Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

[IronLionZion]

Do you guys think his experiences in the Hitler Youth and the Nazi Wehrmacht might be an issue during conclave? Obviously he was just a teenager, was drafted, and didn't kill anyone. But that is some heavy stuff for a leader of the Catholic church. Do you have any thoughts or information on this issue?



I hope I'm being very clear in saying that I'm not accusing him of anything, and am not interested in rumors either.

But this man has an excellent chance of becoming the next Pope. He was basically John Paul II's right hand man in the later years. Papal terms go long-short-long-short. John Paul II's term was long and Ratzinger turns 78 this month so his term will be short.

Just some stuff to think about

[DemBones DemBones]

1. I don't think the Conclave will turn to Ratzinger. I think they'll

surprise us, as usual.

[regnaD kciN]

5. I pray you're right...

Right now, I see very little hope of getting a new Pontiff who will be anywhere to the left of JPII. I'm just hoping that, since they'll likely pick a conservative, at least they'll choose one with a sense of humility, and not one who figures he knows all the answers to the Church's problems and is eager to start issuing ex cathedra ("infallible," for those new to this group) proclamations to impose them -- a description which, IMHO, fits Ratzinger well.

:scared:

[DemBones DemBones]

25. Papal infallibility has only been invoked twice in the history of

the Church so I wouldn't worry too much about a new pope acting rashly.

Two thousand years, two ex cathedra pronouncements.

[hedgehog]

43. But infallibility has only been a doctrine since the 1st Vatican

Council.

[AngryOldDem]

18. They won't

Ratzinger, I think, is too ensconced the Vatican, in the politics, that he would not be a good choice -- too much of a "company man," if you will. Same with Soldano, who has also been mentioned. They are already in important roles and are relatively "good" at what they do (opinions may differ on this, of course, especially with Ratzinger).

My biggest fear is that whoever gets elected will find himself at severe loggerheads with the American Church, probably sooner rather than later. I saw the story about the changes that the American Church wants to see, and none of it is happening anytime soon. I don't know if these unrealistic expectations will be used by some to further press divisions with Rome, but I don't see any kind of honeymoon period between some American Catholics and the new Pope. The big question is, will this lead to schism?

EDIT: Word fix

[Tweed]

2. Ratzinger pisses off Republican Catholics

who think he's TOO conversative. He won't be picked. I'm guessing a South American will get the nod.

[IronLionZion]

36. Too conservative for Republicans!

that's scary! :wow: :scared:

[JohnKleeb]

3. I had no idea he was in the Hitler Youth

I hope its not him but I agree with DBDB. Hopefully they will choose someone younger and from a third world country or who knows that one most of social libs like too.

[AngryOldDem]

19. Economic concerns will be front and center...

...regardless of who gets it, because the successor will be from the Third World.

It's said that Catholic Social Teaching is the Church's best kept secret. That is about to change, and about high time, in my opinion.

[Princess Turandot]

4. I've read that he is not exactly the most popular Cardinal ..

among his brethren, which would be an impediment to his being selected. Of course, he is no spring chicken, but none-the-less, I think he would be an awful choice.

[Cuban_Liberal]

6. At the risk of minor sacrilege.

Please, God, help them choose someone else.

[CBHagman]

11. Your prayer made me laugh (welcome relief these days).

Believe me, I've been praying the same prayer! For years I've spoken of Ratzinger pretty much in the same tones that Harry Potter fans speak of Voldemort (Please don't flame me).

But speaking seriously here, I imagine that they will select a different type of man, possibly someone from the developing world. I rather doubt age will have too much to do with it, since some believe that the next pope should be a caretaker who will have a short reign. Also, I doubt any major candidate is below 60.

The Washington Post had some profiles of potential candidates, including Ratzinger, in Sunday's special section on the pope. Some of the candidates looked very promising. My co-worker is hoping they'll choose the cardinal from Honduras, whose name escapes me at the present time.

[IronLionZion]

14. Here's a WaPost link

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A22639-2005Apr3.html

[Matilda]

16. Ratzinger is Voldemort.

Love it!

[Zynx]

7. Don't worry. He won't be the choice. He's too old.

[UrbScotty]

8. John XXIII was 76 when he was elected.

Granted, he was Pope for just five years, but people live longer, and I'd say Ratzinger has a good 10-15 years left.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

17. I agree, Zynx...

I really think they will go with someone younger, someone less frail. Can you imagine the outcry if they choose someone who was in the hitler youth as a child, guilty of killing anyone or not!?
Duckie

[IronLionZion]

22. Especially right after a very Jewish-friendly Pope

Karol Wojtyla and Joseph Ratzinger were like polar opposites in their early years. Wojtyla had many friends in the Jewish community in Krakow.

