When Hezbollah kills children, they're "martyrs for Palestine"

[BushOut06]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/20/nasrallah.interview/index.html

(CNN) -- Hezbollah leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah apologized for an attack that killed two Israeli Arab children in northern Israel, saying the youngsters were "martyrs for Palestine."

In a Thursday interview with Arabic-language news network Al-Jazeera, Nasrallah accepted responsibility for the Wednesday attack, while conceding that an apology to the family was not sufficient.

"To the family that was hit in Nazareth -- on my behalf and my brothers', I apologize to this family," he said.

"Some events like that happen. At any event, those who were killed in Nazareth, we consider them martyrs for Palestine and martyrs for the nation. I pay my condolences to them."


So let me get this straight - when Hezbollah kills innocent children on accident, it's okay, because shit happens, and they're "martyrs". Yet when Israel accidentally kills children, it's because Israel is evil and is deliberately targeting civilians.

God, I love the logic illustrated here on DU sometimes.

[msongs]

1. karl rove must be writing their stuff for them nt

[Ian David]

2. What will a child do with 72 virgins? n/t

[blonndee]

3. Someone from DU wrote that article?

Or was it a DUer quoted in the article?

[Mojambo]

5. Such a killjoy. Tearing down a perfectly good strawman!

Shame on you!

[BushOut06]

6. No, but I've seen countless threads attacking Israel...

And one of the primary accusations is that Israel is killing Palestinian children and deliberately targeting civilians. When anyone tries to point out that Hezbollah has killed more than their fair share of children in the past, those responses usually get drowned out in a bunch of anti-Israeli rhetoric.

Both sides have blood on their hands. To say that one side is worse than another, is just silly. To cut Hezbollah a break simply because Israel has more firepower? Even sillier.

[alcibiades_mystery]

20. What? Nobody on DU made that ridiculous claim?

You're tying Nasrallah's ridiculous nonsense to anyone who - in your view - posts "anti-Israeli rhetoric." See, and all this time I thought you had a legitimate point! But instead, you're metrely trying to sneak by some illegitimate association to push your ideological position! My oh my. I was out there looking for the DUer who said that children killed by Hezbollah are martyrs, or even justified, and you just took all the wind out of my sails. Thanks a lot!

[H2O Man]

54. Well said. n/t

[theHandpuppet]

47. Yeah, just what I was thinking, too

What a bizarre argument.

Was it someone on DU who called these innocent children "martyrs" or was it Hezbollah?

ALL CHILDREN, no matter what faith, no matter on which side of the border they live, be they Arab or Jew, are victims in this war.

STOP THE VIOLENCE.

Peace!

[BillZBubb]

4. When Israel kills children they are "collateral damage"

And the Hezbollah guy apologized. When did you ever hear of Israel doing that?

Nice straw man bullshit from you though. Nobody here said it was OK that Hezbollah kills children. Nobody but fools believe Israel "accidentally" kills children either. When you bomb heavily populated civilian areas you KNOW CHILDREN WILL DIE.

Both sides are thugs.

[BushOut06]

8. Perhaps if Hezbollah wouldn't hide behind those children...

What do you expect when an organization like Hezbollah conducts terrorist attacks, then runs and hides behind innocent children? They deliberately set themselves up in densely populated areas just for that reason. Maybe if Hezbollah would be kind enough to set up their own military bases outside of populated areas that could be more easily targeted, there wouldn't be as much civilian casualties?

[BillZBubb]

14. What Fing bullshit. You certainly aren't that stupid.

Hezbollah is in densely populated areas for numerous reasons--the primary one being that's where they live.

You want Hezbollah to sit out in the open and let the Israelis bomb them? Nobody but a moron would expect such a thing.

Maybe if Israel would agree to meet its opponents on an open field with each side EQUALLY armed, then they wouldn't be murdering so many innocents time after time? F-16's against Kalishnakovs isn't exactly a fair fight. Get a clue.

[BushOut06]

24. Don't tell me you're that friggin naive

What the hell do you expect Israel to do then? Not do a damned thing? And allow Hezbollah to continue to stockpile rockets and use them against Israeli civilian areas? You go after where the targets are! It's really that damned simple! But I suppose that makes it easier for you to turn around and accuse Israel of deliberately targeting civilians - when you know damned well that's not true.

