I'm sick of seeing support for Roberts on DU--

[bliss_eternal]

I know it isn't personal, but it feels that way--as a woman, it feels like my rights are being sacrificed for political gain or to 'give him a chance, maybe he's changed.' Yeah--whatever.

I don't like this at all. I'm sick of seeing threads where people are saying maybe he isn't that bad, or maybe he is ok because he supported gay rights once in his career.

When did democracy become so blind? When did my rights become fodder for some platform to be sacrificed for the greater good of democracy?

Excuse me, I'm blathering on, and probably not making much sense...
:(

:grr:

[Eloriel]

1. Oh, it's personal, all right

In fact, I'll trot out one of my favorite quotes:

Women are repeatedly accused of taking things personally. I cannot see any other honest way of taking them. -- Marya Mannes

It's personal, all right.

Edited: I've about had it with DU. I don't know if that will result in anything -- it has, in the past, resulted in my being away for a long time. At the MOMENT, I'm considering not donating even to keep up my ability to participate in the Groups, I'm that disheartened and disenchanted. And I did mention that there's that other discussion board coming on line in the not too distant future....

So I just don't know. Maybe tomorrow I'll post about some of the things I've seen at DU in the past few days, and why it's totally unacceptable -- at least to me. Or maybe not. I'm tired, I'm ill, and I just don't know that DU is worth even that much of *my* time and energy.

[bliss_eternal]

2. I understand, Eloriel--and I am very sorry.

Really. :hug:

I came here because it was a place of solace at a time when the whole world seemed to be going completely insane, at least to me. Women were selling out other women, just to fit in to some 'ideal' of their perfect life.

I am still kind of stunned that after the Roberts nomination announcement I had an argument with another woman here on DU. She needed 'justification' from those of us that wanted to fight the nomination, how we wanted to do it, planned to do it, etc. It just seemed insane to me--still does.

I shouldn't have to do that here. I shouldn't have to explain why something as basic as a woman's right to not have to play reproductive russian roulette on DU--or at least that is how I feel. It isn't just about sexism though, I've seen similiar arguments over issues of race and sexuality. It gets old and I'm sure tiresome for those that fall into these categories as well.

Etc, etc., blah, blah, blah...(lol)

I am very sorry to hear that you are ill, and I sincerely hope you feel better soon. :hug: I would hate to not see you here anymore, but I understand your frustration. You do whatever you need to do to feel better, even if it means I don't get the privelege of your wisdom here on DU, anymore...

Thank you SO much for responding to my post. I've been feeling very alone this week. It's nice to not feel quite as alone...
:hi:

[Ripley]

4. I hear ya.

I've had my star for a while now and my renewal comes up in December. I'm seriously wondering why I should give DU even a penny when so much sexism is allowed "all in jest, girlie."

I guess I'll have to do a cost/benefit analysis when the time comes. I would hate to be locked out of this Group since there are so many good discussions. But even this Group has been disrupted to a certain extent and driven people away.

I really hate to say this. I do. Really, really, really. But I think a big part of the resurgence in blatant sexism/misogyny at DU and in America in general is the fault of some women. I am not a prude and am not saying women don't have a right to dress in any manner they choose, HOWEVER. There is a reason hookers dress in a certain way. They dress in that way in order to distinguish themselves from other women on the street/bar/whatever.

Since Porn has become mainstream in the last few years, lots of women actually try to immulate the clothing, hair, nails, make-up, actions of the Porn stars. The "make a killing off of women industries", i.e. the make-up, hair, clothing industries have shoved this down our throats. "Bed Head" hair products. Dental floss panties showing above your low-cut jeans. Etc.

Again, I hate to say this. But there comes a time when women have to take responsibility. If you dress and act like the porn girls do, go into a bar and get treated like a porn girl - what did you expect? Duh. Of course I'm not saying women should wear burkas. Of course I don't have a list (no fishnets ladies!:sarcasm:). It's all in common sense.

