Carnivale - Demascus,NE

[drdon326]

Justin and Iris placate Bishop McNaughton with a hearty breakfast

Ben follows his visions to a seedy hotel with Stroud hot on his tail;

Sabina airs her dirty laundry with Lila;

Libby and Rita Sue do some self-reflection; Iris displays her strength to Norman; the troupe worries about Sofie; Libby gives Jones special treatment;

and Samson is distracted while Management tries to destroy a gift from Ben.

http://www.hbo.com/carnivale/?ntrack_para1=leftnav_category0_show1

[liberalnurse]

1. I'm stuck at work.....

crazy here tonight.....I have been here since 8:00 am.

I'll have to catch the 2:00 am show. Go ahead and chat........spill the beans...I'm cool with it...actually, I'd appreciate it....

I will try and pop in if things settle down.......

[drdon326]

3. No bs....,

you have GOT to see it yourself.

[liberalnurse]

21. You were right!

No one could explain the impact of this Episode. Whoooooo so action packed and informative. Lines are being drawn in the sand.

[drdon326]

2. The.Best.Carnivale.Episode.Ever.

wow

[liberalnurse]

4. Oh God.....

are you guys teasing me???? I'm going nutz!!!!!!! I should of been out of here at 6pm!!!!!!! For those who know "where I work"...it is almost like Carnivale'.......


I have a few charts left....I got to hurry!

[NashVegas]

5. Oh, Jeez *teasers*

I guess we should have seen at least half of this particular showdown.

We know what Justin needs to do with Scudder, so it makes sense. Can't wait to see what happens next between Ben & Scudder, it's gonna be real, real interesting.

Jonesy - you DOG, you!

[soleft]

6. So are we allowed to discuss the episode - it was HUGE

[NashVegas]

7. Hell Yeah

Favorite lines:

"You like pork?"
"Bad day to lose a maid."

[HeeBGBz]

8. Did tonights show end 10 minutes early?

It did here. I thought that was odd. The screen froze when Libby and Rita Sue began dancing.

[Kire]

9. a lot of the premium channel series have eps that end at different times

I've seen it on "The Wire", "The Sopranos", "Deadwood", "Queer as Folk", "Out of Order" and "Six Feet Under".

I sometimes think it's a sign that they are "special episodes".

[Mabus]

26. because its premium

they don't have to fit the script around commercial times to make the show fit the one hour time slot. I think it was David Chase who said it was nice not having to try to write the story line to fit the time slot. I like it. Sometimes I need those early enders so I can take the pups outside or grab a snack.

[lazarus]

10. It ended early

but after that. Significantly after that.

[liberalnurse]

14. I think it was just another way the

writers have fun with us....Keep us thinking....like we aren't already! The entire series throws in the unpredictable, the unexpected..... :smoke:

[lazarus]

11. Two major questions answered

If not more.

management is Justin's father.

Management is the Usher, not Scudder. Notice the blue blood?

So was Management looking to kill Justin, to prevent his killing Management and taking over as Usher?

And if Justin is Usher, rather than the CoD, does that mean Sophie really is the CoD? Or someone else entirely (Iris, for example)?

[drdon326]

12. Justin is the CoD......

I THINK.....

What a weird show.

[soleft]

18. What is CoD

[lazarus]

19. Child of Darkness

vs the Child of Light (CoL).

[soleft]

23. So what will Ben and Sophies child be?

[lazarus]

28. Is she pregnant?

That's pure speculation to date.

[soleft]

33. Well, an orgasm accompanied by thunder and rain in a drought?

Sounds like conception to me.

[lazarus]

35. I dunno

Pretty much all my orgasms are accompanied by major meteorological events.

:P

[soleft]

42. LOL!!

[liberalnurse]

41. Let me say this much....

I have had sex a few times in my day......actually some really, really great sex and never was there ever Thunder with a rain storm when the buttons got pushed......

Yea, she's knocked......and with a Prophet of the next generation.

[NashVegas]

17. I Think Management Tricked Ben Into ...

Killing him (Management). If Justin needs to kill Scudder to bleed blue, it makes sense Ben might have needed to do the same to Belyekov and fully come into his powers.

[liberalnurse]

24. Excellent point.

We already knew that Justin has to kill Scudder to be the Usher, thus Ben to take Management's life for what ever purpose makes sense. Not to be the Usher of Destruction as there can only be one.... and that is to be Justin's motive. I think the whole thing with Management's mission evolves around preventing the Usher from coming into power. He just got "shocked" by the fact it is his own son.

