A hard lesson was learned today - but some good news as well

[DancingBear]

It's obvious now - the story was wrong, the sources phony or deliberately misleading, the "updates" nothing but cruel hoaxes.

Many of us knew - many more wanted so badly to believe that they suspended their abilities to think critically and bought into what they wanted to happen rather than what really was.

He walked. We kept saying "IF" he gets indicted, but that qualifier somehow got lost in the mail. I thought they would get him, but with each passing day and with each passing sad grasp at the hopelessly tarnished brass ring I thought more and more that it would come to this. From the beginning, it walked like a duck, and it talked like a duck. I and countless others so wanted it to be a swan, but it could never be.

We'll find many TruthOut "supporters" gone today, their clandestine work of painting DU as a haven for conspiracy addicts done. But we will also find many heartbroken, for they truly believed, up until today, that somehow somewhere it would turn out to be right, and that the graceful beauty of the swan would win out. How sad, then, that all we hear now is the quacking.

The lesson learned was a hard one, but it is this: stop hanging your hats on the moon and looking for gold dust where it doesn't exist. Stop looking at manufactured idols for answers and instead question everything that comes before you, no matter who brings it forth. Quoting Mr. Zimmerman -"don't go mistaking paradise for that home across the road." Do not jump without first seeing if you are standing on a cliff, and make sure your leaders can walk the walk, not just talk the talk. Rabble rousing is nice, but it don't feed the bulldog.

Most importantly, though, I leave you this.

Do. Not. Give. Up.

This investigation is NOT over. Not by a long shot. It is a slow process, but the rewards will be sweet if you allow yourselves the time to taste them.

They are evil - all of them - and they are very very good at it. It will take a long time to get them - too long in the minds of many - but gotten they will be.

Stay the course, everyone. Stay the slow, steady, maddening, almost unbearable course.

And when the fools gold comes, just walk away.

Peace.

[Swamp Rat]

1. kick and recommended n/t

[hippiechick]

2. Well said.

"Stop looking at manufactured idols for answers and instead question everything that comes before you, no matter who brings it forth."


:applause:

[LaurenG]

3. ...

:thumbsup:

[AndyA]

4. It is very important to remember that this investigation is far from over.

The fact that Rove testified as many times as he did means something. Perhaps he cut a deal, who knows. It's all just pure speculation at this point, but I'd rather see Cheney and Bush go down for their dirty deeds, because the rest will go down with them.

We all know Rove is evil, and he is up to his bald scalp in dirty deeds. I believe they will eventually catch up to him.

When we look back at history, there have been so many evil groups that sought to do harm to the world. No matter how powerful they became, they were all taken down. It will happen again. We must be patient. Our day is coming.

[foreverdem]

5. Thanks, DancingBear

"Stop looking at manufactured idols for answers and instead question everything that comes before you, no matter who brings it forth."

So true. It's still up to us. It always was.

[Canuckistanian]

6. K&R

C'mon, let's not go nuts over this. There are bigger Crashcarts to fry.

[MuseRider]

7. Thanks DB.

NGU

My first thought was that Rove squealed like a pig. Dunno, I tried to stay out of this but my first thought about Rove was that if he was ever truly cornered he would rat them all out. :shrug: It is going to take a long time as deep as this is.

NGU

[bunny planet]

10. I thought that too MuseRider.

But then I had another thought, even if Rove did not flip on Cheney or someone else, the possibility that he may have will make for some interesting interactions with Cheney and his cabal anyway. They might assume he has flipped, and there might be some more 'eat their own' entertainment and inside the WH retribution for the little turdblossom stool pigeon.

[Strong Atheist]

8. K&R. It was a nice dream. I was suspicious early on, but did not

comment till MUCH later... we need to be skeptical of OUR sources, as well as the enemey's sources of news ... personally, I do not hold Truthout at blame for bad reporting, just Leopold... Truthout was merely loyal (mistakenly) to a shoddy "reporter"...

[DancingBear]

11. I have to hold them all accountable

Both Ash and Pitt verified the sources - sometimes vehemently.

Each holds the blame in their own hands.

[Lochloosa]

9. Do. Not. Give. Up. Never have and Never will!

:toast:

[Catherine Vincent]

12. I would have preferred to hear it from Fitz instead of Luskin, though.

[ContraBass Black]

13. I would think that the repeated arguments indicate

That most here aren't learning anything.

[DancingBear]

14. There is still time

This was tough on many folks.

I am hopeful that hindsight will give folks the tools they need to move forward with a newly found (or rediscovered) critical eye.

Sometimes arguments turn out to be nothing more than necessary discussions at full volume. :)

[ContraBass Black]

15. I'm not hopeful.

Hindsight hasn't done much for us yet. I don't see a reason for that to change.

[AuntiBush]

46. It was a Major Wake-Up Call for Me!

Critical thinking is on full-time from here on out.

I'll believe it when I see it from here on out. But don't victimize those of us that believed in whom we trust and/or trusted anymore then to blame all the messengers. Even they get duped, too, so...