However, the main point is not about what women are wearing (which to me is really not all that much a free choice on their part anyway - they go with the latest trend/fad)....it's about women's words. When I hear young college women attacking the local feminist's as ugly fatties who can't get laid, I get really steamed. I'm not an ugly fattie and I get laid whenever I want. But it's not about me.

It's about women thinking they are liberated equals in America while they play right into the whims and desires of What Men Want. A perfect example of this is hearing people discuss breast implants recently. One man and 3 women (20-35 age range) and I were discussing a very young gal (17?) at the gym who came in one day with REALLY BIG IMPLANTS. They all got kind of mad at me when I asked why she would risk surgery for her boyfriend's porn fantasies. Each one said she did it for her own self esteem and if it made her feel better about herself she should do it.

What a crock.

[lukasahero]

5. And what does it say about a woman's self-esteem if it all boils down to

the size of her boobs? Is that what self-esteem should be based on? Doesn't anyone else see the irony that she has based her self-esteem on a man's perception of her quality of her body? What happened to the "self" in that self-esteem?

(Hi Rip - Just popped in this morning but heading back out to the garden soon - much more peace of mind there. :))

(Hi Eloriel - Hope you're feeling better soon. :hug:)

(Hi everybody else - thanks for keeping this group going when so many of us are ready to give up. :hi:)

[Ripley]

6. And just where do you think You are going?

You are not allowed to give up!

Geesh, I woke up in a good mood today but went off on a jag! :rant:

I went out to the garden for awhile, but since it is basically like working in Satan's workshop out there today, I changed my mind.

Sorry bliss and Eloriel, I didn't mean to hijack the thread. It just came up and out. :blush:

[bliss_eternal]

8. Ripley--you didn't hijack the thread at all--

:hi:

It's a great conversation and I'm happy to read all of your thoughts on this!

I actually woke up kinda' down in the dumps, as I've been for days now. Guess what perked me up? Seeing women in my city (quite coincidentally in fact) protesting to SAVE ROE! I got SO excited to see that!!! :bounce: Totally made my day!!

I think that means there is something really wrong with me. :think:
:( :eyes:

(sigh)

[Ripley]

9. I am in a no-win argument situation...

now. ACK.

[Ripley]

11. Ignore the above post.

It has nothing to do with this thread. Sorry.

[bliss_eternal]

10. In this month's Glamour, I found an interesting

piece about a woman, Ariel Levy that was disturbed by this new 'porn chic' trend.She wrote a book entitled,'Female Chauvinist Pigs:Women and the rise of Raunch Culture.'

She says,'Strippers and porn stars are our new role models--and that's not a good thing.' Apparently when her girlfriends started talking about going to strip clubs as if that were just another way to spend Friday night,she feared something was wrong with the concept of female empowerment.

I've been asking people for some time, when did it become socially acceptable to work in a strip club or in adult films. Not necessarily because I am condemning people in this line of work, but I just recall that there was a time when it wasn't thought of as acceptable. Now it's all the rage. I've wondered if it was fair to attribute it to the Howard Stern show or not. lol.

I've got nothing against women that choose to work in that field, but I do have a problem with young girls and women thinking that the rest of us have to emulate them in order to be deemed attractive, sexy, etc.

I don't like the way clothing manufacturers have started printing comments across the butt area of sweat pants and shorts for girls and women. Excuse me, but I don't want to see a little girl in shorts that say 'juicy' across the seat. Thank you.

[Hello_Kitty]

12. Dressing like a porn star

I went through a phase of doing that a few years ago. :blush:

I'd lost some weight and liked the way my body looked so I adopted the fashion of the moment (which is still pretty much the fashion now) of low slung pants or short skirts and tiny shirts. I sure got a lot of attention from guys but I wasn't entirely comfortable with it. I was always viewed in a sexual context whenever I was out, even if I wasn't feeling particularly sexual at the time. And I think that's because, unfortunately, we continue to be perceived as sex objects and our sexuality is relegated to our visibility - If you LOOK sexy, then you are sexual and are ready for sex. It doesn't matter what you actually want. The priority for women is to be wanted.

