Repeal of Estate Tax Funded by 18 Super Wealth Families

[Montagnard]

With a net worth of over $ 185 billion, their decade long effort if successful would result in a $ 71 billion savings for them.


http://www.citizen.org/documents/EstateTaxFinal.pdf

[stepnw1f]

1. Do People Need All That Money?

WTF?! These people are sick.... sorry, but this is the definition of greed. It's never enough...

[Warpy]

11. They're mostly new money, too

like the despicable Wally World heirs.

Old money has gotten around the inheritance tax by starting charitable foundations to be headed by their heirs, who then draw a fat salary from them. It's a win-win situation, some of the money does get back out into the world where it can do some good and the heirs are gainfully employed and well taken care of.

I honestly don't think any heir needs to inherit that kind of money. It can be a terrible burden for many who lack strong internal reserves. Freed from the necessity of interacting with the world in a productive manner, many end up destroying themselves.

Also, much of the funding of charities comes from legacies used to dodge the tax man. This will be a disaster from everybody from the United Way to PBS to churches.

The naked greed of people like the Bushes, the Waltons, and a few other rich families is disgusting.

[cali]

2. In all fairness

some of the people fighting hardest to retain the Estate tax are also the super wealthy and the plain old wealthy. Bill Gates Sr. and the heir to the Oscar Meyer fortune have long been speaking out and organizing to keep the estate tax.

[Kingshakabobo]

6. Do they spend hundreds of millions of their own money to start...

...astroturf grass-roots organizations to lobby congress?

[cali]

20. It's a vigorous organization

I have no idea how much of their own money they've spent, but it's not only Gates Sr, but his son, Warren Buffet, various Rockefellers, Chuck Collins and many more. Here's the link to the website, which is kept regularly updated:

http://www.responsiblewealth.org/

[brentspeak]

32. Yes, thanks for pointing that out

Some people are overly knee-jerk when they hear that so-and-so are rich. Yes, probably at least 40-50% of the rich are no-good S.O.B's (or at least garden-variety S.O.B's); but there's a large percentage of the wealthy who ARE decent Americans. Like, just as a fer instance, as you point out, Bill Gates, Sr., and the others in his group who don't want the estate tax repealed.

[acmejack]

3. Somehow, when I tell the cretins, er, citizens about this fact

They don't really seem to care. Maybe it is only because I am laboring in Texas. But it sure as hell feels like I am beating my head against a brick wall at least half of the time. You know, trying to help people who have no desire to be helped. I am very sure I would be happier and healthier if I simply gave it all up and went about my life and became just another happy idiot.

But greedy people like this inspire me to continue to do my thing.

[TheFarseer]

4. Here's what people don't realize

The Federal estate tax will not touch you unless you are the Hilton family or something. The state estate tax is what will get farmers and possibly semi-rich like doctors etc. People are too dumb to look into things like that. They just blame whatever Sean Insanitty tells them to blame. and I am talking about middle class/working class people who have NO reason to worry about the federal estate tax not the 18 mega-greedy people you are talking about.

[BlueEyedSon]

5. People are not dumb, they are subjected to propaganda (vs info)

[atreides1]

7. But

Refusing to look beyond the propaganda and the talking points, does make them dumb.

[BlueEyedSon]

10. The average person has not the time or resources

like us 18-hr-a-day DUers

[Atman]

13. I'm sorry, Americans are DUMB as a box of hammers

I hate to say it, but the more I see, the more people I meet, the more I realize that we are, as a people, a bunch of fucking idiots. We'll believe any happytalk the government tells us. The number of people who still believe the Saddam/WMD bullshit is a good starting point. The list of examples is virtually endless...we've been raised to be dumb and un-inquisitive, moreso the farther you go from the coasts. It's either profound dumbness, or profound intellectual laziness, which is pretty dumb in and of itself.

[BlueEyedSon]

19. But seriously who shoves (or shoved) the Saddam/WMD connection

down the public's throat 24x7?

The SYSTEM is broken. There is no independent investigative news media. The corporations own the government and the broadcasters, etc

[Atman]

8. $71 Billion dollars that won't fund education, buy armor for troops,

assure health care for the sick, take care of our veterans, feed the hungry, repair our infrastructure...


They must be so proud of their accomplishment. We'll be sure to storm their castles first when the revolution comes.

[Binka]

14. I Am Working To Stop This Travesty And I Stand To Inherit A LOT Of $$$

I will PROUDLY pay my fair share of taxes on my fathers bequeathed money. It is a honor to be able to do so! These fucking rich cock suckers make me sick. Kick down on your fucking inheritance you bastards DO YOU KNOW HOW FUCKING LUCKY YOU ARE TO HAVE THAT LUXURY!

[Atman]

27. Good on ya!

Isn't it amazing the amount of wealth all these super-super wealthy families were able to amass even while living under the burden of 90% tax rates of the past? They built mansions, giant companies, funded museums. But now, they piss and moan about having to pay a tax on money they had no hand in making in the first place. How did those poor Carnegies and Mellons and Kennedys et al survive, the poor, poor dears? Oh, the crushing burden of having to pay tax to a system that is totally rigged in your favor in the first place, at the same time you're making interest on your holding faster than you can possibly spend it, and almost always earning more in a few days than the average American makes in a year! Awww.

I like your style! You seem to understand the whole concept of a "society" and "community" and realize that you are in a very special position most Americans would kill to be in!

[slackmaster]

9. My mom is in favor of repealing the Estate Tax as well

She's no billionaire, not by a long shot. She, and my late stepfather, worked hard all their lives to save a nest egg that she could pass on to five children and their families.

The cited report is a non-story; it makes perfect sense that at least some of the ultra-wealthy would work to preserve their personal interests, but that's not the whole picture. The ET made sense when it was first enacted, but it wasn't indexed for inflation. It's affecting classes of people far less wealthy than the handful of tycoons it was originally designed to address.

I agree with the reasons the report cites for having AN estate tax on the wealthiest Americans - Raising revenue, encouraging charity, and preventing excessive concentrations of wealth. The one we have in place (referring to the one that will come back into effect in 2011) is flawed.

[Bridget Burke]

12. Please explain the "flaws" in the Estate Tax that will come back....

Will any of those flaws reduce your inheritance?

[slackmaster]

18. The Hiltons should pay it, my family should not

If my mom died this year, in which the exemption is 2 million, there would be no federal tax on her estate.

If she dies in 2011, when the old rules go back into effect, we'd lose some money. That is not right. We are not robber barons or tycoons. We inherited close to nothing from my grandparents' generation. We are a working class family who earned everything we have. We have families to take care of, and housing costs alone are breaking the backs of the Baby Boomers' kids.

Any kind of wealth tax MUST be indexed for inflation, otherwise it ends up hitting people it was not intended to tax.

The same problem apples to the Alternative Minimum Tax.

[cali]

22. This is so easily resolved.

Simply raise the amount to 2 million or so per person that can be left tax free. For a couple that means that they can leave their heirs 4 million before taxation kicks in. But you must know, that there are various means of getting around the estate tax, and they've been used by people of wealth for years.

[slackmaster]

23. You can't just set it at an arbitrary number and leave it there

Start with 2 million now, then index it every year based on real, measured inflation.

[cali]

25. No. You don't have to index it and

2 million is just a number. Make it 3 or 4. It doesn't really matter. But it's not only Hilton's who should be taxed. What about those worth 10 million or 25 million. Why shouldn't they bear some tax burden as well?

[slackmaster]

30. The tax becomes REgressive if it's not indexed for inflation

Eventually everyone who has any assets at all will end up liable for estate tax. The logic and the math are cold, hard facts.

[brentspeak]

33. Your slippery-slope argument doesn't hold

The estate tax limit has been several times raised already, not lowered. In fact, the adjustments have been sufficiently raised enough that five years ago, when the GOP was hunting for farmers who they could parade in front of the cameras to say "This family farmer is being destroyed by the estate tax", not one family farmer could be located who was subject to the estate tax. The GOP had to settle for getting somebody who owned a corporate farm to drive up the Capitol Hill steps with his tractor as a P.R. stunt.

