What do you all think of this,if you are Christians???

[undergroundpanther]

Was Orisrus the savior before jesus and what was this savior thing saving us from..Could it be each other?



http://paganizingfaithofyeshua.netfirms.com/no_1_original_saviour_gods_orisis.htm

[RevCheesehead]

1. Umm, what is the point of this?

I'm familiar with all this stuff, and it doesn't detract from my faith.

This group is for Christians and other like-minded persons, to discuss our faith and other issues in an environment free from the challenges that usually appear in the Religion/Theology group.

So I ask again, what is the point of this thread? :shrug:

[Rabrrrrrr]

2. OMG! OMG! You're right, Christianity has similaries to other religions!!

Religions that are older than Christianity! OMG!! Virgin birth stories in other cultures! Savior stories from other cultures!! Flood stories from other cultures!! REsurrection from the dead from other cultures!! OMG! Obviously Christianity is bullshit!

How could I not have seen that!! I have now embraced Egyptian religion. Thanks for pointing this out.






No, seriously, though, why don't you take this bullshit over to R/T? You chose the wrong forum for the kind of flamebait, insulting discussion you are looking for.

[RevCheesehead]

3. *snork*

:rofl:


No, seriously - you slay me! :rofl:

[undergroundpanther]

4. I brought this up..

Because I ask you,how do you defend Pagan people when Christians who are into jesus like yourselves.. act as bigots to us? I brought this up not just to say your religion is a variation on an ancient theme. Christianity because it is a variation on a theme has no right to a preferred status in America or and other places ..Especially when the state adopts it,Why do christians want to convert people?? Why if you see the similarities,than do you not step up and defend your pagan brothers of a different name? Different appearing god?From the bigots in your own ranks?

Why do you let your christian brethren be bigots to us?

I have been chased by christians with knives.Because I was wearing A pentagram.

[TreasonousBastard]

5. Say what? I have no control over....

my "Christian brethren" nor do I have any interest in hunting down those I might consider heretical, or at least less than Christ-like. I generally limit my activities to trying to at least slow the infusion of religious dogma into public life.

Now, I certainly agree that chasing you down with a knife is bad behavior and steps should be taken, and should I have the opportunity I would assist in any way possible. But, as with so many things, it is not really my responsibility that some criminal who claims to act in the name of my religion causes trouble.

[Rabrrrrrr]

6. Funny. I don't remember ever not defending my non-Christian brothers

AND sisters, and I speak to both my Christian brethren AND sisters on the behalf of the non-Chrsitian.

(though you would have us only defend your brothers and speak to our brothers, I am an inclusivist, and thus and so speak to and defend both genders, and, though we have no similar word for transgendered/sexuals (transgendethren? Sounds horrible), I defend and speak to them as well).

When you can point out where I, specifically me, have not done so in either direction, please let me know; then I will consider your post.

Also, you conflated two completely unrelated ideas in your sentence

Especially when the state adopts it,Why do christians want to convert people??

Christians tend to want to convert, or at least to share the Good News, because that is what we are called to do - we believe we have incredibly good news, that the GOd of the universe came to earth in human form to suffer along with us and die offer himself as a sacrifice to our own sin to show us how much we are loved. I think that's worth sharing. Unfortunately, some of the assholes think that the call to evangelism means forced or coerced conversion, or the telling of a story of how God so hates everyone who isn't Christian He'll (in their theology, God is always a capital-h He) send them straight to hell and laugh about it. But, given the understanding that the assholes have, I think it's clear also why they want to convert - they care about people's souls.

But the desire to convert, or, more lessly to at least share the Good News, has nothing to do with whether a state adopts Christianity. Usually, it's the other way around - the assholes are so convinced that only Christians can be decent moral people, that they insist that the government be Christian to keep everyone in line. It's a totally fucked up, evil misreading of the Biblical texts and evil interpretation of the story, but there you go.

But beyond saying, "hey - I think everyone gets into heaven, stop being a bigot" when I see bigotry, there ain't much I can do. I ain't God.

You ask:

Why do you let your christian brethren be bigots to us?