And you are right, Ripley, that this is partly the fault of women. We allow this to be done to us. Can you imagine men (straight ones anyway) wearing clothing anywhere near as revealing as what a lot of women wear? Sure, men in Europe wear Speedo style swimtrunks on the beach but on the streets they wear clothes that cover them up and are loose and comfortable.

I don't think any woman deserves to be harassed or treated poorly because of the way she dresses and I certainly don't advocate extremely modest clothing. I also don't dress like a schoolmarm, though I have definitely toned down the "sexy" attire quite a bit. I dress in a way that I think is attractive, expresses my personality, and is comfortable. The only problem now is trying to find suitable clothing where the choices seem to be between the extremes of "teenage hootchie" or "church lady".

[bliss_eternal]

13. Don't feel bad, cbombs--

there aren't a great many choices in clothing for women right now. All the stores tend to offer a lot of the same things. You can't beat yourself up for wearing what was available and feeling proud of the body you worked hard to obtain.

When you got negative attention, you adjusted as you saw fit.
Personally, I don't look poorly on all women that dress this way. I just wish that clothing manufacturers weren't so influenced by celebrity, popular culture, etc. and just made clothes that are flattering and functional for women.

I have to be very creative with what's out there right now to be fashionable, yet comfortable and not look like a 'boy toy doll'...lol!

There's got to be a happy medium between 'teen hottie/hootchie mama' and 'school marm/church lady.'

[Ripley]

14. I didn't mean to say I solely blame women for dressing like that.

Obviously clothes racks, TV, Music videos, movies, magazines (mens and women's) and trends affect how people dress.

I'm not trying to be the school marm fashion patrol. But I think everyone can identify when someone is dressed and looks sexy as opposed to someone dressed up in a manner that people at the party mistake her for a hooker. Well, maybe not today since it is so prevalent.

I just find it ridiculous that young women and even very young girls are encouraged to dress "hootchie mama" because Women's Lib gave them the right to burn their bra and wear go-go boots and miniskirts and eventually to wear whatever - anything goes!

Like I said, common sense. If I were in a Goth band and I had 32 piercings on my face (tongue, lips, nose, eyebrows), wore white pancake make-up and had my dentist sharpen my incisors to points...do you think I would not be automatically judged by my appearance? Of course I would. I'm not saying I shouldn't be able to dress Goth. I'm saying the bank probably won't hire me as a bank teller. The neighbors probably won't mistake me for the new Christian Little League coach. One's appearance does have consequences, fair or not.

It's one thing to dress in revealing, skin-tight clothes because you are proud of your body as cbombs did. But to expect in our hyper-sexualized world (and yet oddly hyper-prurient at the same time) that if you dress like a typical porn star - that you won't be leered at, or even approached by men is just not common sense. Of course, I can blame dirty old men and horny young guys for their approaching you in an inappropriate manner. However the reality of life is that they will.

In no way shape or form am I saying a woman deserves to be harassed or raped because of the way she dresses!!! Of course not! I guess I agree with someone else who said "when did hoochie mama" become the norm? Is this really what the women's movement was about? For us to be lawyers and judges, but dress and act like a generic porn star when we head to the business lunch or dinner party?

[bliss_eternal]

16. I think I understood what you were getting at...

I wasn't implying these were specifically 'your opinions' if it seemed that I was. I hope it didn't, I'm sorry if I did. :hi:

I was more speaking in general terms of feminist culture, societal concerns, pressures, etc.

I'm very much on the same page as you, at least I think I am. LOL!

I'm very much enjoying the thoughts expressed on this thread. I've wondered for some time how other women have felt about a lot of this. It's so cool to be able to find out, from such intelligent, pro-woman-women. (hope that makes sense...)

[Ripley]

17. Okay.

I guess I just blurted it out and it really has nothing to do with the OP, so sorry about that!

[bliss_eternal]

18. No worries, my friend!

:pals:

:hi:

I think this is just a subject, that as women that care about women and our collective issues--we are all just passionate about this. Which is as far as I'm concerned, a very good thing! I'm thrilled to talk with others that care about these things.