There has not ever been an Usher yet.....that is the potiential future for world destruction, the warning signal....all these historical Avatars have been able to stall this occurance over the centuries....until now.....The visions of the Usher represent the impending possible outcome is aproaching reality if not stopped.

I still think Justin is Sophie's daddy.

[dr.strangelove]

20. I loved the blue blood.

Justin is clearly the Usher now. I want to see what happens to him now. I wonder if he will start to bleed blue in the "real world" now.

What the hell was up with all the sex in this episode. I could not believe that Jonesy went ot the "special place."

On a side note. I just saw "Ray" and the actor who places Lotz played Ray Charles's doctor. I nearly fell out of my chair. That man is a good actor.

Was management the one that raped Appie, probably not since we saw the rapists arms and legs. That would have been after the war. Who the hell is Sophie's dad? There is still someone else out there.

[liberalnurse]

27. Justin needs to kill Scudder

to become the Usher.......Once that happens, then the world destruction begins. Management, a COL, I believe transferred his powers over to Ben as noted when the lights at the carnival came back on....thus giving Ben the ultimate power to defeat Justin before he would kill Scudder.

We do not want Justin to kill Scudder.

[drdon326]

13. How come as Ben was 'fixing' HS's face.....

EVERYONE was getting sick including justin,stroud and even the townfolk ??

annnnnnnd......libby gave Jones are reeeeeeal special gift there...
ohhhhh boy.

[HeeBGBz]

15. Whenever Ben uses his powers, something dies or gets sick

He was told that long ago.

What is CoD? I missed that somewhere.

[liberalnurse]

16. I think Scudder damaged his face to evoke

Ben to heal him.....Ben is still being " trained" by both Management and Scudder. I don't quite buy the notion Management did not know that Alexi and Catrina were alive. Scudder has always been able to interface with Ben from a distance and through dreams/visions thus Management could sense them too.

I think Scudder and Management will collaborate with Ben. Scudder has bowed out of the mission essentially but remains a player because he is an Avatar creature. Scudder, via free-will, has chosen to be good but had all the makings of being evil. Management was and may still be good but he never lost the drive of his mission wherein it has tilted and twisted into being obsessive and hints of evil; it has been all consuming to Management...not Scudder. Management will do what he must because it has always been his duty, for the greater good. He just is having a very difficult time with his son being the Preacher. He will get over it.

Lets remember, Justin does not have any Avatars showing him the way....Ben does. Justin is acting on his own, out of his own free will he behaves "naturally" and is quite powerful. He continues to hang on to the possibility that he is doing a mission as a chosen one... like "God's Choice" or something, yet he has struggled with the knowledge that he is a demon. Remember the scene with Norman's view of his worst evil? Yea, saving Justin. Denial and free will play a big part here...He rationalizes his behavior to himself via being a minister of the flock, building his Canaan. He is extremely strong and compelled.

Now, I just found this on the HBO Forum for Carnivale"....

snip>

> I just spoke to creator Daniel Knauf at the Carnivale
> chat site! He spilled the beans on the whole Usher,
> avatar deal!
>
> There is only ONE Usher he said. There has NEVER
> been an Usher before. The Usher is a kind of avatar
> but NOT all avatars become Ushers. Scudder couldn't
> have been the Usher -- there never was one until
> JUSTIN! The Usher has been mentioned in 1,000 books
> and has 1,000 names, but has never existed until BJ.
> Sorry, folks. BJ is the one and only Usher to be.

[Mabus]

25. Irina/Iris is Justin's helper/teacher/guide

and both Justin and Irina/Iris are avatars. Avatars are reincarnations of some sort of deity (term originally referred to Hindu deities).

From Iris' "bio":
Though her brother had long since forgotten about his strange powers, she alone kept his secret, fervently praying for the day when the Lord would make His wishes known. With the onset of Justin's visions, she takes action, ruthlessly pursuing what she sees as her brother's divine destiny. Intensely loyal, fiercely protective, she sees her station in life as one of service and devotion to Justin. http://www.hbo.com/carnivale/cast/character/iris_crowe.shtml

[drdon326]

22. Summary....from hbo

Brother Justin is fitted for new suit, with Iris assisting. In a mirror, Justin catches the image of the Colossus Ferris wheel. Iris points out that there is an open seam in Justin's trousers. "That's how we fit a corpse," the tailor replies. "It's a funeral suit." The room darkens, and Iris's face is now a death mask; reaching down, she picks up a dagger and plunges it into Justin's crotch...

