Economic downturns and women's exploitation on-line...

[bliss_eternal]

I talked about this a bit before, in another thread about ads I've seen placed on Craig's list (and other job sites). Ads that specifically ask for "female applicants" and "pictures." This might be appropriate for talent agencies, but the ads run the gamut from restaurants, administrative positions, event planning companies and health clubs. :shrug:

Fed up with flagging ads, and seeing far too few disappear, today (after work) I conducted an experiment. I found ads that were local to me (that requested pictures in their ads) and called them up. I introduced myself as a "consultant" and asked for a manager.

Here's what I found:

Some of the establishments weren't hiring, nor seeking applicants. They were shocked (and thankful) that I took the time to call and inquire. In all but one case, they were well aware of the state laws and stated they wouldn't request pictures for any position.

What does this mean?

That there are creeps out there, perusing the internet for legitimate businesses they can use to "phish" for unsuspecting, unemployed, females (probably also young, naive--unaware that it's illegal for companies to request their photo). Who knows what these disgusting individuals are doing with the photos they receive.

:scared::grr::mad:

This situation makes me so angry.

It also frightens me. It's just a matter of time before we start hearing reports of young women that applied for a "job" on Craig's List or another job site, and are now missing. :cry:

[iverglas]

1. query

When you say you "called them up" - you called the number in the ad, or you called the establishment from a phone book listing?

If someone were placing the ads and using the establishments' real contact info ... that wouldn't make a lot of sense. ;)

The idea does remind me of a Law&Order episode. Serial sexual offender places ad in paper offering "shabby chic" chintz sofa for sale. Just the sort of thing to attract youngish women buyers.

[bliss_eternal]

2. You're correct.

...it would not make sense.

So yes, I retrieved the phone numbers from other sources(they weren't in the ads).

In fact, most of the ads had a request for "no phone calls, please." That also made me suspicious (when you couple it w/an illegal request for a photo.

Understandably, some companies make "no calls" requests so they aren't interrupted or deluged with calls while working/busy. So it's not an unreasonable demand in a classified ad.....

....BUT if the ad is fake, they clearly don't want "calls" going to the actual establishment for other reasons. It ruins their scheme to get the personal information and photos the moment anyone calls the company (and learns they didn't place such an ad).



edited for clarity.

[iverglas]

3. so

The request was for a written application w/photo, and obviously with personal details (i.e. address, phone number) too.

There was a postal / PO box address in the ad? (Or email address for replies? Forgive me, I'm not sure how Craig's List things work.)

Seems like something the police might be interested in, seriously.

[bliss_eternal]

4. That's ok....

...I don't mind explaining, and I understand your not being familiar with the site.

Craig's list is kind of the "amazon.com" of job sites. ;)In the sense that they serve as the 'middle ground' for potential applicants, and employers seeking applicants. They attempt to keep all parties 'safe' by providing registered users (employers, applicants, etc.) w/anonymous e-mail accounts (to send responses to). This serves as a 'po box' in a way.

The 'craig's list' e-mail address--allows all involved to maintain some privacy. An employer doesn't have to provide a company e-mail address and be subjected to spam. An applicant can maintain privacy (to a degree) by not having to share their personal e-mail address.

Quite a few companies state their company name in their ad. Some also use their company e-mail address for responses, and some even provide a phone number for applicants to use to call (i.e. questions, directions to apply in person, etc.) These aren't usually the problematic one's, though.

Applicants are usually asked to send a cover letter and resume with current contact information (i.e. phone number, etc.). Though that's pretty standard for any job applicant, this is where the "applicant privacy" goes out the window (as far as applying on-line). Many people don't even think about the fact that their home address is included on their resume.

The red flags for me were seeing ads asking for resume AND a photo. Also ads that have asked for that, and additionally requested ONLY female applicants. :eyes: Some are really out there and have the audacity to state "young, pretty." :puke:

I have this image of some creep getting photos.
Worse--getting the photos and then attempting to prey upon a woman whose address he obtained from her resume. :scared:

They have terms of use for people that "buy" and/or "sell" things and how to stay "safe" in such transaction. But there's little to nothing for what kinds of "job scams" people may find on their site. :scared: :shrug: :crazy:

For example:
http://www.craigslist.org/about/scams

Look how cheap it is to place an ad:
http://www.craigslist.org/about/job_boards_compared

Small price to pay, for sick dudes seeking women to prey on. :grr::mad:

[iverglas]

5. ah

Same principle as PO Box / email address, via an internal PM system.

I haven't meant to dismiss your concern at all, believe me; it was just the mechanics I wasn't getting.

It's another variation on people's far too widespread failure to grasp that the internet is not a *secure* place. Disclosing personal information to anybody involves risks. Disclosing all that info to an anonymous PO Box, whether it be by snail mail or PM, is a bad idea. And it is almost beyond question that someone will have figured out that there is a pool of people out here who haven't figured this out, and is exploiting that fact.

Bringing us back to my perennial theme: vulnerable individuals, and the extent to which measures need to be taken to protect them. Even if it means giving up some of our own margin of manoevre in some ways.

[bliss_eternal]

7. Oh--I didn't feel dismissed at all, iverglas.

:hi:
I understood that you were trying to get a handle on craig's list (how it works, etc.). It isn't easy to understand if one is unfamiliar with it. I was hoping my explanation was sufficient and didn't confuse you.

The situation is so alarming to me. The same way youth being solicited in on-line chat rooms by pedophiles disturbs me. The anonymity of the internet makes it a hotbed for attempts on the vulnerable. I'm all for giving up some of the "margin of manoevre" (as you said--I like that, btw) if it means it keeps more women and children safe from crap like this.

[elleng]

6. It is scary,

AND, did any hear Olbermann saying someone has been 'pretending' they're him, on twitter? He is NOT a twitterer, but someone's signed up in his name.

Nothing like modern times!

[bliss_eternal]

8. Whoa...

...I didn't hear this!
When did Olbermann say this?! Was he alarmed? Pissed?

Personally, I have no desire to participate in those sites (twitter, myspace, etc.) (Slightly o/t)--Reading stories of women who've joined those groups, only to have old bf's (or former friends, acquaintances, etc.) sign up, find them and then post not so flattering pics of the women--scared the shit out of me.

One woman said a former "sorority sister" posted "drunken" photos of her, rather "scantily clad." The woman is now a professional and was appalled, wrote the "sister" begging her to take the pics down (she did)...but yikes. :scared:

[elleng]

9. He said it last night (Friday) and he was both alarmed and pissed,

tho he was polite in discussing it. He told it as a warning to others.

[ismnotwasm]

10. Pimps

Actual or would be. Sick. They probably consider themselves business folk or perhaps even artists in the rare case. But they're pimps

edit; Caught this on MSN.

More women going from jobless to topless

CHICAGO - As a bartender and trainer at a national restaurant chain, Rebecca Brown earned a couple thousand dollars in a really good week. Now, as a dancer at Chicago’s Pink Monkey gentleman’s club, she makes almost that much in one good night.

The tough job market is prompting a growing number of women across the country to dance in strip clubs, appear in adult movies or pose for magazines like Hustler.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29824663/?gt1=43001

So, who got the dough? Men evidently.

[bliss_eternal]

11. Glad you posted this.

...thank you. I saw the headline, when checking my e-mail account--still need to read it. Headline made me sad, though.

I agree...pimps.
:puke:

[seabeyond]

12. i want to meet a rich stripper. everyone i know cant make rent, or pay electric bill

we, as a society, keep promoting the pretty life, but i have yet to meet a stripper/prostitute living it.

[ismnotwasm]

13. Yeah, I was thinking that too

And the drawbacks to stripping were downplayed. "Jeers" of the customers. "Occasional verbal abuse" for which you need a "thick skin". And a couple of big, scary club bouncers, and an escort or at least a taz or other weapon when walking to your car.

Let's see "$100,000-$300,000 a year even in an economic turndown" Really? Anyone still think men are not sexually entitled, that women face incredible economic disparity? Now, in Seattle, there is a four foot distance rule, which the strippers argue violate their rights to earn income. No up close and personal table dancing. Men who go to strip clubs are paying for a certain product and want their money's worth.


My youngest daughter went to a strip club for the first time as a viewer, and was appalled at the difference between what she thought it was, and what it really is. My son recently went to a strip club for the first time after boot camp, and watched his buddy spend a thousand bucks. They obviously come away with very different experiences.

