***COMMENT Thread For APRIL Photo Contest***

[sandnsea]

Post your comments here.

Submissions for Storms April contest is http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=280x72013">here

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

1. someone had to start, not sure I will keep it

but, there ya go

[Xipe Totec]

3. I would have titled that photo...

I am woman, hear me roar!

It is as perfect as a Picasso

[ManiacJoe]

6. If you don't want it, I will take it!

:-)

I need to check some old slides and see what I might have for lightning captures.

[dixiegrrrrl]

21. It did start the contest off with a bang.

Very attention getting.

[CC]

2. How to guarantee bright sunny

days for weeks, have a contest whose theme is storms. lol Might be rain next Friday. Had a gentle rain Thurs. night. :rofl: Not complaining, enjoying the bright sunny days and really enjoyed them when it was in the 80s. Can't wait to see what others come up with though.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

4. Ok I'm in!

Sometimes it pays to ALWAYS have your camera at the ready. I pulled to the side of the road and there it was..............

[ManiacJoe]

7. Good capture of that leading edge.

[ManiacJoe]

5. My "Here it Comes" seems not so impressive.

It is still fun none-the-less. :-)

[sandnsea]

8. Ooooh, I like it

I like them all so far. I like to enter because my pictures are usually so bad that I think it encourages others, lol. It is a lot of fun and gets me out taking pictures of things I probably wouldn't otherwise.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

9. We're supposed to have some rain here in the next couple of days...

But the sky will probably be just plain, flat, dull, boring...

I think I will sit this one out.

You guys are all so good, it's demoralizing!

[Mz Pip]

16. It just keeps raining here

Very unusual for this time of year. Usually we're done with rain and April is often one our our most pleasant months. I heard there will be snow in the mountains again. I know we need the water in the reservoirs but I am getting sick of the gloomy days.

Even when the sun comes out, it's cold. Brrrr.

[regnaD kciN]

10. Three of the first eight entries from Seattle area...

With our reputation for weather, is it so surprising? ;-)

[CaliforniaPeggy]

11. Changed my mind! It's a female prerogative, right?

I remembered some I'd taken last winter...

So there it is.

Cheers!

[sandnsea]

12. Yeah! I love it

There's something so hopeful about sun beams.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

13. Thanks!

I appreciate it!

I had not seen the sky like that before...

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

14. Great shot and

I like how you captured some birds in there........

[CaliforniaPeggy]

15. Thanks!

Um, I hate to admit it, but that was entirely unintentional!

I didn't even see them till I was doing a whole screen slide show...

Beginner's luck, I'd call it, lol!

[dixiegrrrrl]

22. We used to call those sun beams "Angel Fingers"....

I always like seeing them.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

24. Thanks!

I haven't seen very many.

[Tindalos]

17. I'm enjoying all the entries

I'm out this month because I've hurt my foot. At least, that's my poor excuse for not chasing storms.

Keep 'em coming!

---------------------

[HappyCynic]

18. No storms in the forecast anyways...

Sad to hear about your foot. Hope it heals soon.
I'm probably sitting this one sitting this one out too. I had a lightning photo but it pales in comparison to WannaJump's. I have a cloud photo that might fit the bill but it's nothing compared to any one of the cloud photos already submitted. And my shots get less suitable (subject matter and/or quality) from there.

With no storms in the forecast, there won't be any storms to chase.

[Tindalos]

19. I totally slept through the last storm.

I think you should enter anyway. It's too easy to talk ourselves out of these contests. There's nothing to lose by trying, right?

[CC]

83. Curious, what did you

do to your foot? Hope it isn't too bad and heals fast. I think my feet thing was more than enough to cover everyone from the group so no fair the foot gods are trying to take another victim.

[alfredo]

20. Clears skies-- Curses!

[elleng]

23. Pastorale

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM8RlCZP0KQ

[regnaD kciN]

30. Glad you caught the reference!

:thumbsup:

[elleng]

31. ?

:-)

[Mira]

32. Am I nuts? Or just lost.

How can you perfectly link to "The Pastorale" by Beethoven, and now make a question mark?

[elleng]

34. Neither, Mira;

just don't understand 'glad you caught the reference.' Been loving Mr. Beethoven's storm forever!

[Mira]

35. OH.

I caught it immediately as well; now you got me humming it.

[regnaD kciN]

37. I was lucky...

...I got to see Leonard Bernstein conduct it (with the Boston Symphony) from a front-row seat when I was a teenager.

[Mira]

38. It's a simple fact,

when you get seriously exposed to the classics in music at an early age, as you are entitled to in an evolved society,
if it appeals to you, it will permeate your soul and your being for the rest of that life time.

[elleng]

41. OH MY! HOW lucky!

When I was 'little,' saw his concerts for children, in NYC.

[regnaD kciN]

36. Because I doubt that many people know about Beethoven's 6th anymore...

...let alone that it's named the "Pastorale" (with or without the final 'e'), or that the last movement is subtitled "Shepherd's thanksgiving at the passing of the storm." As a matter of fact, I added the "(Clearing Storm)" subtitle to the contest entry, because I was thinking that far too many voters in the contest might be wondering "what does 'Pastorale' have to do with storms?"

[Mira]

39. The proper title is "Die Pastorale"

making it very clear that Beethoven thought of it as "the" bucolic wondrous incorporation of earthly delights and tribulations.
It's apt.
And your name for your photo is wonderful to me.

[elleng]

40. 'no contest '

as they're not my pictures! 'Coincidence' that our minds work as they do!

[hippywife]

25. Okay! Dueling husband and wife submissions. LOL

His is much better than mine. Different storm, too. Just for fun, here are the others in my series for the storm shot I posted. The hail coming in at 90 mi/hr broke out all the windows in the front of the house and one on the west side of the house. Injured one of the ducks I had at the time, too. He had shelter but not enough sense to use it.











Some really great submissions out there already! This was a great choice for the theme. :hi:

[elleng]

26. POOR DUCKY, HW!

[Xipe Totec]

27. I'm seeing some fantastic, intimidating submissions out there

:scared:

[CaliforniaPeggy]

28. Yeah, I saw them too, my dear Xipe Totec!

Didn't let them stop me, though!

:hug:

[HappyCynic]

29. I can't speak for Xipe Totec but...

I do believe yours is also an intimidating one...

For me, the intimidating ones started with WannaJump's (yeah, his is the first one) and didn't stop coming...

I have one I may enter, knowing it'll get ass-kicked, run over, and steam rolled. But I may enter it if the submissions don't fill up in a few days.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

42. Enter!

Remember when the voting starts thousands(okay, maybe hundreds!)of DU'ers will be looking at the pictures but some will no doubt vote for yours. Then you will have gotten the fear of entering off your back! Ther reason I say this is because I was right where you are a few months ago. Now I enter every one because I learn from each contest.
:toast:

[HappyCynic]

43. I think I have a shot (yet to be taken)...

I've entered most of the contests for the past 8 months or so. My first one was Green and since then, I think the Winter one was the only one I missed out on - we had a really warm winter here, as you probably saw from the Olympic coverage. There wasn't really I had a shot on hand that I really wanted to enter and there's a distinct lack of storms at the moment (though I can't really complain too much, I guess). I found a shot that might fit the bill so I just need to shoot it (which may not happen until Saturday). Then we'll see if I have a decent photo. (It'll probably still get ass-kicked. That wasn't really the main consideration - most of my previous entries have gotten steam rolled so I'm used to it.) If it doesn't pan out, I have a backup that I'll consider. We'll see in a couple days, I guess.

[Xipe Totec]

65. I did, thanks!

With an entry closer to the spirit of the contest.

It's not good enough to win, but I feel it's good enough to participate.

:hi:

[Mira]

33. You are smirking well, dear CaliforniaPeggy.

Or well smirking. Yours is one of them.

[elleng]

44. Another 'Storm!'

chocolatetreebooks.com/abyss/turner_shore

[Cassandra]

45. I'm bowing to Frozen Lattice's superior treatment...

and substituting Blinded by Love and Snow. It's not as beautiful as whatever will probably win but it's more amusing than the X.

[sandnsea]

46. I Love That!

So glad you decided to enter it. Tempest comes to mind.

[Cassandra]

47. The Tempest is the statue next to that one...

in front of the Delacourt theater. ;-) That day the Tempest was so covered in snow it was unrecognizable as anything.

[a la izquierda]

92. Thanks

;)

[babylonsister]

48. I posted one, but it's not from this month,

or even year. If that's taboo, pls. just let me know/don't include. :hi:

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

49. nah, that is no problem...nice shot

looks great

[babylonsister]

51. Thanks, WJMS. nt

[CaliforniaPeggy]

50. My dear babylonsister!

That is gorgeous!

Normally there's no restriction on when you took it...

Wow.

Just gorgeous. I am jealous!

Welcome aboard!

:hug:

[babylonsister]

52. Hi, Peggy. I used to post in this forum awhile back, but

got sidetracked. Am making an effort to get back into the swing of things. :hi::hug:

[hippywife]

53. You know, as difficult as it has been

to pile up entries for this category, I think it's going to be just as difficult for people to vote. Probably more so for any contest since I've been participating, anyway.

[sandnsea]

54. And I thought it would be easy for people

I thought everybody would have a bunch of storm pics. Oops. But there are some really spectacular ones in there, I love the snow on the branches one, wow. Then the aftermath of storms, heartwrenching. I'm excited!

[Mira]

55. My dear Sandnsea

your photo is so beautiful, "Rough Seas Ahead", that I hate being the bearer of bad news.
The host/hostess cannot enter in the contest he/she is in charge of.

Please don't hold it against me, but somebody had to tell you.

Your photograph is in my personal top three, I love it fiercely.

(The exception to that rule is that in the 4 seasonal contests the hosts can enter, because there are a host and a co-host, and if one of them makes it into the finals then the other host takes over. I learned that one the hard way in the Winter seasonal contest)

[sandnsea]

56. That is not a problem

I didn't know that. And it is no big deal because I honestly don't think it's that great of a photo anyway. Thanks for letting me know!!

[Mira]

57. I think it is. Genuinely. And did not want to tell you.

I hate losing it in the contest.

[CC]

84. I thought it would be easy

then we suddenly got sunny skies. Maybe we need a storm contest whenever an area one of us lives in has had enough of them? You can be the permanent storm host since it looks like you have the mojo going with the theme. :evilgrin:

[Xipe Totec]

58. I Love Puddles

Nice work, Mira!

[Mira]

63. Thank you XipeTotec, your support makes me feel good.

I couldn't warm to putting out the photo of the fried appliances after the hurricane.
I don't think people vote for what makes them so deeply sad.

This one is in the alley way behind my neighborhood grocery store.

[Xipe Totec]

64. It is beautiful

I loved it, and keep going back to see it again and again.

:hi:

[Cassandra]

80. Prettiest puddle I've ever seen!

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

59. I changed my photo from the lightning

to the bottom of a Coast Guard Helo.... if you hit refresh it should change. If not, let me know, and I will try something different.

[Xipe Totec]

61. Nice picture, very rare

to be there to take the shot.

Still, I will miss the lightning shot that looked like a line drawing of a woman in a bikini.

[Xipe Totec]

60. Nicely done, u4ic!

A beautiful addition, and a strong contender!

[Mira]

62. Schema thing

if memory serves you entered your photo of peaches at the very end, and then it went on to victory.

You might have presented us with another real contender just now, my jaw is somewhere on the floor, probably so are a few others'.

...just sayin'...
You know how to bring us real gifts.

[Xipe Totec]

66. +1 (nt)

[sandnsea]

67. Isn't that outstanding!

And for the record, JeffR says we'll revisit frames after this contest.

But man I love that photo.

[JeffR]

68. I think we'd better get some certainty about frames & amend the rules if need be.

I voted for officially allowing them last time around, which was a minority opinion. The thing is, though, frames seem to vary from merely redundant to aesthetically ill-advised from what I see on the intertubes. I don't think they add anything to a great image.

[Schema Thing]

71. Thanks for the nice comments everyone. About the frame...

I put the frame around the image only because I have the picture scanned as either 1.) a 700 pixel .jpg, which I can edit, or 2.) a 3000-something pixel .pcd file, which I can't seem to edit or size down (it's an old Kodak picture disk format). So I made the border for the image because I've noticed that pictures tend to get a little "lost" in the contest if they don't match up with all the other 800 pixel images. Not that I imagine a pic of a beautiful woman soaked to the skin would be overlooked, but you know what I mean ;)

[JeffR]

72. It doesn't hurt the image, thankfully.

And your reason for using it is exactly why it should be permitted, IMVHO.

[sandnsea]

74. Can a photo that did not win, be entered again. tks n/t

[alfredo]

75. Yeah, go for it.

[JeffR]

76. Traditionally, photos from the monthly contests aren't supposed to be re-used.

I remember a discussion about this a couple of years ago in relation to seasonal and monthly contests, but I just went searching for the thread and can't find it.

[sandnsea]

77. Okay, I thought it was just the winners

Or the top 3 places that couldn't be re-entered. Maybe we can have a discussion on all of this after the contest.

[apaflo]

78. Rules that don't exist! (Are not rules.)

What's with all these rules coming out of the woodwork, supposedly because they have been discussed at some time in the past by somebody?

Rules are posted with each contest announcement. There is no indication that other rules exist, and no reference to a more complete set. Those, therefore, are the only rules that apply to the contest they introduce.

Yet in this case we've seen claims that borders are not allowed, past entries in other contests or any of the top three vote getters, are not allowed, and that the host is not allowed to enter. Not one of those is a stated rule in this particular contest.

And yet last I looked we still have one entry that is larger than the explicitly stated maximum of 800 pixels on the longest dimension. Rules that don't exist are being bandied, and rules that do exist are not being enforced!