[IronLionZion]

23. Yes Duckie, who ever heard of a Nazi Pope?.....

Have you heard of Pope Pius XII? I just heard about this today on Mike Malloy's show and was OUTRAGED :grr:.

Whatever, I'm backing these guys in no special order: Hummes of Brazil, Arinze of Nigeria, Danneels of Belgium, Bergoglio of Argentina

unfortunately no one in the Vatican cares who I support :cry:

[YellowRubberDuckie]

24. Yep, I've heard of him...

Through the years, there have been a few evil popes and cardninals. Their "power" has gone to their head a bit. But it's a different time, and they need to find a pope who will continue JPII's legacy of outreach.

Duckie

[DemBones DemBones]

27. You shouldn't believe everything you hear about Pius XII -- I remember

him and when he died, in 1958, he was widely mourned by Jews because of all he did to save Jewish lives from the Nazis. We had no internet, only three television networks, with half-hour evening news broadcasts but I remember the coverage of Pius's death and that there was a huge reaction around the world, much as there is now. Much talk about what a holy man he was.

Jewish people like Golda Meir, Albert Einstein, and Leonard Bernstein praised Pius XII, going beyond what diplomacy required anyone to say. Thousands of trees were planted in Israel in honor of Pius XII.

Pictures of him with Hitler prove nothing except that Popes meet with world leaders. And by the way, before he was pope, he was assigned to Berlin for years as a Vatican envoy, so he spoke perfect German and would have known many German leaders personally.

Did Mike Malloy tell you that the chief rabbi of Rome was so impressed with what Pius XII did that he converted to Catholicism after the war ended? He also took Pius's name to honor him when he, the former chief rabbi, became a Catholic priest.

[IronLionZion]

28. Yeah, I read that he sheltered Jews in Italy too

I suppose there's wasn't much he could do when Mussolini ruled Italy. And a lot of otherwise good people met with Hitler because he was a country's leader.

Mike Malloy's show is the first time I even heard about this so I don't know what to believe.

[DemBones DemBones]

34. Pius XII was a virtual prisoner in the Vatican when Mussolini and Hitler

were in power. He hid Jews in the Vatican and, on his orders, Jews were hidden in monasteries and convents all over Europe. Priests also gave fake baptismal certificates to Jews so they could pretend to be Christians and escape persecution.

Pope John Paul II made a formal apology to the Jewish people that the Catholic Church had not done more than it did -- but that doesn't mean Pius XII did nothing!

If John Paul II had thought Pius XII in any way was responsible for cooperating with the evils of Nazism and Fascism do you think he'd have supported the cause for the sainthood of Pius XII?

Remember that the young Karol Wotyjla lived through that horrible time, that the Nazis were in Poland and killed many Poles, Jewish and Gentile. Remember that young Karol Wotyjla was good friends with a young Jewish man and so he was always a friend to the Jewish people. Remember that when he became Pope John Paul II, Cardinal Karol Wotyjla also gained access to all the "secret" documents in the Vatican archives. (Which are actually called "secret" meaning "private," not meaning "hidden away for devious reasons," as people often think!) Connecting those dots makes me think he'd never have been an advocate of sainthood for Pius XII if he didn't believe that Pius had done much to fight the Nazis and save Jewish and other lives.

[Sapphire Blue]

30. I'm hoping for Cardinal Bergoglio

Some background in an excerpt from Chiesa...

Jorge Mario Bergoglio, Profession: Servant of the Servants of God

John Paul II made him a cardinal together with the last group of bishops named to the honor, in February of 2001. On that occasion, Bergoglio distinguished himself by his reserve among his many more festive colleagues. Hundreds of Argentinians had begun fundraising efforts to fly to Rome to pay homage to the new man with the red hat. But Bergoglio stopped them. He ordered them to remain in Argentina and distribute the money they had raised to the poor. In Rome, he celebrated his new honor nearly alone - and with Lenten austerity.

He has always lived this way. Since he was made archbishop of the Argentinian capital, the luxurious residence next to the cathedral has remained empty. He lives in a nearby apartment, together with another bishop, old and sickly. In the evening, he himself cooks for both of them. He rarely drives, getting around most of the time by bus, wearing the cassock of an ordinary priest

<snip>

Yet he´s not the type to compromise himself for the public. Every time he speaks, instead, he tries to shake people up and surprise them. In the middle of November, he did not give a learned homily on social justice to the people of Argentina reduced by hunger - he told them to return to the humble teachings of the Ten Commandments and the Beatitudes. "This," he explained, "is the way of Jesus." And as soon as one follows this way seriously, he understands that "to trample upon the dignity of a woman, a man, a child, an elderly person, is a grave sin that cries out to heaven," and he decides not to do it any more.

<snip?