While I appreciate that you think I have the powers of God, or at least close to, I am sorry to inform that I am very and quite human, with all the limitations thereof. I have no power to do that which you ask, so please stop asking it of me, or anyone else. I do not "let" them be bigots - they just are. It is beyond my power to change them; it is even beyond my power to "let" them be who they are. They are who they by their own power. I can try to sway them to think different, but I cannot change them; only they can change themselves. This is a mistake many people make when they get into relationships, too: "I can change him!" Bullshit.

[Critters2]

7. Why do I "let" them?

How would I stop 'em? Those who would do such things have no more respect for me than they do for you. I stop knife-wielding morans by paying my taxes, which supports the local constabulary.

What would you have me to do?

This really is flame-bait. You should probably head back over to R/T, where they enjoy this kind of crap.

[Rabrrrrrr]

8. Yes, Mycritters2, why do YOU let them. You got some 'splainin' to do.

:harumph:

[Critters2]

9. I've been busy--packing, unpacking, writing sermons,

visiting the sick...but it's on my "to do" list. Honest!

See--there it is--

Get groceries
Change cat litter
convert knife-wielding fundy crazies to Progressive Christianity (or else!)
hair cut
laundry
deposit paycheck

I'll try to get to it after visiting tomorrow afternoon.

Sorry!

[RevCheesehead]

10. We really need a harumphing smiley.

This doesn't do enough (or it does too much): :spank:

[Rabrrrrrr]

11. Yes, we really do.

And the footstomping smilie doesn't quite do it, either.

[RevCheesehead]

12. I think I'll post this request in the lounge.

Plenty of harumphers in there. :)

[Rabrrrrrr]

13. We need a harumph for the OP who is suspiciously absent after dropping the

grenade in the room.

Perhaps he/she had a moment of remorse last night, and realizes what an ass-y kind of post the OP was, and so has judiciously decided to just let this thread die the death that it deserves.

[RevCheesehead]

14. People are harumphing all over DU.

And jumping into groups to launch their own :freak:bombs.
I suspect an infiltration.

[Critters2]

15. Trolls should stay under their bridges

and stop bothering people.

[undergroundpanther]

18. No I feel no regrets

I think you all have been snotty tho. I asked what you thought about the OP not as an attack but out of curiosity,I wanted a real discussion.. not this crap.I thought the similarities were striking to me that's all. And I didn't leave the thread,I am recovering from surgery so I get tired and konk out from the medicine suddenly,when I get that tired,I just have to stop what I am doing and go lay down when it hits. Throat surgery takes a bit out of your food intake ability too. So I am pretty weak from not eating..This is why I don't get to all the threads I put up or participate in everyday. My life is really tough in other ways right now so pardon moi for not being on top of things..as I normally would be.

Don't assume.

[Rabrrrrrr]

21. It's difficult to engage in a 'real discussion' when your first question

out of the chute was "Why are you such assholes?"

Maybe that's not what you're asking, but that sure is, in summarized and reduced-to-one-sentence form, how you asked it.

[undergroundpanther]

27. I didn't say that

Why are you assuming that is what I meant. I asked What do you all think of this? in the OP about the similarities of Christianity to Osirus.

There is nothing in that about you all being assholes..

[Rabrrrrrr]

32. In your OP, you asked, rather disingenuously, about similarities

Then, in your other posts, you use those "similarities" as the foundation/high horse from which to scream and fling feces at us for not defending our "pagan" sisters and brothers from our "fundamentalist" Christian sisters and brothers.

You need to decide whether you want a discussion about similarities between ancient religions; or if you want a discussion that is just you standing on a soapbox hurling invective and insult at innocent people.

And by the way, I have to say this: paganism is not a religion. There is no such thing as a pagan religion. Pagan means, merely, all those religions which are not one's own. There has never been, and never will be, any *one* religion that is called Pagan.

It always cracks me up when people say they practice the "pagan faith" or "pagan religion".

But, that aside said, you do need to choose, and let us know, precisely what kind of discussion you want. Your posts are all over the place, unfocused, and swing back forth with treacly suggestions that you just want to discuss similarities to outright obnoxious and unaccaptable accusations and insults.

