Iraq just went from horrible to un-friggin-believably awful

[TayTay]

Read Juan Cole today:

http://www.juancole.com/2006/02/shiite-protests-roil-iraq-tuesday-was.html

Also, the New York Times on this: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/22/international/middleeast/22cnd-iraq.html?hp&ex=1140670800&en=1077baccd068bf6b&ei=5094&partner=homepage

OMFG! The Sunni blew up one of the sacred shrines of the Shia that was in the city of Samarra. This is a disaster of epic proportions. I believe that Prof Cole is right, somehow the US is going to be blamed for this and Iraq will go into full blown civil war. OMFG!

See some background on the US troops in Samarra: http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/13880387.htm

This is very, very bad. I know the UAE and the ports are in the news, but this is a worst nightmare about Iraq. We need to pay attention. I hope we get a statement from Sen. KErry about this today, as well as everyone else on the SFRC and from That Friggin Idiot. OMFG!

[babylonsister]

1. U.S. to blame? It's already happening...

Shiite leader cites U.S. in shrine blast

A Shiite political leader said Wednesday that U.S. Zalmay Khalilzad shares some of the responsibility for the bombing of a major Shiite shrine because of his criticism of Shiite-led security forces

Abdul-Aziz al-Hakim, head of the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, cited Khalilzad's statement at a press conference Monday that America would not continue to support institutions run by sectarian groups with links to armed militias.

"For sure, the statements made by the ambassador were not made in a responsible way and he did not behave like an ambassador," al-Hakim told reporters. "These statements were the reason for more pressure and gave green lights to terrorist groups. And, therefore, he shares in part of the responsibility."

Khalilzad has urged the Iraqis to form a unity government in which nonsectarian figures control the ministries of Defense, which runs the army, and Interior, which is responsible for the police.

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/breaking_news/13933131....

[TayTay]

2. This changes a lot

We have to pull our troops out as soon as possible. This was one of the 'worst case' scenarios. This is just beyond awful. We need to get our people out of there, yesterday. Pull them back to Kuwait, whatever, but this is just unbelievable.

[babylonsister]

3. I also fear for all the U.S. troops, and the Iraqis who will pay

for this, whether they share any responsibility or not.
But do you honestly think this admin will do anything pro-active to help our soldiers?
I have grave doubts, as they have to 'stay the course'. :eyes:

[ProSense]

6. Remember this exchange?

This is from the transcript TayTay posted at link below.

As I said, elections don't mean democracy, but I've never seen one begin without an election.

KERRY: Well, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the comment. Actually, the American democracy began with a revolution, not an election.

RICE: Yes, they had an election fairly soon afterward, I believe, Senator, and that's when democracy really began.

KERRY: And with respect to Iraq, I mean, ultimately we had a Civil War to resolve the issue of slavery, and there are many people who argue that Iraq is already in a low-intensity civil war. And if you don't resolve the differences in this constitution, it will get worse.

So my point, Mr. Chairman, is simply that there are a lot of players over there and a lot of others, who do not see the pieces of the political -- can we get there? I believe we can. I think Senator Biden, as a lot of us have felt -- and we've stuck with this concept that success is critical and there's a way to get there.

(UNKNOWN): I think we're getting beyond it.

KERRY: But there are a lot of people who feel that opportunity after opportunity to realistically deal with that is just being obliterated and ignored.

RICE: Senator, I would just urge a little patience with the Iraqis. That was my point about the American democracy is it took us a while to work some of these issues out. I don't think the Iraqis are headed, tumbling toward civil war. I...

KERRY: So a little patience. The American people have already sustained a war that has gone on longer than World War II, longer than it took us to beat the Axis powers and have invested in ultimately what will be up to $300 billion and some say half a trillion dollars for their defense. That's pretty patient.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=273&topic_id=71421&mesg_id=71499

[karynnj]

8. This really is an order of magnitude worse

- this immediately blows away the Kolb plan mentality. We're in a different world - what's bad is theat Khalilzad was better than the others who have been there.

[TayTay]

9. This is the spark that an all-out holy war needed

and that is just frightening beyond words. God help all the innocents in Iraq and around the region on this. This was an awful act that was intended to bring Iraq to a complete civil war.

I am praying real hard that Al-Sistani can quiet the people and keep them from killing Sunnis on a wholesale vengeance spree. Honestly, this is just terrible, terrible news.

[nolies32fouettes]

28. I agree with your post here. And everyones too. this is amazing!

horrible but amazing that it's gone to this stage.

[wisteria]

4. I didn't like what I read either, it darkened my day. n/t

[whometense]

5. I don't know what to say.

It's horrible.

[beachmom]

7. See my comments on the BG Dems on Iraq thread

I hadn't even read about this incident when I predicted gloom and doom in Iraq (when in doubt, always predict it will get worse in Iraq, because it usually does). Quick summary: this is *'s war. Dems should criticize, criticize, criticize, and talk about troops coming home, but certainly not specifics. That's f***ing *'s job, and since he won't listen to anyone, the specifics are going to have to go to candidates in both parties for the '08 elections. I've read on RW sites that *'s plan is "Cut and walk". We'll just have to wait and see if that's the case. Pity the poor military personnel who do not have that luxury.

[karynnj]

10. This only makes your BG thread comments more accuarate

Per CNN, 27 Sunni mosques in Bagdhad have been attacked. They are in fear of sectraian civil war. They are saying it could be a breaking point.

Bush extended (via McClellan) his deepest sympathies. Urged restaint. He really should have gone on camera himself - so it could be broadcast in Iraq.

