Why are mainline Protestant denominations losing members?

[Celeborn Skywalker]

I just finished reading an article where it states that membership in the traditional, mainline denominations has seen significant decline since the 1970's. The article also stated that membership is down in the Catholic Church.

Why is this? Is it because of the evangelical megachurches? If this is the reason, why are these fundamentalist churches so attractive to people? Or is it some other reason? In my opinion, the traditional denominations are the among the last holdouts of reasonable, thoughtful, Christianity in this country and it is a shame they are losing so many members.

[supernova]

1. Good Question. My theory is

two-fold.

1) Christians are becoming more polarized, like the rest of society. You've got liberal christians, who take that reformed and reforming church literally and full approve of women and gays having full participation in the church, and including more recent music, on one side. On the other, you have more authoritarian types who like a never-changing and rigid theology, music that is never newer than 150 years old, (heh), and "no no" to women ministers and gays.

The poor mainline denoms are caught in the middle, trying to appeal to both groups. Sadly, they may be turning off both groups in trying to appeal to both. I say "poor" because I do feel for them, being a lapsed Presbyterian. The mainline denoms do a lot of community work, with little to no fanfare in many communities. Much of the heavy lifting of volunteer work comes from the Presbyterians, the Methodists, the Quakers and the UUs, and Episcopalians. Though the last three are more on the liberal side of things. I'd throw in the Catholic Church and Greek Orthodox church in that mix too.

2) Society is becoming more secular. Church attendance isn't considered mandatory for a responsible citizen of the community as it once was. Thats a good thing, IMO. In that you don't have people going to church just to pretend to be "respectable." People can follow whatever philosophical bent that appeals to them in a more honest atmosphere. You're left with a group that actually wants to go to church and genuinely loves being there for the most part. So, while it might be a smaller group, it's a more dedicated group, perhaps.

All things being told though, I really wish it were the fundie mega churches that were withering on the vine, not the mainlines. The mega churches aren't so much churches as well, in some cases more like resorts with all sorts of amenities: movie theatres, teen discos, even gyms. They make it so you never, NEVER have to leave the church family cocoon and mix with the hoi poloi. This is not a good thing, IMO.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

3. I really dislike those megachurches.

It seems like most them preach a kind of "prosperity" gospel that is anathema to what Jesus actually taught about the poor and poverty. I think you have it right, in that many of the mainline denominations had a lot of "respectable" people in the community filling their church rolls and now they don't have that.

[GreenPartyVoter]

5. I think #2 is really the main part of the problem

[Lydia Leftcoast]

2. I think supernova has some of the answers there

Another factor is that the megachurches are so COMPLETELY "family friendly" that they appeal mostly to people with young children. That leads to automatic increases.

On the other hand, the Episcopal Church gets an unusually high number of converts, mostly people who have been stung by the megachurches but want to remain Christan. There are so many converts that we have a phrase "cradle Episcopalian," which is something like being a native Oregonian: the exception rather than the rule. Many of these converts are GLBT and have been driven out of the denominations that they grew up in. Since they have fewer children than straight people do, this hinders one source of natural increase.

Still another factor in the growth of the megachurches is that they inflate their numbers. Unlike the mainline denominations, they have no standards for deciding when someone is a member or not. Once you join, they never take you off the rolls. In the mainline churches, they have rules, such as in the ELCA, where, at least when I was a young Lutheran, you were off the rolls if you had neither taken communion (the Lutherans keep track of this by having people turn in cards before Communion) nor made a financial contribution.

Another problem is that until recently, the mainline churches "coasted" on the fact that one had to attend church to be socially acceptable. They became lazy and assumed that people would always come to them. They neglected their youth programs and college chaplaincies. The megachurches are aggressively evangelistic, especially among youth.

The only point on which I would disagree with supernova is in the pairing of new worship styles with theological liberalism and social activism. The megachurches have some of the most contemporary worship styles around, while the Episcopalians have some of the most traditional.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

4. On your last point,

I absolutely agree with you. In my town, the most popular Protestant church is the Calvary Chapel, which has modern rock music, preachers in jeans and a t-shirt, etc. but is one of the most fundamentalist churches in the town. They are very intolerant, but use their modern worship style to lure in impressionable young people who became bored with the more "traditional" church they grew up in. The Calvary Chapel seems very cult-like to me.