So, no, nothing in your OP about assholes; but in fice or so of your other posts, yes, there is.

[okasha]

33. Pagan here.

While there is no one pagan faith or religion, there is a fairly large range of indigenous faiths that fall under that label. And "pagan" is in fact what we call ourselves. Now, maybe we shouldn't accept that label, since it's been bestowed on us by members of the Abrahamic faiths--but many of us have. It helps to emphasize what we have in common rather than our differences.

[undergroundpanther]

35. Agreed..

[undergroundpanther]

16. What this comes to is

Are christians individuals looking out for their own?Not in any way responsible for what other Christians do in the name of Christ?
Or are the looking out for others not like themselves also?
Sure you personally may not have caused any crap to anyone else ..yet other people who believe the same things,read the same book call on the same god have done horrid things.. How do you reconcile that? Arte you your brothers keeper or are you not,as Cain said when God Saw Abel's blood crying up from the ground??

Are you a bunch of individuals not the least bit responsible for those other christians when they get hateful,so it's ok to stand by? Is that why you say that?..when it's convienent..And when you feel threatened why are you suddenly a steel wall collective yelling don't insult my religion when it's convenient in maintaining the cultural hegemony of christianity?

This bothers me.

I see this alot in the world.Not necessarily you guys doing it ,but I see it nonetheless. I'm sincerely asking this stuff ,not trolling...
I want to know why.So I'm going to the horses moyuth so to speak.
Why listen to an athiest author he's not a believer..He may make very good arguments,but it's not a christian's POV.

I ask this stuff for a personal reasons too. I have been hurt by Christians.Repeatedly. Once for daring to trust,convert,.believe and get taken advantage of and my life left in shambles.


Why do christians and most monotheists when uninformed of the circumstances in a knee jerk way defend each other when they do wrong,but do not defend a person in an out-group when christians attack them as fervently? Alot of liberal christians for some reason I do not understand,don't take any strong stand against fundamentalists..Could the problem be the nature of the bible itself? The bible does contain some seriously unsavory things,(read the book of Joshua and tell me how good it is read Revelations and the 3/4 of the jews die and Jesus slays everything with a sword of his mouth and blood runs as deep as a horses bridle,and his prophets spreading disease.

Funny how alot of liberal christians gloss over that nightmare side of their god,while the fire and brimstone fundies they glorify it..I see now way out of this dual face of your god unless christian liberals do their own Nicea style editing job on the bible and cut out certain bigoted passages.Rome did it to foster the church state control,why can't liberals do it to take the evil out and correct the mistakes of Nicea? ?The bible may be the words of god to you but it had to go through a human brain and be penned by human hands and there can be twists of translation..so easily.

[Critters2]

19. From the intro to this group...

"The DU Christian Liberals/Progressive People of Faith Group is for Christians and Christian-friendly persons who would like to have an open discussion about our faith and its role in the world around us."

You're certainly not Christian, and I think it would be a real stretch to call you "Christian-friendly".

Please, go back to R/T.

[Rabrrrrrr]

20. So, by analogy, Israel is right in bombing the hell out of Lebanese

civilians, because it's the responsibility of non-Hezbollah to calm down Hezbollah, and since they haven't, they're fair game and equally guilty.

Nice reasoning!

Maybe I can hate all of Chicago because of a couple stupid people there.

So, here's the situation as I see it - you were attacked by Group A (fundy asshole hate-based Christians). So now, you go off and attack Group B (other Christians) because, I don't know, you don't feel like going after the people who actually caused you harm. You call Group B a bunch of stupid=heads for not keeping Group A under check, and then you tarnish and condemn the entirety of the religion out of which Groups A and B come. And then you condemn our god, our history, our scripture, and even the hermenuetic of Group B. And then you condemn Group B for not helping you, and you wonder why we don't.

Well, gee, I wonder.

:think:

If you think liberal Christians "gloss over that nightmare side of their god" then you don't what the hell you're talking about. I suggest you read Phyllis Tribble's "Texts of Terror" for an eye-opener on that one.