[wisteria]

11. Bush runs from trouble. n/t

[paulk]

12. no one seems to be paying much attention to this

I usually try to avoid hyperbole

but the fuse is lit

this is really, really, really bad

[TayTay]

13. Look what Juan Cole said later on today

Wednesday, February 22, 2006

Iran Blames Bush
Sunni Shiite Clashes

Shiites came out in the thousands all over the Shiite south on Wednesday to protest the bombing of the Askariiyah shrine in Samarra. A Sunni mosque was set afire. and a Sunni clergyman was assassinated.

The hardline Shiite Mahdi Army has come out of Sadr City and is all over Baghdad. They are clashing with Sunnis in Basra.

Sunni leader Tariq al- Hashimi threatened reprisals for reprisal killings.

Abdul Aziz al-Hakim blamed the US for holding back the Badr Corps.

Grand Ayatollah Sistani called for nonviolent street protests that he must know won't be nonviolent.

Iran is blaming Bush.

The threat of terrorism and attacks on Americans just went way up.

OMG! Just OMG! Can you even imagine being over there right now. (Iraqi citizen, American troops, anyone?) This is the top story of the year so far. It will get press, but it's just an awful, awful turn of events.

[karynnj]

14. Kerry last week with Dr Rice.

At the very end of his testimony - Kerry's voice was quite firm and slightly dramatic when he said that "we have a problem". This was in the midst of her very stupid patronising lecturing on democracy and elections.

From transcript:
RICE: Senator, I would just urge a little patience with the Iraqis. That was my point about the American democracy is it took us a while to work some of these issues out. I don't think the Iraqis are headed, tumbling toward civil war. I...

KERRY: So a little patience. The American people have already sustained a war that has gone on longer than World War II, longer than it took us to beat the Axis powers and have invested in ultimately what will be up to $300 billion and some say half a trillion dollars for their defense. That's pretty patient.

RICE: The Iraqis have been at the process of government formation for one year. That is really not very long in...

KERRY: The only point I'm making, Madam Secretary... RICE: And they had to overthrow, Senator, a brutal dictator. And yes, they've had to learn the patterns of coming to terms with each other political rather than through violence. And that takes some time.

KERRY: All I point to are the fundamentals. And if the fundamentals remain as divided as they are, and growing worse, not better, we have a problem.

LUGAR: Thank you very much, Senator Kerry.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

He did get the last word - and it seemed dramatic last week - now it sounds understated. (Just reading Rice's words makes me angry )

[TayTay]

15. And I agree, we have a problem.

Iraq was bad before. It just got a whole lot worse. There is nothing the US can do in a civil war. I think we are but days away from that Holy Civil War. Those poor people.

I hope JK takes his time before coming out with a comment on this one. It's so awful and so sad and so intractable a problem. In all honesty, I think the Dems should just call for unilateral withdrawal. We have failed in Iraq. (I think I'm having a down day, over here.)

[Inuca]

22. Bad day here too...

... I was listening to NPR in the car on my long drive to work, first the news about this, then a discussion about the Hamas government. Scary, depressing stuff.... And as somebody else mentioned down thread, I cannot be think of how things would have been different if people were less stupid a year and a bit ago... Kerry would have most likely been able to avoid the Hamas situation. About Iraq... I really do not know, it was already so bad and mixed up even then, that I selfishly am glad at times that he does not have to deal with the whole mess in a position of real power (hey, I like the guy, what can I say...).

[paulk]

16. I didn't see the hearings

but, I can imagine Rice with that purse-lipped, self righteous demeanor she adopts when confronted....

That school marme tone has served her well in the past

and there's a part of me that wants to see her proved so dramatically wrong -

as today's events do

but, the price our nation is paying (and has yet to pay) for the incompetence of these people

freezes the smile on my face

[karynnj]

17. You may not have seen her, but you captured her perfectly!

She was very obnoxious at the end - cutting Kerry off. I'm really glad Kerry got so many points out - she really really seemed to dislike him. She and her boss have already been proven wrong. The frustrating thing is the cost of the last election - the situation would likely still be bad, but we'd be moving in the right direction.

[beachmom]

18. Most apt quote from the WP as to what this day means to Iraq

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/22/AR2006022200454_2.html

Sistani, the single most influential Shiite leader in Iraq, allowed himself to be filmed meeting with other top Shiite religious leaders after the bombing. The rare appearance, televised without sound, underscored the gravity with which Iraq's leaders took the bombing.

"This is like 9-11 in the United States of America," Adil Abdul-Mahdi, a leading Shiite politician, told the Arabic-language al-Iraqiya television station.

"This could have serious repercussions," Abdul-Mahdi said. "Condemnations are not enough to deal with this. I insist that what happened is dangerous. . . . It requires a decisive reaction from the Shiite and Sunnis."

I see that the story is no longer a headline on AOL. Our media is not only in the hands of the RW, they're just plain dumb. They just missed the biggest event of the year. Portgate doesn't come close to this story.

[TayTay]

19. I agree, with much sadness. n/t

[karynnj]

21. This is the story of the day

CNN however spent at least 15 minutes on the interviews of a group of people who jointly won a lottery in Nebraska - they then spent less than a third of that time on Iraq.

[babylonsister]

27. This admin lives for distraction; anything is better for the

dumbed down than to actually really know what's going on in Iraq. These bombings will probably have major repercussions, but we can't discuss that here.
I was in MX a few weeks ago and saw CNN Int'l. The rioting in the streets caused by the cartoons was awe-inspiring, but I sure haven't seen much discussion of that here in the U.S.

Oh, and we're now up to 100 dead Americans since the beginning of the year, 2,280 total dead since the start, and an amazing 16,653 soldiers wounded:
http://icasualties.org/oif/
This isn't taking into consideration how the Iraquis have suffered. :cry:

[beachmom]

20. The work of al Qaeda, not Iraqis? What do you think?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7374-2053168,00.html

Professor Northedge, who last met Samarra's director of antiquities at a conference in Paris in September, believes the attack to be the work of al-Qaeda related militants from outside the town.

In September, Sunni rebels in Samarra joined an unprecedented condemnation of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's al-Qaeda in Iraq after the execution of a leading cleric in nearby Ramadi.

"It is really quite surprising that something like that has happened in Samarra," he says. "The people there have a a very, very powerful sense of community identity, they know how to act in their best interests."

"If you look at the resistance situation in Samarra, there are two general sorts: there are local fighters and there are al-Qaeda fighters and foreign jihadis," said Professor Northedge. "I'm absolutely certain that this is not the local people from Samarra, they would not have blown it up."

What is the slant of the London Times? I got this link from a RW site, and don't want to accept something at face value. But their positive spin (can you imagine?) is that this will turn local insurgents against foreign jihadis. This is possible, but unlikely. Iraqis are known to be big conspiracy believers and will probably blame the Americans. But I do want to know who precisely did this, and it's the Iraqis who have to do that detective work, not American troops.

[karynnj]

24. The Times of London is now owned by Murdoch

It is more conservative than it used to be, but at least last year, it still seemed a reasonable paper comparable to our better papers.

[beachmom]

25. Thanks, Karynnj! And thanks for your earlier comments on my

Iraq analysis! Yeah, anything related to Murdoch makes me suspicious. However, I do suspect al Qaeda for this attack -- what they do best is to continue to surprise in how horrific and low they can go. I still think killing people is worse than destroying a religious shrine, but if you think about it, this is all deja vu. Remember when the Taliban destroyed those old Buddhist shrines in Afghanistan and the world was outraged? Well, a few months later they did 9/11. Not only should we be afraid for Iraqis, but for the entire world. It seems that extremists, whether at home or abroad, are in charge, and I shudder at what the future will bring.

[karynnj]

26. It also makes more sense to be outsiders - Al Qaeda or others

Even local insurgents would likely not want the chaos this could lead to. It's kind of the other side of the idea that if the local Sunnis were given some stake in the new government, they would be moved to surpress their own insurgents. Outsiders would be less concerned with where it leads.

I agree this isn't limited to Iraq - if you think about it you have a mess in that entire region. Think of the number of unstable countries: Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, the Palestinians. Pakistan has always been shaky in that coups are possible - they have nuclear bombs, thanks I think to Bush 1.

[kerrygoddess]

23. Checking to see if there will be a statement

Just asked...

[ProSense]

29. Iraq on the verge of civil war and what does Bush have to say

Mosque Attack Pushes Iraq Toward Civil War
By ZIAD KHALAF, Associated Press Writer

SAMARRA, Iraq - Insurgents posing as police destroyed the golden dome of one of Iraq's holiest Shiite shrines Wednesday, setting off an unprecendented spasm of sectarian violence. Angry crowds thronged the streets, militiamen attacked Sunni mosques, and at least 19 people were killed.

Snip...

President Bush pledged American help to restore the mosque after the bombing north of Baghdad, which dealt a severe blow to U.S. efforts to keep Iraq from falling deeper into sectarian violence.

"The terrorists in Iraq have again proven that they are enemies of all faiths and of all humanity," Bush said. "The world must stand united against them, and steadfast behind the people of Iraq."


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060222/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_060222213535

[ProSense]

30. What's scary is he actually rehearsed his lines before the debates

Kerry Hits Bush Quote on Carrier Banner

By Lois Romano and Mike Allen
Washington Post Staff Writers
Monday, September 27, 2004; Page A06

MADISON, Wis., Sept. 26 -- John F. Kerry excoriated President Bush on Sunday for saying that he had no regrets about his declaration more than a year ago that the mission in Iraq was accomplished, when the country continues to be in a state of war.

Snip...

Bush stayed out of sight at his ranch in Crawford, Tex., and held a debate practice for the second time in two days with Sen. Judd Gregg (R-N.H.), who has been playing the role of Kerry. Bush's chief ad strategist, Mark McKinnon, served as moderator. Since July, Bush has done about four formal debate run-throughs lasting a couple of hours each.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A52627-2004Sep26?language=printer

[TayTay]

31. Of course he rehearsed it.

No one can look that dumb and befuddled by accident. LOL!

Sigh, the day in Iraq had me thinking about what Sen. Kerry said in Dec when he was on the Imus show:

KERRY: And at Annapolis, he actually broke it down more candidly and said that the foreign jihadists are actually the smallest percentage of the insurgency. And what's interesting about that is, you know, when you talk to the Shia or you talk to the Kurds, they'll tell you they don't want those guys there.

And so, once you've got the Iraqis moving forward more responsibly, taking care of their own security, they're going to take care of the jihadists. And that's really the answer to the sort of war on terror component of this with respect to jihadists.

Now, I gave a speech yesterday here in New York at the Council of Foreign Relations, where I talked about the real struggle on the war on terror is not a military struggle. It's the struggle within Islam. And the problem in Islam is that you have nothing in between the mosques and these authoritarian governments.

So there's no secular structure. And within the mosques, within Islam, there's no center of moral authority that speaks out against people murdering people.

Yesterday, for the first time in Mecca, led by King Abdullah, leaders of the region spoke for the Muslim world and said we're not going to tolerate this. That's the real battle. And that's the way we're ultimately going win this.

IMUS: Talking to Senator John Kerry on the IMUS IN THE MORNING program. It's 20 minutes until the hour.

Well, you know, of all of the people who we talked to on this program and all of the various people who have all of these ideas about a solution for Iraq, I don't hear any on -- just -- maybe, but I just don't hear any of it make any sense. I don't see any other thing happening other than we have this election, whatever that means, and we reached a point where it looks like we can save face by getting out of there.

