Time mag: Elizabeth Edwards hints at Kerrys' 'lifestyle problem' in Q&A

[gauguin57]

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/printout/0,8816,1538640,00.html

Hmmm ... interesting comments about the lifestyle of the Edwards vs. the lifestyle of the Kerrys. Hmmm.

Time: Some people say that if your husband had been at the top of the ticket in 2004, he could have beaten George W. Bush.

E. Edwards: It would be hard for me to say that I didn't think that was true. John was exactly the counterpoint we needed because the President had portrayed himself as somebody in touch with the guy on the corner. What you needed to show the falsity of that was to have somebody who really was in touch with the guy on the corner, who really understood the lives of people who work in factories, people who struggle, people who live middle-class lives built around their children, Saturday or Sunday soccer, and Friday-night football.

Time: Was John Kerry's privileged background a problem?

Edwards: I'd be telling you things that weren't true if I said that he didn't have an impediment. He did. He was certainly able to be painted as someone who didn't understand what people did with their free time or what their concerns were when they sat around the table. But I don't think that if you looked at his policies you would have found that to be a fair conclusion.

Time: You write about the Kerrys' plush lifestyle. How would you describe yours?

Edwards: It's a different kind of luxury, I think. I know the people whose artwork is on my walls--they're not the old masters. I shop at Target. We eat at Wendy's. Even though we have a lot and I feel very blessed, we are basically the same people we were when we first started out and made, between us, $28,000 a year.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

1. This really rubs me the wrong way.

These comments don't need to be made.

[JeffR]

3. Agreed. Most of us expect better from her, I think.

This is disappointing.

[Imagevision]

109. I think she pretty much nailed it...

[lumpy]

128. This sort of garbage would appeal to people

who covet and envy what they do not have. What did she 'nail'? Did she somehow diminish Kerry's accomplishments and philosophies of life or his ability to lead?

[bloom]

269. Maybe you were not aware

of how much was made of Kerry and the home in Idaho and the other 4 (or more) Heinz homes. Many people were aware that Kerry and Bush shared a social class with their Skull & Bones - super-rich lifestyles (which Kerry got from marriage - Bush got from birth).

I thought it seemed pretty clear that Kerry seemed to have been far more on point in the 70's than he has been since he has been super-wealthy. He seems rather intellectually soft these days (comparatively) - for whatever reasons.


The Edwards have been plenty successful themselves - but it doesn't seem that they have sold their souls to protect the dollar in the same way.

And after the election - Kerry seemed to not care if he lost (like what's the difference when you have what he has - or even that he didn't care that much if Bush continued as president) - Edwards seemed to care a great deal.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

322. Uh... welcome to politics?

Most Americans DO covet and envy what they don't have.

[LibraLiz1973]

266. I one hundred percent agree with what she said

And frankly if you read it in it's totality without getting pissed you will see that she said alot of positive things about Kerry- NOT negative things. She is talking about where the country was at that moment

[Unbowed]

297. It wasn't her perceptions of where the country was that rubs me the wrong

way, but rather her deliberate painting of herself and her husband as somewhat better. That's pretty hypocritical considering that they owned a Georgetown mansion in the same neighborhood as the Kerry's. The Edwards purchased the home. Nobody twisted their arms to live in an elite neighborhood, so they are hardly in a position to cast stones. In John Kerry's case, he only lives there with his wife. He does not own the home. His finances are separate and he is not super rich. His wife inherited the homes she owns from her late husband and they are her children's homes that their father left them. Kerry only owns half of one home, the one in Massachusetts, you know the state he's a senator from.

The perception of Kerry as a rich, liberal elitist was harmful, but it was inaccurate. Instead of fighting that, I think it is shameful of Mrs. Edwards to use that unfair perception to promote her husband's candidacy in 2008.

I'll tell you this and you would be wise to think long and hard on it: you will NEVER hear Teresa Heinz Kerry say anything negative about Elizabeth Edwards. And if anyone else did, THK would be the first to defend her. Now that's a lady I can respect and I don't give a damn how much money her husband left her.

[LibraLiz1973]

326. Actually I think she was saying why the perception of the 2 couples

was so different- and that is was mostly EXTERIOR things that made peoples minds up.
And I really dont think she was pushing for JE to run in 08.
I think she clearly said she doesn't know if AMerica is ready for a woman who is
not "a queen" who sits on the floor and plays monopoly with her children.
And I think she is right.
Remember how much shit Tipper Gore took over the anti-depressant issue?
It was like she became too human.
I found it endearing- for Republicans it was just another reason to pile on.

Aside from Hillary Clinton (who was a bit aloof & the repubs hated her like she was satans hand maiden)
Look at all of the uptight first ladies we've had since JFK.....
Whether admitted or not, many Americans do factor the wife in when they vote.
And they appear to want an uptight, Donna Reed type woman BEHIND THE MAN.
That's why women like Babs Bush, Nancy Reagan & Laura Bush are heros to Repubs.
It's just a hop away from being pregnant and barefoot.

THK & EE were both far too involved and too vocal in the campaign for most republicans.

Just a theory, but thats how I see it. I think Repubs are frightened by strong assertive women who
have an opinion and who have or have had careers of their own.

[Unbowed]

328. Very wise observations.

The media does spin what people say. Maybe she didn't mean to criticize the Kerry's after all.

I'm just sick of all the piling on that gets done to Kerry when he's such a good senator and nice guy. I've met him and it was by accident. Let's put it this way, I wasn't expecting to bump into a US senator and I was in my work clothes (landscaper, dirty) and he chatted with me like I was an ambassador. I remember that. So I get really annoyed when someone implies he's Prince Charles or something.