I've known women who occasionally have made that kind of money, but their income was hit and miss, they had no financial skills so didn't save any. They depended on regulars, the military, frat boys. The "pay my way through college" women certainly exist, but their stories pale besides the tragedies. The women I knew generally augmented their income with money from private shows such as bachelor parties, to actual crime.

The really smart women got out of the industry as soon as possible. It does something not particularly good to your brain or your emotional life-- how you think, how you respond, what pleases you, this having a constant connection between your sexual self and income.

[iverglas]

14. heh

I was telling the occupant of the other end of the chesterfield about this phenomenon last night. He said: yes, and soon the word "modelling" would come into it.

I'd forgotten about the version of these scams we used to be subject to. Back in, you know, 1970.

Happened to me the odd time when hitchhiking, and once, must have been the first time, as I was walking down the street.

Car pulled over, wanted directions, the ever-helpful young woman obliged. We are obliging, aren't we?

Then it was: have you ever considered modelling? Okay, I was cutish, but I was 5'6" and pretty perfectly height-weight proportionate, thus obviously disqualified. (Even then: Twiggy.) Not always having been so cute, I might have been flattered and not snorted outright. But right thereafter, the term "see-through blouse" came into the conversation, followed in rapid succession by the term "fuck off" ...

Young women need to be told, over and over and by sources they will trust and believe, that:

(a) there are predators;
and
(b) they should listen to their instincts and act on them.

[bliss_eternal]

15. I'm not sure what it is about 'the internet'

...that makes people feel 'safe' to do what they do on-line (share personal information and details, photos, etc.) but it's a predatory playground. It's like adults assume their too old for the pedophiles and there aren't any other on-line predators to be concerned about. :banghead:

A member of a forum I used to visit felt "safe" sharing details of her life--like the actual name of the company where she worked, and frequently complained about it. Another member, printed out all she said, and faxed it to the company--getting the woman fired.

Someone else that shared pictures and personal information frequently, found herself stalked by a member of a board she belonged to. Somehow the other member obtained the woman's home telephone number and took to calling her daily. The woman was forced to change her phone number and eventually had to get a restraining order (which was tricky because she'd never actually met the person face to face).

I guess I was lucky.
The very first time I posted to an on-line board (requesting information), some creepy dude IM'd me offering the info I'd requested. Didn't even take a minute for him to start asking inappropriate questions and 'when can we hook up'....so he could 'help me'. :eyes: So I saw right away that there were predators.

[iverglas]

16. sometimes you gotta learn for yourself

But I like to think I would have heeded advice, had I been given it.

I started out on the net harrying anti-choice assholes on a board of theirs, about 10 years ago. About the only personal info I did give was the city I lived in, which was relevant to something or other once. But that was enough. Those people keep files.

One of the very unbalanced ones decided to accuse me (not by name, but everybody knew what she was saying) of having hacked her computer and threatened to shoot her children. Well, we all know what a computer whiz I am not, and what the likelihood of me having a firearm is. ;)

Then she announced that she had recently made a trip across the border to a tourist event in my city, that takes place for the most part about 6 blocks from my home. It was perfectly believable, because it tied in with her own background (hell, she's the one who exposed her own self on the internet: she was a champion in a particular sport in the US).

I was literally quaking in my boots for a couple of weeks. She was a loon, she'd made a public accusation against me that was sure to inspire hatred in the breasts of all right-thinking people, she knew the city I lived in, and she'd been within spitting distanceof me.

Then me 'n one of her other victims (not stalked online to the extent I experienced from her) got together and did our homework, and discovered that *she* had left enough tracks on the net that we were able to find her full name, her place of employment, her husband's name, etc. etc. And finally managed to persuade her that if she didn't go away permanently, we would publish them.

Never no more do I give out any of even the most basic info.

