"If you had to choose between reason and faith, which would you discard?"

[BurtWorm]

A truly astonishing exchange on PZ Myers's Pharyngula.org:



http://pharyngula.org/index/weblog/comments/alien_pod_person_commenting/


"Robert, if your reason and faith come into conflict, which will you choose to discard?" Virge

Reason every time, only a fool wouldn't. Reason is a tool; faith is life- now you tell me what's more valuable. Reason itself tells one to dispense with reason here. You completely disregarded my point about salvation being offered to a PERSON, not just his intellect. Think about it: why would God want to save only a part of one? You hate "emotional appeals" only because, like I said, you are an emotionally retarded reason worshiper, as are all atheists and God-haters. (And if you don't fall into one of those categories be man enough to describe your "religious experience and background." I've been forthright with you.) Moreover, you have yet to force the above choice upon me (and won't be doing it anytime soon). I resolved the apparent contradictions in my account. Of course, having missed or disregarded my point about the inadequacy of reason, you raised a new set of objections, all, I should add, laced with spite. But, venom aside, you are petering out: no serious thinker holds it against God for not doing the logically impossible, which is what creating a saved person would be. Salvation is something that is achieved OVER TIME, like character. The same thing may be said against your suggestion that “(a person’s) sinful inclinations should be purged (by God) at conception.” You can’t save what hasn’t been jeopardized any more than you can purge what does not exist. As for your denial of providence, you yourself don't even believe it. You would rather have not had a chance to be saved? Yeah right.

[rexcat]

1. I already discarded faith a long time ago...

I would take reason over superstition any day!

[dwckabal]

2. WOW!

"emotionally retarded reason worshiper"

Someone has some anger issues that need to be resolved!

[Zenlitened]

3. Creating a saved person would be "logically impossible"...

... that's a gem!

Also interesting to see him throw out the notion of Original Sin so blithely.

Like all religionists, he believes what he chooses to believe -- then insists that everyone else go along with it. :eyes:

[trotsky]

8. It's a super-duper easy way out of any tricky spot.

Any logical conundrum resulting from your set of god beliefs can be hand-waved away! "Well, since that's logically impossible for my god, then your objection is unfounded."

I've seen it right here on DU.

[LSU_Subversive]

4. what does "faith is life" mean?

what sort of semantic manipulation explains that one?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

6. It means we're all zombies, I guess. Or androids. (nt)

[phantom power]

13. "explain" is a concept based on logic. Doesn't apply to this guy.

[BiggJawn]

5. No choice.

I have no "faith", only reason and a belief in Reality.

As for being "Saved", I've always maitained that I'm not lost.

[CarbonDate]

7. Faith is earned.

I have faith that the sun will rise in the east tomorrow morning. Should the sun rise in the west one of these days, I will no longer have faith in that fact.

What religionists describe isn't faith, it's willful self-delusion.

[YankeyMCC]

10. Well said

I have "faith" in certain people who I know I can rely on for various things - "good advice" "techical help" "a fun time" etc

I have faith in myself that I can accomplish things I set out to do if I go about it logically and have the information I need etc...

I Don't have wishful thinking or delusions. At least I try not to. ;)

[salvorhardin]

17. Wishful thinking is OK -- I think

The problems come in when we confuse our wishful thinking for reality -- then we have delusions.

[Modem Butterfly]

9. Once you toss reason into the trash, nothing is "logically impossible"

[JNelson6563]

11. Lots of words, n'ary a fact

Totally emotion based, borderline incoherent aggression.

I'm always amused by the religious who feel if they write enough words somehow their position/argument will improve. Also, they seem to be pretty confident that attempting to belittle the person with a different view helps them "win".

For those who are supposedly "saved" (apparently from the wrath of an all-loving god {???}), their place in paradise for their immortal life assured, they sure are hateful creatures, aren't they?

At least their incredible lameness can make for entertaining reading, so there's at least that consolation.

Julie

[trotsky]

12. Great observations.

We've had a few like that right here on DU. They're tombstoned now, but they exhibited the same characteristics.

[onager]

14. I liked all the "observations" by the Twue Bewievers

Like that one asshat who opined that people who have reason, but not faith, are "cold, uncaring" and a few more choice words.

His message was just a little too long to fit on a bumper sticker, but not by much. And bumper stickers seemed to be where most of the "philosophy" in that thread came from.

OTOH, Julie, upthread, made a good point about how some of these people try to "win" their arguments by sheer, eye-glazing verbosity.

[Beetwasher]

15. LOL! Check Out This Comment On That Thread!!! LOL!

"I used to be neutral and quietly scornful of believers in the Godthing. Then I went through a brief period of sympathy when I realized their conditioning would forever bar them from seeing he whole of the world and in many cases would keep them at maybe a 50% level of overall functioning. Now, however, I'm just sick in tired of them. In the same way a nasty cur can't be held accountable for its meanness from a moral standpoint but still needs a kick in the face when it gets in my way, the fact that fundamentalists are victims of programming doesn't make them any less despicable or in need of bunting aside when they yammer like Mr. Allen or persist in trying to uproot society. Religious indoctrination is, in effect, a form of child abuse and I will never trust any parents who indoctrinate their kids with the religion byrus any more than I would if they started bringing their offsrping to XXXX shows and wankhouses beginning at age 2 or 3."

:rofl:

[onager]

16. That...that...porn-basher!

Good thing he/she's not a REAL atheist!

Adding my own...

:rofl:

Thanks for bringing it over here!

[salvorhardin]

18. ROFL!

Truly this man has never experienced the religious epiphany brought on by a nice plate of spaghetti and meatballs! :-)

[BlueEyedSon]

19. Gosh, look at all the REASONING that went into that argument!

:rofl: