My Arab Friends are amazed at the Stupidity concerning the...

[BlueJazz]

"People at the Top" of our Country.

I've got 4 Arab friends that I see every so often. (I met them doing computer tech stuff for them)..
..anyway, They all say the same thing over and over..usually something like this..
"Don't your leaders realize that the "War thing" in the Arab world is not about politics, boundaries, factions
or whatever..it's about Religion..pure and simple. Can't they imagine what it would be like here if the
Catholics, Jews, Baptists, Atheists, Buddhas and other faiths were at War?....You could not Fight and Maim or
Kill your way to a lasting peace. The Baptists Would NEVER accept the ways of other Religions....the same goes
for the other Faiths. It shows an utterly complete lack of understanding of our (Former) Culture. This "War" can't be Won
or even "Lost"..it's just the normal routine of the area"

I usually just say..."Well, either they know and are just using the War and the Industrial Military to make Money
or they're dumb as a box of rocks about the workings of the world..or both"

[olaus]

1. My question

for them is can't they see that people of different faiths can live side by side in peace? Sure we have different views on Faith but I do not us killing one another over it.

[BlueJazz]

4. I've asked them that and they tell me that it's just not their "Way"

(Not that ALL arabs think like that) but (as they tell me) these people don't just have a Religion...
..they ARE the religion and their Father and his Father and his Father..Etc.. have been fighting for untold
Generations. They also tell me things like "You think some of the folks in this country are "Religious Nuts"??..Ha!..
you can't even imagine how deep these feeling go for a large share of the Population.;;; It's almost Genetic and you or
anybody else are NOT going to force them to Think like you...it ain't gonna happen" (and they add) .."NOT unless you want to spend
4 or 5 generations of war and not billions but Trillions and Trillions of dollars to make it happen....You'll drive the USA and the world into utter Bankruptcy"

I believe them.

[winter999]

5. Agreed!

No other major religion proselytizes at the point of a sword since we entered the Age of Reason (18th Century).

[Tesha]

7. St. Coulter would disagree with you.

> No other major religion proselytizes at the point of a sword
> since we entered the Age of Reason (18th Century).

St. Coulter would disagree with you, and when you
consider some of the shenanighans that certain American
troops have pulled in Iraq, you'd find pretty good
support for her suggested course of action.

Tesha

[blonndee]

15. Unless you count those who use violence and/or the

threat of violence against gays/feminists/liberals/nonbelievers/anyone else who doesn't follow their particular brand of Christianity.

[Warpy]

2. I'm always astonished by stupidity at the top

wherever I find it, and I've come to the conclusion it's because the only people who want to become the top are already colossally stupid or they would know better than to bother going there.

In other words, you have to be arrogant and ignorant to want the job and too damned stupid to rectify either of those conditions.

[valerief]

3. They're not stupid. They've all read Orwell and know how it works. n/t

[teknomanzer]

20. Orwell's writings weren't supposed to be used as...

a damn playbook. I guess his warning fell on deaf ears.

[TheFriedPiper]

6. Religion is evil, without it there is peace

NT

[antigone382]

10. Religion is like any other institution; it can be used for good or evil...

It all depends on the good or evil of the people who wield it. I'm an atheist myself, and I can certainly see where religion has inspired a great deal of hatred and violence, but I can also see how it inspires peace and charity. It's convenient to think that the absence of religion would lead to greater understanding and kindness towards our fellow humans, but I think the reality is that people would just revert to other excuses for fighting, like liberty, land rights, racial superiority, or vengeance. It's not necessarily religion that needs to be done away with (though I could take it or leave it) so much as the human mindset of competition and the dichotomy between self and other.


Edited to welcome you to DU :hi:

[SammyWinstonJack]

19. Agree. nt

[otokogi]

8. Iraq was secular and many faiths lived in peace till we stole their OIL

divide&conquer

[antigone382]

9. The guys up top are stupid...but I don't think this is all about religion.

Sure, religion is an excellent tool for firing up the masses, so to the little guy it might *seem* like it's all about his faith...but the reality is that most of the problems in the Middle East can be traced back to Western involvement. Before the whole imperialism fad in the 1800's, countries were pretty much divided along cultural lines, so people who believed the same things lived next to each other--I'm not saying there wasn't any bloodshed, but before we pat ourselves on the back for our comparative peacefulness and openness to ideas, let's not forget that the peace we're so proud of in the West has only been around for about sixty years in Western Europe, and a little over a hundred years in the U.S.

The point is that the imperialist nations went around snapping up ancient lands to suit their own economic purposes. After the World Wars, we relinquished control of these countries, but not before we carved up all these nations, according to political convenience rather than traditional borders, and appointed leaders who were friendly to our interests, whom the people of these nations naturally resented. What you had (and have still, to a large extent), was a collection of artificially created countries headed by leaders who were out of touch with their people, and naturally this produced a radical reaction that we couldn't control no matter how much we wanted to. It's not too much different than what happened with Eastern Europe after the Soviet Union dissolved, except that the Eastern European nations have been able to recover more quickly for a variety of historical and cultural reasons.

Now, I freely admit that this is a BIG oversimplification of several very complex historical phenomena, and I won't try to claim that religion plays no part in aggravating some of the problems there...but the radical fundamentalism you see today is a relatively recent development, and it's as much a symptom of the problems in the Middle East as it is a cause of them.

[Ganja Ninja]

11. Are they able to find the stupidity in their own governments and

societies as well? As fucked up as we are we're no where near as fucked up as them. At least we've mastered indoor plumbing.

[zbdent]

12. The American people don't get the irony when they go to church and

the speaker tells them that the evil ones are using religion to brainwash other people into doing terrible things . . .

[orwell]

13. That's Weird...

...I was recently in Egypt, mainly Cairo, and I detected no animosity among the faiths at all. In fact, it was remarkable how much respect different faiths showed each other.

Of course, I was only there for a month...

[riderinthestorm]

18. Unfortunately, Egypt does have a fairly brutal history

towards their own non-Muslims that continues even to this day (the Copts for example are the latest targeted non-Muslim group).

Egypt has worked pretty hard to homogenize their society.

I believe religion does perk under the surface of many of these conflicts and we ignore the OP's Arab friends' observations at our peril.

[CJCRANE]

14. What do you mean by "the war thing"?

Do you mean Israel/Palestine or US/Iraq or something else?

[BlueJazz]

16. The USA going to Iraq. Hey..don't shoot the messenger

[CJCRANE]

17. Don't worry...

I think they've probably got a point.

Just imagine if the boot was on the other foot (so to speak) - a predominantly muslim (or any non-christian religion ) force occupying the US, how would Americans feel? Or any force that comprises people from a completely different culture to you?

Let's face it, a lot of Americans are angry at being occupied by the neo-christian neo-cons, imagine what it would be like if it was a foreign force from half-way round the world?