Travelled south of the border in 2003; had to go to Florida to get my dad's stuff after he died. Stayed with three women I knew from those old boards on our way down. Actually exchanged phone numbers and spoke by phone before I left home, for mutual confirmation of the truth of our purported selves -- but other than that, it's a very rare person in cyberspace who knows anything about me now!


edited to add missing word

[bliss_eternal]

17. An example....

(cut and pasted from Craig's list) w/identifying information removed....fyi-this ad was placed by a woman, or at least a female's name is used for the reply e-mail)

:puke:

San Fernando Valley's premium grooming destination for men. From the distressed leather sofas and newspaper imprinted tile, to the red stained wood floors, plaid and pinstriped walls. Fin is the ideal place for the discerning male who knows a finished look is all about the details.

We are searching for (2) Hostess. The ideal candidate must be a professional female who is, outgoing, personable, and is fashion conscious. She must also have strong interpersonal skills, be sharp and detail oriented, ability to multi task in a busy environment and follow instructions. At this time, only part time positions are being offered.

Please respond only if you can answer the following questions.
1. What pay rate are you willing to work for?
2. Can you work Mornings?
3. Is Northridge, California to far of a drive for you? (If so, please do not apply)
4. Are you 21 years or older?
5. Do you have the right look and personality to fit our mostly professional, male clientele?
6. Are you on time?
7. Are you a team player?
8. Do you have Computer Skills?
9. Are you Detail Oriented?
10. Do you have the ability to Multi Task in a busy environment?
11. Can you stay positive in tense situations?
12. Can you answering a telephone and take detailed messages?
13. Do you exhibit a high level of charisma & grace while working in tense situations?
14. Can you work a variety of shifts including weekends?
15. Do you have strong interpersonal and communication skills? It’s for your benefit (cash tips have been given).
16. Can you pay attention to strict details?
17. Can you accurately record and maintain each client that walks through the door?
18. Can you work in a standing position for long periods of time (up to 5 hours)?
19. Can you work in a standing position for long periods of time in “high heels” (up to 5 hours)?
20. Do you have style?
21. Can you follow directions?
22. Do you have a problem wearing high heels to work? (Can be small or high)
23. Do you have a problem with an all Black Dress Code?


This is how the Fin Interview Process Will Work:
1. Submit an e-mail stating that you would like to come to the open interview.
a. E-mail to: ( removed )
b. Write in Subject Line: (“Your Name” AND “Fin Hostess Staff”)
2. Round 1: Open Interview
a. Date: Friday, March 27 2009
b. Time: 12:00-2:00pm
c. Location: TBA
d. Things to Bring to interview:
i. Resume
ii. Recent Photo
3. Round 2: 1 day of Training (no pay)
a. Day 1: 4 hours (Days TBA)
4. Round 3: Submit an E-mail after training is over. (Deadline for submitting email is 2 days after the training day).
a. Write whether you decline the job offer or accept the job offer.
b. Write in Subject Line: (“Your Name” AND “Hostess After Training at Fin Barber Shop”)
5. Round 4: Final Selection Process: (Owners will make their Final decision and chosen candidates will be notified)


Why didn't she just call an escort service?

:grr::mad::puke:

[ismnotwasm]

18. Oh lord

"You're such a pretty girl, you should be model" She's such a beautiful girl, her daddy is gonna have to beat them off with a stick" "She's going to be a heart breaker when she grows up" (The proud father "I already have my gun loaded" I should note this isn't anything I'm making up)

All these messages we send to our girl children. Essentially saying "When you grow up, you can make money with your sexuality and your body, and it's OK, girls do it all the time, and have been doing it for centuries--that must make it right, right? (Can't have females too certain about anything)Remember, It's different with boys, 'cause boys have different, more intense needs. In fact, they can't control themselves. They need to be sexually placated at all times. Male sexual needs always come before female, it's nature"

(And then there is things like "Men are visual orientated" You think? Men are certainly exposed to a lot of flesh to orientate to.

Women aren't encouraged to be "visually orientated" I often wonder if we had sexual equality and could share beauty and sexuality on a level playing field if women didn't like to look just as often. I remember that study where they placed thermometers in women's vagina's and measured the temperature while they watched porn. Yup, temperature risin', Turns out women can be visually stimulated. No fucking shit.)

Or any such Stepford Mantra.

These ads are probably successful in the environment we have. Woman who want to own and control their own sexuality never realize it's already been sold. They don't call an escort, perhaps because they don't want to be involved in prostitution, not understanding that female sexuality as commodity is merely a matter of degree. Or, that a pimp is a pimp is a pimp no matter what the circumstances or the sex of the hirer of the female body. I hate that they call female pimps "madams" Bullshit. They're pimps.