[Benhurst]

15. I don't know. I think most politicians are out of touch with

the needs of average, middle class voters. If they weren't, we would have had a national health program years ago.

Our rulers, and I use the word advisedly, have good salaries, fantastic health care, and large pensions waiting for them upon retirement, to say nothing of a revolving door to more riches if they are so inclined.

If the Edwards family has managed to maintain touch with mainstream America, more power to them. Most politicians have not.

And while I think Kerry is a good man, it must be difficult to maintain a common touch while married to one of the richest women in the world.

The American government no longer represents the people as a whole, only the upper 5-10 percent.

As for the people themselves, they are so brainwashed by the corporate media, no wonder they often vote against their own self-interest. We wouldn't want a class ware here in BushAmerica, would we? No, let's just stick with the ruling elites.

[lumpy]

144. Bound to happen with many pols. The longer they

play the DC political game, the more they lose touch with common reality. Long time professional politicians like Rumsfeld, Cheney and pols like Arlen Specter are fine examples of this happening.

[karynnj]

215. Edwards himself has been a multi- millionaire for years

Kerry was 50 years old when he married Teresa. For many of those years, his sole source of income was basically his Senate salary. There were periods there where he definately had to think before making a large purchase - Edwards has not been in that situation for decades.

[Unbowed]

304. I read he was sleeping on somebody's couch for years.

He was a homeless senator.

[karynnj]

318. I'm not sure if it was years and I think he stayed

with various friends, rather than just one. Someone posted that he even was teased about it at one of the St Patrick Day's events - where someone joked something on the lines of, "Massachusetts really does care for its homeless veterans. It even has one of them as a US Senator."

This seems to have been the solution he and friends came to, to preserve his integrity and to let him be with his daughters as much as possible. Nearly any way a Senator could earn money on the side could represent a conflict of interest. As most of his friends were extremely wealthy, I'm sure he was comfortable. (This is not poverty.) It does clearly show he is not motivated by money or keeping up with the Jones.

What is impressive is that this was during the time he was investigating BCCI and finding many politicians on the take. If there is any is any doubt that he was not corrupt - it is the justaposition of these 2 things. Many Senators use their position and connections to get deals or tips you and I couldn't - turning their position into money, he clearly didn't. In fact, he had money from his law practice and from selling his share of a cookie company, that he and a friend started before he became Lt Governor that he spent when he was a Senator.

[Unbowed]

302. I guess he should dump his wife then.

[tabasco]

21. I agree, Until Edwards volunteers for combat, she can STFU.

Kerry is not a pampered prince. He volunteered for grunt work (navy-type) in Vietnam and I respect the hell out of that.

Why doesn't she comment on the real pampered prince, MR. GW Bush?

[WildEyedLiberal]

94. Exactly, thank you

And honestly - who among us can say that, if we had access to enormous wealth, we wouldn't have nice things too? Hell, if I had money like that, YES I'd have a damn nice home in a damn nice neighborhood. YES I'd have a boat (if I liked boating), YES I'd treat myself to the little pleasures in life. Who wouldn't? \

What's important is whether the luxuries are the sole purpose of your life, or if they are just that - luxuries. Kerry could kick back and be a wealthy, detached aristocrat, but he chooses to work for the common good. I have met him - I am from a working middle class blue collar family and not for a second did I feel like there was some sort of class gulf between Kerry and I. He treats people as his equal. Wealth does not automatically correlate to arrogance, and I am deeply, deeply disappointed in Elizabeth Edwards for this cheap shot. Hey, Elizabeth - who GIVES A SHIT if you eat at Wendy's? **I** don't eat at Wendy's because I think fast food is trash - am I an elitist, despite being from a union family?

How utterly disappointing.

[lumpy]

124. Great post, WildEyedOne

Couldn't agree more. A stuggle to economically survive and leading a simple life does not guarantee good leadership. It is certainly more complex than that; all factors have to enter into the values of an individual. Her life style comparisons managed to piss me off. The proof is in the pudding.

[Mad_Dem_X]

161. You said it!

A disappointment, indeed. :(

[Unbowed]

307. Good point about Wendys.

Elizabeth Edwards should be more concerned about her diet. Kerry loves Burger King and his wife is always trying to get him to eat healthy and drink "elitist" shit like green tea and spring water.

Maybe Elizabeth should be more concerned with a healthy diet for herself and her husband than about the Kerry's lifestyle.

[Catchawave]

222. She wasn't asked about MR GW Bush !

Geesh, two threads on bashing her !? Is this what we're supposed to be doing to win in November :shrug:

[LibraLiz1973]

267. Did u read all of her comments, or just the 2 sentences?

Because she most definately wasnt slapping Kerry

[Unbowed]

301. He also drove a fork lift as a teenager to earn pocket money.

Anyone who works as hard as he does is no pampered prince.

[patricia92243]

33. Agree - she should not in any way diss the one who gave her husband a onc

once in a lifetime opportunity. Makes me think of Lieberman.

[Unbowed]

303. Exactly!

I'm really dissapointed that she would do this. Kerry put her husband on a national ticket, and frankly, Edwards didn't bring much to the ticket except a pretty face.

[Libby2]

125. It does me too.

Bullshit.

[JerseygirlCT]

168. Me too.

First of all, both the Kerrys and the Edwards' are wealthy. Far more so than the average American.

Is there something inherently more noble about eating at Wendy's? I don't think so.

Secondly, she's falling into a trap. Wealth is not the issue. Communication might be. Policies certainly are. If she's saying Kerry did not succeed in putting across his true personality, and was seen by some, and painted by the GOP as an elitist, that's one thing. But she seems to be saying that his wealth means he's unqualified for office. Yet her wealth doesn't have the same effect?

It's not the money. It's what you do with it that matters. It's the choices you make as a politician for others that matters.

[Tellurian]

204. Why, she's entitled to her opinion..

who would have been closer to Kerry than the Edwards'?

I hail her as a breath of fresh air...she tells it like it IS!

[Unbowed]

305. Knocking a friend for political gain isn't fresh air. It stinks.

She sang a different tune right after the election, but now that her husband might run AGAIN, she's suddenly critical and sanctimonious.

[Tellurian]

308. ...................

[philgobluemi]

235. Of course, if we're honest with ourselves

we'll understand that they're true.

[Laurab]

263. I agree with you

Rich is rich, she's rich too. Being rich doesn't mean you never were poor, or can't understand the problems of people with less than you have. I think Kerry has shown over and over again that he DOES connect - seeing him with his daughters, running a marathon in Boston, talking to "normal" people everywhere he goes. He CHOSE to be a public servant. I believe he also mortgaged his home to run for president. HIS - not his wife's.

I thought Mrs. Edwards was smarter and classier than that, and I'm disappointed in her. I don't care WHERE she shops, she's very, very wealthy, and perhaps they just have different tastes in artwork.

[Unbowed]

309. Teresa through the Heinz foundation is a patron of the arts.

She would know the difference in quality art and many people invest in art. Maybe the Edwards invest in the stock market instead. Who are they to judge?

[LeftyMom]

2. We're just like you because the other guy's even more wealthy!

Give me a fucking break. :eyes: If they're gonna be crabs in a bucket could they please be a bit less transparent about it?

[GreenPartyVoter]

4. I would say then, that there is no chance of a John and John ticket in "08

[maxsolomon]

5. i should hope not

Gore/Clark is infinitely preferable, and it was in 2004, too.

[ShortnFiery]

6. Or perhaps Gore/Kerry? n/t

[nam78_two]

252. I like that one

I liked both of them.....
I like Gore/Feingold too and Gore/Kucinich (though that seems less likely).

[madmusic]

292. Yes!

I could buy into that.

[TahitiNut]

7. Given a choice between Edwards and Kerry, I'll take Edwards.

:shrug: My strongest preference is Kucinich ... and any ticket he'd be on. Feingold/Kucinich? Yep!

[ShortnFiery]

11. I'm thinking less of Edwards today.

People should be careful about backstabbing fellow Democrats. I also expected more from her than this petty sniping. :thumbsdown:

[The Backlash Cometh]

49. I agree with you to a certain degree.

But I have a soft spot for Elizabeth Edwards. I think she really felt that she and her husband had made a promise to the people to fight to the end in that last presidential election, especially after what we experienced in 2000; and maybe, just maybe, Kerry's hesitation occurred because he lost "The eye of the Tiger," so to speak. Certainly a man with his military experience should have had the instincts to come out like Mel Gibson in the Patriot when they tried to swiftboat him.

I don't know. There is a lesson here indeed, and maybe that is, if you want to reach Southern people, you need to downplay your Northeastern lifestyle. I don't know about Southerners, but I am very much aware that in the Northeast, we have the country's banking system as well as the bond and stock market. And come rain or shine, Northeasterners seem to be able to maintain a certain lifestyle, which is foreign to most of us who are just scraping along. In the Northeast, either you know someone in the market that can give you whisper numbers, or you work in the bond market and know that it's not unheard of that a twenty-something can take home some ridiculous 6 figure bonus money at the end of the year. Anyway, it's the smugness and attitude that puts people off, not that Kerry had any of it, but that's the perception he was fighting against. Maybe?

[ShortnFiery]

120. I have no soft spot for ANYone who would publically back-stab an ally.

No slack for her. :thumbsdown:

[Auntie Bush]

134. DITTO for me!!!!!!

[philgobluemi]

238. Does that mean Kerry too

who leaked that Edwards wouldn't promise not to run in 2008 if Kerry did?

[WildEyedLiberal]

249. Kerry didn't "leak" that

That pile of BS came from the Edwards camp.

[tomreedtoon]

298. How about Kerry betraying the people who voted for him?

By not bothering to contest the questionable results of 2004? And by running around doing his photo-ops and image improvement events?

Kerry doesn't deserve another chance at anything, except perhaps Prima Ballerina spot now that Lieberman has left the Pink Tutus...


"We're dancing over voting irregularities for Daddy Dubya!"

[Name removed]

311. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Unbowed]

310. I agree!

She lost my respect and I was just about to buy her book.

[Imagevision]

141. I'm thinking so much more of Edwards today...

[WildEyedLiberal]

162. You hate Kerry so much that you love any cheap shot against him?

That says a lot about your character.

[Shakespeare]

169. IT WAS NOT A CHEAP SHOT

Goddamnit, I'm sick of seeing DUers take something COMPLETELY out of context. She's talking about the effect of public perception in politics, which is there whether we like it or not. She also PRAISED Kerry's policies.

:banghead:

[WildEyedLiberal]

173. Well, what I'm more responding to is the fact that

Imagevision clearly believes it was a cheap shot because he's running around shitting all over this thread and using it as an excuse to attack Kerry. So clearly in his estimation it was an attack on Kerry... and in that light, that he'd praise Edwards for an alleged attack on Kerry, reflects on his character, which is why I made that comment.

