I have a burning question tonight!

[KitchenWitch]

My understanding of *TRUE* Christianity and what it means to be a true Christian consists of the following. Said person does their best to be like the Christ in the gospels. Helping people, loving people, even if they do not understand them, and basically being the shining light of Christ in our world.

How can the fundies be so unloving and unaccepting to gays, even when Christ himself commanded his followers to love their neighbor as theirselves?

Granted, I am not gay, but I still hurt that pastors here are meeting at one of the mega churches in the area, to try and get an anti gay marriage measure on our ballot.

:nuke:

[realisticphish]

1. Because

they, like every christian (myself included) pick out the verses and books they want to obey. We just pick the good ones :)

But really, it's because they cannot question their faith. ANYTHING that might seem wrong to their fundamentalist views is attacked viciously, because they are afraid of thinking that they might be wrong

[GreenPartyVoter]

2. Exactly, plus they have fallen into the same trap as the Pharisees of

Jesus' day, namely having a LONG list of what makes you ok or not ok.

If they could just remember this, they'd be much more tolerant and loving:

“Jesus said, ‘Love the Lord your God with all your passion and prayer and intelligence.’ This is the most important, the first on any list. But there is a second to set alongside it: ‘Love others as well as you love yourself.' These two commands are pegs; everything in God's Law and the Prophets hangs from them.” (Matthew 22:37-39)

[hvn_nbr_2]

3. Interesting translation. What version is it from?

Just offhand, it sounds like either there's some interpretation added or else the King James Version (still what I'm most familiar with) skipped over some stuff.

[GreenPartyVoter]

4. Probably "the Message". It's more modern in it's expression. :^)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

5. My theory is that they're using the anti-gay attitudes as a hook to

catch people who are suffering from future shock. I don't know how old you are, but in the 1950s and early 1960s, being gay was such a taboo subject that people didn't even talk about. I vividly recall some of my grandmother's friends sitting around trying to figure out what gays and lesbians "did." It was all very furtive and whispered.

People didn't start coming out at all until the late 1960s, and not in large numbers until the 1980s.

All of a sudden, people were expected to accept something that hadn't even been mentionable in polite society. Many of us were able to make the change. (I met my first out gay people--members of the college chaplaincy I attended-- in the early 1970s, and I had already decided that I liked them before I learned that they were gay.) Others were just unable to make the attitude change. What was "wrong" when they were kids was going to be "wrong" forever. Still others, deeply closeted, feared their own yearnings for their gender and didn't want to be exposed to reminders.

The fundies have always played up the idea that the present age is hopelessly corrupt and infiltrated by the devil, and with so many people uneasy about gay rights, they decided that this was a perfect hook to reel people in. "We're the churches that stand up against the homosexual menace."

Of course, it's all a lot of nonsense. As a gay member of my church pointed out, one of the earliest converts to Christianity was part of a sexual minority, an Ethiopian eunuch, someone who would have been taboo in the Jewish community. Yet the apostle Philip treats him as just another inquirer, and when he asks, "What is to prevent my being baptized?" Philip responds by baptizing him without comment.

This is an incident from the Book of Acts, and one that the fundies don't like to emphasize. Imagine, one of the earliest converts was not only a eunuch, but black.

[RevCheesehead]

6. Nice catch, Lydia.

You've given me something new to gnaw on, and I thank you. :)

What can I add, but "all of the above"? Fear is a big part of it, but I think that fundy churches are essentially dysfunctional. They get into the "God as Rescuer, Me = Victim, Someone else = Persecutor." I remember after the Berlin Wall came down, I asked "who are they going to hate now?" Sure enough, there was someone else to blame. Sheesh - grow up already. They're getting anemic from all that spiritual milk. Try Gerber's.

[bliss_eternal]

7. Thank you for starting this thread--

I'm presently struggling with similiar issues. I enjoyed reading the areas pointed out here...

[KitchenWitch]

8. Sure

I have really been struggling with this one.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

9. What has always intrigued me about fundies, is their ability to

point to other's supposed Bible denounced sins, but not their own!

I live in a condo development which leds to more contact (sometimes not desired with others) than the normal person.

I will give 2 easy ex's. My neighbors (black and Baptist, no judgment, just background). The granddaughter is raised by the grandma because of her daughter's bad choices (drugs, alcohol and living with a man that beat her, not her ex-husband).