Justin wakes up from the dream shouting. Calming down, he notices the ambulance that pulls away from the house just as Bishop McNaughton arrives. "Our new maid," Iris tells the Bishop. "Bad case of nerves."

Over breakfast, McNaughton explains the reason for his visit. Members of the supervisory committee are disturbed by Justin's ideology and would like him to submit his radio sermons to them in advance. After a long moment, Justin agrees that it's a splendid idea.

Up in his room, Norman Balthus summons all of his will to make it out to the Bishop but collapses on the floor. Iris helps him back into bed, explaining that Justin is too busy to worry about the two of them, but that she'll "do anything not to be left behind."

Far away, on the road to Damascus, Ben eyes a Tarot card on the seat next to him: Le Lune, the moon. Entering town, he begins seeing the vision of the man with the shredded face, screaming. Then, Scudder appears, in evening clothes and slips into a slaughterhouse. Although Ben can find no trace of him, through a crack in the door he sees two letters from a sign: HS. Opening the door, he sees that the sign promotes the Hotel Astoria.

At the Carnivale, Jones is upset by the departure of Sofie, and the troupers debate how she will live outside. Libby and Rita Sue continue to snipe at each other. Pinning up the laundry, Sabina describes married life with Samson and informs her that "not everything on him is small."

The desk clerk tells Ben that Henry Scudder used to live at the Hotel Astoria, but that he snuck out owing eight weeks' rent. "A freak," is the man's assessment. "Nothing but a freak." Without a better idea, Ben decides to look at Scudder's old room and finds three shopworn prostitutes there. "Buyin' or lookin'," one asks lazily, but Ben's vision is now overwhelming him. He sees a man with rubber gloves stick his face in hydrochloric acid several times. Then screaming in pain, the man douses his face with vinegar.

Recognizing the man, Ben turns to the door and suddenly is face-to-face with Varlyn Stroud. Stroud grabs him, but Ben is able to twist away, and Stroud drives his hand into a mirror.

Striding back to the desk, he grabs the phone from the double-crossing desk clerk and heads into a room where a man faces away from him. The clerk yells and calls the police, but Ben slams the door on him.

"Henry Scudder," he says to the back of the man's head. "Who?" the man replies, as he turns and reveals his horribly scarred face. "You're him," Ben says calmly.

As Stroud begins breaking down the door with an axe, Ben confronts the mutilated man and tells him that he is his son. Placing his hands on the man's face, his scars begin to heal, and Scudder's face is revealed. At that moment, the desk clerk and Stroud find themselves suddenly gasping desperately for breath; in a circle around the hotel men have been knocked to their knees in agony. Half a continent away, Brother Justin vomits violently.

Later in Mintern, a huge, cheering crowd greets Brother Justin in the revival tent. He begins his sermon with the approved script, but is only a few lines into it when he stops and rips it loudly in front of the microphone. "That is the sermon that other men would have me deliver," he tells his followers, as well as the supervisory committee that has gathered around the radio to listen. "I now realize that you are not here to hear the words of other men. You are here for me. So that I am not alone in the garden."

Shredding his script, he rails against the church leaders, calling them arrogant, "fat, filthy pawns of the merchant regime." Tossing the pieces in the air, he fairly roars. "Where Jesus had twelve at his side, I will have 12,000!" he says. "You will hear the voice of one man...And that is the sound that they will fear!"

Alone in a field near the Carnivale, Libby and Jones make love on a blanket, and Libby tries to give Jonesy treatment unlike the service she provides "the johnnies." Across the camp, Samson and Sabina also seem to be renewing their acquaintance.

Ben brings Scudder to Management's trailer and the father tells his son that he is glad they had a few hours together. Ben says there will be plenty more, but Scudder is unconvinced. Taking a breath, he approaches the curtain and speaks to his enemy. "Belyakov," he says. "I'm not part of this. I never was...I just want to live my life in peace."

But Belyakov grabs him, causing him to writhe in pain. "Alexi, Alexi," Scudder says. "No!. He is the boy's opposite. And he has a man looking for me. And he's not dead."