I see what you're saying, but to me she ruined her point at the end when she said "well, we choose to shop at Target and eat at Wendy's" as if that's what "normal" people do as opposed to the rich (eg the Kerrys). Kerry completely aside, that comment pissed me off - I think it's crass pandering to the middle class and patronizing to boot.

"Oh, I shop at Target, so I'm just like ordinary folks" as if middle class people define themselves by shopping at Target and eating at fast food. Most of us, if we had the money the Edwards OR the Kerrys have, would not shop at Target or eat fast food. I just hate being pandered to in that way, I hated it when Bush did it for 4 years and I hate it now.

[sufrommich]

230. I don't think most people will see that as "pandering" to the middle class

People do like to see success stories like the Edwards,they relate to them as "real" people.Like it or not,it has value.

[LibraLiz1973]

268. I know I just want to smack heads together- DU can be SO NEGATIVE

People see half of what waS said and GO OFF.

Damn you Elizabeth Edwards!! How dare you say anything against Saint Kerry? HOW DARE YOU???


Oh wait.... she DIDN'T say anything AGAINST him.

Oh well, I'll yell and freak out anyway and blow this all out of proportion

[philgobluemi]

237. But Democrats do better when they

win the "cares about people like me" and "understands my problems" vote. See the Big Dog.

Look, this is nothing new, this was one of the reasons I supported Edwards in 2004, the counter-points of aristocracy vs. American Dream Horatio Alger story were just too obvious to pass up. We never could punch at Bush's aristocratic twit-ness when we ran to real/perceived aristocrats against him -- Gore and Kerry.

[Unbowed]

299. Edwards couldn't even carry his own state.

And he was a distant second to Kerry in the primary. I wouldn't vote for him for national office again. He's a nice guy but totally ineffective. Being likeable doesn't win elections.

Feingold and Kuchinich are both smart and honest politicians. That ticket will never fly though. Feingold won't fly either. Not in 2008. Maybe one day.

I'm a Northeast liberal transplanted to TN, which has been a huge wake up call. No way that these people will vote for any of the above. They are starting to regret Bush but they are beginning to realize that Kerry was a better choice. I'm hearing good things about Kerry that I never heard when I first moved here.

[MidwestTransplant]

9. Ok by me. Don't need Kerry on the ticket again.

[Imagevision]

142. Kerry, been there, done that...next!

[Mass]

30. Good. I dont need Edwards on the ticket!

[Homer Wells]

8. Sounds like Presidential Politicking to me

The old John/John ticket was only for 2004.
2008 is a whole new ballgame,and sounds to me like she is getting the John Edwards for President campaign kick-started.

[hopein08]

123. Yep, getting a campaign started is prob. the main reason for her book...

God, I hate being that cynical and skeptical about this. I really want to like the John & Elizabeth Edwards but it is getting harder all the time. I was thrilled when Kerry picked Edwards but I think I may have been wrong.

I've got to say that the Wendy's thing was kinda cute during the campaign. But it is just old and tired now. Especially when it is in tandem with the shopping for sales at Target thing. And even more so when it is used 110% as a political gimmick (that manages to slam a probable opponent!).

[philgobluemi]

246. WTF?

How was the Wendy's thing a gimmick and political stunt when they did it for 20 years before John even considered politics?

[hopein08]

280. It itself isn't a gimmick...talking about it in the context of political

campaigning very well could be.

I do realize know that I wasn't very clear in my post, but it is too late to edit. Sorry if it sounded to combative!

Welcome to DU!!!!

[Sensitivity]

10. Guess Kerry made another mistake: should have got Clark for V.P.

[MessiahRp]

17. Clark actually might have won his state...

Edwards didn't help out in the South at all which was why they picked him. Clark would have strengthened the whole security issue they seemed to win with.

Rp

[Mass]

24. It was definitively a mistake.

[Clark2008]

31. Clark doesn't want to be VP - then or now

He said he would be no one's Dick Cheney.

I think he'd go for Sec. of State, though, but I prefer him as president.

[Nye Bevan]

37. Agreed- Edwards didn't add much to the ticket

Boyish good lucks and a pretty good "Two Americas" speech, but that was pretty much it.

If Kerry had picked Clarke I think he would be in the White House today.

[lumpy]

139. It takes more than Dan Quayle boyishness

to win me over. Definately had it with the 'down home' poltical syndrome. I like someone with genuine charisma, experience, a show of real strength and a swift brain.

[philgobluemi]

239. Correction

What Edwards was set out to do was win over small and medium size towns. And … according to Charlie Cook from Cook Report a week after the election as reported in the National Journal.
"In smaller towns with populations of between 10,000 and 50,000 which represent 8% of the vote, Kerry actually picked up 10 points over Gore, moving from 38% to 48%, while President Bush dropped 9 points, from 59% to 50%. Among the 16% in rural America, Kerry improved there points over Gore."
http://www.cookpolitical.com/column/2004/110904.php

So, where Edwards was used, he was quite successful. The Kerry campaign sent Edwards to small towns and this just happens to be one of just a few places where Kerry did better than Gore.

[Bucky]

260. Oh, you and your blasted Vulcan logic! (...are welcomed to DU)

Edwards did exactly what a veep should do, hit the opposition, work the marginals, and not upstage the boss. That may not necessarily mean he can run at the top of the ticket but he's not failed to deliver yet.