[BillZBubb]

32. I know Israel deliberately targets civilians. It is true.

You don't want to admit it, but the body count tells the tale. All the hand waving about "collateral damage" doesn't wash.

I've said in many other posts what Israel should do. What they are doing now is the exact opposite. They are making a short term problem into a long term nightmare for themselves.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. He Apologized For Hitting The Wrong Target

Hezbollah's errant bombs killed two Arab children, hence the shahids for Palestine remark.

[Truthiness Inspector]

11. A non-apology apology

That's like saying, "We're real sorry we killed your kid, but chin up! He is a martyr now!"

Israel doesn't try to pretend that any civilians killed in their strikes have actually been granted a (hollow and transparently backhanded) "favor." :eyes:

[BillZBubb]

17. Yep to Israel, the dead Arab kids are just dead "terrorists".

They don't even get a kind thought.

[Truthiness Inspector]

23. Lame and patently false

Please support that with evidence.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lefty48197]

36. He apologized "on behalf of his brothers". The dumb f*ck won't even

accept responsibility for the deaths he causes .

[Lefty48197]

35. Hezbollah puts all their command offices right among civilians.

Do they have military bases? No. Their aresenals of bullets, bombs, rockets and suicide belts are kept with the militants who DON'T live on military bases. They live right among the civilians. Don't think for one second that the Lebanese don't hate Hezbollah.

[roguevalley]

45. both sides can apologize until hell freezes over. the children will

still be dead. this isn't a weighted argument. How many you kill and how compared to someone else doesn't negate crap. This wrangling is about politics using dead children. the dead don't care about these kind of arguments. They are dead. Both sides are fuckers. Period.

[charlie]

7. Drag something into DU and call it DU logic

Logic really isn't your thing, is it?

[everythingsxen]

16. I believe the OP was referring...

to the inordinate number of threads currently going on DU whose general premise is that Israel is intentionally targeting civilians or at least that Israel is evil for killing children.

[BillZBubb]

22. Well the OP should make his point then and get it slammed back.

The general premise is true. What Israel is currently doing is brutal, uncalled for, and evil. Israel does intentionally target civilians, but they define it as collateral damage. They know civilians will die in large numbers but proceed anyway. That is every bit as evil as Hezbollah firing an unguided missile into Israel.

[alcibiades_mystery]

26. How does Nasrallah's craven stupidity negate either of those assertions?

:shrug:

I, for one, am sure that it is not Israeli policy to "intentionally" targey actual civilians (though the targeting of civilian infrastructure is manifest, and can always be justified behind "dual use" arguments). That said, if the policy is bound to kill significant numbers of civilians, then it doesn't really matter whether it is intentional. The inevitable results of a choice are intentional by default. I wouldn't call it "evil" (the very notion of "evil" being a stupidity for half-wits), but I would question the ethics of a policy that results in such consequences.

Now, to return to the original point, bringing Nasrallah's equally unethical declarations into the mix is an utter non sequitor. One can question and evaluate Israeli policy without agreeing to the outrageous declarations of Mr. Nasrallah. The argumentative problem (and the dishonest fallacy promoted by the OP) is that one cannot make statements about Israeli policy without necessarily coupling oneself to Nasrallah's statements. That's utter nonsense, and anyone with a lick of sense knows it.

[areo64]

9. Do you know that Israel calls its killed martyrs?

That fact is rarely reported. You have to remember that Israel is a religious state.

It's just something they say; ethnic tradition in their wars on both sides.

[rockymountaindem]

44. Israel is *not* a religious state

[mmonk]

12. Who says when Hezbollah kills Israeli children, it's ok?

Let me provide a different take. Say two vicious murderers checked into a Marriott hotel. To send a message and to make sure you get them, is it ok to blow up the Marriott?

[Truthiness Inspector]

18. Not a good analogy

What if those two murderers in your example were launching missiles and rockets from the Marriott all over town? What would you do?

[Dresden]

43. Probably send in a S.W.A.T. team.....

and handle it as a police action; it wouldn't make sense to kill other innocent guests staying at the hotel who aren't involved in the missile launching.

