Let's get this party started...

[boomboom]

For those who belong to a church......do you ever feel censored? Do you feel your church ia partisan? Do you ever cringe when you overhear other members discussing a particular "moral issue" but are afraid to speak up?

I went to Christian counseling last week, affiliated with my church, to talk about basically how concerned I was I came from a different background (liberal), a different philosophy (liberal), a fear of being judged. I was all wrong. Anyone else?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

1. No, my church is quite liberal

Episcopalians tend not to question one another's philosophies--except for a few fossils.

[boomboom]

2. I've come to think

That my fear that I'm a minority in my church is all in my own mind. I'm working on and praying about that currently. Man, life is a constant struggle. We're so hard on ourselves.

[melnjones]

3. I can relate...

I'm part of a recent church plant, and before we had launched I was getting to know some of the other people in my congregation. I got into what should have been a fairly innocent politics conversation, but somehow my saying that I was frustrated with the way schools are (or aren't) funded immediately let to a man asking me, well what are you, a liberal? I calmly responded that I'm more of an independent than anything but did support Gen. Wes Clark and campaign for him during the primaries, and his next response was, well how can you be a Democrat and a Christian when they kill babies? Ugh...The conversation continued, and i found out that later he went to my pastor, told him about our conversation, and asked him, so, what are we going to do about this? I had been reduced to a "this", simply a problem instead of a member of the church. Thankfully (and to the surprise of this man) my pastor is a pretty liberal guy and was like, what are you talking about...people will have differing opinions, that's just how it works. I've had bad experiences in other churches as well. I only hope that I can be a light to my church by sharing the truth that I know.

[boomboom]

6. That's exactly the response I was afraid of

Fortunately, most church leaders aren't at all like some congregation members. Praise God! Do you still run into this man?

[melnjones]

18. I see him every Sunday!

It took me awhile to calm myself down (I was pretty bitter). I finally got up the courage to start greeting him on Sundays, and we're finally to the point where HE can initiate greeting ME as well, and we can hold short conversations quite nicely. Praise God for that:-) I'm learning to appreciate the man that he is, as he's a good father and husband, and really is a devoted Christian. I admire a lot of things about him. Unfortunately, he's pretty misguided on a few things. That's one of the hardest things for me- to accept that just because someone is a right-winged nutjob doesn't mean they are NOT a devoted Christian. They are wrong on some things, yes, but it's that learning to forgive them part that is so freaking hard for me, especially when I'm often in the minority.

[Kat45]

4. Fortunately, my church is quite progressive.

I belong to a Congregational (UCC) church and I'd say we are the most liberal of Christian denominations. I've met more folks who are like-minded politically at church than I have elsewhere.

[Cuban_Liberal]

5. My parish is pretty 'blue'.

I initially 'observed', to get the lay of the land, but I became active once I figured out that the parish was mostly progressive.

[supernova]

7. Sometimes

I don't feel that I can often bring up topics that I would be interested in. Or, more often, the subject just never comes up and it doesn't seem the right time.

Things like contemplating the divinity or not of Jesus, that Paul really has no place tells us gays can't be ministers if they want to, that sort of thing...

[boomboom]

8. Supernova

To what church do you belong? I have so many gay friends that sure seem to be filled with the Holy Spirit. More so than many hets I know.

[supernova]

9. PCUSA

Presbyterian Church USA. It's more traditional, than anything. Not really conservative, in the same sense we mean it here. The congregation is about split 1/2 and 1/2 down the middle on these kinds of topics.

But I personally am farther out there than most in my congregation. I can only think of perhaps 1 other person who shares my outlook on these topics. That's what's got me in a quandary about "should I stay or should I go?"

re: gays. I should add gays are welcome in the congregation, they just can't be in a relationship AND be an elder or study for ministry, if that's their calling.

I imagine that at some point in the future we will drop this silliness. Generally, PCUSA comes down on the right side of human rights. Witness our recent falling out with Israel over the Palestinians.