And now is the time to discuss rule changes, not before the next contest is being formulated. Changes obviously cannot affect a currently running contest. They also should be well discussed and settled on before the next contest is in any way initialized.

[Mira]

81. Whoaaaaa...

go around the block a few times and just listen in.

I'm new, too. Though I have participated in every contest since the fall of 2008, I know enough to step back so the Forum Chiefs set the tone.

Having run a contest as a winner, and helped with others, I know for a fact that under no circumstances is the host allowed to enter. Ever.
Except in the seasonal, two hosts contests.

Just because it is not stated at the onset does not make it a variable, nor does it make it non-existent.

A new host, like sandnsea, does not know some of the hard and fast rules.
And that is what happened, and in the hopefully respectful way we interact with each other I pointed it out ASAP.

In the time I have participated, to my memory which is pretty good when it comes to the submissions, no photo has been presented with a frame.
So it's a new issue, maybe it was once settled before my time, and it's rearing its head now.
My experience can assure you we will happily have a discussion on this in due time, I see it not causing a problem for anyone in this contest.

When it comes to re-sizing photos, when the time comes for the preliminary threads this issue solves itself, or if not the host handles it.

I believe, for now, all is well and under fine control.

[apaflo]

86. Published rules are a common courtesy

"Just because it is not stated at the onset does not make it a variable, nor does it make it non-existent."

Rules that are not known to contestants, and cannot be known because they are not available and not published as part of the rules, are not rules that can be followed. They are non-existent.

"My experience can assure you we will happily have a discussion on this in due time, I see it not causing a problem for anyone in this contest."

But your experience is not everyone's shared experience, and it cannot assure me or anyone except you of anything. For example...

I was (very politely) asked to remove the borders on the image that I've entered, with somewhat of a nebulous claim that there was probably a rule against it. My response was that I read the posted rules before entering, there was no such rule and no references to be found suggesting there were rules other than those posted. I am following the rules. I passed it off as one person being slightly mistaken.

Then I read here where that person was not mistaken (and probably got the idea of such a rule from someone else anyway), and that there are, in the minds of some, several unknown non-existent nebulous unpublished "rules", and of course just as can be expected there is all manner of confusion over exactly what is and what is not allowed even amongst those who claim to know how is all supposed to work (or are expected to by those who make no such claim).

Rules that are not made available before an event starts simply do not exist. That isn't specific to this contest or this forum, that's a simple matter of courtesy to other people!

[CC]

87. I can see where you are coming from

and being very new not only to the group but to DU too can understand why you would think the rules came out of the blue.I hope my other message helps clear some of that up for you and you remind us that it might be time for one of us to gather up all the rules, have the group go over them nd find a permanent place to post them for future contest. Enough of us have smuggy muggy to find a place to post them.

On frames specifically in your case. You have this knock out drop dead gorgeous photo that could probably use a very simple frame to contain it, but maybe not. But IMHO and only mine that I know of the frame you have on it detracts from it by competing with it in color and intensity. The bright blue and bright orange pull my eye away from the photo and out to the frame. Maybe if you toned down the saturation it would compliment it more than distract. Again only my humble opinion and others mileage may very. I do love the actual photo and hope to see more of you art.

[apaflo]

89. I can see where you are coming from

I can see where you are coming from and being very new not only to the group but to DU too can understand why you would think the rules came out of the blue.

Please don't jump to to many unwarranted conclusions. :-)

I've been a photographer for almost 50 years. I've been very active on the Internet for over 25 years (which is to say my experience dates to long before most people here ever heard of the Internet), posting/reading etc to Usenet and then these web forums as they have become popular in recent times. My field of expertize is communications, and hence I'm a bit sensitive about the lack of it here, not to mention very well aware of the mechanics of how this happens and precisely how to correct it.

And indeed, by all reasonable definitions it is true that "the rules came out of the blue"!

(Be warned that I'm capable of telling "blue smoke" stories to explain anything that fails, which usually means the blue smoke escaped, or any plan that is assured to fail, which clearly involves someone blowing blue smoke at certain orifices...)

I hope my other message helps clear some of that up for you and you remind us that it might be time for one of us to gather up all the rules, have the group go over them nd find a permanent place to post them for future contest. Enough of us have smuggy muggy to find a place to post them.

Exactly. Because while I wasn't initially positive as to just exactly how confused this system is, your other message made it exceedingly clear that it was way out of bounds. And that is exactly there reason I posted something here rather than just sort of laughing about the confusion that cause a suggestion that I was not following the rules, and then absolute silence in regard to my response.