There might be something to adjusting the estate for inflation, but the fact that some of the richest individuals in America DON'T want the tax repealed suggests that (mostly) GOP lawmakers' cries about "unfairness" and "stealing from the rich" have no merit whatsoever.

[slackmaster]

35. All I have asked for, repeatedly, is an adjustment for inflation

Thank you for agreeing that there might be something to it. :eyes:

In fact, the adjustments have been sufficiently raised enough that five years ago, when the GOP was hunting for farmers who they could parade in front of the cameras to say "This family farmer is being destroyed by the estate tax", not one family farmer could be located who was subject to the estate tax.

But unless something is done within the next five years, the exemption will go back down to $1 million, as it was in 2001, and stay that way indefinitely. $1 million in 2011 dollars won't buy what it did when the temporary reforms were put into place; it's a simple mathematical fact that more families in the middle class will be affected by it unless we have a round of deflation or the law gets fixed.

I've seen almost a half million dollar increase in the value of my home in the last 11 years. During that time I've made a few modest improvements, the neighborhood is becoming gentified; but it's still the same size, same quality, and a little older. Anyone I pass it on to will have to treat that as an asset for estate tax purposes, plus will be stuck with a substantially higher annual property tax bill than I pay (thanks to Proposition 13). They may have to come up with cash by liquidating assets in order to pay the estate tax, kind of like those people Oprah Winfrey gave new cars to. It's nice to have the equity, but that's not how I had planned my financial future when I bought the place. My mom has a similar situation with her house. She bought it to live in as I did mine, but the unexpected ratcheting up of the housing market puts us both in an uncomfortable position in regards to estate planning. Neither my mom nor I believe the government is better qualified to control our money than we or our heirs are. They're going to have bills to pay, kids to put through college, medical expenses, and ultimately their own end-of-life costs.

...the fact that some of the richest individuals in America DON'T want the tax repealed suggests that (mostly) GOP lawmakers' cries about "unfairness" and "stealing from the rich" have no merit whatsoever.

No, that fact that people like Bill Gates don't want it repealed means that some of the wealthiest Americans see beyond their own greed and recognize value in the limited redistribution of wealth that the Estate Tax provides. It's also pretty obvious that making life too easy for your heirs doesn't provide the best pathway to responsible adult behavior - too many of them end up being embarrassments like Michael Skakel or Paris Hilton.

[Atman]

17. You need to study the Estate Tax more

You're basically wrong even on the limited amount of information in your post. The Estate Tax will never, ever effect you or your family. Not even if you win Powerball. The GOP called it "the Death Tax" because it sounded scary, and pretty obvious...why tax us for dying? But it has nothing to do with that. Part of the genesis of it was also to prevent exactly what is happening now, the rise of an oligarchy, a privileged class of a very few, with too much power. We've lost site of that. Now, we say that you should be entitled to have all the money, keep it in your family, and protect it from the government. WHY? Anybody with that much money either made it with the help of our system (NOT our "government" per se, rather, our capitalist system), or it was handed to them upon the death of someone else. The super-super rich do not like to think of themselves as part of a "community," that is somehow beneath them. But you can be damned sure they'll be the first one calling for the military to protect their millions should we be invaded, they want the roads to their mansions maintained, they want all the benefits of our society, but think that brilliant accountants and clever access to the lawmaking process gives them some inalienable right to opt-out of supporting that system that enabled them to amass such obscene wealth.

[slackmaster]

21. I'm familiar with the numbers, see reply #18

The ET was enacted in 1916 to keep people like the Carnegies from getting too much wealth and power, and to raise revenue.

It has never been indexed for inflation.

[Atman]

26. From Wiki

Exemptions and tax rates

...a certain amount of each estate is exempted from taxation
by the federal government. Below is a table of the amount of
exemption by year an estate would expect. Estates above these
amounts would be subject to estate tax, but only for the
amount above the exemption.