Here goes the grand mom, doesn't drink, smoke Sig's, etc. all the fundie stuff, but her 12 yr. younger boyfriend (Black Jewish supposedly) does, and he stays there most of the time (out of wedlock). She doesn't want to have anymore children (but he does) so she gives him permission to have sex with another woman with the sole purpose of producing a child, and they stay together. I get the Sarah-Abraham similarity but what is up with that.

The grand daughter told me about her celibacy pledge, I thought it was great. Then she tells me she is being pressured by her BF, I told her to reflect on her life and did she want to make the same bad choices her mommy did? She really wanted to make a change in the family chain (and she really did struggle against the pressure.).

Ok, so she caves, has sex, I knew before Gmom of course, (I knew the kid since she was 3 and now 16), but she convinced herself that a 1 time encounter would produce pregnancy, so, in fear she confessed to her Gmom. The first thing out of Gmom's mouth was you are going to have an abortion, if you are pregnant (which just canceled everything she was taught in church).

She was not pregnant, and told me that she was going to keep on pretending she was celibate, and talk to others about celibacy. I told her that would be so hypocritical (she had subsequent sexual encounters with the same partner). She asked what I thought she should do, I said, "You don't have to profess what happened, just don't say anything, that is better than lying!".

These are just 2 instances of the hypocrisy, I just don't (and never will understand the lying involved, it's not in me.) that goes on in the RR.

[bliss_eternal]

10. self delete

Sorry--double posting.

:hi:

[bliss_eternal]

11. OM--it's like a soap opera!

I was sitting here cracking up reading about their antics--thanks for the entertaining story!

I'm with you--I don't get the hypocrisy either.

I know of a woman that will get all upset if people curse around her. She'll proclaim,"...I try to be a good christian, and not use such language..." Ok, whatever. Yet, while a christian she was dating a man in the church that was married. Yes, I think that qualifies as adultery, what about you?

Same woman won't say a word to her sister who is incredibly abusive of her child. Yet will 'counsel' the child to honor her mother because it is biblical...

Sorry--people like this are beyond my personal comprehension...

[I_Make_Mistakes]

13. I could go on and on. It is incredible, the do as I say not as I do

Repuke thing!

[supernova]

12. Sady, I think it depends on what one uses religion/philosophy for

There are two ways (that I know about) to approach following a path in your life:

1) You can use it to expand your life, your capicity for love, generosity, helpfulness to your community, learning about God, the universe and your part in it.

2) You can use it to reenforce all the bias and attitudes like racism, sexism, conformity and all that is "different," or new.

YOu can tell which category I place fundamentalists.

[bliss_eternal]

14. Anyone care to take on this one on?

Slightly off topic, but still related...

Why are they so threatened by other religions/spiritual paths?

A friend of mine (who may not be much longer), gets so twisted and bent about 'new age' or such paths. She's even said they are 'devil worshipers'! :wow:

That seems like a huge leap to me--but then again, I'm not drinkin' the Kool Aid. Metaphysics and other such belief systems (NO NOT Scientology), still speak of god, and they also speak of christ--but they are more open to considering the eastern philosophies and faiths, as well as honoring other religions.

How the heck does that equate to devil worship?

[KitchenWitch]

15. My guess is it all boils down to fear of what they do not understand.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

16. Jesus said and I am paraphrasing That those who enter the

kingdom will be like children, (always learning, with an open heart and mind).

Didn't Churchill(or one (ed) of those so called British hero's) say something stupid like, if you are not conservative in your older years, than you are like a child.)?

[bliss_eternal]

17. This is an interesting quote--

the one by Jesus and the one by Churchill.

I'm wondering, if Jesus did say this--then why is it that they are so adherent to every little thing in the bible? As opposed to remaining open minded and keeping an open heart where situations, people, etc. are concerned?

Why are WE damned to hell for trying to maintain an open mind where others are concerned, and choosing not to be judgemental?

[I_Make_Mistakes]

18. Because they are so sure they are special and saved, that they

ignore the teachings that don't jive with their cherished savedness.

You have to understand that their Pastor's talk about a lot this and re enforce it!

I can't tell you the rudest drivers, parkers and customers tend to have the Jesus Fish or Jesus decals on their car. I actually look for them when someone is being a jerk and I just laugh at their hypocrisy, sorry, it makes me feel better.