[Rabrrrrrr]

6. In a choice between ice cream made with real vanilla and cream, or cold white stuff with sparklies,

Americans choose the stuff with sparklies, even if the alternative is hundreds of miles better in terms of taste.

That's my one sentence cynical summation of the major problem.

One other problem has to do with something mentioned above: the mainline denominations just sort of coasted for a long time, assuming that they would be the churches that everyone would flock to, and so they ignored evangelism and cut their youth programs and whatnot. HOWEVER, what the mainlines also did at the same time was move too far into the social gospel movement, where the church was mostly about social justice and social witness; as the people in the pews started to want a more authentic relationship with God and Jesus (starting in the 60s, and kicking up in the 70s and later), the mainlines didn't keep up with that desire. So people left the churches in droves, and then the megachurches came in to fit the bill with a movement toward experiencing and "feeling" Jesus in the lives of the people.

It's a saccharine, mostly empty, "white creamy crap that isn't really ice cream but it has multi-colored sprinkles on top" kind of theology, but it's attractive to an American populace that has been over the last 3 or 4 decades to celebrate mediocrity, fear intellectualism, and embrace selfishness.

The youngest generation now, though, is seeking BOTH sides of the equation - authentic personal experience of the mystical and transcendent-but-immanent God, AND witness to social justice issues and ethical living beyond mere personal piety that celebrates one sexual purity, for instance, while uncaringly stepping over the hungry guy in the sidewalk; who loudly condemn homosexuals to hell as not being really human beings, while boldly proclaiming for the world to look at the incredibly high level of their faith because they bought a $150 polo shirt with JESUS written on it.

I think the time of the mainlines increasing membership has come - many are seeing the emptiness of the megachurches, especially those members growing into their 50s and 60s and realizing that mission and ministry of their churches doesn't give a shit about them or their new spiritual lives as their kids move out, they retire, and they come nearer to death. And this youngest generation that is attracted o the mystical and meditative stuff, like the Orthodox church and Episcopal and Catholic.

And if we're really lucky, and Obama can keep his hand out of Rick Warren's pants, having Obama as president - our first truly mainline president in generations, who isn't into Jesus Crispy bullshit un-nuanced authoritarian hate-based theology that Reagan made so much a part of the White House and government function - might help the mainlines out a lot more, too.

[GreenPartyVoter]

7. I have seen too, that the younger folks in my husband's conservative evangelical

church seem to have been affected somewhat by PC-ness. They seem more sensitive to hot-button issues and feel uncomfortable making decisions for other people. I'm not saying the whole conservative evangelical group will die out. There will always be people whose mindset fits in there. But I do think I am witnessing a shift of some sorts, at least. (I definitely noticed it in the information I have seen on the "Emergent Church.")

As to your white shiny sparkly idea, no doubt that is true.

I don't have a problem with the social justice aspect of the mainlines, but I do think you are right. Some people want a more mystical experience as well.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

12. It's a damn shame.

America accepts mediocrity in television, music, and everything else so I guess it makes sense that mediocre, plastic, religion is what they want also.

I do hope Obama keeps in with his UCC tradition and doesn't pal around with scum like Warren. We had enough of that with Bush.

[shimmergal]

8. A good question..

it's one I've often pondered.

It's not the children & grandchildren of mainline members who join the evangelicals, by-and-large. They tend not to go to church at all. I think lots of them are like my own daughters' families--where the parents, now in their forties, are so busy with work & children's activities that they don't belong to ANY community groups (except perhaps a labor union.) There's just not time or energy.

Plus, they don't see the need. If they want to "do good" they'll volunteer for a group like Habitat for Humanity or a political campaign. Doing it thru a church appears to be a never-ending commitment which they don't know if they can manage.

Plus, Christianity's "exclusivist" claims have turned a lot of them off. I tend to view the "one path to salvation" stuff as a good marketing tool for the ancient world which has now lost its usefulness. But it absolutely turns off a lot of fair-minded people.