A horribly mutilated Belyakov springs from the platform and attacks Scudder, and the two struggle as objects fly in the trailer. Ben yells at him to stop, and as Scudder reaches an arm out to him, Ben reaches for the dagger and plunges it into Belyakov. Again and again he stabs him.

Across the camp, Samson learns that Management ordered Sabina to keep Samson from interfering. "What have you done?" he asks, horrified.

In Management's trailer is his answer: Belyakov, on the floor, bleeds a pool of blue blood. With a gasp, he reaches up and grabs Ben's throat.

[liberalnurse]

29. Daniel Knauf explains avatars, the usher, etc.

Daniel Knauf posted this information on the CarnivaleHBO Yahoo board, in response to a post by Beth Blighton <skippery_boo@j...>, who had posted her understanding of what avatars and the usher of destruction are. Her reasoning was based on Daniel Knauf's comments in a chat hosted recently by the CarnivaleHBO Yahoo group (her post follows Daniel Knauf's). His post is in bold text:


Message #12275

From: "Daniel Knauf" <fboffo@y...>
Date: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:05 pm
Subject: Re: Prophet, Prince, Usher

Lots of folks got pieces of it right, but you're the first one to put them all together. Correct on all counts, including my riddle.

To clarify the rules established so far -

One Blood

Two Avatars per generation - eldest males, one light, one dark;

An Avatar's nature is random - dark can beget light, light, dark;

Two Houses, Light and Dark;

One Prophet (Dominant/eldest male) per House;

One or more Princes (Ascendant males), depending on the number of generations alive at any time;

(The whole thing is not altogether different than the ascent of royal families, except...)

A Prince must kill the Prophet with his own hands in order to gain his full measure of power (per Wilfred Talbot Smith, who knows a thing or three about these things).

Free choice is operative.

Though tougher and more resilient than normal humans, Avatars are still mortal.

The Usher of Destruction - An Avataric Prophet who has been foretold as a harbinger of the End Times (again, per Talbot Smith);

Keep in mind, may be other Avataric wild-cards like The Usher that have not yet been revealed, but hinted at.

Later,

D.


Here is a snip from Beth's post:

THE USHER: As Dan pointed out, there is only ONE Usher of
Destruction,
> foretold from the beginning of time, under a thousand different names,
> who will bring about the end of the world. He also said an Usher
must be
> (originally) an Avatar. But apparently, when he ascends his
position, he
> goes beyond mere Princely status to the actual Usher of Destruction in
> Justin's case.
>
> What all the historical figures Dan pointed out have in common is
that
> they are all MALE

[drdon326]

30. Do you have a link on that ??

;

[liberalnurse]

34. I'll post the newly discovered

info links tonight. I'm at work now and then I'm going to a King Arthur's Flour class on Artisan bread baking until 8:30.

[drdon326]

31. liberalnurse.....

help me out....

One Blood-------> is that blue blood ?

Two Avatars per generation - eldest males, one light, one dark;---> would that be HS and BJ?

An Avatar's nature is random - dark can beget light, light, dark;--->
belykov(sp?) begat BJ and HS begat BH...WHO BBEGAT HS??
AND IS HS DARK OR LIGHT?
?

Two Houses, Light and Dark;...WHAT HOUSE IS MANAGEMENT?

One Prophet (Dominant/eldest male) per House;BJ IS ONE...IS HS,BH OR MGMT THE OTHER?

One or more Princes (Ascendant males), depending on the number of generations alive at any time;----> IS THAT BH?

(The whole thing is not altogether different than the ascent of royal families, except...)

A Prince must kill the Prophet with his own hands in order to gain his full measure of power (per Wilfred Talbot Smith, who knows a thing or three about these things).-----> IF BH IS PRINCE, IS MGMT THE PROPHET?

Free choice is operative.

Though tougher and more resilient than normal humans, Avatars are still mortal.------> WHO ARE THE AVATARS HERE?

The Usher of Destruction - An Avataric Prophet who has been foretold as a harbinger of the End Times (again, per Talbot Smith);---->WOULD BH BE THE USHER OF SALVATION?

Keep in mind, may be other Avataric wild-cards like The Usher that have not yet been revealed, but hinted at.


DAMN THIS IS SOOOOOOO CONFUSING.

[drdon326]

32. From Carnivale forum.

Guys this needs to be paid special attention to. Here is the whole dialogue between good ol' super fan Beth and DK. Please note the most important part of this message from Knauff: "CORRECT ON ALL COUNTS!"

