Is this the Sectarian Group, then?

[WritersBlock]

I was afraid this would happen. Already there's an "England Sucks" thread.

Folks, I've lived in the UK for over five years, and I don't even pretend to begin to understand the politics involved in this, except to know that, even in Scotland, if I wear a blue shirt in town, I'm labelled as one thing, and if I wear a green shirt, I'm labelled as something else. It can affect my job prospects (I kid you not) and if my kid wears the wrong shirt around the wrong group of kids, he stands a chance of getting the shit beaten out of him or even getting killed.

Do we really want to propagate this sort of thing on DU?

Please. Before you go off on the hatred tack, read Skinner's post at the top of the page.

Peace.

Edit for clarity & attempt at understanding.

[Maeve]

1. I think we should follow Plaid Adder's advice

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=2405638#2420782

1) No rejoicing in the deaths of people on the 'other' side (we're all human, folks)

2) Resist resorting to tribalism ('what do you expect from those nasty Brits, they oppressed our ancestors for 800 years, they all suck, every last tea-sipping one of them' / 'those crazy Irish lunatics, always blowing each other up just because Patrick Pearse told them to, what can you do with them but drive them into the sea'). Delete posts that seem to be trolling for tribalism.

3) Post from the assumption that a peaceful resolution to the conflict is the desired outcome (as opposed to the extermination or expulsion of one faction or the other, for its own sake)

4) No gratuitous Catholic/Protestant bashing

Okay, the "England sucks" thread violates #2, but put it down to forum-opening high spirits. Can we get agreement to abide by these guidelines, a chairde? (friends)

[two gun sid]

2. Agreed

"Everyone, Republican or otherwise has their own particular part to play. No part is too great or too small, no one is too old or too young to do something."

Bobby Sands (1954-1981), on hunger strike in 1981

[WritersBlock]

3. Thank you.

You propose what look to be very workable concepts. And I agree, forum-opening high spirits happen.

To friends :toast:

[DaveinMD]

4. its not sectarianism

to say that England has no right to occupy Ireland. I'm Jewish and I've always believed this.

[JohnKleeb]

5. yes

hell I am not even mostly Irish but I do believe England has been wrong to treat the Irish, Indians, Africans, and other people like they were inferior and occupy them. I sympahize with the Irish of course because I am part Irish and no English, thank god, and am a Catholic too. The england sucks thread was just joshing around. I don't advocate violence but I understand where they are coming from.

[DaveinMD]

8. I completely understand the violence

The American revolutionaries were violent. Irish Republicans are violent because they are fighting an illegal occupation. And the provisional IRA came back to prominence when they were defending nationalist communities from attacks by protestant paras, the b specials and the RUC.

[JohnKleeb]

10. Yep

It really is sick what has gone on honestly.

[DaveinMD]

11. and yet

the American media blames the IRA. Many more Catholics have been killed in the confict. And there is document collusiion between the RUC, the british security apparatus, and the protestant paramilitaries. Not to mention internment, the lack of due process of law and rampant discrimination against Catholics in all walks of life. None of that ever gets mentioned.

[JohnKleeb]

12. well we are a mostly protestant nation

I am telling you, especially in a state that is only 13% Catholic, I feel like a minority, especially as a Eastern European American also, we are so rare in these parts.

[DaveinMD]

13. its because

of the country's relationship with England. The press doesn't have a bureau in Belfast or Dublin. Its in London. And the state department will never speak out against something England does.

Don't you remember the uproar from the state department when Clinton gave a visa to Gerry Adams. The media will just report what the BBC does on this issue. And the BBC has never been honest about this issue.

[JohnKleeb]

14. No I dont remember the uproar actually

I was young then but I have read that Teddy Kennedy and John Kerry were big supporters of that. That does make sense, our relationship with England. There is so much dishonesty about this issue, you know that Ian Paisley got an honorary degree from Bob Jones University?

[DaveinMD]

15. the state department

went nuts at the time. There was a huge uproar in the media. You should read "The Troubles" by Tim Pat Coogan. It goes into a lot of detail on this issue. "The Committee" is also a must read. That one is about the collusion issue I referenced in another post.

Its no surprise Paisley got a degree from Bob Jones University. He's be a Klansman in this country.

[JohnKleeb]

16. Paisley has always hated Catholics like BJU has

The thing that is amusing to me as a Catholic is despite knowing far more Protestants than I have Eastern Orthodox, etc, and our past feuds with the Eastern church, I identify with them more by far.

[DaveinMD]

17. as a Jewish person

it always amazed me that christians fight with other.

[JohnKleeb]

18. It amazes me too

I identify with the Eastern Orthodox more probably because of coming from countries that have more of them, and besides I think those beards are way cool, ok thats the hangover/high in me talking.

[RogueTrooper]

41. Actually PIRA came into being

to defend the nationalist communites from the b-specials and the RUC. At first they used to man the security checkpoints with the British Army. It was not until later ( thanks the the UK government putting the Army under the control of the Protestant dominated Ulster parliament ) that the two found themselves on opposing sides.

[Donkeyboy75]

42. OK, fine.

But then you have problems with that philosophy. Should all Americans vacate the United States? We, after all, are still occupying lands that belonged to the Native Americans for thousands of years.

The occupation began long ago, and it's not fair to those who happen to be descendants of idiotic British policy decisions to expect them just to get out of NI. The solution must involve compromise. A simple "get out, Brits" is not the solution. It's too simplistic.

[WritersBlock]

6. Actually, one of the definitions of "sectarian" is,

(according to the Concise Oxford English Dictionary, if I may quote from this):

carried out on the grounds of membership of a sect, denomination, or other group.

But I won't argue with you.

I made an attempt to try to stop this trainwreck. What happens next is up to y'all.

I'll leave this forum now.

Enjoy! :)

[DaveinMD]

7. sectarianism

in NI is Catholic v Protestant. England created this mess because they illegally occupied another nation. They need to get out.

[JohnKleeb]

9. They do

Seriously, I know Ireland is a beautiful country English folk, but you can't just go occupy a country because its beautiful and treat its inhabitants like second class citizens just because they're Catholic, and they wonder why groups like the IRA were started.

[Maeve]

21. Actually, the issue had already been sorted out

The quote from Plaid Adder I gave above can also be found in the ATA forum in the request for this forum. And the issue had been raised in the original thread in the Lounge, as well.

It's not going to be a "trainwreck", as you would find out if you stay around.

[DemBones DemBones]

19. I hope we will avoid tribalism and name-calling.

My heritage is primarily English (25% Irish, the rest English, possibly some Dutch ancestry) and I've greatly enjoyed visiting England's West Country, where my family has always lived, even staying with some who still live there.

But I also want to know more about my Irish heritage, even if it turns out to be Scots-Irish, and as a Catholic and a progressive, I'm on the side of the Irish Catholics: BRITS OUT!

It's like this: the US has done (and is doing) bad things but it's still a beautiful land with many good people, just WRONG in some of its governmental policies.

We can say the same about the UK.

[DaveinMD]

20. exactly

I owe my life to the British for fighting the Nazi's. However, their policies in Ireland have still been criminal. Its still a wonderful country.

[JohnKleeb]

22. Good music too

Theres a lot I like and admire about the English people but theres a lot I hate too especially their Ireland policy.

[Tweed]

23. African-Americans, give up! Native Americans: Forget about it!

Excuse us for getting our anger out at the English in one thread that was mainly a joke.

Your post makes me think that you need some catching up on the politics. You yourself said that you don't know about them.