Finally, the evangelicals not only have family & children's activities; with their patricarchal outlook they encourage large families and early childbearing, viz. Sarah Palin's example (although Pentecostal is a bit different from regular evangelical, I think). Hence: more prospective members. Also, they "catch" a lot of new members by reaching out to people who're at the very nadir of their lives. They provide a sense of community. If you're desperate--well, any port in a storm. Their many "thou shalt nots" may actually help people who're struggling with addictions. OTOH, if their problems are more situational -- marital breakup or job loss, for example--these people often later resent being taken in by the evangelicals' hard sell.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

9. I think you're right

I've run into a lot of people who were raised Lutheran or Episcopalian or whatever and no longer attend. They're not especially hostile to religion. It's more that it never grabbed them. They're the people who are likely to characterize themselves as "spiritual, not religious" in personals ads. :-)

[supernova]

10. The March of the Passionless

Reading all the responses so far, I wanted to extend an idea that has been churning in my mind for a while now about this topic and is being alluded to here.

What initially ticked me off about my church initially wasn't really the people or the minister. All very nice salt of the earth folks ready to lend a hand. And the minister is always well- educated and extremely likable and approachable. Very far from dogmatic. We usually got very gifted choir directors too, Masters in Music and up.

So what's the problem then?

For a I long time I resisted these thoughts and thought it was me. I was the odd personout. And in some ways I suppose I am. I'll cop to that. Circumstances of my life force me to step back and observe more than most people. Where most are doing, I'm likely to be watching. This often forces me to look at the bigger picture, how the whole of a thing fits together to create an impression.

I was already frustrated in this vein, and Women's Circle bugged the crap out of me! This is what my former church calls the women's monthly bible study group. They meet to follow the school year, as a lot of things do. We have a study guide approved by PCUSA that we purchased every year.

The material itself was interesting. One year, we looked at the Story of Esther. Another year, we looked at some of the forgotten women in the Bible. Women who have important parts to play, but were transient figures, therefore nameless to succeeding generations. It was so very feminist in a lot of ways. Sneaking in to more conservative members of my community under the rubric of bible study actually made me laugh a little. ;-) So, I can't claim the subject matter itself was not relevant. It was.

But geez, the presentation and discussion could suck the life out of a varsity cheerleader! Zilch passion about passionate topics!

I remember Anna Gastheyer (?) talking at some point about an SNL skit they did, a spoof of a typical NPR show they called "Delicious Dish." The thing that made it funny was that it was so *hushed voice* very quiet and bland. No raised voices, no rush of adreneline at the subject matter. AG commented that there was something about an NPR show that you had to get right, which was they had an "excitement level that went all they way from 2 to 3."

:rofl:

She's right. If you listen to NPR often, you'll get this. Mainline worship is the Delicious Dish of Christendom. And for me going to a mainline church is exactly like going from 2 to 3 on the old Excite-O-Meter. Nothing anyone need get too worked up about (for good or ill), nothing too taxing to think about, nothing too untoward happening there. Everybody's behaving appropriately and dressed appropriately. It mildly engaged my mind and my heart and senses only a little (the music, as usual, saved me there).

There's the old joke about being the "frozen chosen." But nobody ever does anything about it. No one seems to think that this is a stereotype that is long past its sell-by date.

And it's utterly boring. This is a shame.

How ironic, since the Bible is filled with nothing BUT passion. God's passionate love for mankind, Mankind's passionate love for and defense of God. Men and women's passion for each other and their children and communities. That passion is one of the chief ingredients in the Bible's holiness, IMO.

How did we get here?

How did we get from oral traditions and stories passed down showing the deep, deep vitality and force for life to ... places where you could present an overcooked noodle casserole as exciting? That's probably an exaggeration. But I honestly don't get it. In that sense, I do understand why the fundie churches are succeeding where the mainlines are not. They are engaging people's hearts as well as minds.

It's an honest impulse and desire that people have these big mega churches are using it badly. How do you reintroduce the passion into mainline worship and life?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

11. A lot of it depends on the skill of whoever is leading the worship

I happen to like traditional liturgies, but they can be deadly when led by someone who is just going through the motions. If led by someone who has a spiritual connection to and reverence for centuries-old traditions, they can be just as exciting and moving in their own way as a fundie sing-along.

You have to educate the congregation, too, particularly the youth. In the past, mainline churches took their congregants for granted, and the secularization of American society caught them napping. They're gradually doing better in this regard, working hard to get young people seriously involved at an early age.

At my church, we had an inspired youth director who made it cool to be an acolyte. There are so many children and youth vying to carry the processional cross, carry the candles, carry the church's banner, and help people up the steps for Communion that we need a monthly schedule. That youth director has moved on, but there's still no shortage of acolytes for what is a fairly traditional service.

Different people respond to different styles of worship. I can't stand folk masses or megachurch style pop music, and a lot of people who turn Episcopalian or Lutheran do so for precisely that reason. In the unlikely event that my church were to bring in a rock band and have us sing "Our God is an Awesome God," I'd leave.

But whatever the style, the clergy person or whoever is leading the worship has to be emotionally and spiritually involved, has to understand the tradition, and has to have a good instinct for timing events and monitoring the congregation's response (sort of like being a good teacher).

[JerseygirlCT]

17. I'd be cool with an occasional folk mass or rock band - but please

not that obnoxious music like on the commercials! ICK!

(Plenty of good contemporary stuff - you just need to be creative. U2, of course, is the first thing that comes to mind - with the U2charists being held around)

[54anickel]

21. Oh my, I'm Lutheran and that's exactly what we are doing....

bring in a rock band and have us sing "Our God is an Awesome God,"

I personally don't have a problem with it, but find it just another distraction from what we should be doing. There's so much hurt in the world, so much healing to take place.
I don't doubt our God is Awesome, I don't need to hear a praise team sing about it. I would like to see Him "kick some ass" and get people's arses off of the pews and into His real, awesome, yet broken world.

[davidinalameda]

13. the right wing churches offer very simple explanations for stuff

it all boils down to if its in the Bible, it's true

if it's not in there, it's not true

the more moderate and liberal churches have a more complex theology

people want everything spoon fed to them

we can't think for more than a couple minutes at a time thanks to TV

[JerseygirlCT]

14. I think part of the reason for the attraction to these mega churches

and other fundamentalist churches is simply the way they market themselves. I know of kids around here who have begun attending b/c they like the rock-type music played there (to grab the kids, of course, never mind the theology). Or families who like the breadth of family programs (again, never mind the theology).

I think some of our more established churches have yet to make peace with some changes - some pretty innocuous, not the big stuff - and especially with simple changes that make newcomers feel truly welcomed. Often you're left to feel outside, even if not intentionally, b/c you don't understand the liturgy or customs, or because the church is rather smaller and you feel like that sore thumb, or is bigger and you feel lost and unnoticed...

My small church has been growing by leaps and bounds recently. We've gotten to the point where we joke about the aggressive welcome committee folks, falling over each other to be the first to talk to someone new, lol. But we've also made it clear that all sorts of people are very welcome, we've made sure we talk about where to turn to follow the service, or how communion works in our church, or all those other things. We welcome kids and their noise and their wiggles with smiles and chuckles. (We had our postponed Christmas pageant today - mainly performed by our huge crew of 2-4 year olds. Boy are they cute! And everywhere!)

I think we're onto something that doesn't have to do with what we offer theologically, but just in a person to person sense.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

15. Yes, while visiting churches in other cities, I've sometimes been ignored,

even in very small congregations.

When I was church shopping in Minneapolis, I dropped in on the Episcopal church nearest the neighborhood where I was looking for an apartment. Although I, my mother, and my stepfather were three obvious strangers, no one spoke to us, not even the clergy.

I sure crossed that church off my list fast, because at my church in Portland the rector told us that our rule should be, "Don't let anyone stand alone at coffee hour. If you don't hit it off with them, introduce them to someone who might."