There isn´t a politician, from the right to the extreme left, who isn´t dying for the blessing of Bergoglio. Even the women of Plaza de Mayo, ultraradicals and unbridled anti-catholics, treat him with respect. He has even made inroads with one of them in private meetings. On another occasion, he visited the deathbed of an ex-bishop, Jeronimo Podestá, who had married in defiance of the Church and was dying poor and forgotten by all. From that moment, Mrs. Podestá became one of his devoted fans.

http://www.chiesa.espressonline.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=6893&eng=y

[etherealtruth]

31. Wouldn't that be wonderful? n/t

[Matilda]

37. Ah - he's a Jesuit - I've always admired the Jesuits,

although they're not as independent as they used to be.

[Princess Turandot]

38. Do you truly believe, politics aside, that Hitler would have done a

damn thing differently if a Pope of the Catholic Church told him he was wrong??

I have no idea whether Pius XII was an anti-semite or a guy trying to cover his ass or the asses of his priests. I don't believe for a nanosecond that he could have stopped Hitler. The Germans were already at the point of turning a blind eye upon atrocities; dumping a few more Catholic priests into the camps would not have caused a popular uprising. Adolf Hitler was either insane or the reincarnation of pure evil. If Pius XII did not martyr himself on the occasion of Hitler's rise to power, that was a conversation between him and God, when Pius died.During WW2, there was nothing any cleric could have done to stop Hitler except to kill him.Would the world admire Pius XII instead of condemn him if he preached against the Nazis? Certainly. Would JP II as pope have acted differently? Probably. Would it have stopped the carnage of 50 million people? I don't think so.

One could make an argument that the governments of democracy, the ones with guns, could have stepped in earlier, on a practical basis, not just morality, to save lives. They did not do so. Thank God that the Japanese were nuts enough to attack the US. Had that not happened, who knows where the world would be today.

[UrbScotty]

9. I just don't see 78 cardinals voting for Ratzinger.

I just don't.

Having said that, I couldn't see 60 million people voting for Bush.

[etherealtruth]

10. Not a comforting thought ...

[IronLionZion]

12. The fundie wing of the American church is supporting Ratzinger

that's reason enough to oppose him.

[etherealtruth]

13. Well, of course they are...

She posted with sarcasm...

I do not know where his heart was with in the Nazi youth, or if his heart changed ... or I just would prefer to not have a former Nazi (anything) as Pope.

I would also pray that the clergy from my country NOT support a former Nazi for pope.

Sorry for stating what "everyone" has stated before. I came in here to escape some "weird" Catholic bashing in the GD and saw this and thought this really makes the Church look good...

[IronLionZion]

15. nobody in the Vatican cares who our clergy supports

(I hope)

If the Americans support someone, then he probably won't get it. I know we supported Karol Wojtyla and he got it but that was way back in the 70's.

I think it's wonderful to have a culturally diverse field. If only we had that in our presidential elections.

We won't see much ideological diversity, but it would be good for the church to elect a non-European who will give hope to the poor around the world. 2/3 of our billion catholics are non-white (including me) so it would be an inspiration for all of us.

[AngryOldDem]

20. And they would love to see the Church

taken right back out of the world, where people worship and live in private piety.

I can't think of a bigger affront to the memory of John Paul II than that.

[CBHagman]

21. Wait. We have a fundie wing in the church?

Why doesn't anyone tell me anything? I got the message about no cell phones at Mass, but the fundie wing...must have missed that part of the bulletin. ;-)

[DemBones DemBones]

26. No cell phones at Mass? Who are these people to tell us what to do?

B-)

We have a lot of physicians in our parish and eight or ten years ago, the 9: 30 and 11 a.m. Masses, in particular, used to have pagers going off regularly.

Then the "stun" function was invented for pagers and there was silence. And it was good.

[CBHagman]

32. Last Sunday was purely cell phone-free...

...at least during Mass. Saint Matthew's in DC was mobbed at 5:30 Mass, literally overflowing. People had placed flowers before the bust of John Paul II and came to pray before it.

I didn't hear a single cell phone going off during Mass, not once.

Bad behavior will probably resume right on schedule, though.

[Cuban_Liberal]

40. An anecdote:

At Mass about 2 years ago, a physician member of our congregation's cell phone went off quite loudly; Msgr. stopped everything, turned and looked at Dr. Baggio and said, "Go ahead an answer, doctor--- we'll all wait". From that day forward, Dr. Baggio has kept his cell phone on 'vibrate', when at Mass.

:P

[Kellanved]

29. I believe he will remain behind the scenes

Here is a pretty good article about the split in the German clergy:
http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=26&story_id=18687&name=The+German+headache

[DemBones DemBones]

33. That was a good article, explaining the usual rifts between

liberal and conservative clergy.


"Curiously, John Paul continued to the end of his life to command huge respect among Germans as a holy figure. Opinion polls repeatedly showed him as a leading role model, and his adamant opposition in 2002-2003 to the Iraq War won him many friends in Germany."