For example, assume an estate of $3.5 million in 2005. There
are two beneficiaries who will each receive equal shares of
the estate. The maximum allowable credit is $1.5 million for
that year, so the taxable value is therefore $2 million. Since
it is 2005, the tax rate on that $2 million is 47%, so the
total taxes paid would be $940,000. Each beneficiary will
receive $750,000 of untaxed inheritance and $530,000 from the
taxable portion of their inheritance for a total of
$1,280,000. This means that they would have paid (or, more
precisely, the estate would have paid) a taxable rate of
26.9%.
 	
	

Year    Max. Estate     Marginal
        Tax Credit      Tax Rate
 
2002 	$1 million 	50% 	
	
2003 	$1 million 	49% 	
	
2004 	$1.5 million 	48% 	
	
2005 	$1.5 million 	47% 	
	
2006 	$2 million 	46% 	
	
2007 	$2 million 	45% 	
	
2008 	$2 million 	45% 	
	
2009 	$3.5 million 	45% 	
	
2010 	repealed N/A 	
	
2011 	reinstated at 2002 level 	N/A 	



====


An effective taxable rate of 26.9%. Cry me a river. I should
have such problems!

[slackmaster]

29. Estate Tax is not supposed to target the middle class AT ALL

An effective taxable rate of 26.9%. Cry me a river. I should have such problems!

I'd bet a pint of Guinness Stout you'd feel differently about it if your family was facing a similar situation.

:beer:

[Atman]

31. Actually, I'm a trust fund brat myself.

Or at least, used to be. I took my inheritence and started a publishing company when I was 22. It wasn't millions, but it did suck to see ANY of it go to the government. But that doesn't mean I was/am unable to understand why it does. It was my DAD'S money, not mine. He worked for it, and still left me okay. Of course, I wish I had been better able to make it grow so MY kids could have such problems, but hey, I'm far from done yet! LOL!

[RB TexLa]

15. I think the estate tax is morally wrong

I just find it wrong to tax money that has already been taxed as it was earned. It should be permanently repealed, whatever revenue is lost replace it with income tax. I'm really not concerned with who it does or doesn't hit. It is no more right to tax a $100M estate than it is to tax a $100 estate. Whatever I have have worked for, saved and plan to pass on to a family member, university, charity or whoever should be passed on to them.

[Kingshakabobo]

24. Oh bullshit! Money is double taxed ALL THE TIME.

Any time money changes hands it is taxed. If I earn a pay-check from a corporation that received revenue from "already taxed" funds, is that double taxation? If I win state lottery(closer analogy to this issue)funds that were derived from already taxed funds, is that double taxation?

Why should all MY income be taxed and some son of a billionaire not pay tax on THEIR income. Why should EARNED income be subject to tax when non-earned money gets off the hook?

[brentspeak]

34. Oh, good grief

Do you realize the great percentage of megamillions accumulated by the super-rich that are routinely and expertly protected from the taxman in the first place? Why do you think the uber-rich go through such trouble assembling elaborate trusts, tax-free offshore havens (or even tax-free offshore trusts), income-tax free life insurance policies, etc.?

"It should be permanently repealed, whatever revenue is lost replace it with income tax."

That doesn't make any sense; what kind of income does someone who inherits $100 million normally earn?

[DiverDave]

16. Joe sixpack doesn't want it repealed because

in his addled brain,someday, HE is gonna be wealthy enough to benefit from it.
(strike the loony tunes end music) th,th,th,thats all ffffolks...

[Kansas Wyatt]

28. That's it, they are on the target list

To immediately turn over their net worth to pay down all of the Republican Debt. Since they have been so successful, they won't have any problem starting over and making it back. Heck, they can even prove that 'pull yourselves up by the bootstraps' theory.

[leesa]

36. The cockroaches come out of hiding. These families are probably the chief

enemies of our welfare. They will sacrifice anything to maximize their wealth. They are addicted to money and power.