But I wonder if I have the patience to outlast it. :shrug:

[boomboom]

10. I love the Bible, but...

Literally, there are no deacons, elders, or leaders of Churches other than males allowed. Women are allowed to study the ministry and are allowed to have secondary ministries. I would assume that in most current Christian churches the norm has been that a male, as long as he was assumed to be heterosexual, was a preferable leader. I'm not sure how I feel about this. I know that given all of us struggle with our own sins, why only heterosexual men can lead. But, that's just me......

[supernova]

11. No, women are allowed to minister and be elders in PCUSA

My minister is a woman. I'm a woman elder, btw. PCUSA is very woman-friendly.

As for the bible there were women who were leaders all along and of the early church. Miriam, Moses's sister, Esther, Mary Magdelene, Priscillia, whom Paul seems to have been partial to. So female leadership is not unknown in the Bible, just not highlighted that well.

Do you belong to a congregation that is strictly male leadership? Just curios. I thought you were American Baptist.

[boomboom]

12. I beong to a Baptist church

More specifically, Southern Baptist. Our church is huge......there are many pastors, many deacons......all male. There all also many bible study leaders, choir team leaders, prayer leaders, counselors, etc., that are female. It just seems to me that the "leaders" of the church are male, as per Acts and 1 Timothy. I'm a woman. My church is pro women, I guess, to a point. Is this a too literal definition of Scripture?

[boomboom]

13. You know.....

It surprises me what I just typed. I'm such a proud, outspoken female. Apparently everywhere except my church. Maybe it's because I'm a fairly new Christian that I want to totally follow Scripture on this feminist issue. I do know, as a once again divorced woman, I will never marry a man who doesn't love Jesus more than he loves me...

[supernova]

14. Ahh, I see

You do know that the SBC has a long-standing policy that women are not for ministry or church offices, yes? If you are satisifed with that, that's ok.

The desire to follow Scripture is admirable. There are many Christianities and many different ways to understand the Bible.

[Cheswick2.0]

16. you are a new Christian? If you would like to share your experience

in becoming a Christian I would love to read about it. I have always been interested in how different people become "believers" and what motivates them.

[boomboom]

27. Well...

I've always considered myself a Christian. But I was in name only I guess until I attended a Beth Moore bible study on the fruit of the spirit that I was filled with the Holy Spirit and truly born again. I've been to many bible studies, many churches, have done much reading and worship, but this was different. I suddenly turned away from (most) of the destructive things (or people) in my life, joined my church, and changed my life. Praise God!

[Cheswick2.0]

28. so it was more of a sudden conversion

than a gradual awakening. That's interesting, I think that happens a lot more often with more evangelical or fundamentalist churches.
Gradual awakenings seem to be more likely in moderate or more liberal theological denominations.
That's my little theory, though I have no idea if it holds up.

[boomboom]

29. Well, I don't know....I guess so.

I had done 4 years out of the 7 year Bible Study Fellowship. A very intense study of the Bible. I'd spent a ton of time wanting to be a Christian....then suddenly I was. In the way I'd always prayed I would be. So I guess that is sudden. The Holy Spirit works that way.... I was not a member of any church at the time.

[melnjones]

20. It's a tough one, isn't it?

My church is a Christian and Missionary Alliance church, and in our denomination women aren't "ordained", they are "confirmed" or some crap like that. Even my pastor is unsure of what all that means, but a friend in my church told me women can't be pastors, only missionaries or lay leaders or whatever. I about shit a brick! Fortunately I am attending my church because of the church itself, NOT because of the denomination, and if that's really the way it works I'll gladly work through the Church of God in the coming years as that's the denomination of my university. They ordain women:-)

On edit...I'll see if I can find some good resources about women being in the ministry. I do believe it is Biblical.

[melnjones]

21. Ok, visit this link...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=291x95

[Cheswick2.0]

15. I would hate to see you leave but would understand it

The whole denomination is struggling over the subject of homosexulity and there is a movement on both sides of the argument. I would hate to lose anyone on the liberal side. Unfortunately I think that there will be a split in PCUSA over this subject.
I wonder if there is anyway to start of a program to educate members about this issue. I wonder if we could set a roving band of homosexuals and those of us who love them and accept them to go from state to state and give teach ins?

