When is it too late

[sandnsea]

Do you ever think about that? The absolute last straw? The line past where all other lines have been drawn? The time when we either storm the White House or leave the country?

Do you guys think about that and do you have any set markers in your mind?

Just curious.

[ray of light]

1. Think about it all the time.

Some people think a revolution has to happen now that they stole the voting machine and the media too.

[JI7]

2. if there was it should have been Katrina

they have been horrible with Iraq. but it's an area people are not really informed about and they are easily led around by emotional things such as if we don't do this or that , another 9/11 will happen.

but Katrina was a bit different. people were/ARE suffereing and dying in their own homes, in the most powerful, wealthiest nation on the planet. yet the "people's govt" did nothing to help them.

if this happened in any other nation i doubt the administration would still be in office. while people may not have approved of the response, i don't think enough would think it was something the administration should resign over either.

[Island Blue]

3. I think about it a lot too.

Unfortunately, no one else around me seems to be thinking the same way. (Even though I do have some really good liberal friends.) Most of the people that I come in contact with are happy and content in the realities they've created for themselves. They don't seem to be spending a lot of time thinking about the things that have obviously gone horribly wrong in this country. It's not that they don't care, they certainly do - I suppose it's just the survival, self-preservation mechanism kicking in.

Of course that's just me. I'm sure some of you know lots of people who are standing with pitch forks in hand, waiting for the Revolution to begin. I wish I knew more of those folks.

[ProSense]

4. Any minute now

Really, can anyone envision discussing what Bush plans to do about Iraq for the next three years? A friggin frightening thought.

[TayTay]

5. There are a lot of ways for the 'last straw' to be reached

Not all of them favor the left side of the political spectrum. There is an argument to be made that the rise of groups like 'The Minutemen' who are patrolling the American borders is a 'last straw' effort. The Rethugs are trying to channel this anger at illegal immigrants and steer it far, far away from any responsibility that employers have for using this illegal worker force to keep wages down. (This is a classic Rethug move, get made at the Dems who make it easy for illegal immigrants to come into this country and betray the American worker by not punishing the illegals enough when they are caught. Dems can't be counted on to stand up for working people.)

There is an argument to be made that this is a 'last straw' for many people. It is a very dangerous discussion in a Democracy and tends to favor that kind of populism that looks for scapegoats and is regressive in outlook and purpose.

Be careful what you wish for, most populist political movements are not happy events that result in Democracy being restored and everyone getting excellent civil rights and such. Many such movements result in severe restrictions being imposed in the name of order and stability and with the rise of 'strong men' like Huey Long in Louisiana. Be very careful of this, particularly if wages continue to stay stagnant and the RW continues to play with very dangerous fire in the way of blaming immigrants for a lot of the job problems. (The RW should know this. What was the Dubai Ports debacle but blowback from the dangerous games they have been playing with the Arab racist cards.)

Notable populists in American history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Coughlin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huey_Long

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Michael_Curley

[JohnKleeb]

6. Ah the minuitemen

I live in a town with a huge amount of ethnic diversity and there's been a lot of controversy lately over this place where undocumented workers go to work and such, they even had Jim Gilichrist and Tom Tancredo speak recently. This is true about populist movements though, and I am going to be starting to read All The King's Men soon for my Us History class. I know about Father Coughlin too, the once ethauistic New Dealer turned Hitler supporting bigot. I did read part of book that discussed right wing populism.

[TayTay]

7. This kind of thing is endemic to democracies.

The genius of the American Democracy has always been that sacred little list of ten articles amended to the Constitution called, the Bill of Rights. This is what made the American Democracy thrive, though there have always been setbacks. (And there always will be. RW populism and large scale scapegoating of minority viewpoints and people is endemic and central to democracy. It's what you call a downside that you are not taught in High School history classes.)

