How Would You Answer this false Representation of the old religions in GD

[Dragonfli]

"There never was a gentle, loving, peaceful culture in ancient Europe that we would be able to draw some sort of romantic, bucolic natural spirituality.

It was turtles, blood, spit, mud, and brutality all the way in."

So far, folks seem to agree old european as well as native american faith are barbaric.
I don't have much patience with this sort of bashing, perhaps some of you have mastered the ability to calmly speak truth to such prejudece..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4548463&mesg_id=4548463

[silverweb]

1. I'm sorry no one else has answered you so far.

I wouldn't bother replying at all to people like those you're pointing out.

As in any difference of opinion regarding religion and matters of belief, people are generally pretty stuck in their own mindset. Discussion goes nowhere, "debate" turns into argument, and nastiness ensues.

This is just my opinion, of course. If you enjoy a vigorous argument, you might feel differently.

I'm not one of those who like argument, though, so for my blood pressure and serenity's sake, I keep my own counsel and stay far away from people who express such prejudice.

[Dragonfli]

2. Wise Words

I shall remember them next time I read such things.
That thread has brought me nothing but negative energy.

Thank you for reminding me of what I once would have known simply from listening to my intuition.

[silverweb]

3. I don't know about wise, but definitely pragmatic.

In my experience, the best choice has invariably been staying away from negative energy and listening closely to my deepest intuitions rather than extraneous noise, however compelling.

:hug:

[yellerpup]

4. I thought you acquitted yourself well in the other thread.

We are always seeking answers, and those who are open are always flowing into new forms. I think that is healthy, the only true constant is change. In that the conquerors are always the ones who get to write history, we can never truly know what went before. Anyone who claims to know is an ass. We can certainly imagine and empathize based on what has been passed down. Personally, I prefer to think the best of people. If the Natives of this continent had no code of ethics they could have allowed the first Europeans to starve and that would have been the most benign way of ridding strangers. It seems to me that in the harshest conditions the most generous codes of hospitality are created. Interesting thread, Dragonfli. We all struggle to understand.

[JNelson6563]

5. The same way one should answer any statement

If you disagree with it then post some facts to counter it.

Julie

[Dervill Crow]

6. There's no denying much of the old religions were brutal.

They are nature based, and nature is brutal. There is a lot of beauty, too, though, and there's a balance of dark and light. Hecate, the Morrigan, Kali -- there's nothing fluffy about those goddesses any more than the god of Abraham is all about love. From fluffbunny pagans to happy clappy christians, they all need to research their roots and realize that the truth encompasses the middle ground between sweetness/light and mindless brutality.

[Jackpine Radical]

7. Interesting. I don't think brutality has as much to do with religion as with

social structure and external pressures. The wars conducted by the American Indians in pre-Columbian times were as nothing compared to the wars people have fought against each other once agriculture became widespread. I think the major reason was that farming provided societies with excess resources that they could use to support armies, priesthoods, and other mischief-making groups. The Indians (leaving the agriculturalists from Peru to Mexico out of the discussion) were too busy trying to feed and shelter themselves to get very serious about warfare, so they mostly conducted small raids on each other. The Eskimos, existing perpetually on the ecological edge, apparently didn't even have the concept of war until they ran into more hostile non-Eskimo groups.

I have always thought it interesting that Christian "civilization," which has known Crusades, inquisitions, heretic- and witch-burnings, death camps, the Dresden and Tokyo fire-bombings, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and innumerable similar events and quaint customs, should have the gall to point their fingers at non-Christian cultures on the issue of cruelty.

[winyanstaz]

8. If you really want to know about Native Americans..why don't you ask them....

instead of listening to what those that came and took everything say?
Just so you know, most tribes have a legend of a time that the tribes did not fight each other.
They came together every year in special places in a large circle which was called the Sacred Hoop. All people and all tribes had their own special place and direction in the Sacred Hoop and there was trading and games and wives were sought after and there were many happy times for a long long time.
All people knew they were related and one family. They lived in harmony with each other and with all living things and remembered their Sky Father and Earth Mother. They knew all the earth was Sacred. All white animals/birds/etc were known to be messengers of The Great Spirit and were considered Sacred as well.
Life was not taken even for food without regret for having to do so to survive. Prayers were made before a hunt and before gathering plants to give the plants the opportunity to withdraw their consciousness from the parts taken.
The spirit of the animals and plants were thanked and we did not take everything we saw. It was always known then that you do not harvest every plant, only about 1 in 10 so that there will be more another day.
The elders were held in the highest honor for their wisdom because you simply did not live to be old unless you had some wisdom. Without the wisdom of the Elders, a people could not survive long. Children were precious and the whole tribe watched out for them. Women were not abused and it was the women's circles that had the final say (but only after everyone got to put in their own opinion) because the people knew that the men's blood would run hot but that the women would think of the welfare of the tribe as a whole.
The gay were also held in honor because they were concidered to be the bridge between the sexes and one went to them for council when you had problems between a man and a woman. If a man knew how to talk to a women he wouldnt need council and the same with a woman.
True warriors in those days took care of the weak and the helpless FIRST and they did not hunt power in the way the world thinks of power. They hunted Spiritual Power which is the power to face the unknown and to stand in the presence of The Creator with a clear heart and with no shame.
But later there came to be disagreements and greed and then the Sacred Hoop was broken and then there were wars.
Just so you know, all the people of the world were said to have stood in this Sacred Circle of life. The symbols of this is still with us to this day in the four directions symbol and is also found in the teachings of the Medicine Wheel.
To this day many of the people grieve for the Breaking of the Sacred Hoop and work to try to mend the Sacred Hoop once again.

[foreigncorrespondent]

9. It is typical of very narrow minded idiots!

They have been raised to believe the Bible and their faith is the true faith, and so they just can't accept any other faith. Even the oldest faith in the world of Paganism.

They always come back with "if you are Pagan then you must be a Witch" bullshit.

I live in a country town in Victoria/Australia. Last year the first Mystical store opened its doors in this little community of narrow minded idiots. One day I was in this store standing with the owner and my partner, just chatting away, and idiots walked past and yelled out "Fucking Witches." I looked at the owner and she said, she gets that at least ten times a day. Now? Her shop is doing extremely well, because those narrow minded idiots have finally realized, it isn't all about Witchcraft and more about being at one with nature. And that is exactly what I do tell anyone who has a small enough brain to piss me off about my religion in the first place.