The anti-Catholic bigotry here is utterly sickening

[WildEyedLiberal]

To be fair, it's not just anti-Catholic - it's anti-religion, especially Christianity. Sometimes it's like reading a Chick tract, what with all the screeching about brainwashing cults and every priest being a degenerate pedophile.

I am honestly not sure there is much of a place for me at DU anymore. I've been here four years, and while there have always been loud, ignorant idiots, it seems to be WAY worse now. Or maybe I've just changed and grown disgusted with so much of what is said on this site. I dunno. The only thing I enjoy here anymore are a few of the groups. Maybe I should just forego GD entirely.

[rug]

1. No, stick around.

If you're talking about the Eucharist threads in R/T, they're pretty sophomoric. To be fair, religion, and Catholicism in particular, has earned criticism over time. The problem is the bulk of the comments here have less to do with criticism than they do with uninformed attitudinal bullshit. I don't mind arguing but if you'd rather not, spend five minutes looking for substance in the posts. If there isn't any, leave them to their ways. I've always been told that faith is a gift freely given. I'm content to leave it at that.

In the meantime, here's an antid0te. .

http://youtube.com/watch?v=nzTjY79nGRE&feature=related

Panis angelicus
Fit panis hominum;
Dat panis coelicus
Figuris terminum:
O res mirabilis!
Manducat Dominum
Pauper, servus et humilis.

Te trina Deitas,
Unaque poscimus,
Sic nos tu visita,
Sicut te colimus;
Per tuas semitas
Duc nos quo tendimus,
Ad lucem quam inhabitas.


English translation

The bread of the angels becomes the bread of man;
the bread of heaven is given a bounded form.
O wondrous thing! The poor, the slave
and the humble man feed on their lord.

Of you, threefold and one God, we ask:
Come to visit us as we worship you;
lead us on your paths to where we want to go:
to the light in which you dwell.

[mrs_p]

2. i wish you would stay

i'm still kinda new and totally understand what you are saying. i actually got in an on-line spat with someone vilifying mother teresa and was about to leave too. but then i decided to just ignore the really stupid crap. as someone who has spent a lot of time in catholic circles (even joined a convent in my rebellious youth), i gotta say it is always harder "in the world." but, sometimes that is exactly where we are needed. whatever your choice, though, i wish you the best...

[CBHagman]

3. I hope you'll stick around.

One thing I've been struck by lately, and not just at DU, is the degree to which online discussions and discussions in everyday life, at least here in the U.S., can be dominated by people's tendency to rely on simple explanations, shorthand, and out-and-out scapegoating to manage their understanding of the world. I had thought it was mostly the province of certain political mind-sets, but I'm finding it's more common and takes more forms than I'd ever imagined.

You know the type of thing. The world would be great if it weren't for those people. In fact, at Mass last night the Gospel was the parable of the tares sown among the wheat (with the landowner insisting on waiting until the wheat was harvested before separating out the tares), and the priest built his homily around our tendency to see things in stark terms rather than with compassion and an eye towards our flawed humanity. He cited the Jungian concept of the shadow (all the parts of ourselves that we'd rather not acknowledge).

While he didn't mention Bush's "You're either with us or against us" specifically, he might just as well have, because he implied that even dealing with terrorism was not just a stark good-versus-evil issue. And he specifically noted that the congregation no doubt held both liberals and conservatives, and that both groups would probably rather not deal with each other.

So I think it's more important that you share when you can, stay out of certain fora if they really are too stressful. But it's a loss to the rest of us if you go away altogether, so I hope you will consider sticking around.

[nxylas]

4. I think a lot of people think the South Park episode on Catholic sex scandals was a documentary

The one where Priest Maxi is told that molesting children is part of the Vatican Code by the Great Queen Spider.

[hedgehog]

5. It also gets pretty silly at times. A lot of the people who post

anti-Catholic items stopped thinking sometime around 7th grade.