Be careful what you wish for. A citizen uprising in American might well be very, very restrictive in nature and call for restricting the rights of minority viewpoints and people. The recent spate of anti-gay marriage initiatives is, at it's heart, a populist uprising, albeit one that was goaded by RW interests bent on cynically influencing populism away from the left. The same thing probably will happen with immigration issues. It is a central flaw of democracy.

[JohnKleeb]

8. Thats why I am kind of cautious

Speaking of the gay marriage thing, the American Family Assosication recently announced it would be boycotting Ford Motors becasue they have diversity training videos and have endorsed in gay parades. The way I've been seeing and reading things, if you go to extreme on anything it can go bad even if it's well intentioned. Take the progressive era at the turn of the 19th century and early 20th century, one of it's fundamental issues was Prohibition, they saw alcohol as the root of all evil in society but alcohol wasn't the problem, the problem was that society was mostly Haves and Haves not and the government was in the pocket of big businessmen. Populism actually can either be left or right, it's really shades of gray, the Populists of the turn of the century yes were fighting for the small farmer but they also were quite socially conservative, skeptical of immigrants and such. I thought of something else though when writing this, and thats how racism and how it works can be traced back to Bacon's Rebellion in my own Virginia.

[TayTay]

9. This goes back to the point of when is people revolt in this country

and what form those revolts tend to take. The left seems to think that people will say, "we've had enough and aren't going to take it anymore." Be careful with that. It could easily wind up with scapegoating and the targeting of minority groups as those who 'brought us down.' KKKarl Rove is a master at turning discontent into Rethug votes. He is exploiting the anger that is out there and shaping it to his purposes. Democracies are inherently vulnerable to this.

Democracy is the worst form of government on earth, save all the others.

[JohnKleeb]

10. Yeah I see what you mean

Yeah minorities and such can be an easy targets. Democracy is easily the most unpredictable form of goverment. You can divert from real issues that matter to people's well being by distracting them, just like with gay marriage, people were upset that they had lost their jobs during Bush's first term but then many republican state legislatures pushed these gay marriage referdums and many Americans are still uneasy when it comes to gays and gay marriage especially so someone who would have normally supported Kerry in 2004 went to Bush becasue they were afraid gays would get married.

[TayTay]

11. Hey Kleeb, did you ever hear this JK speech from last Dec?

In it Sen. Kerry talks about how hard it is to stabilize the Middle East and why. Some of the reasons dovetail with what we are talking about in the US. (People are people everywhere. The problems we have in the US are not that unique in the world, after all.)

http://www.cfr.org/publication/9397/real_security_in_a_post911_world_audio.html

Give this a serious listen sometime. It was easily the best and meatiest speech I heard all last year on Iraq and the future of the ME. Easily. (Damn.)

[JohnKleeb]

12. No but will do

I am sure it's great and I'll listen to it sometime soon.

[sandnsea]

20. True

But I think each person ought to have their own personal line, know what I mean? Something that says unequivically, enough and no more. I don't know what mine is and was wondering if others actually had a specific thing that they've decided would be their final warning, can't go any further, sort of thing.

[ginnyinWI]

13. I'm an optimist--can't help it

I'm always looking for things to get better right around the corner. So it would have to get pretty bad for me to give up and leave. The glass is always half full to me. :)

In the past, wild political swings have self-corrected, and I think we're on another swing to the far right which has gone about as far as it's going to, the last one being the McCarthy witch-hunts. This latest one has been allowed because of the 9/11 attacks, which made people forget reason and go with emotion--but they're waking up now. There is something really wrong when far-right religious groups are attempting to set policy for the nation--the rest of us won't stand for it for long. Terry Shiavo, indeed! And the attempt to change Social Security, and the Medicare debacle, and Katrina, Tom Delay, Jack Abramoff, the warrantless spying on Americans, and everything topped off with the Dubai Ports deal! People care about these things even out in Middle America. It's not the America they want. If we need any more proof: look at how many people voted for John Kerry--more than any other Democrat in history. They wanted a change, wanted to get rid of what they saw as a corrupt, power-grabbing government.

