Women use and defend the compliment of 'having balls'.

[Captain Hilts]

"It's just an expression."

Really? To 'compliment' someone by saying they're something they are not?

Is it a compliment to say to a black person, "that's awfully white of you"? I don't think so.

Being female and/or being black does not make women/blacks lesser beings.

This expression has got to stop.

[seabeyond]

1. give the woman a dick, balls and she is accomplished, call a man a pussy

or girl, he is insulted.

yes.

i have pointed this out to sons.

i have used in past, but thought it thru, dont anymore.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lightningandsnow]

3. I like replacing it with the term "ovaries".

As in "Girl, it took ovaries for you to do that!"

:)

[seabeyond]

4. or courage, dedication, tenacity..... n/t

[lightningandsnow]

5. I was kind of kidding. I know what you mean.

:)

[seabeyond]

6. i was kinda

winking. i knew what you meant.

:hug:

[Scout]

7. i've said exactly that....

after all, what good would balls do me if i had them?

although i have been told i have balls :shrug:

[femrap]

25. I often say....

Hey Woman, you got Ova!

I like the sound of it.

[Captain Hilts]

26. The plural is kinda neat, isn't it? nt

[Behind the Aegis]

8. I haven't really seen that of late.

I saw it many times in reference to H. Clinton during the primaries or demands for them from Pelosi, but haven't really seen them of late. Personally, it is an expression to declare extreme strength, as opposed to "get a spine." I have seen many people use "ovaries" in place of "balls." I do it when speaking about a female.

As for ""that's awfully white of you"," that is a compliment? I was always taught it was insult and have always used it as such, rightly or wrongly; usually doled out to someone "begging" for a compliment for something mundane.

[iverglas]

9. "personally"?

Personally, it is an expression to declare extreme strength, as opposed to "get a spine."

I can't quite interpret that. Do you mean that is how you personally interpret it, or how you personally use it, or ...?

In any event, I'm not taking your point.

[Behind the Aegis]

11. It is how it is used by some and I how I use it.

It was originally just a cruder version of "grow a spine" or "have some guts," but at some point it evolved into meaning taking extreme, drastic, or uncharacteristic actions. It was a reference to a "burst of testosterone." In the late 80's, (I think) was when women started using the analogy with female reproductive organs. It never quite caught on and was seen more as a "PC" version of "grow some balls." However, the expressions "get a spine" and grow a set" are still used interchangeably by some, probably most.

"In any event, I'm not taking your point." Irrelevant as I required nothing of the such.

[iverglas]

14. "I required nothing of the such"

I'm really not following. I noted that I failed to take your point. You reply "Irrelevant as I required nothing of the such".

I didn't ask what you required.

I was asking what your point, in this thread, was.

Yes, "ovaries" is a rather silly effort to produce a counterpart to "balls". Female genitalia do not have the social connotation of strength, audacity -- all the characteristics associated with maleness in our society, so using female reproductive organs to try to make a point about characteristics associated with maleness just makes no sense.

The underlying fact, and the point here, surely, is that those characteristics are associated with maleness.

Suggesting that someone grow balls, in order to remedy his/her deficiency in certain characteristics associated with maleness, simply amounts to adhering to and lending more force to that stereotype.

It isn't "just" a cruder version of "guts". It is a very particular cruder version.

Strength, audacity, courage, integrity -- the stereotypes say these are male characteristics. And not female characteristics.

Why would we want to use expressions that perpetuate those stereotypes?

[Behind the Aegis]

17. Then, I misread your intention.

I thought you had dismissed what I wrote out of hand.

I wrote what I know has been discussed about the issue. Whether you like it or not, or think the stereotypes are are accurate or not, does not change the history behind the use of "ovaries" in place of "balls," nor does your labeling such items "crude."

"Why would we want to use expressions that perpetuate those stereotypes?" I said nothing of your using or not using them. However, smashing stereotypes is a good thing.

[iverglas]

19. this is the Feminists forum

I am wondering why you have posted in this thread, if all you are doing is offering a lesson in current idiomatic English.

the history behind the use of "ovaries" in place of "balls,"

is simply a misguided attempt to level a playing field that is not level, and that is not levelled by trying to produce equivalent idioms for idioms that are grounded in stereotypes.

Whether you like it or not, or think the stereotypes are are accurate or not

Again: this is the Feminists forum. The likeableness of the expression, and the accuracy of the underlying stereotypes, is actually the subject matter here.

[Behind the Aegis]

21. I know what forum it is and I know I am allowed to post here based on its rules not your permission.

I find it interesting you "sigh" about knowing history, then criticize in the very next post because history of the expression was used. I said nothing about the appropriateness nor lack thereof.

[iverglas]

24. well

I find it interesting you "sigh" about knowing history, then criticize in the very next post because history of the expression was used.

I'm having a hell of a time figuring out what you're talking about.

I very certainly did not criticize anyone/anything because the history of anything was used.


I said nothing about the appropriateness nor lack thereof.

Care to?


typo fixed; we Canadians don't really spell it "aboaut". ;)

[Captain Hilts]

28. It's spelled 'aboot'.

I spend a LOT of time in Toronto.

[Captain Hilts]

12. Yes! 'That's awfully white of you was used as a compliment, even among whites to each other.

I've heard it.