We get out. It blows up. There's a civil war. And somebody's in charge, like Saddam Hussein. Tell me how that's...

KERRY: That's one possibility.

IMUS: Well, yes. Tell me why that's not realistic.

KERRY: It may well be. It may well be. But there is a different alternative. And the different alternative is that you do succeed in negotiating with the Sunnis, so you have a sufficient number of Sunnis who get oil revenues and guarantees about the national structure of Iraq which is currently at issue so that they buy in sufficiently that they isolate the Ba'athists who want to return to power.

Look, you've got countries where -- look at northern Ireland, look at the Basques in Spain, look at the, you know, difficulties in parts of India and places. I mean, you've had struggles that go on for years and years, but you have a government and you have some semblance of stability.

I think there's a possibility of getting that out of Iraq. Now, whether we will or not is subject to this administration getting it right. And there's nothing in what they have done so far that suggests they will, because every time they've had a major choice, they've taken the wrong road here.

I wish there were actual, real-live grown-ups around to help us with Iraq instead of idealogues and crazies who only see what they want to see. It's just getting worse and worse.

[ProSense]

32. That was a great inteview.

As long as Bush keeps responding to the situation in Iraq with statements about rebuilding and us against them, instead of working toward a strategic solution, I'm afraid it only going to get worse. I wish he would be himself and quit, go AWOL permanently.

[ray of light]

33. this gave me chills

http://markfromireland.blogsome.com/2006/02/23/reaction-to-the-samarra-bombing/

(Nolie's writing about it tonight I think.--amongst other links in this topic.)

[karynnj]

34. That is truely frightening

[beachmom]

35. My local paper is run by a bunch of IDIOTS!!

This morning, I figured I would look at the paper first before the blogs, because with such a big story I do like to go to the MSM who have reporters in Iraq. And what was on the front page of my paper? The lottery winners. And a kooky, stupid pro-gun law passed by the state assembly. And parents monitoring what their kids eat at schools. And something about the ports. So, I figure, okay, it's on page 2. No. I turn, turn, turn, and finally on A14, they have an article by the AP, and a sort of same old same old violence in Iraq medium sized headline. THIS is why * is still our president. There are people who do dedicate themselves to reading their local paper every day, who think themselves informed citizens. These are not lazy Fox viewers, laying on the couch waiting to be entertained by O'Reilly; these people take the time to read when so many people don't. And yet, had they done their duty and read the paper today, they would have no f***ing clue what just happened in Iraq. A14 ain't gonna cut it. Since most of us are not familar with the Shi'ite sect of Islam and all of their beliefs and shrines, it is the media's JOB to explain these things to a non-Muslim public, and they failed.

Sigh, sigh, sigh.

[karynnj]

36. Your paper is not alone.

It was A12 in my local paper in suburban NJ - Front page:
-A local house fire, with the requisite photo with firemen and family
-Corzine has put some nusance taxes increases on hold
- The port deal
-Catholic bishop cancelled visit to local town (due to anger re: abuse charges)

Most people here do get the NYT or Star Ledger (Newark) as well as this local paper - but your point is very well taken

[beachmom]

39. Ah . . . Main page DU and dKos also haven't figured it out either

I just took a little tour, and briefly, those who have gotten it, and those who haven't:

Got it:

Tay Tay at DU (you rule with your astute statements and judgments)
Andrew Sullivan (a little slow, but has figured out that there is probably going to be a civil war)
Huffington Post (slow yesterday, but today realizes that the headline should occupy entire top space)
BBC (great coverage)
Juan Cole (the first one)
Iraqi bloggers (ah . . . they live there, and know it better than us)

Still haven't got it:

DU (Main) Yes the port story is big, but this is bigger
dKos - only one small mention of Juan Cole's diary (where is Mr. Negative Armando when we need him?)
MSM - (AOL DID make it the headline today, but for how long?; the rest think people winning the f***ing lottery is a bigger story)

I'm going to go out on a limb here, but this is a FAR better indication of insensitivities to Islam than those silly Danish cartoons. This is a BIG DEAL to them; the shrine is gone, and it's like nobody cares . . .

[TayTay]

41. Blowing up one of the 4 most sacred shrines in Shi'ite Islam

is a big, big, big deal. I am heartsick about all the suffering that will come from this. Human history is stuffed with instances like this and no good thing comes of it. Religious holy war are something that can take decades to resolve. I do not blame the Americans for this, I think Al Qaeda or a extremist Sunni sub-sect did this, but America did go to war with Iraq and didn't secure the peace after the war. This type of thing was foreseen by the State Department. We are culpable for what we didn't do: secure the country and prevent this factionalism from going as far as it has.

It just awful. I try to keep up and read Juan Cole (whom I disagree with from time to time, but he is a brilliant observer of the Middle East and 'knows his stuff.' ) I try to read Riverbend, though it hurts my heart to do so. I just ache for everyone over in Iraq right now. This looks like a holy war and a civil war that will only bring suffering to a people who have suffered enough.

[europegirl4jfk]

42. I have to add CNN International and Yahoo

CNNi talked about it for hours yesterday; the port story was only in second place. And Yahoo had several different headlines since yesterday afternoon and some talked about open civil war in Iraq.

BTW, guys, I haven't been here for a while because I visited my daughter and she hasn't Internet access yet. But I'm back now and will answer my emails in the next days as well.

[TayTay]

45. It must be strange and almost surreal to look at the

American media on this. I cannot for the life of me understand why this isn't leading every news channel and the subject of every 'top of the hour' story on cable. This story is immense and has repercussions far beyond Iraq. The US has to carefully think about what it wants to do next and, I think, much more seriously consider withdrawing it's forces. (Is this top of the news in Europe?)