[Snivi Yllom]

186. The mistake was Kerry should have been VP

And edwards at the top of the ticket.

[Bucky]

261. Kerry is senatorial. Kerry is presidential. Kerry is NOT vice presidential

The chemistry there, frankly, would be all wrong.

[Snivi Yllom]

321. Well he's not THAT 'presidential'. He lost.

I think he's far more senatorial than presidential.

[valerief]

12. I wonder if there's going to be a new branch of Democrats, NeoDems,

the way the Republicans splintered off into Neocons-Religious Right vs. all the other Republicans.

[Bucky]

262. Odd. She endorsed her husband for Prexy and Adele Graham for First Lady?

Is the country ready for Elizabeth Edwards as First Lady?

(Laughs.) When John was running in 2004 in the primaries, then Florida Senator Bob Graham was in the race. His wife is regal--tall, beautiful, always perfect and gracious in every way. I think there's part of the American public that wants there to be a queen. The public would have to tell you whether they're ready for somebody who sits on the floor playing Monopoly with the kids.


===============

:O I don't think the country will EVER be that liberal!!!

[valerief]

291. I want a bachelor or bachelorette as prezzie. I wanna see prezzie

date Hollywood stars. I LOVE to NOT see a Family man/Woman in the job. How liberating!

edited for spelling

[MessiahRp]

13. Pot... Kettle... WAY BLACK...

I met and talked with Mr. Kerry 3 times including sharing a beer briefly with him in Iowa in November '03. He couldn't be any more every man and down to Earth. The ridiculous assertions by the Media, the Republican smear machine and now the pathetic inferences of Elizabeth Edwards are proof why liars are running the country now.

Liars get their lies out and even people who know the truth will repeat them and manipulate the truth if it paints them or their position in a favorable light.

Oh and newsflash Mrs. Edwards... not only did John Kerry whip Edwards in the primary, Edwards didn't even help win his own state in the General. He would have been crushed in the general election. For proof of how different they are look at how Kerry bitchslapped Dubya in the debates and Edwards was too nice and let Cheney walk on him and lie directly to him in their debate.

Rp

[TayTay]

14. that's a class-less thing to say

especially about someone who was so good to her, according to her own words, when her cancer was revealed.

I think less of her for this now.

[WilliamPitt]

16. Funny

A lot of people see Kerry as stiff on the stump. But I've met a lot of people who got to spend random time with him - cab drivers, regular citizens (and myself) - who found him a chill, regular, beer-drinkin' kind of fellow.

[blm]

20. Walter Shapiro's book about Dem primaries came to that conclusion, too.

That it turned out Kerry was the one you wanted to spend time drinking beer.

[TayTay]

40. So did I when I had a beer with him.

Well, he was paying, so maybe that had something to do with it.

[WildEyedLiberal]

100. As someone who has spent random time with him -

I completely concur. I thought Elizabeth Edwards had A LOT more class than this. Color me disappointed.

[Imagevision]

114. Kerry, one too many Bonesmen seeking the presidency

[WilliamPitt]

126. Like clockwork

:eyes:

[WildEyedLiberal]

163. Imagevision, one too many addled conspiracy nuts posting on DU

[blm]

18. This reporter led her with the questioning. Sad. The Kerrys do have alot

of money NOW, but is there no value to growing up a diplomat's son? Or captaining your crew through dangerous missions? Or targetting more government corruption than any lawmaker in modern history?

Or growing up traveling from village to village with your father in Africa tending to the sick and infirmed who had no access to medical care?

Or translating for UN officials?

I hope Elizabeth's real message was different and the reporter juiced this up to stir controversy.

[Roxy66]

19. She's not a bullshitter guys.....the truth hurts.

Yes, Kerry is a good guy, but most Americans do not relate to him....those who are on the "fence"

[Mass]

27. Too bad the polls and the people who met him generally do not agree.

[LordLovesAWorkingMan]

36. Too bad he can't meet everyone.

Too bad people form impressions by looking at pics of the guy on the slopes, out on the water, and so forth. Elizabeth Edwards doesn't have to be Ghandi to make a decent point.

[Roxy66]

43. Yes, be defensive...

but it does not change the fact that he could not rally more votes from these stupid people that voted against their best interests.
I have a co-worker with whom I get along great and she comes across very liberal in light conversation. We had never spoken about politics in general but, one day she brought up how broke she is and how it's nice to see gas prices come down, and I responded by suggesting it's not a coincidence and hinting at how corrupt this Administration is. She responded by saying she didn't know who to vote for in 2004 and she regrets voting for Bush. I responded by saying something like...OMG, how could you vote for that guy? and she said "he came across as a RICH GUY who wanted to take away her husbands guns". I said....No he hunts too! You actually bought into the media bullshit?!!.....then I had a customer that needed assistance. But, it made me realize how gullible the American people are. She said she doesn't really follow the news or politics....she probably caught some sound bite and it stuck. Sounds like a lot of people in this Country.

[Mass]

52. I am pointing to facts and numbers, not at anecdotal evidences.

[wisteria]

74. You ignore the most obvious fact about the election- the war and

the impact it had on people's decisions. Fear, Fear, Fear. It is not Kerry's fault that he couldn't stop the color codes terror alerts or the tape by Bin Laden. He tried so hard to convince people to come over to the right side, but unfortunately, when people are caught in a terrifying situation,they stay where they are sometimes, because they can't muster up enough courage to grab onto the hand that wants to help them.