On frames specifically in your case. You have this knock out drop dead gorgeous photo that could probably use a very simple frame to contain it, but maybe not. But IMHO and only mine that I know of the frame you have on it detracts from it by competing with it in color and intensity. The bright blue and bright orange pull my eye away from the photo and out to the frame. Maybe if you toned down the saturation it would compliment it more than distract. Again only my humble opinion and others mileage may very. I do love the actual photo and hope to see more of you art.

Wonderful (but not an appropriate part of this discussion either). That is what you would do for your intended purposes. I obviously either disagree or have a different intended purpose. The framing is not an accident, and it serves exactly the purpose I intended. It is clearly a different image with that frame than without it, and my intention is that it be viewed with the frame. There is of course no need for you, or anyone except me, to like that better than some other image. You do your art, I'll do mine, and neither has anything at all to do with having the courtesy to communicate as clearly as possible the rules to a long time ongoing photography contest that has become so confused that even the organizers can't figure out what is acceptable and what is not.

[CC]

90. Welcome to the group,

you will get out of it what you bring into it. Enjoy.

[apaflo]

91. On frames specifically in my case.

On frames specifically in your case. You have this knock out drop dead gorgeous photo that could probably use a very simple frame to contain it, but maybe not. But IMHO and only mine that I know of the frame you have on it detracts from it by competing with it in color and intensity. The bright blue and bright orange pull my eye away from the photo and out to the frame. Maybe if you toned down the saturation it would compliment it more than distract. Again only my humble opinion and others mileage may very. I do love the actual photo and hope to see more of you art.

While the above comments were topically inappropriate and rude in the context of the article they were posted in, this is the appropriate thread for exactly that topic.

That interpretation of the effect of the border is almost dead on! However it didn't get the reasons correct, or perhaps help understand why it would be done that way. Hence a little discussion might be educational.

With a good editor the colors in an image can be inverted, and if done with that image the relationship between the border and the image becomes obvious. The blue border becomes yellow, and all the yellow evening sunlight on the snow becomes blue! Here is the original next to an inverted version.



The blue color was chosen specifically to be the opposite of the very dominating color of the image. The brightness, saturation, and width of the blue border, as well as those of the golden yellow and gray components, were chosen specifically for effect. The effect is almost exactly as described: it distracts (not "detracts") by pulling a viewer's attention away from any specific part of the image.

That is an extremely unusual intent for a photograph, but then that isn't exactly a typical picture. It's the entire set of contours and shades that are of interest, not any specific object or objects individually within the image. The border helps to prevent a viewer from fixing their gaze on any part of the image for any length of time. It isn't intended to be viewed as several parts, but as a whole that is one object. Note also that yellow itself is a difficult color to look at, and bordered by it's complementary color (blue) it is even more harsh. (Put someone in a yellow room, and use a stopwatch count the minutes before they escape; then try that with an "institutional green" or blue or gray room and on the average people will tolerate it for hours or even days.)

Which of course is to say that without that border the desired effect is greatly reduced, and it becomes a very different photograph (and IMHO one with far less artistic impact).

Other information that might be of interest begin with the image being shot with a Nikon D2x set to ISO 800 specifically to generate a grainy effect somewhat like Tri-X souped in Rodinal. That grain, like the border, was no accident! The one accidental part of that image was that I used a 400mm f/2.8 lens with a Nikkor 2x TCIII, which is effectively the same as a 1200mm lens on a full frame camera body. (That happened because I was out looking for caribou pictures, not snow drifts, but the road I wanted to use was drifted in, so...)

That image is certainly "different". I posted it here to see how people who have perhaps no idea what an Arctic snowdrift actually looks like would react to it. That is in comparison to how local people vs. others in Alaska have reacted. I don't post pictures to win contests or to hear how someone else might want to shoot the same scene; I'm very interested in how and why people react to different images though (and certainly someone telling me how they would have done it, or what they do/don't like about it provides that kind of information, hence I do not mean to complain about negative comments as such).

[CC]

94. It wasn't intended to be rude

nor even thought of. Sorry you took it that way. So much is lost when just typing with no visual cues to go with the words. I do appreciate you giving your reasons though and your detail in doing so will help all of us understand what your objective was. It may even challenge some to try it for themselves. That is why most of us are hanging out here. :)


On word usage and meaning, for me I meant detract(To draw or take away; divert.)not distract. As I said that was what it did for me personally, I can't and wouldn't speak for others. It takes my eye away from the photo. Before anything was said here and without even looking to see whose photo it was I removed the frame to look at the photo. Though I understand your intent now it still detracts for me. It just might be something that has a different effect on each viewer.


As I said welcome to the photo-group. You really do get out of it what you bring into it and that is part of the magic of this small group. I am slowly enjoying your photos on your website and hope others go view them. Your art will be a welcome addition. (Slowly as in taking my time with set and each photo.)