Beth says that Ben is CoL, Justin is CoD, Management is CoL, and Scudder is CoD.

**** DAN SAYS SHE IS CORRECT ON ALL COUNTS **** Period, end of story. As far as I am concerned this ends the biggest mystery, and we can move forward.

------------------------------------
Lots of folks got pieces of it right, but you're the first one to put
them all together. Correct on all counts, including my riddle.

To clarify the rules established so far -

One Blood

Two Avatars per generation - eldest males, one light, one dark;

An Avatar's nature is random - dark can beget light, light, dark;

Two Houses, Light and Dark;

One Prophet (Dominant/eldest male) per House;

One or more Princes (Ascendant males), depending on the number of
generations alive at any time;

(The whole thing is not altogether different than the ascent of royal
families, except...)

A Prince must kill the Prophet with his own hands in order to gain his
full measure of power (per Wilfred Talbot Smith, who knows a thing or
three about these things).

Free choice is operative.

Though tougher and more resilient than normal humans, Avatars are
still mortal.

The Usher of Destruction - An Avataric Prophet who has been foretold
as a harbinger of the End Times (again, per Talbot Smith);

Keep in mind, may be other Avataric wild-cards like The Usher that
have not yet been revealed, but hinted at.

Later,

D.


--- In [e-mail], Beth Blighton <skippery_boo@j...>
wrote:
> Okay...
>
> I'm gonna try to explain this, and if I get it wrong, Dan Knauf can
> totally come in here and slap me down on it. But just to clear things
> up, this is what *I* got from his explanation of how it works...
>
> Avatars: There are two avatars for each genertation, one bright and
> one dark
>
> Prophets & Princes: These are Avatars, ascending and descending.
> "When the Prophet Dies, the Prince Shall Rise."
>
> So what I take from that is, when there is a new generation of
> Avatars -- Dark & Bright -- they must take the place of the ones who
came
> before them. And if one in the generation before has already managed to
> take out his opposite, then maybe there's some kind of dominance that
> takes over. We don't know for sure that any generation of Dark & Bright
> avatars has ever managed to actually kill one of their opposites. So
> maybe that's why there has always been a balance. The hunt, one for the
> other is eternal, and as long as it continues, the universe remains in
> balance.
>
> But in this past generation, Scudder shirked his duties and avoided
> the hunt, thus setting that balance off, and perhaps leaving the door
> open for something of even greater power to rise in his place -- The
> Usher.
>
> But I think what we are seeing is Justin (the Dark Prophet of his
> generation) must take out Scudder (the Dark Prophet of HIS generation),
> to ascend to the position of Dark Prince. And I suspect, since
Justin is
> that creature who is just a little bit special (as in THE USHER), he
> won't just rise as a Dark Prince, he will rise as a full-fledged
Usher of
> Destruction.
>
> And now Ben (his generation's Prophet of Light), through the
> orchestrations of both Management and Scudder, has managed to kill
> Management (the Prophet of Light of HIS generation, who may have
attained
> Princely status -- thus the blue blood -- by killing his own previous
> generation's Prophet of Light.) So now Ben has ascended from Prophet of
> Light to Prince of Light.
>
> THE USHER: As Dan pointed out, there is only ONE Usher of
Destruction,
> foretold from the beginning of time, under a thousand different names,
> who will bring about the end of the world. He also said an Usher
must be
> (originally) an Avatar. But apparently, when he ascends his
position, he
> goes beyond mere Princely status to the actual Usher of Destruction in
> Justin's case.
>
> What all the historical figures Dan pointed out have in common is
that
> they are all MALE. So where Sophie and Appy and Iris may figure into
> this is a question still to be answered. Though I think Sophie, as the
> offspring of the Usher, and perhaps carrying the child of the Prince of
> Light (or maybe potentially being impregnated by the
Prophet/Prince/Usher
> of Darkness), is in a unique position of power and peril.
>
> So, go ahead Dan... I don't mind if Management gives me a smack for
> lighting his cigarette wrong. I only *think* I've got this right, but I
> may be totally off base...
>
> -- Beth

[liberalnurse]

37. It sure is sweet to have all this cleared up.

Sophie's pregnancy is definitely pivotal. In the end, I think Justin will be the Usher of Destruction but that means he must kill Scudder with his own hands.....only he can do this. It will be a challenge because he, Scudder, will probably stick closely to Ben. Ben needs Scudder to finish his training!