[europegirl4jfk]

50. Yes, it's all over the news here in Europe

I watch German TV via satellite dish and they talked about it a lot last night, had some specialists on etc. It was on French TV too. I think we get a good picture of what is really going on in the world here in Europe. And even CNNi is okay. They can't afford to be only a Bush propaganda channel because they are seen around the world. The difference to the American media must be huge. The only real American program I see here sometimes is Anderson Cooper 360 (formerly NewsNight with Aaron Brown which I liked better) when CNNi joins CNN-US every night. And honestly most of the time it's shocking how big the difference between the two sister-channels is. Last night CNNi didn't stop talking about the mosque incident and it's consequences, while Anderson totally ignored the subject during his program. No wonder that so many Americans are so uninformed. It really isn't their own fault.

[europegirl4jfk]

51. Right now on CNNi "Insight", a 30 min program is about Iraq n/t

[TayTay]

56. Hardball on MSNBC did the whole show on Iraq tonight.

The cable channels here are waking up to the fact that this is the big story right now and dwarfs all others. It was a scary show. Matthews had three retired military on and they said the next 36-72 hours will determine if Iraq goes into civil war this weekend or six months down the road. (Either scenario is horrifying, of course.)

There are a lot of people in the lib-blogs who knew that this was the eventual path that this war would take. It's unbelievably awful to have it come to fruition. (Nothing would make me happier than to have tomorrow pass and the country not erupt into more chaos after prayer services. I truly hope that happens.) I think it really gets me because I remember arguing with so many people when that war was being debated and when it finally broke out about how bad it was going to be. And so it is. And that thought is depressing beyond words. It's also nearly impossible not to feel awful about it because it is America's war, whether I backed it or not. We didn't *do* this, and yet we are responsible for it just the same. We broke that country and I don't believe we can fix it. I really don't. Sigh!

The active civil war changes a lot. I would now like to hear another speech from Sen. Kerry and from other Dems about what happens next in Iraq, but I am not in a hurry for this. (I want something well-thought out and thoughtful. I can wait for that, espeically since events over there for the time being will overtake any US action anyway.) I know events have to play out this weekend. But I do hope to hear something within the next couple of weeks. This is critical.

[karynnj]

44. I was shocked that CNN spent over 15 minutes

covering the lottery press conference live - while spending a trivial amount of time on Iraq. (I think they gave the lottery people more open mike time than they gave Kerry when he gave major speeches as the Democratic party nominee.

I agree that the shrine is a huge deal - part of the problem is there is no real American analogue. No church has the same significance in terms of history or religious significance. You almost have to use European examples - like St Peters in Rome.

[wisteria]

38. My area is the same way, most people get their news from the

papers. The most popular paper is run by Scaife and it is just awful.So biased and crazy. Words like Marxist, and Communists are the norm. The people in the area read it like it was the bible and take the paper at its word. I won't even subscribe to it. I receive the downtown city paper that is more moderate, but I miss all the local news and events stories.
These are just other examples of a biased media. The Democrats have got to find a way around this situation. The media is not our friend and is designed to work against us.

[globalvillage]

52. Do you get the PG?

I know most of your neighbors read the trib.

Lead story in the PG:

Shrine Bombed, Iraq Explodes

With 2 pics.

This is some scary shit.

[beachmom]

37. A rare consensus from two polar opposite Iraqi bloggers

They're scared.

Iraq the Model (pro-American, pro-democracy, writer even met with * in the WH once)

http://iraqthemodel.blogspot.com/2006/02/holy-shia-shrine-bombed-in-samarra.html

Things look scary here in Baghdad and I hope there won't be more updates to report as I can't see a positive thing coming out of this.

Update 4:30 pm

It seems that I have no choice but to point out a few important updates that I found from the local media as well as my personal observations:

-President Talabani promises to make rebuilding the shrine his personal responsibility and to donate the required money from his own.

-Head of the Sunni endowment sheikh Ahmed al-Samarra'I announces that he will allocate 2 billion dinars (~1.4 million $) for the rebuilding of the shrine from the treasury of the Sunni endowment.

-Huge demonstrations in many of Iraq's provinces including Samarra and Mosul where thousands of people condemned the attack.

-The top 4 Shia Ayatollahs hold a meeting at Sistani's home to discuss the situation.

-The Association of Muslim scholars and the Islamic Party condemn the "criminal act".

-Retaliatory attacks on reportedly 29 Sunni mosques and the Accord Front warns from the consequences of such violent reactions.

-Jafari in a press conference calls for national unity and the leaders of the UIA hold a meeting. A press release is expected to come soon.

-The Iraqi TV opened the phone lines to receive the reactions of the audience to the attack and hosts Sunni clerics and politicians in an attempt to relieve the tension.

-Baghdad is in undeclared emergency situation, shops closed and streets nearly empty.

-Tight security around the shrine of Abu Haneefa in Aazamiya district of Baghdad, this is considered the top shrine/mosque for Sunni Muslims in Iraq.

-Masked gunmen attack Shia protestors in at least one neighborhood in western Baghdad and armed clashes in Ghazaliya and Hay al-A'amil.

-People exchange phones calls with their relatives and friends to check on them and discourage them from leaving their homes.