[Critters2]

23. Well, it turns out

S/He is here to chase the moneychangers out of the Temple. Since we're the ones here, I guess we're the moneychangers. Yet, the OP really loves us and our "spiritual religion".

Maybe the schools should require a course in logic somewhere along the way.


On edit...but I think you're right about the Chicago thing :)

[undergroundpanther]

26. No, that's not what I'm saying..

I am SAYING..What can we do,and christians do when a sick faction of Christianity threatens this country? You guys are Christians,

What do you do with this situation. Because I don't know what to do,it's scary .And I wonder why there is not more opposition more voices denoucing the theocrats who are Christians.I don't see too many liberal christians challenging the evangelicals with bullhorns on the street,maybe that could help after all this is where fundamentalists recruit people.But it's like it's not reaching out fast enough.I don't know why..So I am asking.Besides I'd like to know what to do to stop this christian theocracy looming..

[Critters2]

17. self-delete

[undergroundpanther]

22. I am Christian friendly

To friendly Christians. Yeah I get frustrated with the bigoted ones and vent about it colorfully too.I don't play nice with evil..I get frustrated when Christians stand by when one of their brethren(in religion only) does something horrific and the Church is quiet about it,it angers me.

Because that habit of by-standing and silence from the church authorities when I was being harmed, it has hurt me personally that's all. So I get really mad over this corrupt and perverted stuff betraying genuine seekers and vulnerable people looking for truth and spiritual guidance and rest and someone to trust... And my anger in this case is the equivalent of wanting to toss money changers out of the temple except they ain't money changers only who are causing all the problems if you get my drift.But the Authorities of the churches want to save their organizations and power base no matter if it hurts people or the ability to trust in the religion itself.

And I am not a believer in Christ as the bible declares him to be like anymore. I don't know what I believe,I know there is a profound mystery an unknown,it interacts with us,I call it sekhmet for personal reasons and as a label that does not have anything to do with Sekhmet other than it kinda looks like it,When Jesus went in my heart and he has he has come as a lion. For me God wears the face of a lion when it speaks to me.Jesus is the Lion of Judah.

So I don't know if it is Christ or not Or Sophia Barbelo or Sekhmet or what that speaks to me or even if it's an arrchetype or myy own thoughts..God is UNKNOWABLE..,but whatever it is it has shown and taught me alot and it has told me I am going to another place where I will be safe and happy after I die. I doubt this sometimes because of my doubting nature. But I also know I am in it's image, a spark, a cat shaped place in my heart,a spirit thing not like this world,.. it's there it controls and protects my heart.

My heart go out to the sincere spiritual Christians who are about to go nuts inside at what is happening to their churches with all these bad people,money shenanigans,all the crazy things going down, getting people hurt,the worldly invasion of the dominionists, so Because I am not christian the churches would not listen to my warnings anyway no more than you all are hearing me now.

I have discernment in my heart And I am scared for _all spiritual people_ regardless of their perspectives on god or the unknown or the afterlife.Atheists can be spiritual in their actions too.They have a spirit inside and it is good and it just refuses to idolize god or see it as god..A heart song is singing to the angels and manitou in unknown tongues.I have as a Christian noticed when I was tongue praying it was a heart song. Studying biblical passages for answers about all this craziness with the president and Hagee,Fallwell ect. and all it occurred to me.. The bible says, The Gates of hell can swing both ways there is an outside and an inside to a gate..right? After all it's a GATE,gates swing both ways,they are not like doors or a drawbridge..a gate can be barricaded shut to lock something in or locked on the inside to keep something out.. either way it's closed...

So a gate prevailing over the church,which way would the closing happen,than if the church becomes more worldly than this World? Would it be locked from the inside or barricaded from the outside? And thinking of the church,and the trouble it has now from people saying I'm not my brothers keeper, why care,why offend.. It leads me to ask which side of the fence is the side to be on? I don't know.But there are people who are angry and have been hurt and exploited by bad people using Christs name wishing the church would shut up and be gone.

When I look at the scandals in churches and my own experiences,I'm not sure what side is prevailing on what side where..And the implications can be frightening for Christians and for humanity whatever the outcome is.This is what scares me. I wanted to bring this up with Christians,I already know what atheists,pagans etc. think on all this stuff . I want to hear it from Christians this time.I brought up the OP because I wanted to talk comparative Theology and get YOUR insights.

I have Christian Friends they understand me they are fascinated to discuss theology with me because I realize scripture has layers upon layers of meanings in it like Native American stories do,or any other profound scriptures do. Yes they are not all the same,but they say some truth..that is the nature of spiritual wisdom you know,and discernment is the way to see it clearly and the dead letters are not of spirit..There Are Christians who worship the dead letters and the law.

I am not hostile to Christians who want to inquire and wrestle with stuff with me. Sure I am not Christian anymore but I still carry parts of it inside me,wisdom Learned.. I have studied Christianity quite a bit,and Gnostic theology ,Pagan and other faiths too .I am even an ex Satanist...I have sought spirituality long and hard and been on alot of paths seeking. Each one had it's core message and meanings and good and bad people in it.

Right now Christianity may be digging it's own grave as many people are jaded and people are leaving.. For the fundamentalists get way more notice than liberal churches . The Fundamentalists do not heed Jesus spirit messages inside the words and so they seek to rule the kingdoms of the Earth. They are doing what Jesus told Satan in the desert he did not want.TO rule the kingdoms of the Earth. and what jesus told Pilate was he did not rule over a Earthly kingdom,He was not King of the Jews.for his kingdom is NOT of this world.

This twisting of scriptures I fear is something churches are not seeing clear enough...Dare I say it, Satan in the form of bible literalism,Fundamentalism ,Legalism,,Darby's Rapture theories and the desire of these Satanic Christians to make America a theocratic state,the Gates of hell are prevailing against the Church.

And it is up to you SPIRITUAL liberal Christians to go in there,stand up,speak out,get angry fight against this'culture' war, and get the Devil out of christianity and silence the rapture freaks and dominionists, and theocratic control freaks ,battle them and save your spiritual religion from the religious corruption making it unbearable to the gentle spiritual seekers looking for rest,loving support,acceptance and hope they can't find elsewhere.

That is part of the reason for my post,this is what I was going to lead into from the OP.. A hope for Spirit to descend.

[Critters2]

24. Really, go back to R/T

They'll love you there.

And don't tell me what I should do in response to fundies. I've been neck-deep in the "culture war" for 20 years. Who are you to come here and tell me how to live my faith?

Did I mention that I think you should go back to R/T?

[undergroundpanther]

25. Ok..

I ain't telling you how to live your faith. I am saying how*I*feel.About things I see and about events going on ..What I was curious about was your perspectives and I wondered what your thoughts on things might be. I am asking WHAT DO YOU THINK about the topics I brought up? Do you have any thoughts at all,or do you just want to assume things about me,I am not intending?

You wanna chase me out? I won't be bullied. I will go when I choose to.I meant no harm asking my questions but you INSIST I do mean harm. Why?


Do you have any thoughts about how religion,mostly the big major ones because they have the most people in them,are being corrupted and the messages twisted by manipulative power hungry people? Doesen't that bother you? It bothers me.It's sad to think seeking people get hurt for trying to seek.

But that's just me.
.

[undergroundpanther]

28. What is R/T?

And you say you are neck deep in the culture war.. tell me,you got any tactics to share I could use to help me fight it too?

[Critters2]

29. The religion and theology group, here...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=214

You can claim Christians just stole Osiris over there to your little heart's delight!

Enjoy!

[okasha]

30. You've posted in R/T plenty of times, undergroundpanther.

Cut the disingenuous act.

As for the similarities between Osiris and Jesus--which are not nearly as close as you seem to think they are, unless you can come up with a twin sister for Jesus who was also his wife, and a nasty, red-haired brother--can you say "archetype?"

[undergroundpanther]

36. No..

I really didn't know what R/T meant in an Acronym.When you spelled it out,I realized what happened.
Now that I know,I'll redo my stuff over there..I thought this was there.

[Critters2]

31. A simple search shows that you not only know what R/T is

You post there with some frequency. I only have one person in my ignore list, and he just got banned. So, you may be lonely there. Not my problem...*ignore*

[okasha]

34. I'm not a Christian,

but I think this is a disgustingly racist site. Did you just put up the link or did you actually read it? Like the part about the "light-skinned Aryan Sumerians" invading Egypt and teaching the little dark people not to be cannibals? Yech.

[undergroundpanther]

37. I didn't focus on the racism

I focused more on the similarities between Osirus and Christianity I saw there.I thought it was interesting.

Sometimes I don't see things the same way others do,my focus gets limited,So I don't notice things like the racism you said you saw on the site because I was focusing more on other things the site was saying ,like the the myths and such.
Every website I have ever been to has a bias ,one way or another it will have one. Some have disgusting biases but also interesting info. I have never found a site I totally agree with,there is always something off or questionable about everything..So I try to pick what seems spiritual out of it and toss the rest of the crap away.. Crap that every website mixes in with the other stuff that caught my interest...

[StoryTeller]

38. A different perspective...

To my Christian friends here: I know I don't post often, and I'm a relative newcomer, but as a fellow follower of Jesus, can I just gently remind you that no person who posts here is our enemy? I know our forum has rules about what can or cannot be posted here, and if the OP violated that, then lets address it. But it makes me sad to read words that are so unlike the words of the God we claim to worship.

To Undergroundpanther: I am writing with the assumption that you are being truthful when you said you meant no offense. I don't know you, and I haven't read any of your other posts (to my knowledge). I believe you when you say you've been hurt by the church. I have, too. There's nothing quite as painful as the wounds Christians inflict on each other. I've learned the way to healing is through the often difficult, long, and painful path of forgiveness. And that it's a path I couldn't have traveled without the support and guidance and love of Jesus Christ.

That said, I wanted to try to give you an honest response to the site you referenced in your OP. In later posts you brought up a lot of other issues, but I'm just going to focus on this one.

I admit that the similarities between ancient religions and the Hebrew faith is incredibly fascinating. Did you realize that those type of similarities exist in almost every culture and religion on earth? Many religions have a flood narrative. Many have creation stories that find echoes in the Genesis account. There are stories of gods who become human, of gods who sacrifice themselves, gods who are resurrected. Christian missionaries tell stories of traveling to remote villages of China only to encounter people who have been waiting for years for "people of the book" to come tell them about God, because of a prophecy from one of their own that was given ages ago. When Christianity came to the Celtic lands of Wales, Ireland, and Scotland, the missionaries found things in those religions that mirrored Christian stories, concepts, and even prophecies. So reading about these sort of similarities in ancient Egyptian religion doesn't surprise me in the least.

You can take this one of two ways--you can say "Well, this just means that all religions really are the same. They're just made up from longings and desires that are common to all humanity." Or you can say, "This points to the possibility that these events and concepts and prophecies all derived from a common source, that they are echoes of a folk memory that extends beyond any surviving scriptures or written documents."

I lean toward the second view. I know that there is a very long gap between when, for example, the Genesis "Primeval Prologue" events (ch. 1-13) are supposed to have happened and when they were written down. But supposing that these events did occur in some form or another--the ancient Hebrews would have not been the only culture to have surviving accounts of such a thing.

And when you study the ancient Near East culture, you find that our Bible is definitely a document of its time. The creation account is similar to other ancient Near-East creation stories. The Covenant God makes with Abraham and later with Moses and the nation of Israel are modeled almost point-for-point off of a type of treaty called a Suzerain-Vassal Treaty that was common in that time period.

You also should recall that the Hebrew people spent about 450 years in Egypt, first as guests and then eventually as slaves. The phrases and language of the Egyptian religion would have been quite familiar to the Israelite people, and the fact that some of those phrases and ideas find their way into the psalms and imagery of the Bible shouldn't come as a great surprise.