[Roxy66]

175. He didnt fight back hard enough...Period

[wisteria]

194. Obviously, facts don't matter. I disagree and think he did fight back. n/

[karynnj]

226. Historically, the VP is the bull dog on the ticket

[Catchawave]

274. Like Lieberman in 2000 ?

:shrug:

[karynnj]

317. In Lieberman's case, it may be closer to bullfrog!

[karynnj]

225. Did you ask if he would have voted for rich guy, John Edwards?

The fact of the matter is that Kerry easily beat Edwards in the primaries. In Iowa, Edwards benefited by an endorsement in the Des Moines Registar and the agreement with Kuchinich, but was still beaten by Kerry. Kerry and Dean were first and second in NH. Then there was the first multistate day - the states involved were much better for a Southern than a Northeasterner. They were SC, OK, MO, DE, ND, AZ and NM. Kerry won 5 out of 7, mostly by impressive margins. If Edwards couldn't win more of these states, where could he win?

I seriously doubt Edwards could have handled the debates like Kerry. The debates were not a sports game - winning them versus Bush - was not sufficient you had to do what Kerry did - blow Bush away. Edwards didn't come close to doing that with Cheney.

[benEzra]

319. That misunderstanding was the same that Kerry's advisers made...

She responded by saying she didn't know who to vote for in 2004 and she regrets voting for Bush. I responded by saying something like...OMG, how could you vote for that guy? and she said "he came across as a RICH GUY who wanted to take away her husbands guns". I said....No he hunts too! You actually bought into the media bullshit?!!.....then I had a customer that needed assistance. But, it made me realize how gullible the American people are. She said she doesn't really follow the news or politics....she probably caught some sound bite and it stuck. Sounds like a lot of people in this Country.

That misunderstanding was precisely the one that made the gun issue an albatross around the neck of Kerry/Edwards in 2004.

The gun issue is not about hunting guns. The vast majority of gun owners (4 out of 5) are NONHUNTERS, and of the 1 in 5 that hunt, many/most also own nonhunting guns. It was proposals to ban nonhunting style guns (modern-looking small-caliber rifles, precision target rifles, handguns), and legislate the shape of civilian rifle stocks, that gave rise to the "Dems'll take yer guns" meme in '94, '96, '00, and '04.

More background here (DU thread): Dems and the Gun Issue - Now What?

Dems REALLY need to understand this point. Hunting is almost totally irrelevant to the gun issue, and that is why the DLC's talk-up-hunting-while-demonizing-owners-of-nonhunting-guns strategy was such an unmitigated disaster 1994-2004.

[philgobluemi]

243. which polls would those be?

[seabeyond]

47. why... because people project something onto kerry not true. like her

she says it appears... but isnt the reality. she promotes the same non truth media promoted that allowed people to NOT relate to the man

[hopein08]

133. Not a bullshitter, but an excellent campaigner...

we all agree there, I would think.

[lumpy]

151. And that's the problem with 50% of voters

they want someone with whom they can share a beer, winks and a few laughs.

[karynnj]

221. The question is whether people saw John Kerry

or a media caricature.

I went to the September 9th Faneuil Hall speech. While standing out side the door, chatting with some fellow DU people, I saw a group of about 4 or 5 people go up to the Kerry staffer at the door, they explained they were Ethiopean immigrants who live in Boston and asked if they could speak to the Senator for a minute. The staffer immediately told them that the Senator was inside speaking to some school kids, but would be coming out soon and that he would talk to them.

When the Senator came out they spoke to him, I wasn't close enough to get the gist of what they or he said. What was clear was that their was a serious 2 way conversation. The Senator's demeanor was very respectful, serious and interested. They were clearly happy he spoke to them. This is a real public servant.

Last week, I thought of that when communicating about my opinion on the Pepperdine speech with a very religious person I knew. Insignificant though that interaction was, it reflected what Kerry said in the speech. In a way, because it appeared routine, it was more impressive.

"For you here at Pepperdine, it’s a time when you’re exploring your commitment to God, embarking on a journey to figure out how to lead a good life, how to translate your values—who you love, what you are passionate about, how you worship—how you translate that into the daily fabric of your existence.

One of my favorite passages from scripture, a familiar story from the Gospel According to Mark 10:35-45, sheds a lot of light for me on how to translate my faith into action.

< snip parable to comply with paragraph rules>
But Jesus responds with an essential lesson. He contrasts greatness in the Kingdom of God with Roman political power. While greatness in the Roman Empire is based on brute force—lording it over those less fortunate for the worst possible reason—simply because you can, greatness in the Kingdom of God is based on humble service, on being servant to all.”


There were likely no votes here. Kerry had about an hour earlier given an intense brilliant speech on Real Security, he then spoke to people in the hall including a group of Massachusetts school kids that he spoke to then answered questions. Later that afternoon, he was due at a get out the vote rally at UMass Amhearst.

[earth mom]

22. Edwards has a right to say if Kerry is out of touch.

Which no doubt Kerry is. Hell, he proved it to me and to all of us when he wouldn't fight the stolen election even though he should have! It was obvious that Edwards wanted to fight, while Kerry wanted to cover his own ass and look good-just like the rest of the heartless and soulless politicians in D.C. Kerry did not honor the commitment he made to fight for EVERY vote and when he did not, he not only screwed us all over, but he screwed Edwards over too. :puke:

So, good for Edwards! Give me someone who is honest and has integrity any day! Edwards has both these virtues as does Gore, Conyers, RFK Jr. :applause:

[ShortnFiery]

28. There's absolutely no integrity in back-handed comments during

interviews. I didn't have a strong opinion one way or another about Edwards. However, that snide remark may change things depending on how far she goes. :thumbsdown:

[philgobluemi]

244. If we want to win elections

we need to engage in ruthless criticism and self-criticism. Politics isn't a garden party.

