The Traditional Latin Mass

[tjwmason]

I've heard a few people speculate that the Traditional Latin Mass (T.L.M., also called Tridentine) may be made more available by Pope Benedict. By indult it was allowed for retired Priests, and on special occasions in England and Wales; then Pope John Paul II allowed Bishops to give permission for it.

As Cardinal Ratzinger, the Holy Father celebrated a Solemn Pontifical Mass for the F.S.S.P. (one of a few groups of Priests which only celebrate the T.L.M.), and he wrote that it should not have been suppressed back in the '70s.

I have attended the T.L.M. on a few occasions, and found it to be a most moving event and would love to see it sitting alongside the modern Rite.

Do others have any experience of the T.L.M. or opinions about it?

[Cuban_Liberal]

1. I love it.

We have the bishop's permission to have it once a week, and I find it to be a most solemn and moving experience.

:)

[DemBones DemBones]

2. I never understood why it was dropped when

Tridentine could have coexisted quite peacefully with Novus Ordo. That action of the Church has nearly killed the study of Latin. Most Catholic schools no longer teach it, priests don't know it, and public schools rarely teach it, either. A sad state.

:puffpiece: I loved learning Latin in school and actually, ahem, competed in the Mid-South Latin Tournament twice.

I also loved attending Mass with Catholic friends pre-Vatican II when any Mass was Latin Mass! I also loved knowing that the liturgy was the same everywhere in the world, the same Latin words, no matter what language the homily and announcements were in.

Added on Edit: I can't say for sure, but I might have converted in my twenties instead of my forties if it hadn't been for Vatican II taking away the Latin Mass and so much else! I also can't stand how some new Catholic churches look like airport waiting rooms -- no statues, no stained glass, a modernistic tabernacle, etc. Some traditions are worth preserving and beauty is always important. I do not mean that modern can't be beautiful, just that it often isn't. We no longer think it's worth it to build things that take centuries to complete, which is why Europe has such incredible cathedrals. Some people got carried away, thinking Vatican II meant change everything. Big mistake!

I do see that people attending Mass in churches too poor to have missals in the pews and illiterate people can better appreciate having the liturgy in their own language but anyone else could just read the translation in the missal. Besides, as I understand it from people who grew up Catholic pre-Vatican II, kids were taught the meaning of Latin prayers, phrases, hymns, etc. in CCD when they were fairly young.

I very much hope Benedict XVI will allow more frequent celebration of the Tridentine Mass. People shouldn't have to drive long distances to get to a parish with a Latin Mass

[Matilda]

5. I also enjoyed learning Latin,

but I didn't reach your standard DemBones. One of the things I
don't like about the Novus Ordo Mass is the poor quality of the
liturgy. I think it was written for kindergarten level, and all
the beauty has disappeared.

I was living in London in the mid to late sixties, during the change-
over period, and there was a rule that one mass every Sunday had to
be the traditional Latin mass. Although it was longer, we often
chose that one simply because of its beauty. I thought that was a
good rule - you could choose whichever mass appealed on the day.
But that was before the TLM was outlawed.

I also found that when I first travelled to Europe and most places
still had a Latin mass, it was possible to take part, but by the
late sixties, everything was in the vernacular, and while you could
follow the mass in another language, you couldn't actualy take part
in the prayers - it does make a difference.

I do like the greater involvement of the people in the Novus Ordo
mass, and it's nice to see the priest's face instead of his back.
I guess there's pluses and minuses with both, but a greater choice
would be good.

[DemBones DemBones]

13. I don't know about reaching any standard, Matilda, except

being one of those chosen to compete for my school -- I just like to say I competed in the Mid-South Latin Tournament because it sounds funny!

I agree that a lot of the beauty went out of the Mass when Novus Ordo was made the norm. No doubt some things were literally lost in the translation, too. Before Communion, we now say "Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed" but in Latin what we said translates to "Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed." It is an important distinction. Not one I discovered, but one I read about in Thomas More's "Care of the Soul."

[UrbScotty]

3. I've never been to one, but perhaps it would be neat to go to one.

I'll have to see if they have it in West Michigan.

[Princess Turandot]

4. It was the Mass of my childhood..

I always liked it. We had Missals with the latin on the left and the english on the right. You knew what the priest was saying. (Kind of opera librettos! And similarly if you know an opera in the language it was written in, hearing it in a different language really sounds off!)

While I understood why they were doing it, I thought it was unfortunate that they spoke over the latin during the new Pope's installation Mass to translate it into english.At least they did not translate the Our Father. I guess they figured most people knew the prayer already.


Some people think that the attraction of Catholics to evangelical and pentacostal movements (the ordinary ones, not the whackos) is in part due to the diminishment of the ritual in the Catholic Mass.


I decided to go looking for a recording of the regular 20th century mass in latin. I have recordings of Masses in latin from prior centuries but they always involve special composing for some event and are not the Mass I recall.

[demosincebirth]

6. As a former alter boy, in the early 50's, we were something

special, so to speak, because we knew all the prayers and responses in Latin.

[CBHagman]

7. I went to one in DC a few years ago, and...

...I decided I preferred the current Mass. I have attended Masses in several languages and in a number of different countries, and I must confess that this particular Mass did not move me a particle. Perhaps it was the parish I happened to attend, because I've since had a much better experience with the Latin Mass.

But let me ask a question. Are there variations in the Latin Mass? The one I attended at Saint Mary's in Chinatown was listed as Tridentine, and it struck me as completely pre-Vatican II -- i.e, you watch the priest say his prayers, as they say. The Latin Mass at Saint Matthew's was more participatory, and texts were provided.

