What defines "Catholic" for you? I've recently heard

[hedgehog]

several people refer to a Latin Mass or having the priest with his back to the congregation as "more Catholic" than the vernacular Mass or having the priest face the congregation.

[rug]

1. That's nonsense, naturally.

[hedgehog]

2. I probably spend too much time on the inter tubes,

but I'm worried that there is a push on to drag the Church back into some fantasy of Pre-Vatican II. IMO, all you have to do is check out the web site for the Pius X Society to see how screwed up things were getting. But this Year of the Priest has me scared, it sounds like the Year of elevating the male clergy above all others to me. Toss in the investigation of Catholic sisters here in America and I see a real storm coming.

So, what makes us Catholic?

[rug]

3. There are really only a handful of doctrines that must be accepted de fide.

And there are only a handful of practices that are obligatory (Mass on Sunday, Confession once a year, etc.).

The rest is political and social.

On paper, the role of the priest is not above all others but rather is that of a servant to the laity and the Church.

"The priesthood is not an institution that exists "alongside" the laity or "above" it. The priesthood of bishops and priests, as well as the ministry of deacons, is "for" the laity, and precisely for this reason it possesses a "ministerial" character, that is to say one "of service"’. Moreover, it highlights the ‘baptismal priesthood", the priesthood common to all the faithful. It highlights this priesthood and at the same ‘time helps it to be realized in the sacramental life."

http://www.clerus.org/clerus/dati/2000-10/10-999999/l90.html

Reserving ordination to males is pretty well settled now, although it's still a hair shy of infallible teaching.

As far as the Latin Mass is concerned, the more I see of it on EWTN and other places, the more I see how essential Vatican II was. The murmuring of prayers in Latin that no one can hear reminds me more of Snape performing an incantation during the Quidditch match than an ethereal experience.

The SSPX, not to mention the SSPV, are just plain insane reactionaries. To look at the history of the Catholic Church and to state that it ended with the 1962 Missal is insanity. They have staked out a dominant role on the fringe but it remains the fringe.

I'm curious to to see how the investigation ("apostolic visitation") of the nuns turns out. I agree with you. Its purpose seems motivated by a search for dissent.

There is a right wing wave sweeping over the Church. But it is a wave of conservatism, and all that that means, but it is not a wave of Catholicism. Once again the Church is being held up for political purposes.

[hedgehog]

4. I don't have the time to link to examples right now, but I am seeing more

and more references to the priest as head, as leader, as shepherd in the sense of being in authority over rather than as servant to the people. I'm sensitive to it because my parish was obliterated in the name of a "one priest, one roof" policy. We're still seeing the consequences of unchecked authority and assumption of clerical superiority being revealed, yet i see bishops and priests trying to reassert authority.

[hedgehog]

5. Here's a case in point:

http://ncronline.org/news/vatican-rejects-maryknoll-brother-elected-superior

Here we have a shortage of priests to offer Mass, but the Vatican is insisting only a priest can be in charge.

I guess this is what I'm seeing : people defining Catholic as having esoteric worship directed by priests.

[rug]

6. That's interesting. I wonder what they would say about Francis, who was never ordained a priest.

[hedgehog]

7. By this thinking, any priest has more authority than any

number of male and of course all female saints as a result of Holy Orders. Any priest is higher in authority than the Virgin Mary!

Of course, the real problem is the need to maintain authority in the first place. We need Eucharist, we need priests to preside at Eucharist. It amazes me that being able to preside at Eucharist isn't enough for all too many priests. Too many from the Pope on down have decided that certain tasks belong to priests alone, that priests must be celibate males like themselves, and their jealousy regarding this perceived role is tearing the Church apart.

[mdmc]

8. I've seen the Year of the Priest as a recruiting attempt

to stock up on much needed Preists. It seems we are always short here in Newburgh, and with the threat of "reallignment" hanging over us, it was nice to see the church try to recurit

[mdmc]

9. Catholic is defined for me as being born or converted into the religion

Most of my friends are Catholic, although none of them practice any longer. Some are now buddist Catholics. Some go to more liberal churches.

[hedgehog]

10. But what is the essence of catholicism as opposed to say, Islam

or Judaism?

Is it measured by obedience to the Pope? Is it dependent on attending Mass? Is it how you look at the world?

[mdmc]

11. I guess obedience to the Pope

Christians follow Christ.
Catholics follow Christ, and see the Vatican as the top of the church.
I noticed many churches that stand alone = they have no affiliation except to themselves.

[hedgehog]

12. OK, one vote that the essence of Catholicism is obedience to the Pope

comments? Agree or disagree? Why?

[Brigid]

13. "Catholic", in the best sense of the word, means "universal."

We do not all think alike. Some think women ought to be ordained; some do not. Some think priests should be allowed to marry; some do not. We do not all even worship exactly alike. Our political views vary. However, a concern for social justice and emulating God's preferential concern for the poor ought to be a defining characteristic. So should the belief in transubstantiation. Of course, there is the Mass: The Vatican II changes in that must have been very shocking to the average Catholic of the time, but they made the Mass more accessible and meaningful for them. One thing Catholicism does not mean: It does not mean extracting your brain and sending it to Rome, as some seem to think. I myself came to CAtholicism late in life, and for my own reasons: I love the Mass, I love the rich history of the Church, I love the Church's stance on many issues, and I love that the Church offers so many ways to get involved. That is what Catholicism means to me.