I cannot truly explain their behavior, because, I, as a Christian could never behave like that!

[bliss_eternal]

21. Yes--in a weird way

that makes sense! I know their pastors reinforce this stuff constantly. I went to church, once upon a time, and recall--it was like brainwashing--the constant reiteration of certain ideas, points, etc. Which is why I had major issues with pastors deciding it was their job to endorse *.

Dh and I left a church for that, and haven't looked back. I have to question anyone's judgement that endorses that jerk.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

19. I had to re post so that you would know the Bible side. This is the

NRSV study Bible quote, a little easier to understand. I have 3 Bibles because some people profess only the KJV is the TRUE Bible).

Mark 10:13 (references Matthew 19:13-15; Luke 18:15-17 more for the fundies if they are reading ), "People were bringing little children to him in order that he might touch them; and the disciples spoke sternly to them. 14 "But when Jesus saw this, he was indignant and said to them "Let the little children come to me; do not stop them; for it is to such as these that the kingdom of God belongs.15 Truly I tell you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will never enter it."16 And he took them up in his arms, laid his hands on them, and blessed them...."

[bliss_eternal]

20. I would think they would interpret this part

Truly I tell you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will never enter it."

to mean that they must 'baptize' children--so they will go to heaven and inherit the kingdom. I personally don't interpret it that way, but I think they would.

Which brings up the other issue that I have. Interpretation. Everyone is bound to have a different interpretation of any text of any book--that's just the way it is. Like I was taught in English class, there are as many interpretations of any text as their are readers--if you can find evidence within the book to support your interpretation, then it can be reasonably interpreted this way.

There are hundreds, thousands or more pastors, ministers, etc. in the united states alone. Wouldn't many of them have different interpretations of the bible? They can't ALL agree with the texts...So how can it--the bible be the gospel truth of how people should live, etc.?

Thanks for providing the actual verses, scriptures--it does help to see them as written! :hi:

[I_Make_Mistakes]

22. That was an interesting take on that passage. I still don't buy it,

but I see what you are saying as a valid point. The thing is Jesus, blessed not baptized them. We don't actually know whether they had been baptized or not.

14 "But when Jesus saw this, he was indignant and said to them "Let the little children come to me; do not stop them; for it is to such as these that the kingdom of God belongs.

I see that part as they are not tainted by the world, they are still purer in heart then we adults are. You see, the adults felt they were more clean (pure, searching for words.).

I see what you are saying, though, and I am not sure how to read the Bible now, trying to see it their way. Thank you so much for opening my eyes!

[bliss_eternal]

27. LOL! LOL! I'm not buying what they're selling either!

It's a big bag of poo as far as I'm concerned.

I like the way you guys interpret this text! I feel it stays within the heart of who Jesus was and what he was about. It hurts me when they find ways to interpret the text that excludes entire segments of the population as somehow unworthy to stand before god...

It really chaps my hide!

[shrike]

23. That was always my interpretation

Those who have the best of childhood in them -- an open heart, curious mind, joy and enthusiasm for living -- are Christ's followers. Nothing to do with "physically" being a child.

[RevCheesehead]

24. Very true. Some of the youngest people I know are in their 80's.

I don't want to grow up - I'm a Toys R Us Kid.

[bliss_eternal]

26. Yeah--me too!

:)

[bliss_eternal]

25. I like this interpretation!!!

I would like to think that THIS interpretation is closest to what we should all be striving for (as christians, or followers--if one is of course).

[I_Make_Mistakes]

28. Oh my goodness, it was a revelation to me. I don't know how I

grew up with the love for others and so very judgmental of others. It just occurred to me, I might have been a RW nut case (sans God)!

I just had an Oprah moment! I was not brought up in a faith, because my parents had conflicting faiths. And, yet the judgmental side was there, not sure how.

When I truly became a Christian (baptized and confirmed in early years) at 29, I started to change and have not stopped!

I actually like myself more now and will continue to keep on learning, growing and not judging others!

That passage was not memorized (the RW'ers commit to memory several passages to freak us out, but this one was emblazoned in my heart!).

It opened me to a whole new world and a whole new understanding, if you continue to learn and open your heart only the Lord knows where you (me included) will go!