Riverbend (anti-occupation, anti-American, usually gloom and doom, but she has proven to be right more times than not)

http://www.riverbendblog.blogspot.com/

We woke up this morning to news that men wearing Iraqi security uniforms walked in and detonated explosives, damaging the mosque almost beyond repair. It’s heart-breaking and terrifying. There has been gunfire all over Baghdad since morning. The streets near our neighborhood were eerily empty and calm but there was a tension that had us all sitting on edge. We heard about problems in areas like Baladiyat where there was some rioting and vandalism, etc. and several mosques in Baghdad were attacked. I think what has everyone most disturbed is the fact that the reaction was so swift, like it was just waiting to happen.

snip

No one went to work today as the streets were mostly closed. The situation isn’t good at all. I don’t think I remember things being this tense- everyone is just watching and waiting quietly. There’s so much talk of civil war and yet, with the people I know- Sunnis and Shia alike- I can hardly believe it is a possibility. Educated, sophisticated Iraqis are horrified with the idea of turning against each other, and even not-so-educated Iraqis seem very aware that this is a small part of a bigger, more ominous plan…

Several mosques have been taken over by the Mahdi militia and the Badir people seem to be everywhere. Tomorrow no one is going to work or college or anywhere.

People are scared and watchful. We can only pray.

[wisteria]

40. Thanks for posting these chilling comments.

The media just doesn't want to grasp this. Or perhaps, they have been instructed to tone it down by the White House. Notice Bush's reaction to this, almost like it was to be expected that some violence would occur, but all will go well in the end. All we need is patience. Remember Condi's words- democracies take time.

[ProSense]

43. Excellent post. No matter how critical the situation gets in Iraq,

the American media has three responses:

1.. Iraq is bad, but the Republicans say the situation isn't as bad as it appears.

2.. Democrats don't have a plan (the implication being nothing can be done except what Bush is doing).

3.. Pretend the war isn't happening.

[beachmom]

46. More updates from Iraq (mostly bad)

First, the Sunnis have quit negotiations to form a new government. However, there have been protests of Shi'ites and Sunnis pleading for unity (there is only one Iraq). I quoted two Iraqi bloggers. But Zeyad is probably my favorite blogger; he is pro-democracy, and WAS pro-American until American soldiers threw his cousin in the river and he drowned. Talk about stupid and tragic. His posts are honest, but he sees things from different angles. Here are a few samples:

http://www.healingiraq.blogspot.com/

Wednesday, February 22, 2006

Samarra Attack, the Last Straw?

The situation in Baghdad is bad, bad, bad. I had to flee work early and return home after news of large protests in Shi'ite districts, and several attacks against Sunni mosques in the Baladiyat, Sha'ab and Dora districts by angry rioters. Sunnis are being blamed for the attack against a Shia holy shrine in Samarra, a largely Sunni town.

The streets look empty now, and all stores seem to be closed. I can hear gunfire and American helicopters and jets circling the skies.

I'll update again when I get a grip on what is going on. Things look tense enough.

snip

Clashes are being reported in Sulaikh, Ghazaliya, Al-Amil, Sha’ab and Dora districts of Baghdad.

And right now, they sound like they are near my doorstep. The Interior ministry forces and Mahdi militiamen are having a field day. Relatives from Palestine street and Baghdad Al-Jedida have called to report raid campaigns against Sunni neighbourhoods.

Is this the final straw? Or will it pass after a random spree of violence? No one can really tell at the moment.

UPDATE 2: It's almost 3 am and I can still hear gunfire in the neighbourhood. Word of the street in our area is that Sunni neighbourhood watch teams are patrolling several Sunni districts in Baghdad, such as Adhamiya, Ghazaliya, Khadhraa, Adil, Dora, Amiriya, Bayaa, Mansour and Al-Jihad. They say if any Interior ministry forces (read Badr brigade) enter the area, local mosques will shout three Allahu Akbar's through loudspeakers as a sign for residents to defend themselves.

Sistani called for calm, yet he urged his followers to continue with 'non-violent' demonstrations.

Meanwhile, the Islamic party reports a total of 109 mosques attacked Wednesday. 11 Sunnis have been killed in the violence, 6 of whom were mosque Imams.

[beachmom]

47. How this ties in with American troops

7 Americans troops died today, but I'm ashamed to admit that's not even big news from Iraq. What I have been reading is that the ONLY thing stopping full out civil war are our troops stationed there.

I have to say, when I was watching the scenes from Iraq on the News Hour last night, I imagined in my head all of the American troops saying "hey!! Let's get outa here" and them all simultaneously leaving in the dead of night. The Iraqis wake up the next day, look around, and think "hmmm, something's different, but I can't quite put my finger on it . . . ". In reality, if our troops were to leave that would be the equivalent to those New Orleans police officers not reporting for duty when all hell broke loose after the city was flooded. Anybody who thinks Iraq is simple needs to study it more. We're damned if we leave, damned if we stay.

[karynnj]

48. Thanks for posting this

This is a nightmare. This blogger is an excellent writer in what is obviously not his first language. This account is terrifying. I hope his insinuation that Sistani may not be completely against the turmoil is not true as his statement was about the only positive news.

Did he blog about his cousin's death? This really is becoming Vietnam again - but in a far more dangerous place in a far more dangerous time.

[Inuca]

49. Thanks for bringing this to my attention

I have heard of Iraqi blogs, but never read one. Reading this gave me goosebumps. Poor people.... I wish more people were aware of such writings. Not only extremely interesting first-hand documents, but it would serve to put a much more "human" face on all the tragedies that happen over there, more so in my opinion that short TV clips or still pictures, no matter how good or emotional they are. It would also remind people that Iraq, in spite of the huge differences, is not inhabited by "barbarians" that have too little in common with us here. The account is very well written, both language, content, form, evrything... I teach college, not many of my students would be able to write like this, unfortunately.