[JerseygirlCT]

16. Yup

In fact, I remember feeling a bit overwhelmed by some folks (who've now become friends) at my church when I first wandered in. Yikes! Give me a little room, will you? I think I came in, sort of wanting to hide, which is hard to do in a small place. And all they really did was make me feel welcome, and make sure I understood that I was welcome to receive communion, too.

But I've seen a much more concerted effort lately at welcoming people - and they bring family and friends. We've also seen an increase in the number of gay and lesbian people who have felt left out in some other places and welcomed warmly here. Yesterday, much of our congregation attended a wedding of two members - both women. (They couldn't yet be married in the Episcopal church here, as the service hasn't yet received approval.) They expressed surprise at the number of people who came; I told them while I was pleased, I wasn't surprised. It's that sort of place.

I guess the thing is that churches need to be aware of the way they're seen - just existing isn't going to do the job in these new generations. Because it's the church you were raised in is no promise it will be your church anymore. We've got to do more. And lots of those theologically questionable places have already figured that out. They meet needs.

[TreasonousBastard]

19. I think marketing is the biggest part of part it. Went to a...

UU retreat a week or so ago where PR and outreach was brought up, and neither my Quaker meeting nor the UU church I'm now attending is perticularly good at getting people to stick around. this is apparently not just a local problem.

We have lots of ways to get them in the door with special events, but even if they come to a service we don't really have a "welcoming committee" that keeps them coming back. I tried for almost a year to organize "Greeters" but it never really worked for some reason I still don't understand.

Aside from that, Quakers and UUs have creedless worship, or nonworship as the case may be. This puts a major onus on the individual to work out his or her own sprirituality, and there is rarely enough adult education or other assistance, making it particularly confusing for newbies. The problem isn't as big in mainline churches where you have a chatechism and other worship guides, but the fundie churches make it much easier than any of the rest of us-- the doctrinal message is clear and simple and everyone gives you warm fuzzies when you show up.

And, quite frankly, mainline churches have become far too irrelevant and boring for too many people. Without the social pressure to attend a church, or fear of hellfire, people have found better things to do on a Sunday morning.

[supernova]

20. Marketing is a problem to be sure

It may even speak to the old introvert/extrovert debate.

UUs, Quakers and some mainlines might also just attract more "innies" because of their more contemplative style. OTOH, charging a group of introverts with marketing does seem something of a stretch.

:silly:

[TreasonousBastard]

22. I think it may speak as much to our sense of...

propriety.

We aren't the in-your-face Jesus freaks out there preaching on the streets, carrying Watchtowers door-to-door, or buttonholing strangers. None of us in the mainstream (I'm including Quakers and UUs as mainstream for this point) is comfortable with that, and our outreach is often just that tiny ad in the religious section of the local newspaper. Trying to "sell" the church is unseemly, although we'll happily sell cookies and stuff. Actually, we rarely even sell those cakes and cookies-- we just open the door and wait for people to walk in.

For 5 grand, you can buy a church sales package, complete with helpful sales trainers, guaranteed to triple your membership. Guess who buys that package? Hint-- it ain't your local Methodists. I don't know if that package really works, but the tent meeting style places have their sales pitches in place, and they make no apologies about it.

We aren't going for that sort of hype any time soon, but we have to find some happy medium that works, but we can still be comfortable with.

[JerseygirlCT]

27. Lots of truth in that

My former rector joked about the "E-word" and Episcopalians.

But I also think we're really doing it right, anyway. I'd rather encourage us to walk the walk and let that speak for itself. How many people sit in our pews is not the only or even the most important measure of the effect we have on the world and the message we send.

[54anickel]

18. Funny, I just recently read somewhere that he non-denominational mega-churches are

loosing numbers as well, and not to mainline but out of the faith completely. They either move to a secular, non-belief or seek non-christian traditions. Post-Christianity, here we come. Exciting times we're living in!

[Critters2]

23. I just read the The Crystal Cathedral is in serious financial trouble.

Selling property, cutting staff, etc. That's not the craziest of the mega-churches, but I do wonder if its' a sign of things to come.

[supernova]

24. Robert Jr abruptly quit

as head pastor (last month?)

That seems odd. The only things I could think of that would make me quit a family business aren't good. :-(

.

[hvn_nbr_2]

25. I vaguely remember something about disagreements between father and son

I think he may have been pushed out.

[Critters2]

26. We're taking in 9 new members tomorrow....so, I'm doin' my part!

:)

[supernova]

28. Congrats Critters and your congregation

:party:

[Celeborn Skywalker]

29. Awesome!

nt

[54anickel]

30. That's wonderful Critters2! Thank you for "doin your part". n/t

[Sal316]

31. A number of reasons....

Some of which have been hit on by other posters here.

1) Faith has been changed from a belief in God to belief in a cause. Pretty self explanatory.

2) The marriage of conservative Christianity to the obvious political party. Ditto!

3) The absolute lack of discipleship going on in churches today (the mile wide and inch deep theology being taught today). Church has become more about numbers in the door and less about a strong faith foundation. This is particularly disturbing with the youth. We, yes we, are not preparing them to walk out into a confusing and sometimes hostile world. Their faith will be challenged, and we're not doing anything for them by giving them the "sparkly ice cream" version.

4) 70-80 years ago Christians, for the most part, began pulling out of the public square and focused on staying in their own little Christian enclaves, safe from the "evils of secular society". Academia, politics, economic, the arts, etc.... they just left them all behind. The result of that is most Christians have no idea how to dialogue in the public square. The church is so out of touch and still giving 1960's answers to 2009 questions that it's no wonder why their being viewed more and more irrelevant.

5) Community is being redefined. The church is no longer the center of community it once was. With the explosion in the number and variations of churches, people are less likely to become fully invested in a particular faith community. If they don't like one, they can just go to another, until they get to the point that NONE fulfill them totally and they just drop out.

These are just some thoughts.

[54anickel]

32. I tend to disagree with your comment on being "out of touch and still giving 1960's answers..."

Those 60's answers of social justice, equality, peace, etc, are timeless and should never go out of favor. I think just the opposite, we need to get back to those answers and get rid of this "it's all about me" bullshit.

[Sal316]

33. I agree with your statement...

...social justice, peace, equality ARE timeless and have been since the prophets of the OT.

Perhaps it was a bad decade to use as an example of how out of touch the church has become, relying on "Leave it to Beaver" time period answers to today's questions.

It wasn't to disparage the 60's. :-)

[54anickel]

34. Ah, I get it. Yeah, the church seems to think it's in the business of telling people what

they want to hear. Worse thing is that a lot of members want their teenaged kids to be indoctrinated the way they were taught and what they were taught. The church has been all too willing to oblige them. Then they wonder why they loose them after they reach high school.

[Critters2]

35. I think no. 3 above is completely wrong. The churches with shallow

theology are the ones that are growing. But these are not the mainline churches, they're the Evangelicals. The mainline churches are doing interesting things theologically--mimetic theory, process, liberation...but not growing by leaps and bounds as the "just love Jesus and you'll get to heaven" places are.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

36. As I mentioned above, some mainline churches got complacent and

didn't realize that they had to provide Biblical and theological instruction in order to retain their people. It was a matter of getting some simplistically retold Bible stories in Sunday School, and then, everyone assumed that social pressure would keep people showing up. Society also helped by not having shopping or other activities available on Sundays. Lutherans were exceptions in providing two to three years of confirmation classes to all youth, although that custom disappeared some time in the 1970s.

(Growing up in solidly Lutheran-Catholic Minnesota and Wisconsin, I was astonished at age 22 when I woke up on Easter Sunday at Cornell University and saw people playing tennis in the courts next to my dorm. Then I recalled that Cornell was 40% Jewish, so of course, neither Easter nor Sunday would have any religious significance for them.)

[Sal316]

37. I see your point....

....but I see, from personal experience, that the "love Jesus and get to heaven" theology is actually driving people away from the church because it's not feeding them spiritually.

I'll have to plead ignorance and take your word on mainline churches simply because I haven't been to one in quite a while. If they're doing those things, then great!