If *'s approval ratings were high right now, I'd be more worried--but they're in free-fall. People are realizing what we've lost since this power-grab began. It always takes a while for it to percolate down through the media, but eventually it does. It took a lot longer for people to turn against the Vietnam war, but eventually they did. And now they're turning their backs on * and his minions. As long as * keeps on being the same (and I can't imagine him doing more than wrapping another layer of PR around his craven little policies) the people will keep walking away. Among other things he's ruined or tried to ruin is the GOP. They are stained with a stain that will take some time to get rid of! Their policies have had free rein and have failed. There isn't much to hide behind--they have simply not worked. And enough of the individuals in the party have shown themselves to be corrupt, causing further disgust with the Republican party.

So try to take the long view: we'll get through this. We know they can't govern; it's only a matter of time before they'll be out. It really does look darkest before the dawn. I don't know if you saw "Good Night and Good Luck"--but those were some dark days that people probably thought would never get better--but a decade later we had civil rights, women's rights and a huge protest of the war all going forward at breakneck speed. This country runs into obstacles to progress, but then when the barrier gets removed, it leaps forward to make up for the delay! We have several fronts building up pressure right now behind the barrier: stem cell research, gay rights, and renewable energy being just a few. Just wait until we get rid of the Luddites who are in charge right now!!

I didn't mean to write a book! But I really believe in this. :)

[whometense]

16. I'm glad you wrote that book.

I believe it too, but sometimes I lose sight of my hope. I admit to have been suffering recently from a deficit of humor - and also a deficit of goodwill towards my fellow countrymen. For me it's not so much "I told you so" as it is "How can you not have seen this coming?"

But I do also believe in the swinging pendulum theory - I've been watching it swing back and forth on education theory for years now, and professional thought really does seem to reach an extreme that can't be sustained - an overreach, and then it swings back to the center (and eventually the opposite extreme).

The voting system is a big worry, though.

And as for the media - did you see this Keith Olbermann clip? It made me laugh out loud. http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/03/20.html#a7595

[ginnyinWI]

18. yeah that was a good one

I try never to miss KO lately--he's my "comic relief" at the absurdity of this administration. Truth to power. ;)

[ProSense]

17. Well said.

Democracy is a process that includes everything from elections to protest and public outrage. Eventually, it leads to change and justice (I think about the Civil Rights movement). The process is slow, but in the end it's worth it. I remember when no one believed Tom DeLay's day would come.

Also, a good thing is happening: a lot of people are becoming aware of the insidious forces that have been working against democracy, specifically the evil, greedy people like Ralph Reed, Grover Norquist, etc. A lot of bad has been exposed. There was a time that no one knew, or cared, who owned the media.

The bad thing about process is that we have to put up with one more day of the bad things we want changed.

[sandnsea]

19. Sometimes I wonder if it's "wishful thinking"

I tell myself all of that too. But then there are times I look at the totality of it and it is just mind-boggling. It is like 50 McCarthy's, all at once. And we just hum along. I wonder what it would take for the entire country to really rise up and say STOP. I don't mean a literal civil war, but some kind of mass movement that would alter the course of events. That even Congress couldn't ignore. I kind of see signs of being in the darkness of the 50's with some undercurrents indicating a sort of "60's renaissance", but I also see signs of a willingness to continue muddling along and not rocking the boat.

Anyway, my question was actually a bit more specific. What would be a tipping point for each individual person. If "X" happened, I would be in DC tomorrow sort of thing. I really don't know what mine is, I suppose I'd have thought any number of things would have driven that response; and yet nothing has.

[Sick_of_Rethuggery]

14. Two things have to happen:

1. Elected Dems must present a united/consistent/concerted front against the dangerous/suicidal Rethug excesses. At some point, this business of giving them the benefit of the doubt should stop, in order to make it clear to the people (who are usually short of time, resources and the inclination to know the details necessary to be truly outraged) what really is going on behind all the rhetoric (ofcourse, if people were more educated/tolerant, they would find even the rhetoric sufficient cause to revolt). Part of this unity/consistency must also be standing up for each other, especially when they are being unfairly charaterized/caricatured by the media...

