I'm wondering how Progressive Christians who are not Girardian deal with Satan in scripture.

[Critters2]

Do you just ignore those passages that seem to present "Satan" as a personal entity? Do you see Satan as a metaphor, and if so for what? Do you deal with this in some other way?

Just curious. Last week, the lectionary text was the one where Jesus rebukes Peter by saying "Get behind me, Satan". I found myself grateful that Girard has helped me see "Satan" as anyone, or anything, that tries to blind me to the violence of the scapegoating mechanism, thus encouraging me to be part of the mob.

Before discovering Girard, I found the whole concept of Satan difficult and troubling.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

1. I haven't read much theology

(that's next year in my EFM course), but unless you want to be a Manichean (I have read church history), with Satan cast as the evil counterpart to God, you have to view Satan as the personification of the evil impulses that everyone has.

Sometimes those impulses will be so strong that they seem like an external force.

The idea of Satan could have originally been an extension of the notion of demon possession, which most of us would now recognize as mental illness. If you've ever had dealings with a mentally ill person who has good days and bad days, you may have noticed that on the good days, the person talks about their actions on bad days as if they happened to someone else. Thus it may seem as if the person has been taken over by some other entity.

And if there are demons, they need a leader, right?

[Critters2]

2. I see Satan as the one--any one--who tempts us into participating in mimesis, competiton, and

scapegoating. This passage from Neuchterlein's website explains this pretty well:

1. Gen. 3, by my reading of it, gives insight into both the Girardian roles of the devil/Satan: (1) the one who tempts us into our constant fall of mimetic desire into rivalrous desire, and (2) the one who makes the fascinating accusative gesture that lures us into scapegoating. Verses 1-7 tell the story of the fall into rivalrous desire. Man and woman are in a non-rivalrous relationship with God, modeling God's love for creation and sharing in its stewardship. But the serpent tempts them into rivalry with God; they model the desire for the forbidden fruit as expressed by the serpent.

Our passage for this day gives insight into the role of Satan that's at issue in the Gospel: pointing the finger of blame that leads to a casting out. The man blames the woman, and the woman blames the serpent. Interestingly, if the serpent is cast in the role of Satan for the first part of the story, the man and woman play the role of Satan in part two, and the lection ends with a curse on the serpent. Is this an example of Satan casting out Satan?





Girard's book _I See Satan Fall Like Lightening_ finally helped me to know what to do with the Satan passages in scripture. Probably the clearest moment is in Job, where Satan goads God into scapegoating, or at least allowing the scapegoating of Job.

[wryter2000]

3. Hey, we had that bit of scripture, too.

It jarred me. I've only been attending church for 3 months now, and it was the first time I heard the name Satan. I'm not familiar with Girard, but it seemed to me that Jesus couldn't have literally meant that Peter was Satan. I read it more as Jesus' way of saying that doubt should get behind him. I believe Peter had just doubted Jesus.

As I listen to the Gospels, so much seems to involve the Apostles questioning Jesus's strength.

[supernova]

4. I've always viewed Satan as the

personification of not necessarily evil, since he doesn't "go there" himself, but the personification of doubt, insecurity, jealousy, even rage, since all of those things that, if not accepted and kept in check, lead us to do evil things.

He's great at motivating others to do his dirty work, IOW.

I've always had a very hard time with the notion of a constant battle between Satan and God, with humans caught in the middle. That's a little too simplistic for me since it has the potential for humans to not take responsibility for our own evil actions.

I think Lucifer is kind of the trickster character of the heavenly host and does serve a purpose. He provides contrast by way of anti-savior, anti-God if there is such a concept. He's the bitter to the sweet, the profane to the sacred. If you don't know the shadow side (the profane), it's very much harder to appreciate the fullness of the good (sacred).

[dcsmart]

5. i think we have to understand how satan was understood

in biblical times. when jesus rebukes peter he is saying that peter at that moment is embodying the complete opposite of what jesus was trying to accomplish, as would satan.

21 From that time on, Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and undergo great suffering at the hands of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised. 22And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying, ‘God forbid it, Lord! This must never happen to you.’ 23But he turned and said to Peter, ‘Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling-block to me; for you are setting your mind not on divine things but on human things.’
Text

NRSV

see search site
http://www.ncccusa.org/welcome/sitemap.html#NRSV

obviously at that time satan was consider a real entity, in combat with the god of Israel. for those people who postulate the existence of god i think it would be reasonable that they do the same of god's opposite, satan. that would apply for theology today. if theology wants to talk about god, i think it must also talk about satan. if someone believes god is a real entity then believing satan is a real entity makes sense to me. most of what we read above about jesus suffering and rising on the third day is not jesus speaking but the evangelist. it is the early church retelling the resurrection experience. although, jesus yelling at peter is, according to some NT scholars, probably a real event passed down.

[Critters2]

6. How is this not polytheism? nt

[dcsmart]

7. not sure what you mean

well, maybe i do...but clarify...i just replied to your reply to my post LOL

[Critters2]

9. Isn't Satan a god, or at least a demi-god, in your way of thinking?

How does that work in a monotheistic faith?

[JerseygirlCT]

8. Haven't studied Girard

but yes, I've always thought of "Satan" as an instructional metaphor - for the ugliness and selfishness and even hatred inside most of us.

In fact, I've usually thought it far too easy, theologically, to think of Satan as a distinct being. Makes it too easy for we humans to see those things that take us from God as outside of us, and beyond our control.