[beachmom]

54. About a year ago, I read the Iraqi blogs quite often

And then I stopped. Mostly, because they weren't updating their blogs that often, and after bringing up the website with nothing new for a week, you tend to forget to go back. Of course, the reason why there is only intermittant updating is because they only have intermittant power! In the case of Zeyad, he actually stopped blogging for a while because he got so depressed. He didn't want to have to write about how bad things were post after post. There really was a lot of optimism after that first election in January '05; that was not * propaganda -- there was hope. But now they are no longer so hopeful. Riverbend is a favorite of the anti-war left crowd and Iraq the Model is the favorite of the neocons. That makes me a little suspicious of both; it's kind of like Iraq the Model is Fox News and Riverbend is Democracy Now! But I have to say that Riverbend has been more right than wrong. I got very angry at Riverbend when she alleged that chemical weapons were used in the Battle of Fallujah -- I thought it was total bull****, and crossed the line and amounted to anti-American propaganda. Now we find out that she was right, so that makes me trust what she writes more. Iraq the Model is always sunny ignoring what is going wrong, which is why his ominous post from yesterday is such a big deal.

Anyway, I'm going to try to check out their blogs on a regular basis. I agree that their personal accounts bring the war into your living room more vividly than a first rate documentary on the war.

[Inuca]

62. Can you please post some links? n/t

[Inuca]

63. Nevermind, sorry... forgot about your earlier post with links n/t

[politicasista]

53. The other sad thing is that many will blame the Dems that voted for IWR

I agree. It's very bad and ugly.

[beachmom]

55. I actually think we're getting past that point. Really.

John Kerry said it best when he said EVERYTHING has changed since that 2002 vote -- all of the lying and bad intelligence. Plus, we're also at the point where almost everyone except the last holdout wingnuts think that the * administration big time botched post war planning. Had they done things differently (like with 500,000 troops to secure the country at the beginning), what has happened now didn't have to. THAT has nothing to do with a vote in the Congress. Maybe it's just me, but I really am over that vote, and squarely put this war on *'s shoulder. I'm not going to sit there and blame a minority party who may have voted yes in their concern for nuclear proliferation when the intelligence was so cooked.

[karynnj]

58. I think you are right on that

You still see it here on DU, but it's very muted compared to a year ago. It also is clear that part of it is just anti-Kerry. This was clearest when Edwards was forgiven in an instant when he began a column with "I was wrong" - even though in his case the "wrong" was to have actively pushed the war, being a co-sponsor of the resolution and a supporter of the war even after the invasion and the discovery that their were no WMD.

Kerry publicly spoke his belief that his vote was wrong in front of a large audience. This had to be harder than writing it and he it very clearly meant something to him when he spoke of taking his share of the responsibility. In his case he is likely correct that he was quilty only of trusting that the President of the United States would not blatantly lie when he made promises to them on the issue of war and peace. If Bush would have kept the promises that he never meant for an instance to keep, there would have been no war. He also spoke of this in a speech where he detailed a thoughtful creative plan that probably represented our last hope to exit Iraq with any grace at all.

The issue may be what to do going forward. THe problem now is that likely all the plans are out the window. Kerry's often mentioned "window of opportunity" may have been slammed shut. The Korb plan looks worse by the day.

Consider that when McCarthy ran as the anti-war candidate, Robert Kennedy still was somewhat behind the war. He changed and within a short time people looked at where he was going and saw that McCarthy was too one issue and most of the antiwar crowd switched to Kennedy.

[TayTay]

59. I think it has just become apparent how bad a screwup this was

And it re-reminds me how awful the results of that last Prez elections truly were for the nation and the world. Sigh!

Psalm 129: ‘De profundis clamavi ad te Domine. Domine exaudi vocem meam,’

[karynnj]

60. What does the latin mean

Domine is the only word I remember from my years when they had the latin dialogue masses in the early 60s.

I think the explosion at the shrine may be the "match" reasonable people have feared for the last year. I agree with you the consequence of the last election is incredibly large - and I hope people who knew better feel some sense of the quilt they have - starting with the press.

The fact that they ignored all of Bush's obvious flaws, distorted both men's personalities, and even smeared Teresa. I saw almost nothing written about Teresa's work - which really showed the serious, wonderful person she is. Instead their were articles praising Laura as the epitome of first ladies, even though she did less than any I can remember.

[TayTay]

61. This is the rought translation

Out of the depths I have cried to thee, O Lord: Lord, hear my voice.

It's that prayer for the desperate. I kept it in the original becuase I am such a dispiriting voice on this right now. I think I will quit posting about it for awhile. My feelings on this turn of events are way beyond negative. The prayer of despair is pretty out there I guess.

[karynnj]

67. That really does fir - thanks for the translation

It's hard not to be in despair over the situation - and it really isn't about politics or positioning. It does bother me that a large part of the Democratic party was more concerned with finding the "right" position on the political spectrum rather than being driven be what could extricate us leaving Iraq with some semblance of peace.

On a more positive, but very sobering note, my local paper had a front page story about a local town donating a home to a very injured returning vet. To make the house handicap accessable, they found a Massachusetts non-profit that will make the house handicap accessable.

http://www.dailyrecord.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060224/NEWS01/602240336/1005

[Inuca]

65. "all the plans are out the window"

That was my first thought this morning as I started reading the latest. Kerry's well thought plan, benchmarks, etc.... too late now, most probably. I am completely at a loss for what I want, leave right away? stay and try to... try to what??? US soldiers in the middle of a civil war would only further inflame all the participants... this is worse than Vietnam, religious fanaticism is worse than anything, in my book... I fully agree with what somebody else (Tay?) said, it is not the time for JK nor anybody else to come out with rushed statements or altered plans. But we may be at the point where ANY solution can only be a VERY BAD solution. Damn the blabbering selfish idiots that created this awful mess.

[ProSense]

57. 'Boston Globe' Shuts Baghdad Office (security costs)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2477859&mesg_id=2477912


What happens when the media leaves?


These are some horrible stories, but the common thread is the Bush administration's denial that Iraq has reached the tipping point.