[iverglas]

19. they should probably advertise for a copy editor and legal counsel

Hey! I can do both!

"Can you answering a telephone and take detailed messages?"

Er, I dunno. Am I canning?


They have also advertised for barbers (now expired ad) and a shampoo assistant: "The ideal candidate must be a professional female who is, outgoing, personable, and is fashion conscious." With identical "qualifications" required.

I've flagged them both as prohibited. I assume ads that violate equal opportunities legislation are prohibited.

Easily found by googling "fin barber shop" -- and it doesn't appear anywhere else. G'head and report 'em, all.

[bliss_eternal]

21. Thanks for flagging...!

I did as well, when I saw them. :(
Can't believe they also want sexay barbers. :puke:

[iverglas]

22. I wonder

Can't access the old ad, so don't know whether it was sex-specific. Wouldn't be surprised if they wanted men. ;)

I meant to say -- this reminded me of another thing from the olden days. Back around 1990, my then co-vivant (the one with all the problems) and I occasionally amused ourselves by reading aloud from the print personals in the local daily.

I had never been able to figure out what the several regular ads by "Mistress <name> haircutters" were. I'm sure I was (and am) just naive. But he didn't know either. So one night he just picked up the phone and called. Asked how much a haircut was. She hung up on him.

So I'm thinking there's a subtext here that is beyond just sex discrimination by an employer.

In the olden days, we called them "massage parlours".

[bliss_eternal]

23. I don't think you're off base...

...I started to wonder the same thing.

If they are that sort of "massage parlour" they would also be in violation of craig's list for not placing their ad in "erotic services."

[iverglas]

25. well

It seems to be a money-making venture by a washed-up athlete/"actor", so I suspect it isnt what I suspected. ;)

I just went to the bother of signing up at myspace so I could send him a message. Okay, so I have a sad and empty life.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Would you like to explain to your viewing public why you have repeatedly violated the law in your ads on Craig's List?

You are an adult. You cannot possibly be unaware that it is illegal to discriminate in employment on the basis of sex. And yet your ads specify the sex of the employees you will hire.

Of course, it is also illegal to require that job applicants submit photographs with applications, etc. etc.

Your behaviour is, to put it in a nutshell, scummy.

One wonders what your reaction would be to employment ads specifying that applicants for menial personal-service jobs with obvious sexual overtones must be black men with big muscles.

Do, please, explain yourself on your myspace page.

[bliss_eternal]

31. .................!

Lmao!

:rofl:

[iverglas]

24. whatever it is

it seems to be for real:

http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:xSbfUETU0ecJ:www.myspace.com/finbarbershop+%22fin+barber%22&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

google's cached version of a myspace page; I tend not to go directly to pages I don't want to be seen at.

"Owned by actor Duane Martin and his real estate broker and friend Dennis Earls, Fin is truly the San Fernando Valley's premium grooming destination for men."

Anybody ever heard of actor Duane Martin?

Heck, I'll bet he belongs to a union.

Well would ya lookie there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duane_Martin

An ex basketball player too.

Wonder what he thinks of ads looking for black men to perform menial personal-service jobs.

[bliss_eternal]

26. What's worse than dick lint...?

...that's what he is.

:grr::mad:

Seriously, that's beyond fucked up. I've never liked that guy, and the fact that he's taking business cues from rap/hip hop industry/videos just makes me sick.

They're in the right place for it, I guess. San Fernando Valley is the porn capital. (sigh)

Is it wrong that I'm rooting for his pending failure?
:eyes:

[bliss_eternal]

27. I assure you...

...he would form every kind of protest if someone were discriminating against, or exploiting he or one of his black brothers. This shit makes me sick. It's bad enough that his 'brothas' exploit black, latino and asian women in their pos videos, now he creates an enterprise that's nothing but?

:puke:

[iverglas]

28. good grief

You actually know who he is??

I think I'm old.

Well, old and not USA'n.

[bliss_eternal]

29. the ONLY reason I know...

