiors "could have disciplined him or ordered him to active duty in 1972, 1973 or 1974. But they did neither."
• Bush:The TANG stopped operating the planes I was trained to fly The Associated Press reported Sept. 8 that newly obtained records show Bush's Texas unit continued operating the type of airplane that Bush was trained to fly until 1974, long after Bush's last flight in April 1972. Bush aides once suggested that a reason he stopped flying and later skipped a flight physical, leading to his official grounding, was that his services weren't needed because the F-102 Delta Dagger planes were being phased out.
• Skipped the queue to avoid the draft The CBS program 60 Minutes aired an interview Sept. 8 with former Texas Lt. Gov. Ben Barnes, who said he used his political influence to get Bush into the Texas Air National Guard in 1968, when the Vietnam war was raging. "I would describe it as preferential treatment," said Barnes, a Democrat who is supporting Kerry. "We had a lot of young men that left and went to Canada in the '60s and fled this country. But those that could get in the Reserves, or those that could get in the National Guard -- chances are they would not have to go to Vietnam. Barnes received $10Ms in no-bid contracts to run the state lottery from the State of Texas while the Bush family was in charge

These are just a few of the instances originally raised by an investigative reporter Greg Palast. The story was spiked in the States until CBS decided to run it a couple of years after it entered the public domain. If you Google "Bush AWOL" you come up with enough links. It is strange how a guy that was in the Guard for all those years couldn't come up with a solid paper trail to prove where he had served and when he had served. But the genuine stuff that did turn up and was released show that he didn't meet his committment.

one link that mentions it is http://www.factcheck.org/article254.html">factcheck.org

This is an investigation on a related report but does include a lot of background detail on the genuine DoD documents tracked down.

[4bucksagallon]

26. I joined in early 1969 and I can remember no recruiting from either the guards or reserves.........

all the other branches were actively recruiting. Does anyone have any other recollection that I am missing. There was a reason they called it the champagne unit in the TANG, of course my father was not a congressman that could pull the strings that Shrubs papa did.

[sarge43]

31. Pilots weren't removed from flight status because their aircraft

was being phased out. They were retrained and requalified on the new one. Bush had plenty of time left on his service commitment to retrain. Plus it begs the question, if that had been the procedure, why wasn't every pilot in his squadron grounded?

[sarge43]

30. OK, I'll hand wave the 'memos' and even the AWOL

However, maybe you can explain why a commissioned officer failed to obey a legal order (a regulation has the same legal authority as a verbal or written order) and failed to maintain qualifications to perform assigned duties. In short, why didn't he take his mandatory annual flight physical in June 1972?

The proof is Aeronautical Order 87, DAAF-NGB, 19 Sep 72, para 6. My copy of this order came directly from the National Personnel Records Center. If you want, I'll quote paragraph 6 for you.
Here's part of it: "Reason for Suspension: Failure to accomplish annual medical examination."

By the way, the annual flight physical isn't just an obscure military twitch; it's federal law.

[sarge43]

25. OK

The memos are fake and they have Rove's finger prints all over them. They could have been analogues of real ones Killian wrote. (If he didn't CYA himself, he was dumber than that box of rocks.) But they themselves weren't the real deal.

And he wasn't in any legal sense AWOL. I'd bet the next retirement check his superiors knew where he was and what he was doing because most likely they were told to hide him somewhere because ...

he failed to take his annual flight physical and there were no follow up actions. There is no record of a board of inquiry, followed by a reclassification board or discharge. For the remainder of his service{sic}, he was not qualified in any way in any AFSC. Now my fellow vets, could any one of us have gone for more than year unqualified to perform duty in our MOS or AFSC? You are either in training or qualified.

This is the elephant in the orderly room, not those fake memos or the 'AWOL' charge. This is the one no one has questioned. This is why I threw up in my mouth when he strutted across the deck of USS Lincoln in that flight suit. He dishonored the names and memories of many good people did not shirk their duty.

[BOSSHOG]

27. And on top of

the heep of evidence of his desertion, the man is morally bankrupt and such an action is right up his "conservative" alley. You have to be a real dunderhead not to make Captain (O-3) as an Officer. But his "service" did meet his goals, he stayed out of Nam, as did rove and cheney and every other maggot in his administration as well as those who hide behind microphones.

[sarge43]

29. Yup

Time to the railroad tracks was o/a three years. I doubt his record went to the promotion board and if it did, it got thrown on the loser pile.

The one report card of his I saw was mmmm not so good. The checks were all firewall niners, but the writeup (and you live or die on the writeup) was less than enthusiastic.

His military service{sic} defines him.

[Major Hogwash]

40. You tell a lie, I'll get a poll, honey (honey)

You tell a lie, now I'll get a poll, babe (babe)
You tell a lie, I'll get a poll,
Bush's record went down a rabbit hole
Honey, oh babe, yes, he lied

Gimme your left, your right, your left
Gimme your left, your right, your left

Bush lost his wings, he can't fly, honey (honey)
Bush lost his wings, now he can't fly, babe (babe)
Bush lost his wings, he can't fly,
Now Bush orders men to go and die
Honey, oh babe, yes, he lied

Gimme your left, your right, your left
Gimme your left, your right, your left

Bush did coke, they call it crack, honey (honey)
Bush did coke, now they call it crack, babe (babe)
Bush did coke, they call it crack
Now Bush orders men to die in Iraq
Honey, oh babe, yes, he lied

Gimme your left, your right, your left
Gimme your left, your right, your left

[Joey Liberal]

42. Great cadence! LOL! n/t

[BikeWriter]

43. Ha ha ha ha! Buck Fush!

[Joey Liberal]

41. I can't wear them with Bush in charge

Mine are all peacetime medals anyway:)...................