Conservative Anglicans still threatening to split over Gays

[GreenPartyVoter]

PITTSBURGH (AP) - An international panel of Anglican bishops called upon a gathering of their conservative American counterparts Friday to split from the rest of the U.S. Episcopal Church.

<snip>

The network is headed by Pittsburgh's Episcopal Bishop Robert W. Duncan. He helped form the group in 2003 after the Episcopal Church in the United States consecrated an openly gay priest, Gene Robinson, as bishop of New Hampshire and gave tacit approval to blessing services for same-sex couples.

Although Duncan's group represents a minority of Episcopalians in the 2.3 million-member American church, his group's views are shared by a majority of bishops in the 77 million-member worldwide Anglican Communion, said Douglas LeBlanc, spokesman for Duncan's Anglican Communion Network.

<snip>

Supporters of church policy on gays, meanwhile, have labeled Duncan and his backers as "neo-Puritan" Protestant fundamentalists.

http://apnews1.iwon.com/article/20051111/D8DQDPE85.html

[realisticphish]

1. I think this is going to start happening more and more

as more churches become accepting of gays, and the others become more psychotic in their condemnation of them, many many churches will start splitting and reforming in the next 10 years or so. this is going to be one heck of a time to be a minister

[supernova]

2. This might eventually happen to the Presby church too

We've split before. But the main denom that I belong to now, PCUSA, has had battles over sexuality for years.

They finally settled, for now, on something called-- I kid you not-- "chastity in singleness." It means that if you are single and want to be an officer of the church or a minister, you will be celibate, period.

Oh, and they don't support gay marriages, or civil unions, blessing ceremonies, or whatever you want to call that rite, either.

So, if you are gay and feel a call to serve, you can just forget about being presby. Or you can join and consider yourself a euunch. Which is sad, because on most other human rights issues, PCSUA usually gets it right.

I can only pray that the church will come to its senses, perhaps in a 100 years. It took them 300 years to ordain women. But they did do that in 1970.

On a personal level, I find the "chastity in singleness" clause revolting. It's revolting because it treats otherwise grown adults as if they were children. If the congregation thinks enough of a person to want them to be an elder or minister, to entrust the leadership of that church to that person, then they should be able to trust that person to run their private life with the same maturity. But, no. You're single, so we're going to impose a curfew on you. :eyes:

And this was all done to keep out promiscuous gays. Yes, I know, most gay people I know aren't promiscuous, er, nomoreso than straights, in any event.

*Sigh* The forrest for the trees.

edit: I'll take it a step further. I find it revolting because when you talk about adults, not all of us get it right the first time. Not all of us find someone to marry and have that marriage work out to be a loving, positive thing in our lives. So, we still fumble around with dating and relationships on into our adult lives. I have not a doubt in my mind that this "chastity in singleness" was meant to keep gays (remember conservatives think gay=promiscuous) out of leadership positions of the church, which is bad enough. But it also catches up people like me who occasionally make furtive attempts at romantic attachments. What am I supposed to do? Go to church and keep my mouth shut? Just don't talk about that aspect of my life? In that case I ask, what is church for if I can't be my whole self there? I don't want to lie and I'm tired of keeping quiet.

It's not that I date a lot, in fact I can go years between dates (see The DU Loners Group); but I'm not a nun either. Im quite capable of making responsible choices. But the bottom line is the church, the institution doesn't trust me. :-( And it hurts. I'm not "enough" the way I am.... the way God made me.

Now, I'll give my congregation some credit. Likely if I started up a relationship it wouldn't be a big deal. People would be happy for me, I'm sure. I'm no longer active on the session anyway at this time. But I'm still an elder and still bound.

Wow! Guess I had to get that off my chest. Thanks for reading.

[GreenPartyVoter]

3. Where do the "More Light" presby churches fit in there? Are they

likely to leave or is it the conservatives who will go?

[supernova]

5. I have no idea

The ML and the "confessing churches" are competing sects within PCUSA right now. Of the two, I think the confessing churches are the later ones. But they pretty much divde the church. The spectrum works this way:

ML ----------->>>> Main PCSUA------->>>>> Confessing Church

My particular church is smack dab in the middle. I don't see them becoming a ML church any time soon. Though that would be great.

[Maat]

19. I really DO appreciate this explanation of what is going on in the ..

Presbyterian church.

We've formed a progressive and spiritual interfaith group.

This helps.

I research the hardcore religious right quite a bit ... I'm just guessing where Coral Ridge Presbyterian in Florida (and D. James Kennedy) fits on the continuum (the far right).

[RevCheesehead]

20. He was seduced by the dark side.

In the late 70's, early 80's, he was a pretty good moderate preacher. But when the Moral Majority started raking in the $$, he had to make a choice: adapt, or die. So he turned to the dark side of Religious Nationalism... and guess what? The $$ started coming in, and all sorts of things began to happen for him.

"For what will it profit someone if they were to gain the whole world, but lose their soul?"

[Maat]

21. That makes sense - thanks for the info.

I've only known him as a member of the Religious Right; many start out behaving rationally ... then seduced by the siren song of money.

[RevCheesehead]

22. He apparently was a really great preacher.

My dad bought all his biblical commentaries (he wanted to be a minister once). But after he became political, Dad got fed up.

There are lots of disheartened Liberal Christians out there. I wish more pastors realized that.

[Maat]

23. You're right about that!

Take care, Rev.!

:patriot:

On edit:
I, myself, might have been seduced by the zillions in cash; I'd like to think not, but ..

Rob Boston, of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, basically called Kennedy a 'non-player' anymore; if I were a "Kennedy/Falwell/Roberson/Dobson" kind of character, that would hurt.

[supernova]

27. More about Coral Ridge

I didn't know anything about Coral Ridge, I tend to stay away from televangalists. I will however listen to a local broadcast of a service, the kind of thing local TV stations used to do.

So, I went digging. I looked at the Coral Ridge Website and I can't find anything that connects them with PCUSA. In fact they seem to be independent. I couldn't find PCA links, either. PCA is Presbyterian Church in America: same church governemental style, but way more dogmatic and austere. (no female ministers or elders, for instance)

[RevCheesehead]

4. At least they got the word right.

In the UMC, the prohibition is for clergy only - and they use both "faithfulness in marriage and celibacy in singleness." Idiots. Celibacy is a lifetime vow, and a calling - not everyone is meant to be celebate.

I think of chastity as meaning "with discretion" (= don't sleep around). At least they are including married persons in the covenant... if you're married, you don't boink anyone else but your spouse. And look at it this way: at least they're talking about sex. That's pretty amazing in itself.

I agree. Let's make life as miserable as possible for single people, so they don't feel welcomed. Should I choose to enter into a relationship with someone, we will have to "date" out of town.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

6. Yep, the conservatives have entered the ELCA, too! If they

prevail, I will run (not walk away, I am not gay, but a sinner, none the less!).

I actually had a talk with my RC aunt (serious church goer) and it went like this .

Me "I think the RW saw a big voter population in your church and invaded it, (with so called Priest's and clergy!".

She said, "You may be right!".

My RW wacko RC friend (she was the biggest recreational drug abuser that I have ever met) used to boast about the SBC Pastor that became an RC priest (was sponsored on the local call in Catholic radio shows).

He was very conservative, and spread his conservatism throughout the area. Her parish was instrumental in spreading the 3 days of darkness rumor, denounced by the Vatican(within the last year).

The point is, I think the RW will stoop to all means to further their agenda (invading churches, and inundating themselves in the local clergy), and the Book of Judith may fuel the fire!

[supernova]

7. We've had a RW contingient all along

It's nothing new in the Presby church, but I've never heard of people jumping denoms just to make them more conservative. That's nuts.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

18. And the RW'ers aren't nuts! Please, I actually witnessed a wingnut

justify wealth accumulation with this argument Jesus had robes of the finest quality! So, Jesus took collections, to buy great clothes!

They are nuts, and have no sense of reality.

[supernova]

8. That's a definition of chastity

I haven't heard. I thought it was meant to mean "abstinent."

... at least they're talking about sex. Well, that's true. I should be grateful for that at least. It isn't a completely taboo subject in PCUSA.

I agree. Let's make life as miserable as possible for single people, so they don't feel welcomed

I've often thought about this. I used to think it was OK to be part of a community that is mostly families. But now, it irks me in some ways. Without taking anything away from families, churches are so family-focused, they sorta forget about those of us who are single. We do have certain needs for social connection that church doesn't meet, even aside from the sexual stringencies.

I think when you are single, you have a greater need for having more foot traffic in your life. Seeing the same people all the time, might not be the best thing for you. Especially if you are looking for a partner or just want good friends. They aren't always in the same place, and you won't find them going to the same place every week. People who are in families or who are family-oriented just don't see it. When do they ever celebrate single people at church? Almost never.

And too, it sometimes makes me sad when they honor mothers or point out how wonderful Mary was, when I'm 99% certain motherhood isn't my path in life. I'm 43, I think it would have happened by now if it were going to. I'm ok with it; but there's a lot of unspoken background noise of this type that I have to tune out.

[RevCheesehead]

9. supernova, you echo much of what I feel.

I keep reminding my colleagues that we are NOT called to glorify the traditional family unit. We are called into ONE family, thru our baptism. In that family, single, married, divorced, widowed all are equal. And the needs of all of the people should be met.

On Mother's Day and Father's Day, I always include in my prayers those who would like to become parents, but for whatever reason have not, and the pain that often accompanies childlessness. If it were up to me, we would stop doing these celebrations, and leave them to Hallmark. At least here, when they pass out the flowers, they give them to EVERY woman present (not just "moms") and every man (not just "dads").

Funny. I, too, am 43, and in similar circumstances. It's good to know I have at least one kindred spirit out there! :hug:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

11. One of the reasons that I left the Lutheran church was their unrelenting

emphasis on "family this" and "family that," with family meaning Mom and Dad, the two kids, the dog, and the cat living in suburbia.

I heard a horror story about a church picnic at which attendees were given name tags. The choices were Papa Bear, Mama Bear, and Baby Bear. The woman who told the story was 45 and single, and was quite hurt that the organizers of the picnic had assumed that everyone was in a nuclear family. But she finally decided to tough it out and take a "Baby Bear" name tag on the grounds that she was a "child of God."

The Episcopal Church, with its large GLBT contingent, is of necessity more single-friendly than the Lutheran Church. They just have to look at their congregations to see that one size doesn't fit all.

Aside from the youth groups for various ages and the GLBT ministry committee, my church has no social groups dependent on marital or parental status.

[RevCheesehead]

12. How horrifying!

See, I would have taken a Papa Bear nametag, ripped it's head off, and called myself Goldilocks. But, that's just me. :evilgrin:

[supernova]

14. Dear sister RC

:hug: It is good to find another one here, too.

[pelagius]

10. As an active Episcopalian...

...who serves as a vestryman and Sunday school teacher, my advice to the conservatives is "Don't let the chapel door hit you where the Good Lord split you."

There's room for everyone in our local church except those who insist that certain people don't belong.

I'm proud that our church is known in our conservative community as a safe place for all people wherever they may be on their faith journey.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

13. Not to mention the fact that I've never seen an Episcopal parish that

wouldn't totally fall apart were it not for the devotion and voluntarism of its gay and lesbian members.

[RevCheesehead]

15. Think of the music programs!

I went to a school well-known for its music program. And the Lord's honest truth is that at least 1/2 of the students in the Church Music program were gay. It was at that school that I shed any lingering prejudice against gays and lesbians, because I found out they were my friends, AND many of my teachers as well.

"For God's sake, won't someone think of the MUSIC!?!"

[Lydia Leftcoast]

16. Yeah, my stepfather was a professional organist, and one day when I

was visiting, one of his former students came over for lunch.

This young man looked and acted as gay as it is possible to look and act, and I was startled to learn that his profession was writing soundtracks for straight-to-video fundamentalist movies.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

17. Maybe we should start a single people's church. I always felt

guilty for not being able to give more at offering. It was on Beliefnet and Bill Mahr, that I came to understand why my larger salaries weren't providing a standard of living that would provide more.

First let me state, I have never and never will complain about the high school taxes (I live in NJ, we have the highest property taxes in the country). Education is the greatest equalizer (for those of varying challenges) in the world.

I did however, learn that two people in one household (not necessarily married or heterosexual) get a significant break in car insurance (we are also one of the leaders in car insurance in the nation, if not #1, in the top 5).

I did my income taxes one year, using my wacko RW Catholic friend's family situation. Here it goes, 3 dependent children, (she worked and was very high up (top 2% and ahead of her husband) before she decided her children were more important than money, yes, I give her alot of credit).

That year, if I could've worked the entire year,(Lyme, disease for 3yrs. before diagnosed) would have made approx. 120,000.

So, I did my income taxes based on a full year salary, with 3 dependent children and non-working spouse. I did only use my pitiful mortgage deduction and property taxes (theirs are much higher, you will understand when you read below), and childcare etc., that she uses.

They would come out over $12,000/ year, after taxes, ahead of me. Their mortgage and property tax deductions are much higher because they have a 4 bedroom, large house with a built in pool and an acre of land (which means even more deductions per year.

I can't help more financially, because the gov't is already doing it for me. I no longer feel guilty about not doing more, because it is already being done for me, unfortunately, in too many cases for those that have alot more than me! I figure, her braces were paid for by us single people (5000/yr. medical plan exclusion).

I have no problem with providing education for all, but, when was it decided that we had to help those raise their children too!

If things had turned out differently for me (met the right person) I would have had alot of children. I would have never expected other's to pay for them!

She and I talked and agreed on this, Thank God I don't have children, because with the Lyme I can't always take care of myself, so, it is better that I don't have little one's to be responsible for when I don't have the physical strength to take care of myself.

[flamingyouth]

24. Agreed.

I've been attending St. Mark's Cathedral in Seattle, where our Dean is openly gay and in a committed relationship. When he came here a few years ago, he really revitalized the Cathedral. Membership is up, in part, I think because by his very presence St. Mark's is known as a welcoming place.

He is also a white South African who had to leave SA in 1980 because of his anti-apartheid activities. So he's very committed to making the Cathedral more racially diverse (and that is something we could work on, honestly).

I loved your post, especially this part: There's room for everyone in our local church except those who insist that certain people don't belong.

Well done. :thumbsup:

[elshiva]

25. I am also an active Episcopalian and closeted bisexual

Thanks be to God that our parish Immanuel Episcopal of Glencoe, MD is welcoming to gays, we put it in our welcoming statement on our bulletin.
But then again, the Diocese of MD is fairly liberal and our bishops were for Robinson.

Please pray for The GLBT Episcopalians... THanks!

[kwassa]

26. Also in a very liberal Episcopal diocese, Washington D.C.

I know many gay clergy, as well as parishioners. Even so, there are some individual churches that extremely conservative, ones that refused to recognize the Bishop Jane Dixon, another that attempted to bring in a priest from the conservative Texas diocese without permission and take the church out of the diocese.