...is he married an actress I was aware of (popular in some movies and sitcoms of early '90s). Him...not so much. Wouldn't have known of him otherwise. :thumbsdown:

[iverglas]

20. so get out your fakey email addresses

And send them a dozen or two messages.

Mine:


So I'm curious.

http://www.eeoc.gov/types/sex.html

(and state legislation, I'm sure).

"It is unlawful to discriminate against any employee or applicant for employment because of his/her sex in regard to hiring, termination, promotion, compensation, job training, or any other term, condition, or privilege of employment. Title VII also prohibits employment decisions based on stereotypes and assumptions about abilities, traits, or the performance of individuals on the basis of sex."

Have you applied for and obtained an exemption of some sort?

Assuming that you have not, why are you intentionally and blatantly breaking the law?

[bliss_eternal]

30. What's wrong w/this picture...?

Hustler Casino's ad is more 'professional' in tone and specifics, than a barbershop?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hustler Casino
Casino Food Server
Major Responsibility:

Provide quality and courteous food and beverage service to Casino guests.

Other Responsibilities:

1. Acknowledge and greet customers and guests in a friendly and courteous manner.
2. Assure that all orders are taken correctly and efficiently.
3. Always have the proper condiments and set-ups on the service trays when serving meals to guests.
4. Remove unused and finished service trays promptly from the gaming area.
5. Maintain accuracy and accountability of all Casino food checks.
6. Assure that all “comped” checks are approved and signed by the Floor person, VIP Host, or Casino Shift Manager on duty.
7. Maintain a clean work area at all times.
8. Never indicate that tips, “tokes” or gratuities are expected or required from customers.
9. Maintain a professional appearance and posture at all times.
10. Perform all other work-related duties as assigned by the Floor person, or Casino Shift Manager.


------------------------------------------------------------------------

:wtf:

Flynt is the biggest pimp/panderer out there...yet his 'company' manages to stay within the constraints of the law.
No 'sex' or 'gender' specifics.
No questions about comfort w/heels, requests that one 'be attractive' or 'fashionable.'

:shrug:

[BlueIris]

32. Disturbing. Thanks for posting. nt

[bliss_eternal]

33. Perhaps some have been warned about this practice....?

...or at least ads like this make me wonder:

Office help in Healtcare setting

Looking for an honest, reliable, friendly person who can speak and write clearly. The job is assisting in the office with various office duties which will include cleaning and sterilizing, setting up rooms, greeting and seating patients and breaking down the room afterwards and more cleaning. The job
requires someone with good physical coordination and steady hands. You will be assisting the doctor with delicate procedures. Please post resume and photo in body of e-mail. I am an equal opportunity employer and the photo is to see if you look professional.

Thank you


"to see if you look professional...."?
Riiiiiiiiight. :eyes:

(p.s. typos and misspelling aren't mine)

[iverglas]

34. I wonder

whether this particular one might not be about race.

Sounds like a chiropractor to me. ;)


... Eenteresting. This one also appears at lagaylife.com -- Oh, I see, that's just a mirror.

[bliss_eternal]

35. Interesting observations...

...I'm curious what made you think 'chiropractor'? Seeing sterilization of instruments and assistance for procedures I thought 'hair transplant' physician, or possibly a 'dentist.' :shrug: Chiropractor would make sense, though. He said 'health care worker.' If it was dental he'd probably be more specific.

Oh, and what made you think 'racial' issue, as opposed to just wanting someone 'super hot' to look at every day?
(Some male doctors are notorious for wanting 'eye candy' to flirt with around the office.)

[iverglas]

36. anything's possible!

I think it was the reference to assisting the doctor with "delicate procedures" that brought chiropractic to mind. ;)

Also "good physical coordination and steady hands".

Now, I would think that no actual doctor (as the advertiser called him/herself) should be employing *anyone* to assist in actual procedures who is not a certified practitioner of some health care occupation or other - nurse, dental hygienist, etc. So I don't know what to make of this one.

I do just think that the photo requirement is probably a long-standing practice among would-be racial discriminators. In this case, the "who can speak and write clearly" might also suggest wanting someone for whom English is not a second language.

[bliss_eternal]

37. Ah...ok.

That makes perfect sense. I'm going to keep an eye out for those cues.
I appreciate your explanation! :hi: