How do you guys deal with the anti-Christian bullshit on DU?

[Critters2]

There's a thread in GD identifying the Phelps crazies with Christians in general, just for the purpose of attacking Christians. I sometimes think of just leaving DU because of this crap.

I also worry about this shit reflecting on the party. It supports the "Dems are anti-religion" stuff, and that costs us elections. Worries me a lot.

Your thoughts?

[RevCheesehead]

1. My first response is usually something like this:

Honestly, I stay away from it. There are some people who simply will not be persuaded, because their own pain is way too deep. It's up to them as to how long they want to be living it hate.

And some are just assholes who want to argue, and take delight in creating flame-wars. Why their threads are tolerated is beyond me. :shrug:

Oh - and -
just TRY posting anything, anything at ALL about atheists, and just watch.

[nosillies]

2. Pardon my language, but I almost f**king lost it today.

These were some of my thoughts (a couple of which the good Reverend Cheesehead has already expressed):

Can you imagine how the shit would hit the fan if almost every thread in this forum was yet another non-Christian-bashing thread?

Is it not a fairly well-accepted theory that those who feel the need to constantly bash/make fun of/generally insult someone who is different or who has different beliefs must have pretty deep insecurity issues?

How do these bashers reconcile their refusal to respect those with different beliefs with their so-called "progressive" or "liberal" views?

Who would you rather spend time with -- people who like to belittle and ridicule others, or people with a gentle, loving nature who like open and rational discourse?

How can we square "Hey we'd like more people in the Democratic party, want to come join us?" with "Oh by the way, I think you're a complete dipshit and I reserve the right to make fun of you if you do join?"

Most Christians are not fundie nutcases, just as most atheists are not losers who have nothing better to do than post juvenile insults on message boards. Most of us live simply without proselytizing -- we're just trying to live a good life so that when others ask "how do you do it?' we're able to share a little bit about the big guy who helps us along.

Do they hate all religious people? Or is it just Christians? more specifically, is it just American Christians? For some reason, I get the feeling that they don't have the same hatred toward Buddhists or maybe Iraqi Christians, for example.


And I'm still confused as to why it's OK to make fun of Christians for not believing in science (e.g. evolution, etc.) yet it's perfectly OK to completely reject science when it comes to things like the benefits of some vaccines, the dangers of eating raw meat, the healing powers of crystals, I could go on. You either believe in science or you don't -- pick one, for f**k's sake. (And for the record, I'm all about science. I just happen to believe that God's had a hand in things for billions of years or so. I don't take the seven day timeline at face value.)

And if you're so much better/smarter than me just because I believe in a higher power, whatever -- I'd rather be inferior than be a closed-minded asshole any day. (And another thing for the record -- you're probably not smarter than me, because most people aren't. I'm just sparing you the full fury of my powers.)

I posted one reply today to an obvious flame-bait. I just wanted to ask why people had to be divisive at a time when we really all needed to be more understanding. Of course I got immediately slammed for being an idiot for even thinking that any religious person was worthy of understanding. My simple reply was "You're too mature and smart for me, I give up." I'm all about turning the other cheek and everything :smile:

Plus, I got time for lots of stuff, but I ain't never got time for stoopid.

:rant:

Anyway, thank you for listening. I just read it over and over almost every day, and for the most part it doesn't bother me. I have always been super-secure in my beliefs and in who I am. But sometimes I feel like a good bitch fest. This was one of those times. I hope what I wrote made any sense -- I've been writing all day and it's one of those burn out times!

[okasha]

3. What strikes me about many of these posters

is that (a) they really don't understand how people react to their comments, which pretty much puts them on the level of the 40-year-olds living in their mothers' basements with only a couple of earwigs for company (or the lonely equivalent; imagine how desperate for approval you'd have to be to "convert" to anything in response to peer pressure on a message board); or (b)they're sick f***s with dominance issues who get off on verbally abusing people they know won't repsond in kind; or (c) they're college sophomores in awe of their own vast intellect and wisdom.

With luck, (c) is curable.

[RevCheesehead]

4. Nobody's replied to my post yet.

I wonder why.

:evilgrin:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=679290&mesg_id=682146

[Critters2]

5. I noticed that. I really expected you to get a bunch of emotional flames

but nothing. Even more interesting.