[JNelson6563]

6. I'm an atheist but hold your fire!

*waves white flag*

While I have seen a lot of threads where the comments are deemed "anti-Christian" where I just didn't see it and believe there's a great deal of over-sensitivity on the matter, I agree 1000% that the anti-Catholic sentiment here is way over the top all too often.

I grew up Catholic and, to be honest with you, never had any problems with the church. I have alerted on countless threads that had one purpose: smearing Catholics/the Catholic church. Happily many of them have been shut down soon after I sent the alert.

I'm with you on this, it's out of hand. While I believe atheists are one of the groups that it's not only ok to criticize/discrimate against, it's encouraged by many, I also see the Catholic smearing that is so blatant and rampant. Terrible.

Julie--the Catholic atheist (???)

[WildEyedLiberal]

13. That's exactly it - it's not disagreement, it's pure hatred and smearing

I have never expected the majority of DUers to agree with or care about Catholic doctrine. Hell, there's more than plenty I disagree with. But their criticisms aren't about the Church's social positions or doctrine. It's the truly nasty, vile, bigoted cracks I can't stand - the accusations that the church is an evil cult that brainwashes its adherents and secretly manipulates the world order to do its nefarious bidding, the constant "all priests are pedophiles" jokes, the "OMG the Pope is a Nazi" comments. Frankly, the tenor of the anti-Catholicism on DU reminds me of particularly pernicious anti-Semitism, with the same allegations of an all-powerful cabal who control the world and who ritually commit unspeakable atrocities against children. Attacks and slander this vicious would not be tolerated were the target ANY minority religious group. You don't see DUers repeating the "blood libel" smear against Jews or insinuating that Muslims condone the murder of innocents so they can have a harem of virgins in heaven, but when it comes to the Catholic Church, all bets are off.

[JNelson6563]

15. It goes to show

we have a long way to go in regard to reaching a level of civil and productive dialogue. Even between people wupposedly "on the same side". Sad.

If I believed that there was a God, I'm certan this God would be rather dismayed at how we treat one another. Quick to alienate, slow to listen to, respect and work with toward our common goals.

Julie

[mrs_p]

16. i whole-heartedly agree

thanks for words

[FarLeftRage]

7. I have left DU for months on end

Just because of all of the Anti-Catholic ignorance that is posted almost daily here.
All of these ignoramuses ended up on my ignore list and sooner or later they got their well-deserved granite cookie.

And unfortunately, some are still here...

Keep alerting on 'em, put 'em on ignore and hope that they get tomb-stoned...

No progressive website should ever have or tolerate religious bigotry...

[FarLeftRage]

22. And it continues

The hate is still here...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

8. If an Episcopalian may add a comment:

the "let's take out our frustrations by making broad-brush criticisms of religion" mood is so thick today that after seven years on this site, I wonder if I shouldn't just leave. It's almost a feeding frenzy out there.

And if any atheists are lurking here, I'm not claiming "persecution." I'm claiming that you're committing the Original Leftist Sin of condemning people who agree with you on most issues, such as peace and economic justice.

[CBHagman]

9. Geez, if you're wondering whether to leave, it must be hideous.

DU wouldn't be the same without you!

Frankly, I limit my exposure to certain fora, simply because of the kind of behavior you describe. I agree with you wholeheartedly about alerting, and I also sometimes simply call out the behavior.

So I hope you'll stay as well.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

11. Thanks, CB. The feeling has passed

I was feeling rather alone out there, but then JerseyGirlCT and knitter4democracy came along and helped out.

:hi:

[AngryOldDem]

10. I see the Christian bias on DU as cliche.

Utterly boring, utterly kneejerk, utterly pointless, utterly stupid. What they don't see is that they are engaging in the exact same form of extremism that they decry when they bash religion -- any religion. It's just on the other, far side of the same spectrum.

