so what is it about "ma'am"?

[iverglas]

I post this link only because it's where I most recently saw the issue raised, and I just don't get it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=9015951&mesg_id=9015951

What do women in the US want to be called? What is an equivalent of "sir", as a form of address? "Here's your change, sir." "Here's your change ..."?

"Lady"? I hope not. That's the equivalent of "Mac".

"Miss"? Why would an adult want to be addressed by such an infantilizing and likely inaccurate term (it being the term for an unmarried woman)? Having 7-11 clerks nearly four decades my junior call me "Miss" makes my skin crawl.

"Madam"? Yes, the proper counterpart of "Sir", but not often used in ordinary speech.

What is this bizarre aversion to a perfectly proper form of respectful address??

[supernova]

1. I think it's more of an age thing

There are women who don't like it because being called "ma'am" (rightly the contraction for "Madame" as you pointed out), makes them feel old, like their grandmas.

I don't mind it, but then again, I'm quite formal to strangers, so being called "ma'am" when I am with strangers doesn't bother me. Then I have the opportunity to say "Please, call me supernova!"

:-)

Miss you out on the big forums iverglas.

:hi:

[iverglas]

2. oops, my manners

I'd meant to slip in a thank you here to anyone hereabouts who might have bought me my star.

I simply cannot work PayPal. This is the only thing I've ever used it for, and having done it a few times now, once a year, I recall that every time I did it I had to set up a new account because I had no clue what the old one was or how to find it ... and I've just flaked out. So twice now some kind stranger (or not?) has done it for me. If anybody wants to show themself to me by PM, I'll get to say thanks properly. If I got more than one PM, hmm, well, I'd just have to think I had more than one benefactor. ;)


Oh, and of course, what I meant to say -- the big forums. I'm afraid that, what, 8 years on, I've watched them change from a place where people discussed things, where I could learn stuff and exchange ideas and info with people who knew stuff and had thoughts, to the online equivalent of Jerry Springer. Why most people post most of the bumph and drivel in threads there that they do, I just have no clue. And too obviously none of them read what anybody else posts, so ... well, why bother?

[bliss_eternal]

3. I tend to agree w/your assessment ...

...that in many cases, it is an age thing. hearing someone say,"...Ma'am" the first time, can make one feel old--and wonder,"...Wow, when did that happen? When did i become ma'am?" :( LOL!

I tend to see it as an attempt to be polite (which I sincerely appreciate). It depends on the circumstance. In some situations when addressed as, "Mrs. Eternal" I may say, "...please call me bliss--Mrs. Eternal is my mother-in-law." :scared: But again...it depends. Sometimes I sincerely appreciate the formality, as one that also addresses strangers formally. ;)

People seem to find it odd that I'm a, "please" and "thank you" type of person. I guess it seems a foreign concept in these high tech times of short hand and text messaging. :shrug:

:hi:

[ismnotwasm]

4. I saw that

My opinion? Here goes; Women who need to feel that they are still youthful and attractive, see "ma'am" as a aging term and therefore unsexy. Waste of time, if you ask me---self esteem comes from the inside.

Would those who hate ma'am, defend 'bitch' in these type of discussions? We wonders.

My two oldest are military, or ex-military in my daughter's case, and I noticed they use ma'am and sir.

Besides I use ma'am and sir all the time with my patients and in the community. Both terms can be either respectful or slightly humorous or both, and carry the same gender value.

[comtec]

5. But wouldn't that undercut the entire point of feminism?

That is equal worth despite appearances?
The undermining would seem to come from thinking that a term of respect makes you feel older and less sexy?
What would be the happy medium for these women I wonder.

that aside, I've always seen calling a lady ma'am as a sign of respect.

I suppose maybe part of it in the end is the intent?
Perhaps the words used are "wrong" but if the intent behind them is sincere, is that so bad?

[ismnotwasm]

6. I'm not entirely sure what you mean

Many women reject "feminist" as a label, even while they would agree with a lot of feminist philosophy. On the other hand I've seen women defend the most grievous anti-women shit. Leaves me just shaking my head.

Feminists themselves discuss language and it's impact, yes, but we also discuss the historical background and implications as well as it's effect on the present, the future. Where does "lady" come from? What is a lady? A female, or a special female? One who's behavior falls within certain patriarchy approved perimeters?

Both "ma'am" and "sir" also have classist roots, but have come to mean general terms of respect, one of the few that have near equal gendered value with their impact. (Off topic, but I'm a sci-fi fan. In certain sci-fi, gender distinction in terms of respect have must less meaning, and respect *is* the primary intent rather then whether one is male, female or other)

Intent is one thing, but understand words do shape culture. The words we have for female all have some baggage, mostly negative and destructive. The few gender specific complimentary words we have for female are also set up with a kind of is/or logic. One is a Lady, or one is not.

Anyway, the road to misdirection and bad faith is paved with good intentions.

;-)

[iverglas]

7. we wonders

Indeed. ;)

I'm from north of north, from your perspective, and from a quite informal, lower-middle-class background / neighbourhood etc. "Sir" was for teachers. The first male teacher I had was grade 5, and that's where I learned that. And I was just trying to think what equivalent there was for female teachers - and there just wasn't. "Teacher" if you were a young one. In England, all female teachers are "Miss", and you southerners have your "Ma'am", but we just had no formal, polite, generic form of address for women.