[Behind the Aegis]

15. Well, that is news to me. I have only used as it as insult...

...and only heard it used as such. The only thing similar I have heard used as a compliment, which I do not use, and correct people when I hear it, is "that was a Christian thing to do."

[iverglas]

16. it may be said sarcastically now

But yes, "mighty white of you" was indeed originally a favourable thing to say.

Sigh. People really do think there is no history, or history just doesn't count.


edited to add: I wouldn't bet on the historical derivation asserted, but the usage described here seems to be about right:


http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mighty%20white%20of%20you
(my emphasis)

mighty white of you

Foolish phrase used by some to show so-called white superiority. Phrase attributed to the south, and coined during days of slavery. Now sometimes said in a sarcastic manner to people who act as they are superior because of their race.
When Bob threw a nickle into the UNICEF can at the office, and said "Those people should be glad I felt so generous." I said to him "That's mighty white of you ass."

[Behind the Aegis]

18. Sigh indeed.

Read your own responses. I am quite familiar with history of words and languages. What I said, very clearly, was I had not heard it used as a compliment. I never said or implied it hadn't been used as such. Your emphasis is almost exactly what I said in my description of the phrase.

[iverglas]

20. That's nice

I'm glad you're familiar with the history of words and languages.

You did miss my emphasis, though -- it was on the "now". I emphasized that part to show that the usage may be sarcastic NOW, but the expression was used with a straight face by its originators and those who used it for decades.

The initial point was that it was analogous to expessions involving "balls". It is. The fact that you have never heard it used straight notwithstanding.

Again: other than offering lessons in the use of language, is there something here you are discussing or would like to discuss?

[Behind the Aegis]

22. Do you actually bother reading the words in my post or just make up your own conclusion?

"The initial point was that it was analogous to expessions involving "balls". "

And yet, it is not.

[iverglas]

23. and yet, it is

Unless we are to take you as our authority on all things etymological.

http://www.wordorigins.org/index.php/site/comments/thats_white_of_you/

that’s white of you
Dave Wilton, Sunday, February 18, 2007

Often phrases like call a spade a spade or words like niggard are mistakenly given racist etymologies. It is easy to understand why such mistakes are made in our race-conscious society, although it often seems as if I am battling the forces of ill-informed political correctness to preserve the right to use these words and phrases. Sometimes though, words and phrases do indeed have origins rooted in racism. And the phrase that’s white of you is one of these.

White, meaning of European extraction, has been used to mean honorable and fair-dealing since the late 19th century.

Besant’s and Rice’s The Golden Butterfly (1877) has this:

A good fellow is Rayner; as white a man as I ever knew.

And the Century Magazine from 1883 has this:

You’ve behaved to me like a white man from the start.

Edith Wharton’s 1913 The Custom of the Country uses the phrase white of you:

Well—this is white of you

And later on in the same work:

I meant to act white by you.

So if you ever catch yourself about to write or say the phrase, pause and reformulate your words, lest someone takes offense.

(Source: Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd Edition)

"White", in that expression, is in fact very closely analogous to "balls".

Characteristics universally regarded as good -- in both cases here, honourableness, as one -- are ascribed to one segment of the human species: white and male, respectively.

In both cases, it is a compliment to tell someone, whether s/he belongs to that segment of the species or not, that s/he has the characteristics of that segment.

Both expressions very clearly depend, for their meaning to be taken, on the notion that the characteristics in question are not characteristic of the other segments of the species -- people of colour and women, respectively.

And here we have the very essence of stereotypes, I believe.

And I am still wondering WHAT YOUR POINT IS.

It appears to be that there are no underlying misogynist notions in expressions invoking "balls" to mean integrity, audacity, courage, etc.

Perhaps you would just say whether that is your point.

[iverglas]

10. recently in some thread in some forum

someone pointed to the alternative, "guts".

Someone else had never heard it.

As the language has become more vulgar, the opportunities for misogyny have just multiplied.

All my own life, I heard/said "guts". S/he has guts, s/he hasn't got any guts. "Intestinal fortitude", in the pseudo-refined version. Associated with "don't have the stomach for it", I'd think. "Guts" being the vulgar version of its time.

Then it got all wrapped up in testosterone.

Funny thing, I guess, is that in an earlier generation it just wasn't couth to impugn someone's manhood in public, at least in not immediately related situations, when "be a man" or the like would apply.

Vulgar language and genitalia references became socially acceptable, more cutting insults became socially acceptable, and that concept itself -- that someone had the guts called for -- got lost in the fun of all the vulgarity and manhood-impugning.

An idea that originally drew on some old notion of needing a strong stomach for certain tasks got twisted into needing testosterone for the job, and not being a real man if you weren't up to whatever job it was, especially if it was one calling for integrity of some sort.

Me, I think the whole balls thing is just vulgar and stupid (and I have definitely never used it). And by no means a compliment to say that a woman has the balls for blah blah.

Same old thing. "Normal" -- having courage and integrity -- is male. A man who lacks them isn't a real man. A woman with courage and integrity has male characteristics.

[Captain Hilts]

13. I'm just surprised how many women use it and consider it a compliment.

Sexism is THAT pre-reflective. Even feminists don't catch it.

[iverglas]

27. just a little reminder

Attempts to minimize or dismiss women and/or the issues being discussed are not welcome.