What took the cake for me was the huge debate a few weeks back over Obama's misconstrued opinions on faith-based charities. It's been a long-held truth that faith-based organizations do the best job in the trenches when helping the poor. I won't go into all the reasons for that because all of us here know what they are. But what took my breath away was the assertion by one poster that, rather than faith-based organizations, the government should have more influence in charitable work, and cited LBJ's Great Society as a success.

I've limited my time here on DU because I have concluded that I am just not as smart, witty, and urbane as those who do post here ad nauseam. And you know what? That ain't necessarily a bad thing. But I do wish that those who do think they have all the answers would turn off their computers and get to the business of saving the world -- God knows we need them. :sarcasm:

[Book Lover]

12. Speaking as a former catholic, now atheist, I really do agree

The "every priest is a pedophile!!1!" thing is getting so old, so quickly. I vote that we rational people just stay out of R/T. It's going that way anyway... Has anyone ever participated in an actual discussion of theology in that forum?

[WildEyedLiberal]

14. Oh, I never go into that cesspool

People aren't interested in debating theology in that forum, they're interested in calling the people who disagree with them stupid.

GD is also a cesspool when it comes to any religion-related topic. About the only place on DU that doesn't make my blood pressure spike are these little topic forums. Meaningful debate has long ago vacated this website.

[Dorian Gray]

18. Not really

I spend less and less time there now than I used to. I think that I'm relatively even-handed in my posts there and try not to argue too much.

To be honest, though, I think that GD frustrates me more than RT. At least in RT I know who the posters all are, and even if I feel slightly insulted, I can deal with it. But in GD, there are some threads that have ignorant post followed by ignorant post. All cracks on pedophilia/Razti/The Nazi Pope/deluded sheep/etc. I often don't know why I keep reading. I guess it's my "hairshirt!" ;)

[Joe Chi Minh]

20. It's like racism, a kind of guilty itch that never allows them any peace, until

they can find a kind of captive audience to vent to. I remember when I was a raving anti-Catholic, lapsed-Catholic agnostic, the last straw was when I went to a university atheists' club, only to find it full of Catholics. And not lapsed!!!!

I'm aways struck by these fundies' evidently deep-seated need to harangue believers. Their own site must be extraordinarily boring, as you would expect of any "fundies", but particularly secular ones. They're very dim, not being able to take on board the saddest of truths for them, that the very word, "design", implies both intelligence and purpose.

They're like anemic versions of the Ancient Mariner. "Eftsoons!" quod he. "Unhand me greybeard loon"! No, that was the wedding guest.

Interestingly enough, I saw someone's post the other day complaining that Christians seemed to be finding DU more congenial than in the past. Seems like those complainers have work to day. Never-ending toil. Maybe in preparation for some good old spade work in front of a very hot furnace.

It's good to find atheists on here of a more mature stature, though I suspect they are agnostics. Remember, Christ said that on Judgment Day, there will be people God accepts as his own who protest that they don't know him, have never met him. "What you did....".

And others, the converse.

[Dorian Gray]

17. I think a lot of those people

are ignorant fools who speak before they think. The Pope in China thread is the most indicative of that. It's just stupidly ridiculous.

Sometimes I need to take a break from DU though, especially when the religious "wars" get really bad.

[nyc 4 Biden]

19. I totally agree. . .

I stopped visiting DU for about 6 months earlier this year because I also was fed up with the anti-religion bigotry here. I do feel that it has gotten a little better lately. The blanket statements are really unnecessary and really show some people's ignorance. Not to much mention how ironic it is for "Democrats" to discriminate.

Does anyone here watch The Young Turks? I love that show but sometimes Cenk goes overboard with the anti-religion rhetoric.

[shimmergal]

21. Can you tell where they're coming from?

As an Episcopalian I too have problems with the official Catholic stance on thoese "social issues" but I just put it down to some of the messages from deity having gotten garbled in recent years. <G>

I was just wondering whether most of those anti-Catholic rants you've received come from people with a fundamentalist background (where they might have got it at church), or whether they're from those who are proudly atheist or completely non-religious, I've sadly concluded that in the past quarter-century or more, the ONLY mentions of Christianity in the MSM etc. either 1) equate all Christians with the most rabid form of fundamentalism, or 2) are sbout explosive topics, like pedophile priests (in your church) or the gay bishop controversy (in mine.) No wonder so many people have such warped ideas of what Christianity is about!

