The lost books of Judas have been found and translated. Now if

[frankly_fedup2]

they would continue to let out the rest of the lost books of the Bible, we may just know the truth of Christianity.

This Sunday night, April 8th, at 8 p.m. on the National Geographic channel.

[Rabrrrrrr]

1. Well, it all depends, of course, on what you mean by "truth".

To say that the lost books are any more true than the non-lost books is to fall into the same fallacy as those who say that the non-lost ones are truer than the lost ones.

It all depends on one's vantage point, since they are so dramatically different.


I don't like people looking at the lost books and claiming they show a more "true" form of Christianity than the canonical books, pushed undercover by a religious conspiracy or Roman Empire politicking or whatever the bete noir du jour happens to be.

I also don't like people looking at the lost books and saying that they have no truth in them at all because they aren't canonical; that they are lost for a reason, or that they were just written be people suffering from sour grapes, or whatever that particular bete noir du jour happens to be.

It's just silliness either way.

[realisticphish]

2. to me

i look at it as simply another book in the bible. That is, something to be assimilated with the rest of christian theology, not to replace it

[supernova]

3. Not a "truer" picturer, but a fuller one

Over the last ... I'd say 7 or 6 years I've become really fascinated with the era of church history that predates the Council at Nicea. The chief reason is that I got frustrated with traditional theology, as it has come down to us. It just wasn't working for me anymore. And I started looking deeper.

I find it both heartwarming and reassuring that the diversity of thought in theology was there from the beginning. I think we need to reclaim that and celebrate it, rather than keep it hidden.

I do agree with you though, that these other books are neither the salvation nor the damnation of the church in and of themselves. Just extra material that we can now avail ourselves of and gain a fuller picture of that time and place.

[Rabrrrrrr]

4. have you read much of the non-canonical stuff?

There are some books out with the other Gospels - such as Thomas, Mary, etc. and some other early church writings. I especially love "The Infancy Gospel of Thomas", in which Jesus brings twelve clay birds to life, and in which he angrily kills another child for bumping his shoulder.


"Documents for the Study of the Gospels" is a book we used in my NT class that has a lot of the non-canonical stuff, as well as a lot of Greek writings that don't involve Christianity or Judaism at all, but which are very similar in form and content to the early Christian writings.

Great stuff!

[supernova]

5. I'm just starting to get into it

It's only recently come to my attention that these materials were out there for the lay person to read, not locked away in high-level seminary courses.

I want to read all the books on the subject I can get my hands on, including the Gnostic texts. I just bought Bart Ehrman's three books:

Lost Scriptures: Books that Did Not Make It into the New Testament
Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why
Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew

I need to read Elaine Pagels' work too. What other works do you suggest?

I tried at Beliefnet.com for a while in a vain attempt to find these materials --I didn't know them by name then or what exactly I was looking for --, but Beliefnet wasn't what I thought it was going to be. Mostly it was fundamentalist xtains arguing, I wouldn't dignify it by calling it debate, with other more theologically liberal xtians. They even called that forum "Christian Cagematch." :rofl:

I find it comforting too, on a level, that we ourselves have narrowed our thinking on the meaning of Jesus and the traditional story. That means we can widen it again and perhaps make room for others in the wider church community who have turned away because of overly orthodox doctrinnaire churches. And more importantly, that it's alright with God. :-) I dunno, maybe it was His way of keeping these materials until we were ready to handle them? :shrug:

I'll be honest, it started with me because my old church used the lectionary that PCUSA puts out. It takes them 3 years to work their way through the bible this way. In and of itself, it's is not a bad thing. Certain people are comforted by the repetition. The familiar equals permanence and stability in a lot of peoples' minds. That's certainly true of the old stalwarts at that church.

But I found myself being vaguely discomfited by hearing the same sermons at the same time every year, (it seemed to me) not progressing in my understanding anymore. It was a feeling of coming up just to the gate, without walking through it. :shrug: The educational materials were so bland and so devoid of anything new to say that I felt llke I was missing out on something important by remaining there. My God, they could suck the passion right out of The Passion.

I realized I was more motivated to follow my own curiosity more than I was to remain there. I openly admit that I'm intellectually restless. No matter the subject, if I start getting the feeling that I'm not progressing in my understanding of a field or body of knowledge, then I feel a need to move on to a place where my mind can get the exercise it needs.

