There's a big discussion of angels/God/religion going on in GD right now...

[ihavenobias]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3367953&mesg_id=3367953

Just figured it should be posted here as well.

[WhollyHeretic]

1. Every time an atheist expresses exasperation we get accused of trying to control

people and force everyone to think as we do. We're not the ones forcing things on others at every turn.

There is also some pretty funny woo sprinkled in that thread.

[ihavenobias]

2. Yeah

You may have noticed I got into some back and forth myself in that thread. I really resent the idea that we have to treat religious beliefs uncritically and that they are somehow off limits to criticism.

IMO, they are like any other belief and open to question (as I explained in more detail in the thread).

[MedleyMisty]

7. I think that's projection

Humans project an awful lot. Like my mother told me - when people talk about other people they're really talking about themselves.

Ever notice how people who know that they're oppressors will rationalize continuing to oppress by saying that if they stopped the oppressed group would turn right around and do the same thing to them?

They know that they can't control you and force you to conform to their belief system and your refusal to believe in it makes them question it themselves. That makes them rather uncomfortable and doubtful of their beliefs. And I can't really empathize emotionally because I have never built my idea of who I am around some external belief system (actually to tell the truth I can't conceive of believing in something that isn't real and can't relate to or identify with that at all - I read about the good positive stuff that people feel in relation to religion and I do feel that; it's just that I can't imagine those feelings being connected to some mythical imaginary thing. They're grounded in reality for me.), but I think I get it intellectually because I see the pattern over and over - some people, when their world view is shaken, will think about it for a whle and come up with a new world view built on sturdier ground. The majority batten down the hatches and cling to their system with all their might and lash out against those who they perceive as threatening it.

Thus, if you don't agree with them and validate their world view, you are attacking them and trying to control them. At that point you're not even a real person to them - I think a lot of humans don't see other humans as real. We are all just shadow actors on their internal mental stage and they interpret our actions only as they think that our actions relate to themselves.

It's not just religion, of course - you see that pattern everywhere. I think it's the source of all the posts about "Oh no, DU thinks I am the devil because I (insert stereotypical vice here)." Although I can't empathize with needing other people to validate your way of life, that is apparently how the majority of humans work. And when you don't validate it (as in agreeing with them and making the same choices that they do and living your life the way they live theirs) they turn it outward and say that you're the problem - if you don't participate, then you obviously hate.

The idea that other people make their own decisions and choices for their own internal reasons just doesn't come into their minds, I think - like I said, other people aren't real to them.

A final real-life example to demonstrate: on another board someone described how they thought that the sole reason total strangers would talk on their cell phones as they passed by was to remind the poster that they didn't have friends - they took the feeling of wishing that they had friends to call and talk to on a cell phone and totally externalized it and blamed their loneliness on the strangers who probably didn't even see them or notice them at all.

I think it's the same thing happening on the religious threads here - if I do try my best to imagine believing in some mythical dude in the sky who takes care of us, I think that the current state of the world and the scientific knowledge that humans have accumulated in the last century would shake that belief and make me not so certain about it. And a lot of people take that uncertainty and externalize it and blame it on the posts of atheists who aren't actually thinking about them at all.

Well, I've got to go to work now - I hope I got a bit of my thoughts across but I don't think I did it very well.

[trotsky]

8. That's a very interesting point.

I think you may have something there.

[pink-o]

9. My favourite is the idiot who called Atheists the "New Fundamentalists"

...What a stupid comparison! Atheists and Aggies are the ANTI-fundies, we're the ones who AREN'T forcing mythology on others!

Hector-Projector is at it again!

[Rob H.]

3. I guess that thread means that I can finally own up to my belief in werewolves

After all, even though other people might not have seen them and I can't present evidence that they actually exist, I can feel the influence of werewolves in my day-to-day life so based solely on my personal experience, werewolves exist. Hooray for lycanthropy! Hip-hip-barooooo! :sarcasm:

On a more serious note, I can't help being reminded of Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

[uberllama42]

5. I take your point,

but the thing about werewolves (and other lycanthropes, to be fair) is that they are much easier to nail down than angels. There is a pretty solid definition of 'werewolf'- it is someone who occasionally turns into a wolf or a human-wolf hybrid. An angel can be much less obtrusive- it might be a 'benevolent force,' which IIRC was a term used in that thread. Lycanthropy is almost a medical condition. There are all sorts of nebulous little metaphysical spaces you can jimmy angels into if you're creative.

And one thing about believers- they can be very creative if given the chance.

[uberllama42]

4. Somebody moved it to R/T

But I want to complement your work in the threat. It's choice.

[old mark]

6. Thanks, I tried to read that thread,

but I could not.
I can't bear "christian intellectuals"-there's an oxymoron for ya- and I dislike being condecensed to.

I was amazed and saddened when I started college and found so many "believers" there among supposedly intelligent young people. That was nearly 45 years ago and I still remember the sinking feeling.

I used to try to respect the beliefs of others, but found that to be pointless and frustrating-they have no respect for any other beliefs but their own.
I'll try again in a few weeks when it's done, maybe just read the end.

mark