What to do about it, I don't know. But please don't leave DU!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

24. Just the other night, there was a column in the Guardian

by a writer who, although not a Christian himself, was fed up with all the religion bashing that was going on.

The responses were telling. There was a lot of caricaturing of religion, and Christianity in particular, as a bunch of "unbelievable fairy tales," peppered with strong disdain for anyone who "believes all that nonsense."

In other words, they're operating entirely from a left brain perspective. They find the doctrines illogical, so they think that all religious people are stupid or deluded.

To me, having religious faith is like falling in love. It's an intense and certain experience, and it may lead to joy and fulfillment, or it may be faith in something unworthy and lead to sorrow and misfortune. But whether it's good or bad, it's not a matter of logic.

You may fall in love with someone, and you cannot explain why this person, who seems ordinary to everyone else, is so special to you, nor can you explain why you are not equally enamored of other people who look or act the same way. You are emotionally bonded to that person, and if he or she is the right person for you, your relationship will be a source of joy and comfort and will bring out the best in both of you. If he or she is not the right person or has deceived you with surface attractiveness and turns out to be evil or otherwise unworthy, you will feel pain that is the next thing to grief.

Whatever the case may be, no one can talk you out of this relationship.

Suppose you are in love, and one of your friends tells you that you are an idiot to be in love with your SO, who, in your friend's eyes, is unattractive. Your friend will not be able to talk you out of the relationship, not even if the reasons are logical. If the bond is genuine and not just a passing infatuation, it will take powerful experiences to disenchant you. To an outsider, you may appear to be crazy.

So why do some people get it and others not? It may have something to do with brain make-up. I know people who are exquisitely sensitive to music and can pick out one instrument hitting a wrong note in the middle of a symphony orchestra or who are sensitive to form and color and can decorate a room or make a garment out of nothing.

I'm sensitive to what we used to call "vibes" in the 1960s. Churches where the clergy are just going through the motions or where the parishioners are at war with one another give me the creeps, and I can't stay in them. Every time I've moved to a new place, I've gone "shopping," and I've known right away which parish just felt right, and I've had marvelous experiences in which a congregation seemed to flow together into one spirit.

I've also experienced the Celtic concept of "thin places," places where the material and spiritual world intersect, not only in Christian holy places but also in sacred spots in Japan and in nature.

I'm wondering if the rest of you even know what I'm talking about, so I'll open the floor for discussion. :-)

[Two Americas]

25. that is great

I feel the same way, and you described it very well.

[DemBones DemBones]

23. It's been that way pretty much since the beginning.

Maybe somewhat less in 2001 than since.

[WildEyedLiberal]

26. Wow - it's worse now than it's ever been

I feel decidedly unwelcome on DU, which seems to have become "Anti-Religion Underground." Maybe I'll just hide out in here until the shitstorm blows over.

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

29. I haven't been here long, but I've noticed the anti-Catholic, anti-religion bias some of our fellows

harbor. But I don't think taking cover is a good course of action. In my own experience, whenever I've dealt with any form of bigotry the bigots have taken silence to mean they are victorious and justified.

I've found that responding to them politely and respectfully usually throws a wrench in their works. A bigot said something horribly inaccurate and biased about the Pope? "Thank you for your concern." What about a comment denigrating our traditions and beliefs? "That's an interesting opinion." Or did they say something completely insulting about us? "Thanks for your point of view." You get the idea. In many cases it confused my opponents into silence or made them a lot more open to actual discussion

[demosincebirth]

30. Good way to respond.

[shrike]

27. I think the Catholic Church may eventually bring the right and the left together

They both hate us, and the enemy of my enemy is my friend, right? Maybe they can all sit around the campfire together, holding hands and singing "Kumbaya," only the lyrics will be changed.