[mmonk]

49. I think it is to some extent. I was going to say

even if they sniping at people accross the street from a third floor window, would it be a good plan to blow up the Marriott? A moral response still requires a conscience. A response just to achieve an objective does not.

[Lefty48197]

37. Hezbollah does. They go on buses and kill the people on board

They keep claiming that it's a legitimate military act because they're at war with Israel.

[mmonk]

50. Then just blow up the buses.

Stay consistent.

[Ignoramus]

13. I have not read any pro-hezbollah post on DU

Again this is a false dichotomy. You should remember from being pumelled by this type of logic over and over and over regarding Iraq.

Opposition to Israeli collective punishment doesn't mean apologizing for Hezbollah. Being against the aggression against Iraq didn't mean being "pro-saddam".

The debate I see is betweeng being for or against pro-Israel bias. It is nowhere a debate between Israel vs. Hezbollah.

[BushOut06]

21. What I mean is...

Seems like there's this overwhelming diatribe against Israel for going after Hezbollah, and the civilian casualties that occur because of it. Yet I sense a strange quiet when it comes to condemning groups like Hezbollah and Hamas for the atrocities they have committed over the years.

Sorry, it's just that this has been a sore point for me for quite some time, not just in lieu of recent events. It seems like whenever there is a suicide bombing or terrorist attack in Israel, nary a word is said. I've seen posts in the past that while not actually defending the terrorists, make it sound like they are somewhat sympathetic because of the horrible conditions that Israel imposes on them, and because of the long-standing Israeli occupation of Gaza, West Bank, and the Golan Heights.

[BillZBubb]

28. Please, that's a load of crap.

Nary a word is said when Israel is attacked because there is consensus. Nobody would post DEFENDING the attack. It is understood to be a tragedy by virtually everyone.

When Israel attacks another country and murders civilians many words are said because people here do post DEFENDING the undefensable. Those of us who oppose the murder of civilians and collective punishment under any guise must object, like now.

You need to think before you let your emotions cloud your perception of events.

[alcibiades_mystery]

31. Absolutely correct

n/t

[Binka]

46. The OP Won't Engage With You A-M

Wonder why? Will you please stop making so much sense! Sheesh the agitators don't like that!:silly:

[Truthiness Inspector]

29. It's not just you

Anyone who doesn't believe what you just posted should post an anti-Hezbollah/Hamas thread, and he/she will get bombarded with posts talking about the "humanitarian" things they do, how Israel "caused" them to do x y z, yadda yadda yadda.

[Strawman]

38. Our gov't does a good job at condemning Hezbollah's indiscriminate killing

And stands idly by while Israel conducts a morally and militarily lazy strategy of flattening Lebanon. People are mad that their government supports this cruel and disproportionate response by a US ally.

If our government were tacitly endorsing Hezbollah terror attacks and sent billions of dollars in foreign aid to Hezbollah every year, then maybe you'd see more condemnation of Hezbollah on DU. It's more or less understood that they're thugs. That's like responding to a post about police brutality by saying geez why aren't there more posts condemning violent street gangs?

[npincus]

53. I'm with you, friend.

[alcibiades_mystery]

15. Who on DU agreed with Nasrallah's ridiculous statement?

Please point to the post. I'd like to get my licks in as well.

Thanks.

[Bretttido]

30. No one did, this is just another flamebait thread

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Just Me]

25. Where are the apologies for all the lives lost at the hands of,...

,...superior military forces? "Oh, so sorry,...ya'll collaterally damaged and in the way of our aim to rule over the whole of the Middle East". Wrong place, wrong time,...not our fault.

FUCK THAT!!!!!

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lefty48197]

33. Couldn't have put it better myself...

If Israel had killed those children, dozens of DUers would have been screaming about how immoral Isreal is. Why aren't they showing the bloodied faces of those children on TV? (rhetorical question, no need for anybody to respond)

[leftofthedial]

34. the killing is wrong on both sides

BUT, when has Israel ever apologized for killing Palestinian, Arab or Lebanese kids?