So this also clarifies that Justin is Sophie's daddy.

I'm wondering, if there is an Usher of Destruction then to balance this, must there be an Usher of Peace? Can an Avatar rise to such a Divine rank if he kills the Usher of Destruction?

[drdon326]

38. liberalnurse....

as i get it....Justin ( CoD) must kill BH (CoL) in order to gsin PROPHET status.


this is a 10 on the weird shit-o-meter.


on edit...

belykov (col) begat Justin (cod).

scudder (cod) begat BH (COL)

THEREFORE Justin parallel is to kill BH. WHEW.

[liberalnurse]

39. Justin needs to kill Scudder to gain Prince status.

Ben and Justin are already Prophets of their generation. Ben is now a Prince with Blue Blood as he killed Management, a Prince, his senior as COL. Scudder is a Prince too, the COD,and has Blue Blood. If you look at the text book that Talbot Smith gave to Justin, The Book of Matthias, you will see the only name not crossed off is Henry Scudder's.

Justin is still just a Prophet but with a little more spice to him since he is the COD of his generation and Scudder, the Prince of COD, has off-set the balance by trying to be peaceful. In the last episode, Scudder said, "I just wanted peace in the family"....He was not talking about the wild bunch in Texas with Granny Crone...but the family of COD/COL family tree of accession. I do not think Ben figured that out at the time at all.

Management and Scudder are of the last generation. Since Scudder did not act on his role of being COD, he bowed out/walked away from the game years ago,( as he said in the last episode). That action set the balance "off" and opened the door for one, Justin to ascend even higher, into the role of the Usher of Destruction....because he is a COD.

When Ben brought back the picture of the Usher from Father Kerrigan, Management knew that the Usher of Destruction was in play...that he is now flesh....not just an impending possibility.....he now lives.

[drdon326]

43. We're both right and wrong.

justin and, until recently, BH were BOTH princes....only way to become a prophet is to kill the prophet of your respective house ( light vs. dark).

BH , i believe , is now a prophet....since he killed belyakov.

And you are right......justin must kill scudder in order to become a prophet and ascend to the USHER OF DESTRUCTION.


NOW....

question # 1.......when that vision of the little girl Sophie saw said "EVERY PROPHET IN HER HOUSE"...was the little girl referring to BH....THE SON SHE IS NOW CARRYING..... OR JUSTIN??


question #2...when belyakov meets scudder he demands to know who is "THE BOYS ENEMY".....iS THE only way justin can ascend to the USHER OF DESTRUCTION is kill the CoL PROPHET?....ie,ben hawkins?

[liberalnurse]

45. I can answer question #2.

Management also known as Belyakov and a COL Prince, asked Ben, a Prophet of COL, to find Scudder,a Prince and COD because only Scudder knows the true name of the COD Prophet.....just as Management knew Ben's name. Justin must kill Scudder, Prince and COD to ascend into the Usher. The reason the Usher is fulminating is because Scudder was an under-achiever.....off-set the balance of good vs evil by his being passive which could be perceived as good.

Question #1:

I think the little girl said, "Every Prophet in His House".... The Avatars are all males....so this too makes sense.

DK share that we should think of the Avatars as we see Royal Families.....who ascends to the thrones????? Same concept. House of Windsor etc.......I think the saying goes all the way back to Old Testament Bible, Saul and David.

When the little girl vision occurred, the roll in the truck had not yet happened.

[drdon326]

47. Forgive me....

but the order you cite may be wrong.

One Blood

Two Avatars per generation - eldest males, one light, one dark;

An Avatar's nature is random - dark can beget light, light, dark;

Two Houses, Light and Dark;

One Prophet (Dominant/eldest male) per House;

One or more Princes (Ascendant males), depending on the number of generations alive at any time;

(The whole thing is not altogether different than the ascent of royal families, except...)

A Prince must kill the Prophet with his own hands in order to gain his full measure of power (per Wilfred Talbot Smith, who knows a thing or three about these things).

Free choice is operative.

Though tougher and more resilient than normal humans, Avatars are still mortal.

The Usher of Destruction - An Avataric Prophet who has been foretold as a harbinger of the End Times (again, per Talbot Smith);

----------------------------------------------------------------

So therefore....

avatars-->princes--> prophets (---->usher of destruction in cod)

Belykov and scudder were/are prophets.

bj = prince

bh = was prince now prophet


DID I GET THIS RIGHT ??