[apaflo]

97. The wrong word... :-)

On word usage and meaning, for me I meant detract(To draw or take away; divert.)not distract.

Right idea, but that's the wrong word!

Detract \De*tract"\, v. i.
To take away a part or something, especially from one's
credit; to lessen reputation; to derogate; to defame; --
often with from.

Not a characterization that is nice.

distract
v 1: draw someone's attention away from something; ...

A very likely why to characterize something that is useful.

As I said that was what it did for me personally, I can't and wouldn't speak for others. It takes my eye away from the photo. Before anything was said here and without even looking to see whose photo it was I removed the frame to look at the photo. Though I understand your intent now it still detracts for me. It just might be something that has a different effect on each viewer.

It distracts you, which is why it is there. The distraction is not accidental. Indeed it was not just intentional, it was literally calibrated! Note that the orangish border is precisely the same shade as most of the image, but the blue border is darker and more saturated (it's complimentary color is a fairly pure yellow instead of orange) than the blue in the image that has been inverted to complimentary colors. A lighter blue, matching more exactly the complimentary colors, was just too much and required that the border be too thin. A slightly less effective color tone allowed a wider border to achieve the same effective contraposition.

As I said welcome to the photo-group. You really do get out of it what you bring into it and that is part of the magic of this small group.

That is of course very true. It isn't just the small group either, though that certainly helps. A great part of it is that this small group is a subgroup of a larger, and very clearly more liberal than average group.

Here's something you (and everyone here) might get a real kick out of:

http://www.politicalcompass.org/

Take their little test and see how you compare politically with historic leaders, presidential candidates and others. They've been refining it a little for several years, but every time I've taken the test, starting maybe 6 or 7 years ago, my score has always been just about exactly the same... close to Ralph Nader and Mahatma Gandhi.

Whatever, the communications models that exist within such groups on the Internet, which have evolved from mailing lists to Usenet and now is primarily associated with forums like this one and to a lesser degree to blogs, is an exceedingly interesting topic that I've enjoyed studying for 20+ years now.

I am slowly enjoying your photos on your website and hope others go view them. Your art will be a welcome addition. (Slowly as in taking my time with set and each photo.)

Well, I make no claim to being a great artist. Worse yet, I make no effort at posting my best work on my webpage. I take a lot of people pictures and do not feel it is always appropriate to publish them. What goes on the web page is usually there because it illustrates a point, and sometimes it isn't even good photography. But even then it can be enjoyed, mostly because so few people ever have a chance to see a place like Barrow, and my webpage definitely gives a glimpse of what we are!

[Mira]

88. Peace! Apaflo.

Being not that experienced in the history of the Photo Forum, I should not have been the one to respond to you, though a response was needed.

We are having fun with our contests, primarily, and I for one would like to keep it that way.

You and I and everyone agrees that even fun things need basic guidelines.
As CC said in her post (I think it's # 85) not many are set in stone, and all of them are subject to periodic discussion or review with input from new people such as yourself.

Read, or re-read CC's post. She addresses your concerns with the authority of longevity; she has, I believe, been here since the inception of the contests.
She wrote it so well, we can all relax.

Your photos are a very welcome addition, from what I have seen, and I hope this will not sour you on staying with us.
We are a laid back group and we all like to live happy and learn from each other.

:)
M

[Cassandra]

79. It's gorgeous...

frame or no frame.

[CC]

85. I don't think it is a big deal

and your reasons are right on. I never thought of expanding the size with a frame, good thinking on your part. If we do rethink the frame rules that is something to remember in the list of whys.
Love the photo and give yourself more credit than the sex appeal of it. There is so much more right about it.

[regnaD kciN]

95. Well, since I was the host the first time the "frames" issue came up...

...I need to chime in in (partial) disagreement to what you have written.

IMHO, frames do not "vary from merely redundant to aesthetically ill-advised." In fact, a well-chosen frame, as in the one under discussion, can enhance the look of the image, give it more of a "fine-art" feel, etc., etc.

But that's precisely the problem! This is supposed to be a photography contest, not a "photography plus how skilled you are at frame design" contest. The fact is, a photo with a well-designed frame will have an advantage -- but not everyone has the talent for designing frames (hey, even top photographers are known to hand off that job to professional framers in the real-world), and a photo with a poorly-designed frame will suffer in a similar manner.

I, for one, don't want to see a contests where a really fine photo loses out to one that is merely mediocre, all because the latter has a complementary frame around it while the former goes "bare" -- or happens to be submitted by someone who lacks skill at frame design, and so has a frame that detracts from the image. It should be the photo that's important, not the frame. (And it's really no different from the size limitation -- making sure that the entries are as standardized in non-content variables as possible, leaving the content to make the difference.)

[JeffR]

98. I don't disagree that they theoretically can enhance a photo.

But I'd stress the word "can" as the crux of the notion. As I noted above, the majority of frames I see utilized around the web mostly seem to fall into the "redundant" or "ill-advised" category. That's not to say frames can't work, just that they seldom do.

I think your point about the emphasis being on the photos, not the presentation of them, is what probably swayed people to reject the idea of allowing frames last time around. And it's a solid argument. I'm still inclined to think they should be permitted, but my guess is most people won't agree.

It's good, at least, that this issue has come to light again. The rules need dusting off.

[apaflo]

99. What is "photography"?

But that's precisely the problem! This is supposed to be a photography contest, not a "photography plus how skilled you are at frame design" contest. The fact is, a photo with a well-designed frame will have an advantage -- but not everyone has the talent for designing frames (hey, even top photographers are known to hand off that job to professional framers in the real-world), and a photo with a poorly-designed frame will suffer in a similar manner.

Do not allow cameras that cost more than say, $1200? Not every photographer can afford a Hasselblad, and this is a photography contest not a camera contest! And don't allow fixed focal length lenses because some people can only afford those inferior zooms? Or should the price tag limit include body and lens?

And absolutely no post or pre processing either? That's not something everyone has the talent to do, eh? No artificial lights, no color filters, and heaven forbid anyone have talent with an image editor like PhotoShop!

I think the rules should allow photographs . If it is basically an image that started with exposure in a camera, no matter how manipulated before or after that exposure, it is defined as a "photograph".

The photographer's talent in maniplating photographs is what a photography contest is about, so how is it reasonable to rule out photographers with different or above average talent?

Literally, the opposite is exactly what a contest probably should be aspiring to: highlighting unusual talent!

Otherwise it isn't a photography contest, it's a display of snapshots. (And I'm not against snapshots displays either, and indeed I like to warn people that if they show me their collection of vacation pictures they will get bored before I do!)

[regnaD kciN]

100. Talk about tortured reasoning ...

You know as well as anyone that there's a hell of a lot of difference between compositional, exposure, and processing choices, which are intrinsic to the art and science of photography, and being able to slap a nice-looking frame on the results. Talent in one is not the same at talent in another...a fact that I hope you're intelligent enough to realize, and are just playing games with your "it's discriminating against talent" horse-manure. But have it your way. While you're at it, why not let people specify a musical selection to be listened to while viewing their selection? After all, not allowing someone to pick background music for their shot only means that you're discriminating against their talent at selecting tracks off a CD designing the proper experience for viewing their picture, right? Just be informed that, in any contests I host, there will be NO DAMN FRAMES. Period.

[Celebration]

101. frames vs. no frames

If we have another poll on this, and put it in the formal rules that are passed down, I know how I will vote. Prior to reading this thread, I wouldn't have had a strong opinion. Now I do. Secret ballot, of course. ;)

[apaflo]

102. How to manufacture your own talent?

regnaD kciN wrote:
You know as well as anyone that there's a hell of a lot of difference between compositional, exposure, and processing choices, which are intrinsic to the art and science of photography, and being able to slap a nice-looking frame on the results. Talent in one is not the same at talent in another...a fact that I hope you're intelligent enough to realize ...

Most people realize all of those, including framing, involve talent and that all make up a "photograph" when borders are intrinsic to the image.

Not everyone can see that. There are virtually continuous discussions around the Internet over whether manipulation of an image with PhotoShop is acceptable as art; and some people use exactly your argument against borders to rail against post processing RAW files external to the camera. Indeed, there are people who use precisely the same "reasoning", if it can be called that, to claim photography is not an art at all!

I'm sorry, that reasoning is not logical in any of those discussions.

regnaD kciN wrote:
Just be informed that, in any contests I host, there will be NO DAMN FRAMES. Period.

Emotion is the essence of voting on images; but probably shouldn't be the basis for rule selection.

Celebration wrote:
If we have another poll on this, and put it in the formal rules that are passed down, I know how I will vote. Prior to reading this thread, I wouldn't have had a strong opinion. Now I do. Secret ballot, of course. ;)

Same as above. You both seem eager enough to be sure that somebody doesn't get a one up with a talent you don't feel you have.

On any rule change vote, I'll personally vote to encourage the talent of others, and never make any attempt at excluding those with abilities beyond mine.

[Celebration]

103. Please

Don't speak for me. You have no idea how I would vote or why.