[IsIt1984Yet]

16. Well said!

:applause:

[Kurovski]

17. K&R

Good perspective, and thank you for posting.

[lancdem]

18. Wonderful post!

You said it very well.

[OzarkDem]

19. No its not obvious

and I'm staying the course.

[DancingBear]

22. Iceberg ahead

Just giving fair warning.

Plot your course as you see fit.

[MiniMe]

20. Is it possible that Rove cut a deal to out Cheney?

That was one of my thoughts. Fitz hsn't said that the investigation is over, and I am pretty sure that he has enough evidence against Rove, and the office isn't commenting now on Luskin's statements. I'm betting on Fitz in this, and I think he is too strait and narrow to bow to pressure. So, if he has enough evidence to at least indict on obstruction and perjury, why isn't he trying to indict? The only reason I can think of is that he is turning in somebody that is higher up.

I probably need a tinfoil hat here, but then many of our tinfoil hat theories have proved to be true lately.

[kpete]

21. Bottom line for me: it’s not over until Fitzgerald says it is over.

Thanks DancingBear

[DancingBear]

23. It's not over kpete

As long as we always keep a critical eye, it's not over.

We just need to know where to look, and when to turn away.

I think as tough as this whole thing was, it was a very good start.

Oh, and you're welcome. :)

[liberalla]

49. "it’s not over until Fitzgerald says it is over."

That's how I feel. I would like to hear what Fitz says next...

[KittyWampus]

24. You do NOT know the "story was wrong" nor that Rove'll ultimately "walk".

Rove may have been indicted when Leopold reported so, and Rove may have then agreed to cooperate.

Rove may end up having to testify in court... thus proving he was party to the leak.

Rove may end up on the wrong side of a civil suit.

Really, your post simply doesn't take into account quite a few possiblities.

[DancingBear]

25. See "12th, May"

I'm just not going to go into it again.

You believe what you believe.

[Warren DeMontague]

33. What part of the word "wrong" don't you understand?

Sometimes people are wrong. Wrong about reality. Sometimes reality comes up and laughingly smacks them on the rump. They can hem and haw and try to move the goalposts, but they're still wrong. The people who claim the Earth is 6,000 years old are WRONG. The Catholic Church vs. Galileo? The Church was WRONG. The folks hawking intelligent design in public schools--- yep, they are WRONG, too.

Likewise, the Truthout Story was WRONG. Attacking the people who point out unpleasant facts (all too common a pastime for some) won't change it. Best thing for all involved to do is own up to journalistically screwing the pooch and move on, but we probably won't see that. Instead, it will be the fault of the people who questioned the story.

Again.

[Seabiscuit]

26. Bravo, DancingBear! Well said! n/t

[joeunderdog]

27. With all due respect, this is hyperbole.

Truthout took a position on a huge story and did so for all the right reasons. To this point in time, they haven't been proven wrong or that they are the opium of the masses. What they have done in the past--that we know for SURE--is take a stand that the WMD story manufactured by MSM was never on solid ground. Thank God they were brave enough to publish their doubts for us to read. They did this in the face of huge public pressure. And when thousands of media outlets were wrong on that story, those outlets were not found to be summarily dismissed by the same people doing it here. One article, even if it is wrong, does not discredit the source as long as they have done due diligence, have no hidden motives and have gone to the proper lengths to check things out.

Know your enemies. Truthout ain't on.

[Divernan]

28. Your OP shows a lot more class than that crew of True Believers

noticeably absent from the boards today. You know, those posters responding to anyone who disagreed with their idols, "You're just soooo jealous!" and "I'm taking screenshots of what you wrote" and "I'm going to call you out" or the ever popular "Get ready to eat crow!" It was like being back in junior high! And they were also very quick to punch the alert button on anyone who questioned their hero worship.

DU has been a political lifeline for me for years, but this whole Truthout episode has been a low point. We have such a hard road ahead of us between now and November. Let's not get sidetracked into a cult of personality. Fool DUers once, shame on you; fool us a second time, shame on us.

[Turn CO Blue]

29. Whom did you mean as the manufactured "idol"? Not Fitz, I hope.

[DancingBear]

30. No, most definitely not

That man is real, whether we like the outcome or not.

I'll leave it to you to figure out the "idols" part. :)

[Turn CO Blue]

31. Okay then. 'Cuz I idolize work ethic and intelligence

and Fitz has those by the tankerload.

[rucky]

32. I bet it was right at the time it was reported.

Then Rove suppled the NYT page w/ Cheney's notes as part of a deal.

[Wrinkle_In_Time]

34. An excellent post, DancingBear! It's too soon for the lesson

to sink in for some people and there will always be the hard-core faithful. I still see a lot of people using the moon as a hat-rack in the posts on this today, but I expect this will improves over time. Denial and post-rationalization are very powerful mental processes.

Once again, thanks for that post.

[Time for change]

35. I find it interesting that Fitzgerald would not comment

Does anyone understand why he would not comment on this if the story was true?