2. The media, whom the people by and large, (at least subconsciously/instinctively) trust enough to take their cues from, must start being the watchdogs they are supposed to be on behalf of the people: would we get the sense that anything is seriously amiss in this country if we watched just the evening news and/or FAUX/CNN/MSRNC? If these people (the media) keep equating/conflating serious, felonious behavior of the Rethugs with personal/silly transgressions of the Dems, a casual listener is apt to notice no difference between the two parties.

Neither seems a possibility in the near future...

[Blaukraut]

15. It varies for different people

Some of us have a lower threshold of what we feel is acceptable, whereas others won't rise up at all. That's really a big problem - as long as we cannot, as a group, decide 'ok, this is it. We've had enough' there will be no revolt. It's difficult to set an arbitrary cut-off point with so many different mindsets and ideologies at work.
TayTay also has a point in saying; 'be careful what you wish for'. A revolution could go both ways - it could either bring about a desired result, or aggravate the problem.

[sandnsea]

21. Bonus Army

I'm really talking more about things like the Bonus Camps in DC during the Depression, where the vets just went to DC and refused to leave until they got their pay. That sort of thing.

[TayTay]

22. That was desperate circumstances

We have had those at other times in American History. The problem with this is that the bad things that are happening have to reach deeply into the middle and low income groups to have this kind of galvanizing effect.

However, this might just do the trick:

Will Your Job Survive?

By Harold Meyerson
Wednesday, March 22, 2006; A21



In case you've been worrying about how the war in Iraq will end, or the coming of avian flu, or the extinction of the universe as we drift into the cosmic void, well, relax. Here's something you should really fret about: the future of the U.S. economy in the age of globalization.

For a discussion of same, let me call your attention to an article in the March-April issue of Foreign Affairs by Princeton University economist Alan Blinder. The vice chairman of the Federal Reserve's board of governors from 1994 to 1996, Blinder is the most mainstream of economists, which makes his squawk of alarm all the more jarring. But the man has crunched the numbers, and what he's found is sure to induce queasiness.

In the new global order, Blinder writes, not just manufacturing jobs but a large number of service jobs will be performed in cheaper climes. Indeed, only hands-on or face-to-face services look safe. "Janitors and crane operators are probably immune to foreign competition," Blinder writes, "accountants and computer programmers are not."

There follow some back-of-the-envelope calculations as Blinder totes up the number of jobs in tradable and non-tradable sectors. Then comes his (necessarily imprecise) bottom line: "The total number of current U.S. service-sector jobs that will be susceptible to offshoring in the electronic future is two to three times the total number of current manufacturing jobs (which is about 14 million)." As Blinder believes that all those manufacturing jobs are offshorable, too, the grand total of American jobs that could be bound for Bangalore or Bangladesh is somewhere between 42 million and 56 million. That doesn't mean all those jobs are going to be exported. It does mean that the Americans performing them will be in competition with people who will do the same work for a whole lot less.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/21/AR2006032101133_pf.html

[jillan]

23. When we have a pre-emptive strike on Iran.

I am extremely fearful of nukes, as we all are.
Must be from all of those years hiding under my desk in elementary school
with screeching sirens going thru the building.

But when they invade Iran, will there be anywhere safe?

[ginnyinWI]

24. they won't--they can't

At least that's what Zbigniew Brzezinski said on Sunday. He said Iran is three times the size of Iraq, with many more people and resources. Our military can't knock out their nuclear plants because they are scattered and underground. There simply is no easy way to force Iran to do anything--and our people have got to know this.
That's why * is suddenly talking about the value of diplomacy. A bully only picks on the weak--he thought Iraq would be a cake walk, like Desert Storm was, or he wouldn't have found that cause so appealing. I don't think anyone, even a most deluded * believes that Iran would be easy. We have not got the troops, the money or the public will for anything that horrific.