A respectful question from a non-christian

[KitchenWitch]

Why is it that the RW Christian churches are so gung ho for the death penalty. Didn't Jesus preach pacifism and tolerance, and to turn the other cheek?

I am really confused and tortured tonight. What Tookie Williams did was wrong, but I do not think it is alright for the State of California to kill him for it. That does not spell justice to me.

[RevCheesehead]

1. Well, here's my answer:

Jesus already paid the death penalty. He did so willingly and of his own free will, so that people like Tookie, and people like me, wouldn't have to face the ultimate punishment for our sins.

If we truly were a "Christian Nation," we'd abolish the death penalty as unnecessary, and let the judging of someone's life be left to God.

"Thou shalt not kill." I'm pretty sure that's in the bible... somewhere.

[KitchenWitch]

2. Thanks Ruth!

I can always count on you for a sane and thoughtful answer...

I am so sad right now.

[I_Make_Mistakes]

3. I agree with the Rev. and also add that when the Father decided

the coming, passing and resurrection of Jesus, He did it with the wrongness of State sponsored execution in mind. Jesus was executed under the same principal of the current death penalty, State sponsored murder, I don't think it was coincidental!

[Bluerthanblue]

4. also look at Cain-

'God' could, no, should have killed Cain- but he showed mercy.

And look at how God is said to have felt after the flood- massive murder- of men women and children-
He felt REMORSEFUL- and vowed never to do that again.

Did God kill the romans for killing Jesus?
How about Jael who rammed a tent peg through a mans skull while he slept?
Moses who killed an Egyptian?
David who had Uriah killed?

Lots of murderers in the ot weren't executed.
Man kills- and often covers that by saying "God said...God wanted... God ordered..."

Who did Christ ever kill????
just what does the 'Christ" in christian mean anyway?

You have heard it said, and eye for an eye- tooth for tooth- but I say DO GOOD TO THOSE WHO HURT YOU-

And in DEED that is exactly what He did.

[RevCheesehead]

5. And - God DIDN'T kill Adam or Eve...

Even though the punishment was death: if they ate the fruit, or touched it, they would die. (Genesis 2:2-3)

[Bluerthanblue]

6. that's right, although

when i was a ...'fundie' .. and questioned that, i was told that indeed God DID 'kill' them - (or not lie when he said they'd die) it just took a long time.
Supposedly we were going to live forever, always- and A&E introduced death, by eating of the tree of knowledge, (but not the tree of life)......
He supposedly got them out of the garden before they could eat of the tree of life, so that they wouldn't be 'eternally dead'-

i was in deep.

Now i'm deep in.- but unafraid to question, doubt, wonder and learn.

[Rabrrrrrr]

7. Because they believe in the authority of the Old Testament over the New

at least, those parts of the OT that allow them to judge others and not themselves.

Seriously, I can't think of any decent theological reason for their viewpoint - some of their beliefs I can see where they are coming from, even if I disagree with them, but on the point of death penalty all I see is that they have an obsession with the OT law and have bought very much into a social/cultural system of "might makes right" and mob mentality.

[hvn_nbr_2]

8. Well, theoretically they put the New T above the Old T

But in practice, they put fear, anger, hate, self-righteousness, and revenge above all. Whenever an OT quote serves the purposes of fear, anger, hate, self-righteousness, and revenge, they use it.

[Rabrrrrrr]

10. True - THEY won't say they put the OT over the New,

but WE can easily point out that, in effect, they do. :-)

It is interesting how they never pull out the **constant** OT theme, esp. in the prophets, about taking care of the widows, the orphans, the foreigners, the strangers, the slaves, and the oppressed.

[Rabrrrrrr]

11. In fact,

They love to point out destruction due ot the sins that they don't like, but completely gloss over the even greater destruction that happened because of the sins that they commit. To whit, the love to constantly harp that Sodom was destroyed because of the sin of homosexuality (even though it was actually lack of hospitality); but never mention that the prophets are in total agreement that God let Israel and Judah be destroyed because they failed to take care of the least in their society.

[StoryTeller]

9. As one who grew up this way...

I might be able to answer your question from their perspective, though my own views have since changed.

I think the reason that a lot of conservative churches are for the DP is because it's traditional. Yes, they can proof-text scripture to support it. But really, it seems like a lot of these seemingly inconsistent views from conservative Christians have a lot more to do with how hard they are grabbing onto what they perceive is "godly heritage" rather than a sound theological argument. In my experience, we spent little time really learning the theological basis for most of these cultural issues. I was taught a chain of incorrect assumptions like 1) everyone involved in the founding of our country was Christian, 2) therefore, God favored America and blessed it, 3) therefore, our nation's history and traditions are sanctioned by God, 4) therefore, we should react strongly when "secular," "humanistic" people attack those traditions or fail to teach (our version of) history. The fear is that if we lose those traditions, then God will stop blessing and favoring America and we'll all be in deep do-do.

It's never put forward that bluntly or concisely, but that was the message I was given, anyway. It's sad because it puts otherwise loving and compassionate Christians in the position of having to twist scriptures or interpret them irresponsibly in order to justify things like the death penalty. It's true that the OT used capital punishment for a LOT of offenses that we would never dream of using it for today. But most conservative Christians are not really taught how to responsibly read and interpret those texts, and the result is a lot of illogical, convoluted arguments.

I hope that makes a little bit of sense???

[Maat]

12. It does, as much as anything.

That's where my in-laws' thinking is at right now.

Sad.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

16. I think that you're making a lot of sense and that

a lot of the retreat into fundamentalism is actually a sort of "future shock." There's a substantial portion of the population that wants the world to stay forever the way it was when they were growing up, and any societal changes will provoke a backlash from them.

As one who graduated from college in 1972, I see the re-election of Nixon and the election of Reagan as reactions by a public disturbed by societal changes: the hippies and the civil rights movement in 1972, and environmentalism and feminism in 1980.

The social conservatives are understandably disturbed by crime, especially the way it's emphasized in the mass media, and they're stuck on the idea of punishment and in a primitive ethic of vengeance and retribution. (They don't want to think about the fact that criminals start out as newborn babies and that most of them were warped by parents or foster parents who were themselves into crime, alcoholism, physical and sexual abuse, neglect, drug addiction, any of the above, or all of the above). Add to this unfocused and misdirected anger at the many economic injustices that are built into our system, and you have an angry working class and middle class who delight in executions and applaud steps to make prisons more brutal.

The reasoning goes, "I have to work at two jobs to make ends meet, and those prisoners get to sit on their asses all day and be supported by the taxpayers."

[StoryTeller]

17. Future shock

That's a REALLY good point! Maybe it's all part of that "information overload" that people talk about with the internet and such. There have been a LOT of cultural changes in a relatively short amount of time--50 years or so just isn't long enough for an entire society to adjust.

I need to remember things like that because I'm very comfortable with change (if there's need for it) and it's easy for me to get impatient with...well, the majority of people I know, because they resist change with all their hearts. But if I can remember that our society as a whole is still in shock, then maybe it will help me be more patient with them. :)

[FreedomAngel82]

13. I don't know either

This Christian is against the death penalty and thinks it should be banned.

[KitchenWitch]

14. I appreciate all of your insights

Thank you!

[MemphisTiger]

15. Many Christian denominations are against capital punishment

I think Southern Baptists and Presbyterian, PCA are the only ones that condone this practice.

[lady raven]

18. That's an excellent question, kw!

And it's one that I really don't know the answer to. I could come up with several "explanations", but all of them defy logic...