I believe in a God who has placed "sign posts" in every culture and religion that point toward Himself. The great message of the Bible is that there is a God, and that He made humanity for the purpose of being in relationship with each other and with Him. And that when humans turned away from that relationship, that He literally and truly "moved heaven and earth" to provide a way for us to come back to Him.

A God that has this much stubborn, unyielding love for His creation is not going to limit Himself to speaking just through one people-group or nation. He would leave "fingerprints" anywhere possible in order to say, "Hey! Look! It's Me--I'm here. This is what I'm like! This is who I am!"

So if that means speaking through an Egyptian myth, I think He would do it. If it means leaving hints and clues in religions that otherwise don't acknowledge Him in the full truth of who He is, I think He goes for it. God is ALWAYS speaking--to all people, in all times. It's just that most of the time, we are not listening. And when He uses something in a different religion to reveal Himself, He usually provides some way of showing how that motif is and IS NOT reflective of the truth about who He is. Often, those motifs get turned upside down or inside out when His truth gets hold of them. The reason is that we humans are pretty well screwed up. So even though we often have a piece of truth, it gets distorted because of our own imperfections and limited understanding of Him.

Now, I am NOT saying I believe that all religions point to God in full truth. I don't believe that. It doesn't make logical sense to me to say that God=Osirus when there are painfully obvious ways they contradict each other. Things that contrary to each other can't both be reflective of the SAME God.

But I do believe the Bible when it says that God is truth and God is love. When I find things that are true and lovely, I believe they belong to God. I believe that there is a lot of truth that was probably originally clear and undistorted in many cultures, but that became marred and twisted because we humans have our own agendas and have not always sought God over and above our own desires.

So, do I think it's possible that God left in Egyptian myths a foreshadowing of Jesus' sacrifice? Absolutely. Do I think that the stories about Jesus are nothing more than reconstituted ancient mythology? Absolutely not. The Jesus I know and worship, who has changed my life and brought me peace and the ability to forgive those who have hurt me, and love those who are unloving-- He's for real. And He is radically different from the description I read of Osiris.

I could provide a point by point comparison of how Jesus is different from Osiris, but my post is already getting too long. But I would think it would make for some great posts by other people, too. The main differences that I think are worth mentioning is that the God of the Bible is NOT gendered. We have historically used masculine language for God, for a variety of cultural reasons, but by His own statements, He is not "male." Another important distinction is that when we put our faith in God, we have no more need of talismans and amulets, or superstition or elaborate rituals designed to "appease" any deity. I KNOW Christians have been guilty of holding onto such superstitious customs, but that's actually against what the Bible itself teaches.

The biggest difference, though, between the teachings of Christianity and any other religion that I know of, including what I read of the Osiris cult, is that we believe in a God that LOVES humanity as His own children. That doesn't require elaborate initiation rituals or constant pacification to find us acceptable. This isn't a faith that says "get pure before you come see Me"--it's a faith that says that "seeing Me will make you pure." And the more I learn of other world religions, of past or present, the more I see that this is the defining difference. To me, this is what convinces me that my faith is not of human origin. When a human being creates religious expression, it invariably becomes a matter of rules, rituals, and our own efforts to please the god we worship or to purify and improve ourselves. Even Christians tend to inject this tendency into our own faith, though this faith--out of all the rest in the world--teaches this is exactly what God doesn't demand.

I hope this is the sort of honest dialogue you appeared to be asking for, Undergroundpanther. Let me know what you think.

[Jo March]

39. Beautiful post - much appreciated

The OP has posted things in the past that has bascially set many of us on edge, to say the least.

I believe that coming to this Group is not the place to discuss what the OP wants to discuss. If you read the original post on this thread, you can pick up the underlying hostility and frustration. Am I saying that it's not warranted or justified? No but the posters in this Group did not deserve any of that anger and hostility.

I have taken discussions of my faith off the board with people and I'm sure that many others have to. We'd be more than happy to do that if anyone asks. Coming here and bashing us for not preventing bigotry and violence - that's a bit of a stretch.

Having said that, I'm glad that you responded. Your post is thoughtful and well-thought out and well written.

I hope that you post more.

Arnie