[bpeale]

48. I agree

Having met both Edwards & Kerry, I would rather have a beer with Edwards. He is so in touch with how the poor and middle classes live. Inspite of how much money he has, he hasn't lost the common touch. I would vote for him anytime, anywhere.

[lumpy]

159. It takes an UNCOMMON man to do one of the most

important jobs in this country. Bush conveyed to some that he had the 'common touch' and look what kind of a job he done for this country. Bush has exhibited that he has no clue about how the bottom class lives, but by God he is someone you could 'share a beer with'. Do you really believe an intelligent person like Kerry has no idea of the struggles that the poor and disinfranchized go through in this country. Edwards may be an honest man who has something in comman with the average Joe, but he has yet to convince many of us that he has the experience and vigor that is necessary to lead us in the right direction. I am not advocating that Kerry should run, by all means. Gore or Clark would be my choice because they have had considerable experience politically and socially. Hope we have a better choice than Edwards.

[cadmium]

188. For what it is worth

Bush is the one pundits said people would want to have a beer with.

[LibraLiz1973]

271. Having met Kerry & Edwards

I personally preferred Edwards. It's not that I thought Kerry was a dick or a loser or anything like that- not at all.
I just felt connected to Edwards because we share common life experience. As someone who grew up dirt poor I felt like we had more in common.


Again, thats MY feeling. Of course everyone doesn't agree. And again, I thought John Kerry was a lovely man.



Also from personal experience I can also say that during the campaign I did hours and hours and hours of phone calling for the K/E campaign and I got ALOT of flack about how rich Kerry was, especially when I was calling less affluent areas.

That said, I also got a lot of flack about Edwards from a bunch of people in the medical profession who fell for the REpub line that Edwards was personally responible for raising malpractice insurance.

[blm]

78. That's a myth that Edwards wanted to fight and Kerry didn't. They were

both in serious discussions all night with the Dem team of ELECTION EXPERTS AND LAWYERS - the same team who told Gore he had a case to continue, told Kerry and Edwards they HAD NO LEGAL EVIDENCE or LEGAL CASE to continue in court.

Why spread a myth as if it were fact?

If Edwards had the evidence necessary, they ALL would have gone to court. He didn't. Kerry didn't. The election lawyers had no legal evidence in hand.

If Edwards WAS so seriously concerned about the evidence, he hasn't shown that concern on the voting machine issue.

I hope he joins the other Dems who ARE trying to make it a national issue for serious reform. I expect he will.

[earth mom]

146. Not spreading anything here.

Just saying what was a common opinion around DU and elsewhere after the stolen election. I'm certainly NOT the only one who felt it was up to Kerry-NOT Edwards-to show some guts and do the right thing-FOR THE PEOPLE-who not only supported him and voted for him, but also gave him LOTS of money to challenge the results. Didn't he have something like 3 million left to do so?! Also, I'm sure many of us remember the look of surprise and outrage on Edwards face when Kerry conceded the election without a protest! It was horrible moment of betrayal and many of us cried-including me.

Anyone who read the election forum here on DU for the days and months after the election would know that there was plenty of evidence of vote tampering to investigate. I'm sure many DUers worked overtime to get this truth out to Kerry, which he and his advisor's most obviously ignored. How many of us held on to the hope that Kerry would soon find reason to protest what was obviously a stolen election?! Yet Kerry DID NOT and NEVER WILL despite ALL the evidence!

Instead, the only voices standing up for the voters in protest were John Conyers and then a year later, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. who wrote a piece about the stolen election in Rolling Stone! Why are they doing the job Kerry should have done? Hmm?!

Yet, now you expect Edwards to be the one to investigate the stolen election?! WTF?! After Kerry slammed that door shut the way he did you expect Edwards to do Kerry's dirty work for him?! C'mon now! Give me a break! :eyes:

[Tellurian]

207. Yup, right On...GR

[DemDogs]

224. Fact not fiction. Truth not myth.

You are mixing up the facts here.
On election night, the question was not whether to continue a court case, which is oddly what you are talking about. That was the next month. The question on November 3-4 was whether to concede before all the votes were counted. Edwards said no. Obviously Kerry said yes.
And what you are saying makes no sense. Are you really suggesting that on November 3-4 election lawyers said Kerry have no leg to stand on to wait until the votes are counted before conceding? That would be myth.

[blm]

229. Wrong. They were discussing what the numbers would look like and

what if any case they would have to continue in court. Michael Whouley was the numbers cruncher participating there.

[machka]

287. does this count?

from October 2005: Edwards statement on the Voluntary Voting System Guidelines

To be fair, that's really all he's had to say about voting reform. :shrug: He's spent more time recently campaining for national Dems and working on poverty issues.

[philgobluemi]

240. More to the point

was the kite-surfing. A smarter candidate would have gone camping with the family. Americans just aren't impressed by Brahmin / Limousine Liberals. We've got to figure that out.

[Mass]

23. Sad comments. I have a lot of respect for EE, but this is a stupid

comment. Kerry was the son of a civil servant, just as she was!!