[beachmom]

64. A Zeyad post that shows the ultimate despair

http://www.healingiraq.blogspot.com/

What kind of nation are we? What kind of nation kills its intellectuals and academics, its doctors and healers, its women and children, its clerics and preachers? What kind of nation blows up churches and mosques, hotels and schools, funerals and weddings? We have left nothing sacred. Yet we have the insolence to accuse others of offending us, of vilifying us. I announce today that we have proved ourselves worthy of that vilification. Ten years ago, I denounced religion and disavowed Islam. I do not want to be forced to disavow my country and nation today, but with every new day, I’m afraid I am getting closer to it.

I wonder if he'll leave Iraq . . .

Edited to add that I'm not sure if he CAN leave (he's a dentist but I'm not sure how much money he makes). Background on him -- he is a Sunni (obviously non-religious), and you can definitely tell that he is getting increasingly annoyed with the religious Shiites. However, in general, he is not interested in labels like Sunni/Shiite/Kurd and just wants people to think of themselves of being Iraqi.

[Inuca]

66. I just read that...

... a few moments before I saw it here, and was wondering at his courage to claim his disavowal of Islam.

[beachmom]

68. I hope that there's nothing on his blog that would lead to his identity

The thing is, there's something very, well, American about him (perhaps this is due to the evil, but secular rule of Saddam Hussein). Lots of people in this country turn away from the Church, although people look at them a little weird, most people accept it. However, I believe the Koran says you can be put to death for disavowing Islam, and no doubt the fundamentalists would enforce that rule in Iraq. I think the Koran is fine if read metaphorically and for inspirational stories. But like the bible, read in its literal form makes violence inevitable. If you don't believe me, pick up either book (Leviticus in the Old Testament is a great place to start), and you will find some scary stuff.

I read the book "The End of Faith" by Sam Harris, and there are pages and pages in the Koran of "Kill the infidel" which he quoted extensively. I realize that what I am saying here is politically incorrect, but a guy like Zeyad could be killed for his beliefs, not by terrorists but by strict followers of Islam, and for me, this is a problem that needs to be pointed out. I am more hopeful for Islam in America, because I think that we are more accepting of foreigners than Europeans, and perhaps some great thought may come out of the Muslim communities in this country. But it might take another generation for that to happen. The point is that Islam needs to modernize; until it does, blood will continue to flow along with the oil in the Middle East.

[TayTay]

70. I disagree with some of that

Islamd, at it's height of power and influence in the Middle AGes was a seat of learning, science, art and was, for it's time, respectful of the rights of other faiths to exist without persecution. There is a history of tolerance in the Islamic faith toward other monotheistic faiths (other 'People of the Book'.) Islam now is in turmoil because it has lost it's preeminence in the world and is having an identity crisis. Where is Islam heading, toward democratic reform and the inevitable opening up of it's society to the modern world or toward a more insular and restrictive model of governance. This is what Sen. Kerry was referring to in his speech at the CFR back in Dec.

Ahm, Christianity also went through this and *is* going through this. (We are having another sort of Reformation right now. There is a fight over conservative vs. liberal interpretations of Chrsitianity. This is causing the Culture Wars in the USA, to just cite one instance.) Fundamentalist Hinduism is also on the rise and will become more and more of a factor as India becomes more and more of a player on the global stage. (The dark side of globalization, as Kerry once called it. There is a push to open these places to the world and to have free trade and to invite in 'foreigners' and what are foreign notions of how to do things. That is very trheatening to a lot of people in power. The rise of fundamentalism as a global force is no accident.)

[beachmom]

71. You make some excellent points, especially about Islam's great past

I was just saying that the Koran is quite clear (if interpreted literally) that Zeyad should be put to death for giving up his religion. Here is the quote per the book I mentioned above:

Koran 3:86-91

"Whoever changes his religion, kill him."

It is true that Islam had a golden age while Europe was theocratic, illiterate, and barbaric. But that decline happened a LONG time ago. There are a variety of reasons why this happened (including the Mongols), but the question is, why is the area still so backward now? I thought JK had some great ideas in his speech at the Council of Foreign Relations -- he talked about a war within Islam. The problem is that the moderate voices are so soft, you can't seem to hear them. And in light of the rise of fundamentalism in ALL religions (including Hinduism), I am very pessimistic about the near future. And I think Islamic fundamentalism is the most disturbing one of them all, because it has spilled the most blood.

And just so you know, Muslims were nicer to "People of the Book" than the Europeans were to their ethnic minorities; however, there were still many pogroms against the Jews in the Middle East. Example, Jewish pogroms in Iraq happened in the following years: 1828, 1936, 1937, 1948, and 1967.

Look, I hope you are right, and my pessimism about the religion is completely off base. But I grew up with Christian zealots (who even barred our junior high from having school dances), and I'm now living among many intolerant devoutly religious people. Don't interpret my criticism of Islam as a general intolerance of religions unlike my own. I have no problem with people wearing different clothes, having different customs, praying differently, and so on. I know "Allah" is the same God as the Christian and Jewish God, and I am puzzled by my Southern Baptist brothers and sisters here who think that if you don't accept Jesus as your savior, you will go to hell. In spite of my multicultural liberal viewpoint of the world, my core liberal values do trump my multicultural ones, and I do find fundamentalist Islam a threat to my way of living AND my life. If they won't respect me, it will be hard for me to respect them.

[karynnj]

69. What a remarkable person he must be to write this

in the midst of what is going on. Your earlier comment that reading these gives a human face to the Iraqi people. It's too bad that someone capable of writing (or believing) this wasn't among the people charged with uniting the country.

He sounds like he loves Iraq too much to leave it and too much not to criticise it when it has gone so wrong. I can see why he's your favorite Iragi blogger.