Germans on the political left, most of whom are not Catholic, also liked his consistent stance against the evils of globalisation.

German Catholics are likely to raise the abortion counselling issue, as well as demands for faster progress on ecumenism, greater rights for local churches and relaxation in priesthood entry rules in the next papacy."

So Germans did and do love John Paul II, even if they disagree with some Church teachings.

The biggest problem seems to be abortion and I don't quite understand the abortion counselling issue. Can you explain it? I don't understand about the certificates.

"The abortion debate brought the two worlds into open conflict. German clergy are accustomed to their flocks ignoring Vatican teachings against premarital sex and use of contraceptives, and had no hesitation about counselling women even if they were bound for abortion clinics. They would try to persuade them not to abort, but would not demonise women who terminated their pregnancies."



"Militant anti-abortionists complained about this to the Vatican and John Paul insisted that counsellors had to preserve the church's moral purity, withholding all assistance to women bent on abortion. In particular, they were not to be given certificates that would help the women complete the pre-abortion legal paperwork." "

Why should priests have to do anything to help women complete pre-abortion legal paperwork when abortion is against the teaching of the Church? That would constitute being an accessory to murder in the view of the Church and forcing priests to do this would be morally akin to forcing a doctor or nurse to participate in performing an abortion.

[Kellanved]

35. Obviously the German Bishops had a more realistic view

In Germany, in order for an abortion to be performed, the woman has to seek advice from a registered councilor.

Cardinal Lehmann's and the Bishop conference's reasoning in offering registered council was that, unlike the private ones, the Catholic counselors /priests would be interested in and able to sway the women seeking an abortion.

And the general consensus was/is, that the church should not leave people in distress alone, not even in the inner conflict around an abortion - demonizing helps nobody and can hardly be considered Christian.

This was -and for the major part still is- a valid perspective on the Vatican's teachings used by the German Catholic church.
The church may have different teachings in different countries, until the Pope speaks, those are quite open to interpretation.


In this case, it was seen as Ratzinger, being unable to get a majority for his outdated ramblings in the very sane and very liberal German Bishop's conference, running to the Vatican to use his major influence there instead of his less-overwhelming influence in the German church.

[UrbScotty]

39. AP: Ratzinger divides Germans

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-pope-ratzingers-roots,0,6330000.story?coll=sns-ap-nationworld-headlines

But opinion about him remains deeply divided in Germany, a sharp contrast to John Paul, who was revered in his native Poland. A recent poll for Der Spiegel news weekly showed Germans opposed to him becoming pope outnumbered supporters 36 percent to 29 percent. Another 17 percent didn't care. The poll of 1,000 people, taken April 5-7, gave no margin of error.

Many blame Ratzinger for decrees from Rome barring Catholic priests from counseling pregnant teens on their options and blocking German Catholics from sharing communion with their Lutheran brethren at a joint gathering in 2003.

Ratzinger has clashed with prominent theologians at home, most notably the liberal Hans Kueng, who helped him get a teaching post at the University of Tuebingen in the 1960s. The cardinal later publicly criticized Kueng, whose license to teach theology was revoked by the Vatican in 1979.

He has also sparred openly in articles with fellow German Cardinal Walter Kasper, a moderate who has urged less centralized church governance and is considered a dark horse papal candidate.

[Stunster]

41. I doubt it will be Ratzinger

but if it is, at least he's prepared to move in a progressive direction as regards divorced and remarried Catholics.

Yes, you heard me right the first time.

Here's a quote from his book Salt of the Earth:

"The principles have been decided, but factual questions, individual questions, are of course always possible. For example, perhaps in the future there could also be an extrajudicial determination that the first marriage did not exist. This could perhaps be ascertained locally by experienced pastors. Such juridical developments, which can make things less complicated, are conceivable."

Don't forget that Ratzinger was a '60s liberal at Vat2.

The rest of this excerpt from that book is quite interesting:
http://catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0633.html

[Sapphire Blue]

42. "If he is elected, hell will freeze over before there is any change."

From nationnews.com...

Then there’s Joseph Ratzinger, 78, of Germany, who has served as the dreaded watchdog of doctrinal orthodoxy at the Vatican since 1981 and epitomises the authoritarian, anti-reform tendencies of the Roman Curia.

If he is elected, hell will freeze over before there is any change.

http://www.nationnews.com/StoryView.cfm?Record=59687&Section=LO

[DemBones DemBones]

44. Here's what we need to remember:

John Paul II was no friend to totalitarians, either Nazis or communists, and he trusted Joseph Ratzinger. The Conclave could do worse than choose Cardinal Ratzinger. Of course, they could also do better, and that is my hope. Popes are kind of like Supreme Court justices, though; they may be nothing like is expected when they're selected.