Or why he would not comment on it if the story was false?

[Catherine Vincent]

36. No. I will never understand that man.

But he's still dreamy though.:)

[1620rock]

37. Hmm, I donno...these fuckers are above the law it seems. n/t

[Time for change]

48. Here's a good thought:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1422416

[robbedvoter]

38. Do not give up? How did you get this from "NO JUSTICE"?

and where did you get the "deliberate" lies?
What BS!

[DancingBear]

39. Thanks for the input

I'll file it away in the appropriate place.

Have a good evening.

[johnnie]

40. Good post

And also let's not forget the other end of the spectrum.

I hope that many people learned to not attack and belittle other people who don't understand as much as you (not you specifically DancingBear)do. Just because you say it is so, doesn't mean it is. People questioned the people who questioned the story and were laughed at, made fun of and had nasty comments made toward them.

I'm not talking about the people who attacked the non-believers, I am talking about the group of people who showed up in *every* Leopold thread (almost all at the same time coincidently) and teamed up on people who were asking legitimate questions.

So to add to your post I just wanted to say that I hoped people here have also learned to not let other people intimidate you here. Don't fight the bullies and learn to use your ignore feature if you must. I for one lost respect for many people here in the last month, not that they probably care because they aren't here for respect, they are here to do exactly what they did.

And for the record, I didn't support either side of the story. I only got frustrated at seeing the way other people were treating each other here on both sides of the issue.

I am also afraid that we have lost some of the more insightful and contributing people of DU and that saddens me. But at least there are other places to find their work.

[bridgit]

41. you got it, there can be no rush to print, no rush to judgment, no rush...

to believe sight unseen; were we not the one's that thought it once said "we won't get fooled again, and again, and again, and again...and again...", no getting fooled then one more time without it there is pie-eyed, moonlit disbelief imo

the 'what if' game is what kept the presses rolling during all the clinton non-sense, i for one have had enough. sadly, the game is now more serious than before

k&r :kick: :patriot:

[Laurab]

42. I'm a Truthout supporter

I'm not "gone", nor was I doing "clandestine work". I was a Truthout supporter, and I remain one.

Was an article wrong? Perhaps. Could any of many variables have made things change. Yes, I think so.

It's funny people are so quick to attack, and that is basically what the OP is, although it does it with nice words, without bearing in mind that this administration doesn't follow the laws the rest of us do. Perhaps Jason didn't bear that in mind when he wrote his article, either.

I don't know what may or may not have happened. I can only speculate, as everyone else can. An educated guess would be that this criminal administration did what they do best. Or, Rove turned on Cheney. Actually I think the second is most likely because * can't function as pResident without Karl Rove. It's purely speculation on my part, though.

I DO believe Karl Rove was in big trouble, and may still be. What he did to get out of it, temporarily, or permanently, we don't know. Still, I put far more faith in Truthout than I do in this administration. They've been making their own laws for a long time now, and I put nothing past them.

[AuntiBush]

43. Cruel Hoaxes...

How do they sleep at nights? Never mind. I don't care to know. They don't deserve a response because you are right, "they are evil." Just like that Coulter (won't repeat what I want to state).

And, I will Not. Give. Up!

[arwalden]

44. Nice Thoughts.

:loveya:

[AuntiBush]

45. Well now On Second Thought.

After re-reading one of your statements from your post:

"many more wanted so badly to believe that they suspended their abilities to think critically and bought into what they wanted to happen rather than what really was."

Respectfully, you're blaming us victims that placed faith here with people we thought we could trust. Don't blame the victims, please.

[DancingBear]

51. It is not blame, it is merely stating what happened

When you are predisposed to believe something predicated on who/what it is, and that someone/something brings forth something that you want to believe, it is often the case that the baby goes out with the bath water, and what should be obvious to all is missed by many.

That is what happened here, and I just ask that next time we all try and not forget about the baby.

In this case, the pro-evidence folks were right. Next time it may be different.

The advice still holds, however.

[Ladyhawk]

47. I haven't participated in the "discussions" after this latest

announcement...until now.

I was skeptical fairly early on and grew more so as the story failed to develop. I was reminded to never give in to hero-worship because all humans have feet of clay. They make poor idols. I was similarly reminded to re-adopt the logical position of skepticism in the face of fantastic positive claims. I celebrated too early and let myself hope instead of think. It is always wise to beware of what you wish to be true!

Now that the story seems to be over--barring some startling revelation--I just wanted to say that even though I may have disagreed with some of you, you are not my enemies. I would be tickled pink if it turned out Rove was indicted all along. We may even disagree about the general character of the people involved. I'd love to find out I was wrong about that, too. :shrug:

I'm not here to say anything except this: I hope we can continue to work together in the future to bring some light back to the world and the nation. So we disagreed. Big deal. We can still work together.

By the end of the week, DU will be more or less back to normal. This, too, shall pass.

[MadJohnShaft]

50. I thought I'd just develop a big hate at Patrick Fitzgerald