BSG: Epiphanies (01-21-26)

[lazarus]

I thought episode threads would be good for this. In these threads, can we all agree that once it's aired on the East Coast, it's no longer a spoiler? I do realise that it's been aired in the UK already, so spoilers are out there, but the surprises are so much fun!

So, Adama decides not to abort Sharon's baby, because they can use the baby to save Roslin. Once more, humans are simply using Cylons without their permission, exploiting them. Hmm.

I thought the Cylon sympathisers, however, were ludicrous. The entire human race is down to @50k, and you want to make peace with the group that just wiped out 12 planets? Like they'll come to terms. It's more reasonable once we discover Gina's in charge; Humlons are good at manipulating.

Here's a question I've had for some time: We know that Centurions aren't sentient, don't have souls or consciousnesses that are downloaded into new bodies (podcast info). Humlons (human form Cylons, fully sentient, etc.) were developed after the war, which is why they were such a surprise.

Is there another type of Cylon out there we don't know about, a sentient but mostly mechanical being? The Cylon God, perhaps?

And we need more Callie and the Chief and the rest of the knuckledraggers. Love those guys.

Also, if the Humlons are sentient, and virtually all biological, how are they not worthy of the respect we give an enemy? The torture scenes, the attempted rape of Boomer, the Abu Ghraib of Pegasus, all bring this question up. They react emotionally. Isn't that a key sign of sentience?

Bah, I'm rambling.

BTW, podcasts are up at the site. Ron Moore giving essentially DVD commentary. I downloaded it onto my daughter's iPod Nano and listened while re-watching the latest episode, it's just like having a DVD!

[IndianaGreen]

1. The Cylons are the real humans

They are monotheistic, and as all monotheistic religions, the destroy the pagans and their temples. In some ways it reminds me of Planet of the Apes, a film in which the apes were the humans, and the humans were the animals.

Nothing has been said of Earth during this season. I wonder if that plot line will go away, replaced by one in which they return to Caprica.

[Ready4Change]

2. I'd say West Coast airing complete before releasing spoilers.

When it's done airing on the East Coast there's still over half the US waiting for it to start.

I'm willing to consider that, no matter how responsive Cyclons seem, even the "Humlons" may still be non-sentients. I see no reason that a system cannot be constructed that would react in ways which can convince a human that it is sentient, while still not obtining sentience itself.

A highly advanced system might determine that its odds of survival might improve if it can convince humans of it's sentience. Doesn't matter if it IS sentient or not. Just whether it can convince a human.

It may determine that humans grasp of reality is tenuous. By making a human question it's own humanity, it may cause the human to judge a cyclons or "humlons" potential humanity in a differnt, more favorable, light.

Still, all calculation. No sentience required.

Humans react to expression of emotion. By this they can be manipulated. Thus, creating a convincing array of emotional reactions is desirable. No need t ACTUALLY, create emotions. In fact, many good reasons not to. Just convincing simulated emotions are needed.

I think the Cyclons are curious about self evolved biologicals. They have established control of a small corner of space, removed humans from competition. But what else might they encounter out there? They have nothing to go on except humans. What can they do? What are their limits? in what ways can they be manipulated and controlled? All these lessons may serve cylons well should they encounter other species, and experimenting on 45,000 subjects is, perhaps, rapidly becoming a minor portion of their growing power.

In other words, I think the human fleets are laboratory rats to the cylons.

[Beetwasher]

3. Well, I Think You've Hit Upon The Main Themes

and philosophical conundrums and pretty much the crux of the show. Have the machines BECOME sentient? Have they become more than the mere sum of their parts? I think they have, and that's WHY we have Boomer for instance doing what she does, acting in her own self interest, against the Cylons and helping the humans.

I think what we're going to find out is that the Cylons' god is a powerful, central AI. The AI became conscious at some point in the past, and decided to pass that consciousness on by creating the Humlons, however, once the Humlons became conscious, they ALSO became LESS controllable and MORE unpredictable and able to defy god's will (i.e. Boomer) and were driven by the emotions that come with consciousness (i.e.love).

[ContraBass Black]

4. Something about Roslyn disturbs me.

She's changed sharply and severely, and I don't like the new better than old. It was shocking enough when she was recommending assassinations from her bed, but after the healing, even though she was in a wheelchair, she had gone from compassion and temperance to ruthlessness. On her near-deathbed, she claimed that she would answer to no one. Now that she is reentering the service with that mindset and has a personal relationship with Adama, she is unchecked executive power, and perhaps as dangerous as the former Admiral.


I thought the big save was weak. I was hoping for something that would drop my jaw and make me scream, "No way!" instead of make me roll my eyes and say, "Of course."

I was almost starting to like Baltar until he went all child-man and gave the nuke to the resistance. Idiot. I really thought he was going to grow up this time, too.

How is Adama so good at choking people?

[Beetwasher]

5. Speaking of Roslyn's " BigSave", Will There Be Other "Effects"??

She's now got Cylon tainted blood running through her veins...Think about it...

[Ready4Change]

6. Lot of eye contact between her and cylon affected folk.

On recovering she stared at Baltar for a good while, then at Sharon. Perhaps all 3 are involved with inner demons of one sort or another?

[Beetwasher]

7. And She Now KNOWS Baltar KNEW A Cylon Very Well

She had visions, or memories of seeing Baltar w/ #6 and yet did not say anything about it (yet).

[nickinSTL]

8. Cylon sympathisers were ludicrous?

Well, you might think so, but I'd damn near guarantee you that there would be those in such a situation that would want peace at ANY cost.

It's inevitable, I think.

Roslyn's interesting. The 'cure' for the cancer seemed a bit...fortunate... but, I can overlook that.

She does seem to have become ruthless. I absolutely think that assassinating Admiral Kaine was necessary...but I'm wondering if this ruthlessness she seems to have suddenly discovered will go too far.

Baltar just swings from one extreme to another, it seems. On the one hand, he seems to finally be standing up for what's right (from a human standpoint), and then, with one letter from the President that tells him he needs to be more compassionate - that completely disintegrates and he sends a nuke to a cylon working with the anti-military movement.

[Beetwasher]

9. Baltar IS Crazy

You have to remember that, he's nuts, so violent mood swings would certainly be understandable and totally in character...I'd say he gave the bomb on total impulse and will probably regret it and obsess over it later...

I agree w/ you about the sympathizers. 50k is a large enough population so that you would almost definitely have a group like that in there, ESPECIALLY if Cylon infiltrators got it going and manipulated it.

[lazarus]

10. I can see it

with Six/Gina running things.

But I didn't mean the sympathisers were ludicrous from a plotting standpoint; I agree there would be sympathisers in any group of that size. I meant they were ludicrous from the standpoint of their reality.

[ContraBass Black]

11. Am I the only one who couldn't help saying "Bush!" aloud when

Presidents past and present said, "I don't have to explain myself?"

[NewJeffCT]

12. I think they wanted that parellel

with Bush...

[ContraBass Black]

13. Which reinforces the extreme danger of the new Roslyn.

If she starts ordering dangerous and unjustified military capaigns...

[NewJeffCT]

14. well, she did order that Cylon to be "spaced"

which isn't exactly a progressive action.