I just don't know anymore.

[RevCheesehead]

I knew when I heard Falwell was "gravely ill" that he probably was already dead. Probably found dead. And I will confess, I had, for a brief moment, a sense of relief and satisfaction.

Then I thought of DU, and intentionally stayed away for a couple of hours. I hated the way people reacted when Reggie White died, and of course, the Pope - but I knew this would be much, much worse.

But here's the rub: I couldn't stay in that place. I knew it would poison me. I decided to hand over any judgment to God, and left it for good. But I'm really having trouble with the unrestrained glee.


My friends: I really would like to hear your honest reactions.

[supernova]

1. Gnashing of teeth

in the Supernova household.

No, not because I thought he was such a great guy, but the opposite. I absolutely hated what he did to pollute our politics; and part of me wanted him the live long enough to see the hatred he had engendered and the hurt he had caused. Perhaps that was too much to hope for.

I'm not sorry he's gone, but I won't dance on his grave either.

[RevCheesehead]

5. My first thought was,

at least now he understands how hateful he was. Kind of the mirror darkly/ face-to-face thing.

I wonder if Jesus asked him "what part of 'love' didn't you understand?"

[54anickel]

2. Well. I did find one quote of his I could pretty much agree with.

"I do believe, as a theologian, based upon many Scriptures and particularly Proverbs 14:23, which says 'living by God's principles promotes a nation to greatness, violating those principles brings a nation to shame."

It's the definition of "God's principles" that become the sticking point.

[RevCheesehead]

6. Good observation.

I kept hoping that he'd turn away from the dark side. Maybe now, there's still hope. (in Wesleyan theology, it's possible for God's grace to work even after death.)

[Critters2]

3. I had an interesting feeling when I heard he was dead

Not glee, but more a kind of relief. A hope that this may be the beginning of the end of his kind of hateful Christian politics. That maybe others will move into leadership of that kind of church, who will be less intolerant.

I don't see death as a punishment, or bad in anyway, so I don't see his passing as something he "deserved". It's just the end of his earthly life, and I'm unsure of what happens after that (though I think something happens).

So, the question for me is "what happens now?" And I hope the answer is that we are moving past his kind of politics.

But yes, the glee in GD and other places is just unseemly. Not surprising, but unpleasant.

[Rabrrrrrr]

4. I'm with you - as I said in the Lounge, not so much glee that he's dead,

but elation that he's no longer living.

And I think there is a serious semantic - and moral - difference there.

I, too, felt that sense of relief. The beginning of the end, I hope, of these pieces of shit, these theological equivalents of gleefully shitting in your own bed.

And as I also said in the Lounge, I hope Jesus gave one hell of a dressing down before letting him into heaven; and the kind of dressing down without a lot of words, just maybe "Jerry.... (sigh, shake head)... I wish you hadn't done that."

[RevCheesehead]

8. I'm so glad Jesus is a better person than me.

He is infinitely loving, especially with the emotionally slow learners. Case in point: he knew what Judas was up to, but let him stay anyways.

Grace still is available to everyone. Amazing, isn't it?

[Serial Mom]

17. My one little thought...

Jesus HAD to let Judas stay otherwise the prophecy wouldn't have been fulfilled.

And on Falwell... well, I won't judge if he truly had faith or was just reaping the profits of faith. I don't know and it is not up to me.

[RevCheesehead]

7. You summed that up well.

And like most movements, when the leader/founder dies, the organization is never quite what it once was.

[Kat45]

9. I had the same reaction that you did, Rev.

And I'm also having a problem with my reaction. I couldn't help smiling and saying, "good." Then I immediately felt very badly saying/thinking that and I apologized to God for it. I also avoided DU because I knew the reaction and comments that would be going on, and I knew I couldn't handle it. Thank you for posting this; it makes me feel better to see that someone I respect as a spiritual person is wrestling with similar feelings.

[RevCheesehead]

10. Thank you.

I also could not "celebrate" the execution of Saddam Hussein... and I cringed when Kerry said about OBL that "we will hunt him down, and kill him."

I guess, for me, the ultimate question was do I really, truly believe that God's grace is available to all? Or just the "good" people? If so, then Jesus died in vain.

Thanks for your kind comments.

[kwassa]

11. I thought "end of an era", though maybe not ...

I was thinking more about Falwell in the historical sense, since he gave up being point man on the religious right a long time ago. I heard an excellent NPR story this morning that reminded me of his importance politically; he basically invented the religious right as a political force to be reckoned with. That power is still around, though much seems to have waned with the political misfortunes and ineptitude of the Bush administration and conservatives in general. This waning could be quite temporary. It seems all of a piece with the Gonzalez and Wolfowitz scandals, and the swing of a very large pendulum.