[DemBones DemBones]

12. Pre-Vatican II, the priest faced the altar during much of the

liturgy, meaning he had his back to the people, the rationale being that he (like the people) was praying to God, not to the congregation. It never bothered me but I did know the rationale and there were always missals available with all the prayers in Latin and English.

[leyton]

8. Okay I am ignorant...

Was the Latin mass dropped or banned altogether?

I hope it will be brought back in some shape or form. I think the Latin language is beautiful, and comes far closer to English to expressing the beauty of the mass.

[Matilda]

9. It was banned by Paul VI.

That always seemed a strange thing to me, as if it was somehow evil.
But an "Indult" was granted by John Paul II allowing for it to be
reinstated in certain instances, principally I think for older
people who had difficulty in adapting to the new Mass.

I did a bit of Googling to find out the history, and I inevitably
came up with a number of traditional Catholic websites, and was
quite amazed by the vitriol in some of them. To them, the Novus
Ordo Mass is a tool of Satan, and we are not true Roman Catholics
at all, but heretics. I'm afraid the language reminded me of the
bad old days of real hatred between Catholics and Protestants, or
indeed people of any other faith at all, and if that's what they're
promoting I wouldn't want a bar of it.

The Novus Ordo Mass can include Latin in the sung parts if there's
a choir, but that seems to be all that's allowed, as using the
vernacular is one of the major changes brought in by Vatican II.

[tjwmason]

11. Not quite

The T.L.M. was never specifically banned, the official line is simply that the Novus Ordo replaced it (just as the 1962 Missal replaced the 1955 Missal) though incidentally there are several holes in this argument.

I agree about the more extreme traditionalists (who do seem to have a large internet presence), there are many loyal trads. including a few Priestly societies which offer exclusively the T.L.M. yet always operate under the purview of the local Bishops. As with any grouping, there are more radical elements which can make rather distasteful statements.

The N.O. can be offered entirely in Latin, though if a Priest suddenly started to do so I suspect that his Bishop would want to have a few words. The principal Sunday Mass at the well-known Brompton Oratory is in Latin except for the O.T. Lesson, the N.T. Lesson, the homily and the prayers of the people. Vatican II merely permitted the gradual introduction of some vernacular into the liturgy.

[CBHagman]

14. That sounds similar to what people write about the Eucharist.

I recall reading a catalogue full of Catholic publications, and a few of them apparently dealt with severe objections to the practice of receiving the Eucharist in one's hands. The rhetoric was unbelievably harsh. Amazing, isn't it, that although we ultimately put the host into our mouths and into our digestive systems, the practice of taking it in the hands is viewed as wrong for lay people (obviously, the priest takes the host in his hands).

We could probably start an entire thread, both here in and Liberal Christians and People of Faith, on the divisive discussions in bodies of believers.

[Matilda]

15. Some of the strongest objections to the Novus Ordo Mass

are about the translations used, especially during the Consecration.
Apparently traditional supporters feel that the actual wording has
watered down the concept of transubstantion, making the Mass more of
a memorial in the Protestant tradition than a true sacrifice.
That's strictly for theologians to discuss, but interesting.

I have read that Pope Benedict is unhappy with much of the wording
of the N.O., and wants to "reform the reforms" to bring the liturgy
closer to traditional Catholic teaching. Perhaps that will become
the mission of his papacy.

[Matilda]

16. I've wondered what the rationale was for the Host

being put into the mouths of the people - was it because we were
considered not fit to touch it with our hands? Some people - mostly
elderly - still receive it that way, and as a Eucharistic
Minister, I have to be on the watch for that - usually, of course
they approach me with their hands folded, so I know what they're going to do.

I also remember that you weren't allowed to chew the Host, and it
often got stuck to the roof of my mouth. Panic - couldn't move it
with a finger!

The biggest advantage of the priest being the only one to give
Communion was that it allowed more time for post-communion
reflection. Nowadays, most priests move on with the Mass pretty
quickly, sometimes while Communion is still going on in some parts
of the church - I'd rather take an extra few minutes for prayer
and reflection.

[DemBones DemBones]

19. I think the rationale is that a priest's hands have been consecrated

and thus are fit to touch the Body of Christ.

The ultra-traditional Catholics are opposed to the use of Eucharistic Ministers, too, and I am also a Eucharistic Minister, Matilda. They point out that we are {b]extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist and therefore shouldn't be administering it on a regular basis but only in extraordinary circumstances, like distributing Communion on days when no priest is present to celebrate Mass. They claim this was never intended as part of Novus Ordo. I don't know how valid their claims are.

I agree with you that we could use more time for post-Communion reflection. That's one real drawback to being a Eucharistic Minister, IMO. Sometimes when I'm Eucharistic Minister at Mass, it seems like I haven't really been to Mass; when you're caught up in the mechanics of the liturgy, you can't get much of a feel for the mystery. Do you ever feel that way?

[hedgehog]

10. Changing the Mass to the vernacular was part of a larger

realization. If we want to see Jesus, look not just at the host, but at the Body of Christ around you. To me, comparing a Latin Mass to the current Mass is akin to comparing a performance of Romeo and Juliet to the sight of a young couple cleaning up after a sick child in the middle of the night. The first is clearly a very beautiful discussion of human love and hate couched in amazing language. The second is Love in action. Both are beautiful, but you have to look harder to see the beauty in the second.

[TrogL]

17. I'd consider switching to Catholic for a Latin Mass

I'm currently Anglo-Catholic and it looks like my church is going under due to all the schisms.

[The Jacobin]

18. We have seen a few Episcipals convert in revent years

In my parish, we have seen Episcipals come to the Catholic Church because of the split on gay marriage. We have even had a married Episcipal priest become a Catholic priest.

The Latin Mass is not common anymore, but can still be found if you are interested in it.