Sometimes when I bring this stuff up in the world away from here, I see women's eye's glaze over. Or they just 'mmm hmmm' me, as if to say, 'yeah, right whatever...' It's disheartening. Sometimes I feel I care more about the issues that affect these women, than they care for themselves--but that's another discussion for another day (sigh). LOL!

Anyway, just to sum up--I'm pleased to see such passion expressed!

Thanks to everyone for responding!

[jmm]

3. The last time I felt this disappointed with people

I was arguing with a guy who wanted to go to war a couple of years ago because it cost too much to fill up his SUV.

I'm not willing to gamble with my rights to test political theories and just because I don't trust Bush to pick a good appointee doesn't mean I have to sit back pretend like I'm happy.

[bliss_eternal]

7. Exactly--and thank you for saying it!

Why the hell should we just sit back and accept this fascist, intolerant, sexist, trying to take us all back to the dark ages, power hungry jerk?!

[spooky3]

15. I'm still hoping that the hearings will provide more info

and then people will have more of a basis for reacting to Roberts. I'd like to think that a lot of people are simply not saying anything right now because they first want to hear the answers to the questions.

[wildflower]

19. I've been very bothered by the Democratic reaction to Roberts

across the board, including on Air America. (And of course the general attitude of Republicans too; there is that quote from Meet the Press (?), for example, about how a democracy in Iraq without women's rights wouldn't be so bad.)

It feels like women's rights are slipping away again, in every quarter.

I want to see the peace movement flourish; to see all liberal movements flourish. But not at the expense of women's rights.

Unfortunately, this isn't new; back in the 60's, women working together with men within various movements, including the civil rights movement, experienced discrimination and dismissal of their own rights. There was a good essay by Andrea Dworkin on this I can remember reading once years ago. (I felt it was a good exposition, whether or not you agree with all of Dworkin's positions.)

Anyway, I'm sorry, I've wandered off your topic. I just wanted to let you know you're definitely not alone!

-wildflower

[redqueen]

20. I'd love to have that Meet the Press quote.

So many men all over the world are so desperate to keep us in check.

[wildflower]

21. Found it...it was said by Reuel Marc Gerecht of American Enterprise Inst.

EDIT: I found the full transcript (bold emphasis is mine):

MR. GERECHT: Actually, I'm not terribly worried about this. I mean, one hopes that the Iraqis protect women's social rights as much as possible. It certainly seems clear that in protecting the political rights, there's no discussion of women not having the right to vote. I think it's important to remember that in the year 1900, for example, in the United States, it was a democracy then. In 1900, women did not have the right to vote. If Iraqis could develop a democracy that resembled America in the 1900s, I think we'd all be thrilled. I mean, women's social rights are not critical to the evolution of democracy. We hope they're there. I think they will be there. But I think we need to put this into perspective.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8926876/

It's also at Emily's List, on the bottom righthand side of the page, in the yellow box: http://www.emilyslist.org/

[Southpaw Bookworm]

22. Excuse me, I think my head just exploded

:nuke:

[redqueen]

23. Thanks very much.

:grr:

[bliss_eternal]

24. Thank you, wildflower! It's nice to know I'm not alone...

It's hard sometimes, you know? Particularly when the place you go for support (DU) is sometimes all but supportive. I'm so glad I have a place here among other understanding women.

[wildflower]

27. I know. And now Rehnquist...

Maybe I'll start a new thread on that.

I can't believe this is happening.

But as we have seen, women can be and are a force for change.

wildflower

[ismnotwasm]

25. He's completely unqualified

Racist, misogynist comments aside. I think Auntie Pinko's article summed it up nicely. He's going to to get confirmed more than likely but not with MY say so. I don't have to approve, like, give in, have a "that's better than some" attitude, none of that shit. And I'm not going to. I plan on writing letters and emailing until the day barring some miracle they swear his unqualified ass in.

[bliss_eternal]

26. Good for YOU--So glad to hear it!

Always happy to hear that people plan to fight!