I only hope we, as Democrats, can keep the momentum going towards a more progressive future for this country. We need to offer better.

I was initially happy when I heard that he died. I'll admit it. I also knew GD would go beserk, and that the infantile behavior would appear, but that is a part of the Internet discussion forums, always a place of rectitude and moderation. I indulged in a little happy dance myself, tasteless as it was.

I think Falwell misunderstood, misinterpreted, and misused Christianity. Not the first time, and it won't be the last.

[nosillies]

12. My friend was on the computer and shouted the news to me across the hall

And I will admit that "good" popped out of my mouth before I could even think. I immediately felt so guilty and I popped myself on the hand. And I've actually been feeling guilty about it here and there since.

And therein lies the difference between Jerry and me. When I do something nasty I feel bad about it.

[TreasonousBastard]

13. My reaction was the same as yours, and...

my first thought was "good riddance." But, I agree that we can't stay in that place-- it is far too corrupting.

I was busy and not online all day, but I assumed that there would be vast amounts of grave dancing going on around here and other "liberal" forums, and apparently I was right. Far too many people just couldn't contain themselves and once again the unseemly spectacle of a death being the bright spot of their day.

Knowing what would be going on, I fleetingly thought of just posting "Dead guy here-- have some respect" but when I got back online I ended up just ignoring all of it.

Time is becoming more precious as I get older, and I see little profit in using it participating in this sort of rudeness that will never go away.

[RevCheesehead]

14. Hmmm.... your response got me thinking.

Do you think it possible that some people don't know what else to do?

Is it possible that their entire life has been dedicated to hating the people who've hated them? It's so easy to slip into a triangulation of being a perpetual victim. (Look, I know I'm treading on dangerous ground here, but I think this is important.) This in NO WAY takes away the real pain that people have suffered. But if you've only been reactionary, rather than proactive, how do you move on, other than to gleefully celebrate the death of the persecutor?

I've seen this played out when a murder victim's family demands an execution of the person responsible. When interviewed, they often say "he might be dead, but he didn't suffer enough." As time passes, they begin to realize that the hatred they've been carrying around simply will not allow them to move on, yet they insist on keeping that hatred with them.

I dunno - maybe this will all blow over in a few days. I think it will, for most people. At least, I hope so.

[TreasonousBastard]

16. It will blow over, just as the gavedancing over Reagan's...

death did.

But, there is some mechanism I don't fully understand working here. There are persecutors and criminals and real enemies, and there are those we don't actually invent but blow up to much greater proportion.

Few who have suffered death and destruction seem to genuinely enjoy the death or other punishment of their tormentors, and they find an empty place where they thought they would find a sort of closure. The glee in seeing "justice" done is often from the periphery who have only an interest in the proceedings, but nothing really at stake. I, too, have seen this with executions, and the execution of a murderer is rarely satisfying to the friends and family of his victims.

We can look at concentration camp survivors, families of murder victims, and many others for insighty, but perhaps most tellingly it was the Republican debate where the only one on the dais who had suffered torture was the one who was most adamantly against it and who harbored less of a vicarious hatred toward "enemies" than most of the others.

Looking around the world at other attitudes, some places greet the death of an enemy with greater fanfare and others with much less, so there doesn't seem to be any natural tendency toward this sort of thing. In this country, it may be our insistance on finding someone to blame for all our ills thaqt comes into play.

Whatever it is, though, it is unseemly at best. Life is to be celebrated, not death.

[JVS]

15. The more people make a deal, the bigger they make his legacy

[shimmergal]

18. I didn't feel either glee or relief, just

a sort of "Oh. Well, death comes to everyone" reaction.

But some of that was because 1) he'd already, some time ago, done the damage we deplore, and wasn't adding much to it, and 2) then I started thinking, "But there are some people whose deaths might really make a change for the better in the world."

And of course, this last is not for us to determine, but it does make me question divine wisdom sometimes.

[leftyladyfrommo]

19. I just don't worry about that kind of stuff.

There was a purpose to his life.

There is a purpose to every life. I just tend to look at it and let it be. I'm certainly in no position to judge anyone or their life. Who knows what the long term effects of that life will be. Those little ripples that go on forever.

He obviously affected a lot of people - but certainly not all in the same way. There ws a reason he was here.