"Ma'am" has never been in common use here (urban Ontario). That's why I get pimply 7-11 clerks and telephone solicitors calling me "Miss". In the latter case, when they aren't calling me "Mrs. Verglas", the phone being in *my* name and the co-vivant having his own surname, which gets them a brief explanation of the error of their ways and a farewell.

One of my favourites was the time at our community clinic when I was hanging around the waiting room waiting for him so we could grocery shop across the street. Someone stuck her head around the wall and said "Are you Mrs. Vivant?" I looked around, realized I was the only one there so she must be talking to me, and said "uh, no". It was 15 minutes later that it came to me what the name she'd said was, and I realized that what she was really asking was whether I was there with Mr. Vivant. Never did find out what she wanted.

Oh, then there was the time in about 1974 when a retail clerk I liked (I used to buy a lot of sewing stuff in her department) pressed me to apply for a store credit card. So I -- Ingrid Verglas, shall we say -- did. A letter came back informing Mr. and Mrs. Ing Verglas that their application had been declined. Bizarrest thing I ever saw.

[comtec]

8. I can add to your example of insanity...

My wife added me to her bank account here in the Netherlands.
You would think, with the image it had around the world, that Holland would be very progressive.
This is not the case.

Being both older and male the bank account suddenly became mine!
Ok not technically. But the "owner" benefits moved to me.
My pin (atm) pass can pull more money out per day, and I can spend more at the till.

This is something both my wife and I find to be incredulous!
Sadly this is common.
We've tried several times to explain that I am the SECOND holder and that my wife should have the major benefits.

Eventually we just gave up. and if we need to make a purchase over her daily limit of 500e she just uses my card.

I'm sorry I don't have a light at the end of the tunnel. The US, is in many ways more progressive for women than Holland - which is not as progressive as they like to project - and the US still has a long way to go.

The only "up" side to this somewhat rampant sexism is that if you are a mother you get 6 months maternity leave (mandatory-you boss MUST pay this) and the state gives you a small amount of money to raise your kids (about 250e a month/child). I think men get 3 weeks paternity leave to bond with their children.

The problem with making progress... is that you see just how far you actually have to go to reach your goals.
two steps forward, one step back would be an improvement sometimes.

[iverglas]

9. this here and that there

There really are huge differences between women's status in Europe/the UK and North America. Social democracy in Europe has provided women with many of the legs up that are needed if they are to have equal economic status through opportunities like education and employment -- child care, job protection, better employment conditions, health care, pensions, and other "social security" benefits -- but the formal and informal barriers to accessing those opportunities, and to improved social status, can be worse in Europe.

Just think, if the social democracy of Europe and the individualism of North America (specifically the rejection of stereotyping and ascribed roles) could be combined ... hey, you'd get Canada. ;) Nah -- we're still way behind on the social democracy, even though we look great when we compare ourselves to the immediate neighbours as we like to do.

But the acceptance of stereotypes in Europe is puzzling. All that "sexual freedom" on television and such, for instance -- it's really nothing but women's bodies and women being portrayed/treated as sex objects. There seems to be little analysis of how the benefits of social democracy won't do the trick without some change in social attitudes as well.

[comtec]

10. I know this is semi-off topic...

But I remember the first time I was called sir by a "kid" behind the counter I did a double take.
I felt like saying "dude, I'm hardly 5 years older than you". Of course now I'd say "and make it snappy sonny"

I wonder if we as people react to Sir/Ma'am as meaning we're older, perhaps established in the world.

I wasn't ready to be a "sir". I liked being a "kid" or just .. "dude", or mister or "hay asshole". I wanted to stay younger, under the radar, with the 'hip' group (not that I ever was I'm a geek after all)

I had a drill sergeant (rotc) once that used to joke "Don't 'sir' me... I work for a living"

I found 'um as neutral when I was working register. Yes 'um, of course 'um. I'm sorry about that scalding hot coffee, can I get you some ice for that?

[politicat]

11. I use Miss exclusively, but for me, it IS a feminist statement.

I'm married, but I use Miss on my correspondence, too (at least, until I get my doctorate, then I'll use Dr.)

Here's my rationale. When my partner married me, he didn't have to change his honorific. He's been Mister since the day he was born. Mister is the male default.

I have been Miss since the day I was born, so in my mind, Miss is the default. I didn't change my last name, so why should I change my honorific to Ms. (which besides being deliberately deceptive, sounds lazy, sloppy, and ill-educated to my ear) or Missus (the Missus Politicat being my grandmother, since my mother reverted to her maiden name after she booted my father)? Both Ms. (which obscures marital status) and Mrs. (which indicates status) indicate that my marital status is more important than the fact that I exist, since Miss is the birth default.

Thus, when I'm in a situation where I don't know someone's name, I use Miss. Honestly, I've never offended anyone and it sometimes tickles a senior -- and if it makes her day, great. Vanity is not anti-feminist.