[RevCheesehead]

7. It's hard to eat your own words.

Take it from an expert. ;)

[nosillies]

9. I've found that sauteing them with a little butter, white wine and capers helps them go down well.

But it has to be real butter, not margarine or any of that diet stuff.

ANYWAY, enough of my silliness -- if no one responds to your posts, it's because they're so brilliant that you've had the final, ultimate say, and everyone knows they can't top it.

Or at least that's what I tell myself when I'm feeling lonely. I have a feeling in your case, it's true!

[Critters2]

6. Well said. You rant beautifully. Thank you. nt

[murielm99]

8. I thought we could get banned

for complaining about that here.

I just ignore all that stuff.

Please don't leave DU. We need you here.

[TreasonousBastard]

10. Well, it used to bother me, and...

we had a lot of discussions about this when I was a mod-- at one point it got so bad we banned a bunch of the worst offenders.

But, now I guess I'm just kind of tired of letting it bother me. Been on too many usenet froups and discussion boards where anonymity and the lack of threat of bodily harm lets the kids say the darndest things. And, I am convinced that a lot of the animosity toward religion here, and particularly toward Christianity, is because this is a "safe" place for many to vent. I couldn't imagine living in FundyLand myself, and have to sympathize with non-believers stuck there who have to live with some of that crap.

No, that doesn't excuse what could simply be called very bad manners, but it doesn't call for a crusade against them or any of us leaving, either. FWIW, I was listening earlier to a woman who is one of three paid moderatators (and there are a dozen volunteer moderators) on a FOOD site and she can't believe all the flamewars there. So, I gues a few nasty comments from the jerk contingent of the resident atheists here isn't all that bad in the grand scheme of things.

If I do ever answer them, or any of the other opinions I consider ridiculous, it's not to convince them of the error of their ways, it's simply to not allow such opinions to sit unchallenged and let the lurkers know the place is not populated entirely by arrogant assholes.

[supernova]

11. That's one of my great challenges

being at DU.

I've known plenty of people offline who were non-religious, or just not that into it at all. But we certainly had a live and let live attitude about it. This is the first time I've run into the "I really, really, really, REALLY hate religious people!" meme. Frankly that boggles my mind, because I don't hate anybody, most especially because of a specific philosophical bent. :shrug:

But I can certainly see that they feel this is one of the very few places to vent that they have. I had a very hard time convincing the R/T Forum for instance, that eventhough I live in the South, I don't know ANY fundamentalists. So there are shades of meaning that are lost there. I think TB is right in that some are too wrapped up in their own pain.

I just gave up trying to talk about it and create positive dialog at this time. Perhaps at some point in the future I will try again.

It's really a shame because we have much larger common goals that we need to be talking about and planning for:

- how do we create a society where everyone is accepted and appreciated for who they are, not for the degree to which they don the templates family and society want to overlay on top of them?
- How do we create a gov't that is more responsive to us?
- How do you get more nonvoters involved in the political process?
- etc., etc.

[Fran Kubelik]

12. First my blood pressure goes through the roof...

Then I have to breathe, and I try to understand where the hatred is coming from. Many of these people carrying those tremendous grudges probably have some trauma in their past that causes them to feel the way they do.

Then later, in my car, I start getting mad again. :) I just cannot figure out the right perspective on this. On one hand, everyone tells us to keep our religion to ourselves. On the other hand, they tell us that the non-fanatical Christians should be more vocal to show the world that it is not just the asshole fundies who represent us. So which is it? Put up and shut up or speak out??

[butterfly77]

13. My take on it is that ...

some on here jump to conclusions about a post when they don't know what they are talking about. There are also a lot of people who hate it if you express your faith or anything about God, some are also quick to call someone a bigot or a racist before they get a full understanding of the post.

[CBHagman]

14. Mostly I cut back on participation in GD, LBN, etc.

People who have to force their atheism/agnosticism are really not at all removed from people who adopt a hard-sell approach concerning their faith. I suspect it's a question of maturity.

The thing that really bothers me, though, is the stereotyping and general lack of nuance, as well as the One Person Purity Party Syndrome, a version of Naderism (i.e., if you don't agree with me entirely, I'll pick up my toys and go home). I thought we Democrats were seriously into nuance, compromise, and openness. You win elections and then make policy based on your ability to build alliances and entertain solutions, not declaring yourself too perfect to condescend to deal with THOSE PEOPLE.