While I'm not cut out for any leadership roles in the church or anything (I'm too shy), I do sometimes wish I had a mentor who enjoyed discussing these things. I'm not sure how to find others like me. Mostly when I go to church, whereever, it seems people want to talk only so far and not any more. *Sigh* Maybe I'm just too nerdy. :crazy:

[RevCheesehead]

6. If you have a Methodist church in your area,

find out if they have a Disciple Bible Study class. It's a 1-year, in-depth study of scripture. There's a lot of reading involved, and weekly 2-hour meetings. I've taught it, and every single person who took it was thrilled with their experience. It really opened their eyes to see the Bible as a whole; and explains why the Bible is not meant to be taken "literally." There are also levels 2, 3, and 4 - which go into even more detail of specific sections.

And no, you don't have to be a member of the church, or even be attending it. Just tell them you're interested in learning more. If they're a halfway decent church, they should have no problem with you joining the class.

(oh, and the manual is only $20 - not bad at all)

[supernova]

7. While this sounds intriguing

and I'm glad the Methodist church does this, I could only participate if the group was no more than about 3 or 4. Due to my extreme introversion, groups bigger than that tend to overwhelm me and I don't participate. These groups become events I just endure rather than find rewarding.

I'm really looking for something that I can do quasi-independently so than I have more opportunities not just for study, but to articulate my thinking.

[undergroundpanther]

8. The reason the Gospel of Judas

pissed off Iraneus was this book redeemed a scapegoat the early orthodox church wanted to demonize. The gnostics were a threat to Rome and to the Orthodoxy because did not want a "king" did not need an authoritarian structure or hierarchy of preists to tell them who god was and to sacrifice. Also Gnostics admit this world is corrupt,and the creator of this world is evil and it is a fool and a bloody faced monster..And I for one agree with the Gnostics this world is a cesspool of suffering and the creator of this world does not deserve love or worship cause' it is sickening. I can't wait for liberation when my flesh dies.
The Gospel of Judas speaks of Jesus's liberation which came when the flesh that covered him is killed.Judas made the whole liberation plan possible. He is a hero. There is no bodily ressurection.Flesh is prison.
Just spiritual ressurection and not all beings or people have souls to be redeemed. Gnostics were dualists. They did not play games and call evil good or minimize it.Sociopaths,pedophiles,tyrants, torturers and rapists don't have a soul. That is why they can do the evil they do and think they do no wrong.Some people face severe trauma and are not wounded by it.Because they have no soul that can be wounded by trauma.
Also the Gospel of Judas does away with the concept of hell.
Evil and it's creation dissolves away when spirit and soul leave it.

[regnaD kciN]

9. No, the reason is right in your own post...

The Gospel of Judas speaks of Jesus's liberation which came when the flesh that covered him is killed.

That's the strict dualism (matter = evil, spirit = good) typical of gnostic thought, and which only emerged within Christianity when it moved into Greek and Roman culture, which already had (non-Christian) gnostic mystery religions and schools of philosophy with the same dualistic attitude.

This attitude is very unlike the Jewish culture from which Jesus sprang. And it seems highly unlikely to me that Jesus would be, essentially, a Greek mind trapped in a Jewish culture.

The canonical gospels reflect the "holistic" Jewish world-view. The gnostic gospels, which most reliable scholars agree were written much later, have the Greek/Roman world-view found in non-Christian gnostic thought. It seems to me more of a case of gnostics melding their ideas with that of Christianity, and writing new "gospels" to put their own ideas in Jesus's mouth (sound similar to anything we see around us today?). That's one reason I find gnosticism quite unconvincing as a manifestation of "original" Christianity.

[undergroundpanther]

10. Dude, I AM dualist.

I do separate the flesh or body from spirit. They are two different things. Like apples and oranges.

Dualism is scapegoated by monists and all is one types everywhere(they just can't seem to understand that some forms of dualism is healthy and honest) and the monist all is one habit of muddling of good and evil or spirit and flesh has really made alot of people twist themselves and their ethics into pretzels justifying to the world why bad things happen to good people ..They have no answer either god is evil and good and that makes it not worthy of worship or things are dual..there is two realities overlapping one good and one of evil,and the struggle to make dualism a monism that is good while it is evil has made alot of people quite ethically relativistic to the point they have no ethics unless it effects them personally..