BTW, the organizer of the contest can put any restrictions on the entries that he/she wants. They are given extreme latitude, no matter how people vote. We never second guess the organizer, nor make any judgments on their motives. Period. If you win the contest, and organize it, as far as I am concerned you can require frames, even if we vote against it.

I've never organized a contest, but I would honor what the majority in this group want.

[JeffR]

69. It's just outstanding.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

70. Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Times 29 or however many entries there are besides mine. What I get out of these 'contests' are new ideas on composition, lighting, framing and subject matter.
Here's to all of you, :toast: and while I'm old I'm not dead, so here's also to Schemathing :)

[MattSh]

73. Hi all,

Thanks for voting and the comments on my "Storms" Contest thread.

For those who asked, the first photo is St. Michael's Golden Domed Monastery, Kiev

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Michael%27s_Golden-Domed_Monastery

The second is on the South Nahanni River, NWT, Canada

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nahanni

The third is Chincoteague National Wildlife Refuge, VA USA

Also, I need some clarification for next time about rules.

If a photo was submitted in a prior contest and did not win, can it be submitted again in a future contest? I thought the rules on this was no. SandNSea, this months host, said he thinks it can. It may be too late to make a difference this time, but I would like to know for future contests.

[CC]

82. An early rule that has been

revisited was entering a photo in more than one contest. Each time it was decided (after discussion and votes) that you could only enter it once. Part of that is so there is a variety. Might be time again to revisit the issue and see how the newer people feel.

The host has never been allowed to enter the contest they are running except for the seasonal. The seasonal only has two victims/volunteers that offered to do it so we did not go through people wanting a fall, spring, winter, summer contest every month. Somewhere in the monthly writing or copy & paste of the rules that part has been left off and we did not notice. Happens over time with anything that is repeated. We used to have a site with the winning photos and rules but the person that paid for it is no longer on DU. (Though he is missed)


Frames has been visited a couple times when frames appeared, might be time again. I don't have a problem with them though if not well done or over done they can detract from a photo. Part of why they got voted down was that there are people that have no idea of how to do frames and it kept a some what level playing field.


Sizes get revisited often and end up staying smaller because there are still people with slow connections out there. It is done more for the general public than for any of us.


The prize for winning isn't so huge and valuable that any one rule is a major deal. You get some really good positive feed back and should you need it your ego fed then you get to host the next contest therefore keeping you grounded. There is a reason I say second place is the real winner.


This contest here is a friendly way for some of us to push ourselves out of our comfort zone (mainly with the themes),to share our group and photos with the rest of DU and learn new things. Anything else you get or don't get from it is on your shoulders and for you to deal with.

This group is here to support each other, learn and grow. It is done with kindness and caring. Everyone is welcome as long as they are kind and caring in their critiques. If you need something more negative or rules set in stone you might find other photo sites more to your liking.

The contest host has a hard enough job, specially the first couple times, appreciate them for taking it on, help them if they need it and thank them for doing it. The pay and hours suck on top of the stress. If you can't be nice about it be quiet.

Welcome to all the newbies. I hope you can stay for a long while, share lots of photos and enjoy the camaraderie.


Edited to add:
The host is allowed to set the theme without asking though may ask if he/she feels like it. The host is also allowed to change/set the rules for their contest should they want to do/chance it except for the one on the host entering. Choosing the theme used to be the real prize for winning. It could get some unique themes that really pushed the group out of their comfort zones. Some rules just made sense as time went on and made things a bit easier and consistent.

[Celebration]

93. Thanks for all that!!

Personally, I can't imagine anyone WANTING to submit the same photo twice. That is just plain weird. I tend to remember things like that, and even a slightly different photo of the same scene causes a little :wtf: with me, though that is allowed. Of course I'll make exceptions for those of us who truly can't remember what pictures they have submitted to past contests. :rofl: That would be a "Celebration" type thing to do.

The only thing I personally would change about the rules is the picture size. I've always been for a somewhat increased picture size. Lots of people have big screens and the small picture size looks a bit creepy. But I admit that I have addressed all this in the past and gotten nowhere. Well, actually I did at least successfully get the rules on that enforced uniformly.

The important thing is, yes, to be NICE, no matter what happens in a contest or discussion. And overall we have a pretty good record on that.

Thanks CC for your important history lesson.

[CC]

96. Mind you I was going from memory

and there are those that have been around longer and might know/remember more. Though I do remember when only 10 photos were allowed for the contest and if you weren't right there you could forget it.

It is kind of bad that none of us noticed or said what was lost in the rules part of the threads. How many people weren't really reading them anymore besides me? *sheepish look* I don't want to add any more stress toe Sandandsea in this contest so will wait until after the prelims to start one on the rules and changes we might want or need. Might bring some others out of the wood work. Hosting is stressful enough without extra stuff thrown in.