The kind of stuff being said on here right now, btw, would look right at home in a Klan or Know-nothing pamphlet, IMO.

[kwassa]

28. I think the current anger is coming from blowback on Prop 8 support in California

Conservative Roman Catholics are getting much press right now.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/11/09/MNU1140AQQ.DTL

San Francisco Catholic Archbishop George Niederauer orchestrated the Mormon money involvement in passing Yes on Prop 8 in California.

"The June letter from Niederauer drew in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and proved to be a critical move in building a multi-religious coalition - the backbone of the fundraising, organizing and voting support for the successful ballot measure. By bringing together Mormons and Catholics, Niederauer would align the two most powerful religious institutions in the Prop. 8 battle.

then there is the attack on Obama from a couple of different Roman Catholic angles:

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5j-epjBHqtK6FvYWhAwBzReQHZytAD94EBDS00

"COLUMBIA, S.C. (AP) — A South Carolina Roman Catholic priest has told his parishioners that they should refrain from receiving Holy Communion if they voted for Barack Obama because the Democratic president-elect supports abortion, and supporting him "constitutes material cooperation with intrinsic evil.

.............

"Our nation has chosen for its chief executive the most radical pro-abortion politician ever to serve in the United States Senate or to run for president," Newman wrote, referring to Obama by his full name, including his middle name of Hussein."

and this

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5g3zpTbyMmYlf0d9QN3jV7FRZYYmw

"US Catholic bishops warn Obama on abortion


WASHINGTON (AFP) — US Roman Catholic bishops on Wednesday warned president-elect Barack Obama against enacting an "evil law" that would deregulate the "abortion industry", saying it would alienate millions of Americans and sow disunity.

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

31. Perhaps. But I would like to point out that a few scholars have noted that

anti-Catholicism seems to be the last acceptable prejudice in the United States. Philip Jenkins wrote a book on the subject back in 2006. Also, Arthur Schlesinger, Sr. has stated that anti-Catholicism is "the deepest bias in the history of the American people", and Peter Viereck has claimed that "Catholic baiting is the anti-Semitism of the liberals." I offer no truth value on any of these statements regarding society at large; however, I suspect there are those who would self-righteously attack Catholicism and Catholics while supporting the ideals of liberalism and tolerance hypocritically.

[kwassa]

32. I think that there are a number of acceptable prejudices left.

Anti-any kind of religion is quite acceptable, as we are all well aware of. It is also quite possible to be liberal in one area and bigoted in another, as we see in forums sometimes.

In other words, it is acceptable to be bigoted for your subset of liberals against other groups that may include liberals as well as conservatives. As long as conservatives are in those groups, those groups seem to be fair game.

[Princess Turandot]

33. I grew up and still live in NYC..

I know folks from a wide range of faiths - how many people here know adherents of the Baha'i faith (!) - along with agnostics and atheists. There are also a large number of Catholics in NYC, courtesy of the great wave of immigration during the late 19th, early 20th Centuries.

As a result, I must have been insulated against knee-jerk reactions from others who held Catholicism in disdain. The Internet was a revelation (no pun intended!) for me in this regard, in particular here.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rug]

35. Where would we be without your protection.

[pnwmom]

36. Here's a reason to stay.

Someone has to counter the heavy Catholic presence at the freeper site. (Complete with Catholic readings of the day, every day, on their main page.)

Even if we seem to be just a drop in the bucket.

[shrike]

37. That's interesting, because every conservative Evangelical I've ever met

has wanted to convert me. The Pope is the anti-christ, I am going to hell because I'm not saved, etc.

Anti-catholicism has been a mainstay in conservative America for a long time.

Oh well, maybe Freeper Catholics are like Log Cabin Republicans.

[pnwmom]

38. You're right. It is a recent alliance and a very odd one. n/t