[Lefty48197]

39. I think Israel has every right to kill every member of Hezbollah

After all, Hezbollah has declared war on every single Israeli citizen. They strap suicide bombs on mentally ill people and send them onto buses loaded with CIVILIANS. They send the bombers into pizza parlors, into Satyr dinners, and anywhere they can find Israeli citizens. If some nutty group came into this country and tried that sh*t, I'd personally start shooting them, whether or not the government responded properly.

[leftofthedial]

40. If they had a flag and used jets instead of suicide bombs

would you feel the same?

Let's say a Latin American group opposed to US policy in the Southwest used Mexico as a base for terror attacks in Phoenix and Albuquerque. Would you indiscriminately start killing civilians in Mexico City as retaliation?

[Lefty48197]

41. Is this mythical terrorist group that attacks Phoenix an ongoing military

war making group? If so, then I would advocate exterminating them too. Would I indiscriminately kill civilians in Mexico City? No. I would kill the murderers.


Here's my question to you: Hezbollah has launched over 1200 rockets into Israel in the last week. Do you have a problem with that? They're not even shooting at military targets, they're launching rockets at civilian targets. Every damned one of their rockets. Do you compare Hamas militants to civilian Lebanese? They're not one and the same.

[leftofthedial]

42. I have more than "a problem" with Hezbollah and their violence.

I also have more than "a problem" with Israel and its violence and coersion.

Israel is inflicting massive collateral damage in Lebanon. They are not selectively targeting only terrorists. Doesn't this bother you in the least? Or do you endorse killing just anyone to get revenge against Hezbollah?

In fact, the Israeli campaign seems clearly designed to destroy as much of Lebanon as possible, regardless of whether it is Hezbollah.

Hezbollah are murdering bastards, but their organization comes from the valid disenfranchisement of a significant displaced population. Short of genocide, that underlying problem is not going away. Kill Hezbollah and another will spring up to take its place.

Both sides are more focused on their hatred of one another than on any desire for peace or tolerance in the region.

If you are a 10-year-old kid who just had your legs blown off, it really doesn't matter whose missile or bomb caused it.

There are no "good guys" in this equation.

[Lefty48197]

61. The only way to please Hezbollah is for Israel to cease to exist.

I don't feel good about war, but attacking infrastructure is the first step to a ground invasion and that's what's about to happen. The invasion will be directed against the people and military arms of Hezbollah. No it's not pretty, but it's absolutely necessary. Israel never asked Hezbollah to launch rockets at their innocent citizens, yet it happened anyway. Hezbollah bears ALL responsibility for the recent deaths in Lebanon and in Israel.

[Lefty48197]

60. I meant "Hezbollah" and not "Hamas" - Sorry for the mistake.

.

[The Stranger]

57. Do you have a link for that?

They strap suicide bombs on mentally ill people and send them onto buses loaded with CIVILIANS. They send the bombers into pizza parlors, into Satyr dinners, and anywhere they can find Israeli citizens.

Do you have a link for Hezbollah doing this?

[Biernuts]

Well, since you asked - see below links

<http://www.boston.com/news/world/articles/2006/06/10/shell_kills_7_in_gaza_family/>

<http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5507160>

<http://www.israpundit.com/2006/?p=1395>

[Biernuts]

55. Delete - double post

[JI7]

48. Nasrallah cares about neither the Israeli or Arab kids being killed

he is a sick perverted coward. lets see him martyr himself for "the cause". but he wont. he will sit back enjoying every news that comes of children dying and exploit it for his own vile agenda.

[leftofthedial]

59. I'm beginning to understand why peace avoids the region

[Biernuts]

51. Believe you captured it very accurately n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

52. Both sides are murdering civilians for "good" reasons.

And, both "regret" the deaths.

Of course, neither side, despite their "regrets" are willing to stop killing civilians because they both have "good" reasons.

[The Stranger]

56. Part of the problem is DUers object to paying taxes to have kids killed.

The U.S. provides much of the weaponry that Israel uses to kill kids. The U.S. does not provide the weaponry that Hezbollah uses to kill kids.

[izzybeans]

58. When Israel kills children they are "heroes of freedom" to some

folks. Both are equally absurd.