On edit: Yeah, a lot of that sounds terribly judgmental anyway. But I do think people are letting their anger and fear and perhaps lack of knowledge get the best of them, which is making us the Left-Wing Free Republic, and who wants to be that?

[hippywife]

15. Left-wing Free Republic.

Those are words that I can relate to as I have often felt that this board is just the mirror of that one sometimes. They make up stupid names for Dems, the folks here make up stupid names for Reps. It really is childish.

I have stayed away from even reading the discussions about religion on the board in general. I am seriously trying to pursue a path of nonviolence as taught by Gandhi and furthered by people like Fr. John Dear and MLK, Jr. What I have found in this pursuit is that I have to find peace and an attitude of nonviolence within myself first, or I can't project that attitude to others in the world.

So right now, until I fully establish that within myself, I'm not allowing myself to get drawn into religious arguments here or anywhere else. I'm getting there, though.

I don't have time to nurture hate for anyone, not even those that hate. I just find the whole thing very sad and defeating towards the cause of peace.

[CBHagman]

24. That's a key approach.

I was struck by this statement from your post:

I don't have time to nurture hate for anyone, not even those that hate.

It does take time and energy to foment hate, within another person or within oneself, and everyone loses. The path of empathy and action are preferable.

But it takes a brave and disciplined person to commit to a path of nonviolence, and I applaud you for that.

[democrat2thecore]

29. I know this post is 5 months old - but you said it SO WELL!

Especially the suspicion that it's a question of maturity (or lack thereof) and that there are sooo many at DU who expect others to agree with them on EVERYTHING, and if they don't....well....it's a black & white world for them. Very common with what you see on the Trotskyist left. DU, I am afraid, is infiltrated with some of these people and the whole point is to make it a fractious place. Of course, it doesn't take long before an issue comes along that breaks them up into splinters and because of this, there are hundreds of tiny Trotskyist groups (all who hate each other) rather than one, two, three larger groups. They are all angry and searching for something that NOTHING will ever give them.

Anyway, the way it is all displayed when matters of faith come into play was very well-said in your post. Thanks for saying it so well!

[Dragonbreathp9d]

16. I find that it probably has to do with the religious right treating them like shit-

so when they find a place where they are not in an extreme minority they feel they can let everything pent up come out. They probably just havent met many Christians like us - who are accepting and compassionate no matter what they believe.

[Dinger]

17. Me, I Just Feel Sort Of "Silenced," But I Also Believe That The "Christians" They

are referring to are not real Christians at all. In my responses to the anit-Christian BS, I try to point that out.

[FreeState]

18. Try being Momron!

Try being Momron! The bigotry about Mormonism here is astounding. I use the alert button but apparently the Mods do not care if its Mormon bigotry. I have even emailed the site admin to ask for some help with it and so far have not got a response.

[54anickel]

19. Well, there are a few "shitheads" at DU. I suppose being a "Momron" you're

getting it from all sides, especially with that documentary that recently came out. As far as the mods not reacting to an alert, it depends on which forum it was in and if it was a "personal" attack vs an attack on Mormonism. The bigotry is probably partially a knee-jerk response to cover an ignorance about Mormonism (could explain the mods lack of response as well). Wait until you run into someone who has "studied" it to death and is now an "expert" not only on the topic but also what the only "reasonable, logical" response could be. Then you'll experience some of the finest shear bullshitting "assholiness".

Hang in there, DU isn't really as bad as it can sometimes feel. But you probably already know that. Here, have a :hug:

[FreeState]

20. Thanks:)

Yeah I know what you mean. Actually there was a very bad thread earlier that I sent a ton of alerts on and finally it got locked (the attacks were sexual in nature and broad generalizations of every member - I don't have a problem with some one saying "I don't believe in this doctrine etc" - only when they misrepresent the doctrine in an effort to defame every member). So Im guessing the Mods get overwhelmed at times and also have to make personal judgments and I respect that. The weird thing is I consider myself a cultural mormon - Im not a believer in the doctrines, however it irks me to high heaven to see people state the same old lies and stereotypes over and over again when I know its not true. But, I hope I would do the same for any faith, no matter what I personally believe, or at least I try too.

I know exactly what you are saying about the "experts" who have studied it or even sometimes were members, or in this case lived in Utah. There are a couple here I have gone the rounds with over the doctrine and its just shocking to see how they will insist they know the truth even when you point out their errors and then they change the subject. I guess I reply to them because I would hope progressive persons would be a little more open minded and learn from each other, when in fact many come across as just bashing faith because it hurt them somehow or the church is conservative and somehow that makes it automatically enemy #1.

I try to remember that when someone keeps attacking with out listening to try and see it from the posters angle as well. Many times a poster has been hurt, directly or indirectly, by members of the faith or even leaders, and I have to remind myself their pain and anger is real - while its not an excuses for bigotry or exaggeration or twisting of doctrines, sometimes thats where the poster is at in their recovery from their bad experience. If that makes sense without broadly stereotyping those that appear to have been hurt by religion.

[shrike]

21. Some good thoughts on this thread

I stay out of R & T for that reason. And never click on religious threads. There are enough important things to get pissed off about in the real world.

In my real life I rarely have any conflict at all with non-believers, and being that the local progressive group is almost entirely non-religious, I meet a lot of them. Only one of them ever started off on Christianity with me, and after I gave her a little history lesson she backed off. (For example, the Romans and Greeks, who were non-Christian were also very accepting of homosexual activity, she said. Ergo, Christianity, which historically has not been, is responsible for all the homophobia in the world. I pointed out to her that the Greek and Roman culture also felt that women were not equals, and therefore were not capable of an equal relationship with men, so maybe we didn't want to emulate the Greeks and Romans after all.)

On DU it's different, but I hadn't thought about the fact that it may be a safe place for them to vent. So I will try to be more patient with them from now on. Also, there's something about the Internet that brings out the worst in some people.

[Critters2]

22. Good thoughts, all. Thanks. nt

[Irishonly]

23. Sometimes It's Hard

Liberal and moderate Christians get very little media attention and I think that's why we get clumped together. I usually try to remain calm but in my mind I am grumping about stereotyping.

My unofficial second daughter was a foreign exchange student in New Zealand. I have know her since her birth and she is like part of the family. I had given her a cross and a weird t-shirt as going away presents. She told me she got very tired of explaining that she was not a Christian like Bush.

Christianity is a huge tent. Because of the president we are stuck with, everybody listens to the neoconservatives. I hesitate using evangelical because not all evangelicals are Bushbots.

The only thing you can do is to take a deep breath. Some people will listen to the differences. Others will not. It didn't help anything with the museum opening that says dinosaurs were on the ark.:banghead:

[CBHagman]

25. Unfortunately, it also happens in the Lounge.

Generally the Lounge has at least something to interest a DUer in for a little stress-busting posting - movie threads, nostalgia, appeals for advice and support, etc. But some of the garden-variety nastiness works its way into that board as well, and even sometimes into personal interest/issue boards.

[nosillies]

26. Here's a lovely one I just stumbled upon...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x135077

I won't even go there. Since it's Sunday and I got a little Jesus in me this morning I think I have the strength to ignore this one.

[leftyladyfrommo]

27. I'm a Christian and I'm a Mystic so I am really a wierdo. But

I just don't pay much attention.

Living in the middle of the Bible Belt is kind of living with the opposite extreme but its the same ole, same ole.

I just really believe that each individual is an ancient soul on it's own individual path to wherever they need to be going. And they will get there in their own way and in their own time.

I live completely surrounded by Bible Believing Fundamentalists - and I get along with them just fine. I don't believe what they believe. But I respectful of their right to believe it.

And being a mystic and a Christian I don't ever talk about what I believe. It would make them completely crazy. And I just don't have the energy anymore to engage in a pointless argument.

Some of those fundamentalists are really nice people that I like a lot. Some are not. I really try to just take them individually and give them all the room they need. For some reason they need that kind of religion and I try to be respectful of that.

[theredpen]

28. Indeed

I think the OP was talking about Christian bashing from... Christian bashers, and not fundies. I know what you mean, living in Dallas, Texas, myself. Unlike you, I don't respect the "Bible Believing Fundamentalists" but like you, I don't waste my time trying to talk them out of their literalist interpretations.