[RevCheesehead]

17. We've had attempts at doing that in the UMethodist Church, too...

Some areas are more open in looking at or studying homosexuality (and other "liberal issues") than others are. I also think that we have become more open, and less fearful, in the last 10 years or so.

It is clear in the UMC that the homosexuality issue will NOT go away. The conservative branch is so fearful, they are the ones talking about "an amicable separation" of the denomination. Very contrary to John Wesley's "all things in moderation," they want everyone to think and believe in exactly the same way.

I'm of the opinion that our diversity is one of our greatest strengths. I also believe that we WILL become more accepting and more loving.

Our church PR campaign has a great motto: "Open hearts - Open Minds - Open Doors." Some day, we may be able to live up to that ideal.

[Cheswick2.0]

23. It sounds like your movement was somewhat successful

but like us Presbys you are still struggling with this. I think it would be great for my church to start something like this and see what happens.

[supernova]

26. The struggle is much the same in PCUSA as it is in the UMC

To be more accurate, there are those who want a more literal interpretation of the Bible and those who want a more open interpretation. Where these two groups collide specifically, is over the position of gays within the church.

In PCUSA, this debate plays itself out in two movements within the denom:

On the conservative, anti-gay side, there is the "confessing church" movement. http://www.confessingchurches.org/

On the more liberal, theologically open side are the "more light" churches. http://www.mlp.org/article.php?story=20040910121727858

I guess my real issue with my present church is that it is neither. I'm glad it's not a conservative, evangelical confessing church. But neither is it a more light church. We sort of side step the issue altogether. We get along by ignoring it.

edit: Whether I left the PCUSA or not, the decision wouldn't strictly be about treatment of gays. I'm a member of the DU Loners group too. My decision would also be a function of whether or not I can find a way to have a more individual, contemplative experience vs the more public, committee mentality that pervades PCUSA. IOW, I don't know that it's really the body for introverts like me.

[AngryOldDem]

19. I feel uncomfortable at times...

...but these are in small groups, not necessarily when I sit in the pew. The homilies tend to be pretty nonpartisan.

I am sad to report, though, that such divisions effectively killed my parish's Pax Christi chapter. Over the summer, during the height of the election mess, we pretty much split along Bush/Kerry lines. The two or three Bush people insisted on seeing every discussion we had along anti-Bush, pro-Kerry lines, which (obviously) made open-minded discourse hard, if not impossible. Things were taken personally, people could not focus only on the topics being discussed, and set out to make Pax Christi into a political issue rather than a social justice one. The group never really recovered. Other reasons entered into the group's demise as well, but this split (which occurred with some acrimony, too) spelled the end for PC. Some friendships ended over this, I think, and that is what saddens me the most.

[RevCheesehead]

22. I'm interested in learning about Pax Christi..

It sounds like an organization. Is it led by laity, or clergy?

Just wondering if there's a chance for reconciliation there..That would be one way of taking a "positive" from this election.

[AngryOldDem]

24. Here's more on Pax Christi

It is primarily laity-led, buy clergy are involved. Pax Christi is worldwide. Does almost everything imaginable for human rights, social justice, etc.

http://www.paxchristiusa.org/

I don't see this group re-forming at my parish, unfortunately, I think because some of the issues Pax Christi discusses do not square with some political opinions, which leads to small crises of consciences at times. Some would just rather walk away than deal with the dilemmas. At the time the group broke up, we were discussing the costs -- financial and otherwise -- of the Iraq war. With cold, hard, nonpartisan facts. We had made tentative plans to also study the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops' "Faithful Citizenship" guide to voting -- I even ordered copies of the booklet -- but the group was dead by October.

Hope the website is helpful. If you need any more info, don't hesitate to ask.

[RevCheesehead]

25. Did you see this part?

http://www.paxchristiusa.org/news_events_more.asp?id=707

Reflections on Election 2004
A new moment, moving forward - by Dave Robinson

A letter to Pax Christi members - celebrating victory in the midst of a divisive election - by Eric LeCompte

A time to grieve - by Tom Cordaro

Let us not fear - by Christopher Cherney

**********

There may be some other resources available. You might want to contact them and explain your parish's situation; they may have ideas, or perhaps will write something like "election healing."

Thanks for the link!