The reason that there is more fever for an Irish Affairs Group rather than an Irish forum is because half of Ireland's population came to America during 1870-1920. They came to America because people literally STARVED to death. The native population had the worst land possible. All the good land was owned by English land owners. Eating food from that land was forbidden. The Irish had to make due with pockets of rocky, hilly land that could only grow potatoes. When a couple of strands of crop diseases swept through Europe, Ireland was hit the worst because the disease hit potatoes hardest. People couldn't grow anything. They couldn't eat the food that they saw in the English fields. The English government did a damn thing to help them out. Many left for America. The others that stuck around starved to death or had to see the majority of their family leaving for America and dying of course. Today, we would call this genocide or ethnic cleansing. Don't think for a second that there weren't sick bastard Englishmen drolling over the situation.
Things got better over time, but many injustices still remain and I haven't even touched upon the English police state that existed in Ireland well into the 20th century.

Most of the threads that have been started have nothing to do with anything outside of Ireland. Thanks for focusing on the one negative thread. I happen to think it's warranted.

[JohnKleeb]

24. amen dude amen

[DaveinMD]

25. The British Police state

still exists in Northern IRELAND. Its not sectarianism to stand up for what is right and just.

[JohnKleeb]

26. yes, northern IRELAND

[DaveinMD]

27. yep

Its IRELAND. There is no such thing as Ulster. That's like if we made Iraq the 51st state and stayed there for 300 years.

[JohnKleeb]

28. its just such a shameful thing they've done

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

29. Dave, yes there is such a thing as Ulster.

There are four provinces in Ireland, Ulster, Leinster, Munster and Connacht.

The province of Ulster consists of nine counties: Antrim, Armagh, Cavan, Derry, Donegal, Down, Fermanagh, Monaghan and Tyrone.

When the statelet Northern Ireland was made up in 1922, thank you Lloyd George and Michael Collins, the Brits allowed Cavan, Donegal, and Monaghan to be included in the Irish Free State, now known as the Irish Republic. The reason this was allowed to happen is simple, the Catholics were a majority in those three counties at that time.

The remaining 6 counties became Northern Ireland.

[DaveinMD]

30. I know

but you know what I mean. I was referring to the statelet.

I don't blame Collins. He took the deal to move towards the Republic. He would have kept up the pressure for a united Ireland had he lived.

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

31. I'm not blaming Michael Collins either.

I agree with you he took the deal, in fact, he knew by signing the agreement it would cost him his life.

However, do not get me started on Eamon DeValera. He was an evil man..

[DaveinMD]

32. we completely agree

he set up Michael Collins.

[JohnKleeb]

33. I dont know too much about DeValera

Collins from all I know was a good guy though.

[DaveinMD]

38. two books you must read

both by Tim Pat Coogan.

Michael Collins
The IRA-A History

[JohnKleeb]

39. Will read, god I got a lotta reading to do

[DemBones DemBones]

34. It's all true and all terrible. As I said, I'm mostly English and I KNOW

my people have done terrible things and have many eccentricities, such as a lot of their food. And I'm OK with one "England sucks" thread, just hope we don't get into it too much. As a Catholic and a Southerner, my skin is singed most times I visit DU as it is!

[JohnKleeb]

35. Yeah, the thing is, theyve done terrible things to other people

I'll acknowledge that often.

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

36. When I first saw that thread yesterday "England Sucks"

my first thought was, Jaysus here we go again.

I have no problem with the people of Great Britain. In fact, I have distant cousins that live in England.

To say England sucks because of the British government's policies toward Northern Ireland is as assinine as saying the USA sucks because of our government's policies in Iraq and many other parts of the world.

Most people in the UK outside of Northern Ireland, want the Brits to get out. It's costing them too much money..

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

37. Do you live in/near Glasgow?

Just wondering because of your reference to the blue shirts and green shirts.

[RogueTrooper]

40. You must live in Glasgow

the rest of Britain is no longer like that; and even that sort of sectarianism is dying out.

[Wat_Tyler]

43. I think you're over-stating the level of sectarianism in Scotland.

In the twenty-two years I lived there, it never affected my job-prospects, family or health.