[liberalnurse]

48. Here is the link to the

DK's post:

http://deadwoodstage.proboards34.com/index.cgi?board=carnivalespoilers&action=display&num=1109113757


snips"


Prophets & Princes: These are Avatars, ascending and descending.
> "When the Prophet Dies, the Prince Shall Rise."

Prophets are red blooded unless they have killed a Prince, a blue-blood ...if he does that, he will become the Prince. That is how I read it......I can easily get lost without a map!

[liberalnurse]

53. Heck........

I've re read this stuff again.....I think I got the terms Prince and Prophet turned around.......Danm it!

Management must of been the COL Prophet and Ben the COL Prince.

So, everything I said about ascending is correct except for the titles. Gheeze!

Does that make sense now??????? Am I on target yet?

[liberalnurse]

55. Hey......,

you are right! I tend to have the occasional dyslexic moment.......Damn, I hate it when that happens....


You are good! :yourock:

[trotsky]

36. I just got to watch it last night.

Was out of town on a business trip starting on Sunday, so I missed the first broadcast. Thank you, HBO OnDemand!!!

All I can say after watching that one is, WTF?!?

Is Management dead or not?

Where's Sofie?

I was surprised at how "easily" Ben finally found Scudder. But I suppose that was part of it - Scudder probably knew that only his son would be able to see that vision of him and recognize him.

Amazing scene where Ben healed his face. But I wish they had shown more about what happened to Stroud after that - how is he going to continue his hunt?

[liberalnurse]

40. Management is dead.

Ben is now the Blue Blood Prince, Creature of Light. Thats why the carnival lights went out....then on....Ben became the new Prince, what Management was.... a transfer of Power.

Management knew all along what had to be done. He also realized that he could not effectively assist in the battle being diminished by his wounds. He realized when he saw the picture by Fr. Kerrigan that the Usher was here, flesh and in play.... a very dangerous, world catastrophe kind of danger. Scudder will now mentor Ben and show a few of his powers too. DK said that we best not count him out just because he wanted to walk away before. He will be motivated now plus he is the key target for Justin to fulfill his desire, to be the Usher. He knows what that means because Talbot-Smith has given him the Book of Mattias. Talbot-Smith use to befriend Scudder 12 years ago! Now he is in Justins camp.

[trotsky]

44. I watched it again last night.

I had forgotten the scene where Samson lights Management's cigarette, a process that got drawn out for effect, and Managment dismisses him with a "Goodbye, Samson."

Obviously Management knew what had to happen, and he had to come up with a way to make Ben kill him.

It was so interesting how Scudder was nearly always portrayed in Ben's visions as a dapper, tuxedo-wearing gentleman. A far cry from the aged, white-haired, scarred "freak" that he found in Damascus.

Here's a question:

We know that Scudder's mother (the old crone) killed his father. From his activities with the Klan and whatnot, we can probably figure that the elder Scudder was also CoD. But since his mom killed his dad, how did he get to be the Blue Blood Prince, CoD? Wouldn't he have had to do it?

[liberalnurse]

46. Scudders dad was not an Avatar to my knowledge.

At least not a COD....his name was not on the list within the cover of the book; The Gospel of Matthias. We get a glimpse of it when Talbot-Smith gives it to Justin. Scudder got to be a Prince, a Blue-blood by killing the previous Prince COD. I will have to go back and look at the list of names. That sounds like a fun search.....O8)

[trotsky]

49. But I thought the CoD/CoL passed from father to son?

CoL can beget either CoL or CoD, as we know. But I thought they had to go father-son?

[lazarus]

50. nope

otherwise Management would have known that Justin is actually Alexei.

Indeed, the fact that both of this generation are directly descended from the previous CoL/CoD could help explain the avatar arising.

[liberalnurse]

51. I too believe this

is a contributing factor to the avatar rising.

Damn, I love this show. I wish there was a book to read.

[liberalnurse]

54. I did a pause....screne shot

on my DVR to read this thing:

The names are somewhat scribbled in places:

xxxx Morgan

James Parks

Coulton Smith

Eugene S.......

Gregory Austin

Henry Scudder., the only name not scratched off.

[liberalnurse]

52. Who here thinks that the dentist

was Management? I went back and watched the beginning of Episode 13 and gandered at the Russian from Ben's vision/dream. They look so similar. Maybe Management got around more than we suspected. Scudder does......why not Management?