[Bunny]

25. I think people here are being a little hard on Elizabeth Edwards.

The comments that she made re: Kerry being rich and maybe out of touch were in the context of that being how Kerry was painted (by the Republicans of course). She added that it wasn't a fair conclusion.

And as far as Kerry's lifestyle - yes, he is in fact very, very rich. He has luxurious homes and splendid things. Elizabeth and John choose not to live that way, but I don't think she's implying that there is anything wrong with how Kerry lives.

I don't know, I just read the excerpt in the OP, but I don't think E.E. and J.E. deserve to be excoriated for this.

[Connie_Corleone]

39. I'm surprised by the reaction in this thread to what she said.

I didn't think she was bashing Kerry or his lifestyle. She pointed out some differences between them. So what?

[Tellurian]

209. Mobs generally are Blind to facts if they don't follow their version of

reality...

[beachmom]

60. Sorry, she has a nanny and domestic help

That ain't the way normal people. As a SAHM, I winced watching those poor kids, stuck in a van all day, because their father had such high ambitions, and couldn't WAIT until his kids were older and he has, I don't know, some foreign policy experience. She has one hell of a nerve acting like Kerry is out of touch, when she lives as the lady of the house while others do all the work.

If she apologizes I'll consider forgiving such petty remarks and withdraw my own.

[Bunny]

67. Perhaps a closer examination of what *she actually said* may

help you to feel better about this.

[Roxy66]

69. Oh...brother....sigh

The outrage!!

[tkmorris]

190. She didn't say what you think she said

You are being tremendously unfair. I supported Kerry too but let's not be so reactionary.

[Shakespeare]

227. Ah, THAT'S the word I'm looking for: reactionary

Thank you, tkmorris. That is precisely what's going on in most of this thread, and at the expense of a truly good woman.

[philgobluemi]

247. Disgusting Comment

As a parent, I really am disgusted by your self-discribed petty comment. John and Elizabeth wanted to make America a better place for us, our kids, and their kids.

Honestly, engage in some real political critiques, not this mud-slinging.

[LostinVA]

108. Totally agree, Bunny

[hopein08]

129. True, but she could easily have responded to the "painting"......

without mentioning how she knows the artists of her paintings, shops at Target & eats at Wendy's. It was slightly tactless. She is just giving the "painters" more fodder.

And in re: to Kerry's "luxurious homes"...the house that E.E. & J.E. lived in in D.C. was originally listed for sale by them for over $6 million. I read once that their Raleigh home was valued at nearly $2 million. They have a beach house for the "poor man's" vacation. And the land that they bought in Chapel Hill to build a house (with a guest house for their oldest daughter) on was bought for over $1 million.

So perhaps they don't deserve to be excoriated, but they should at least be examined.

[Bunny]

136. I don't know why they need to be examined at all. She wasn't

ragging on the Kerrys, but everyone has sure interpreted it that way. She was simply stating the truth about the relative wealth of her and J.E. as compared to that of JK and THK. EE and JE are certainly not hurting for money, but they are nowhere near as crazy-rich as JK and THK.

And furthermore, she actually *does* shop at Target and eat at Wendy's, so really, what is the BFD???

[WildEyedLiberal]

167. The thing that galls most of us, I think...

... is that they DO live that way. The Edwards' don't exactly live in a shack. I think it's really facile and insulting for her to imply that she's just like you and me because she shops at Target. I don't shop at Target because I love it so much, I shop there because it's affordable. I think she's patronizing middle class people by implying that they can "relate" to the middle class because they shop at Target and eat fast food, as if those things are integral to the identity of middle class people.

Believe it or not, though I think her comments about Kerry were pretty tasteless, it galls me more that she's being so patronizing of middle class people. I hated that crap when Bush did it ("see, look at me, I'm a regular guy because I wear cowboy hats and like NASCAR") and I still hate it now.

[DemNoir]

26. Ridiculous Questions!

Sadly Elizabeth Edwards plays right into the interviewers hands, I thought she was smarter than that.

So Bush isn't from a privileged background or have a plush lifestyle?

Elizabeth should have gone after the ridiculous premise of the question and destroyed it at the base.

[Chemical Bill]

130. Time magazine strikes again.

I'm with you. Some "liberal media".

Bill

[lumpy]

160. Time has never been a liberal rag.

x

[qanda]

29. I don't exactly get what's wrong with what she said

The Kerrys have a lot of money and a lifestyle that goes along with it. Wasn't it obvious? :shrug:

[rockyandmax]

34. It is the dissension I don't like

[Roxy66]

45. Remember....we are Democrats. Dissension is o.k.

[LostinVA]

110. It's an artificial dissension created by the writer

Elizabeth Edwards did NOT say what some on this thread think she said. You have to read the context.

[seabeyond]

44. except even with that, kerry policy proved he was connected

to common man. beyond what his lifestyle. i think that says a hell of a lot for kerry

[qanda]

71. But isn't that *exactly* what she was saying?

"He was certainly able to be painted as someone who didn't understand what people did with their free time or what their concerns were when they sat around the table. But I don't think that if you looked at his policies you would have found that to be a fair conclusion.

[Shakespeare]

80. Yes, it is. But let's all overlook that and just attack her instead. n/t

[LostinVA]

111. Tell me about it, Shakespeare

[lumpy]

164. She did have enough sense to acknowledge

that Kerry even has policies. Sorry, she did some damage to her husbands ambitions to gain the WH By even mentioning the differences in lifestyle and what Kerry does with his free time is feeding into the impression that Kerry has no sense of the wants of average people. By stressing that the Edwards eat at Wendys' and shop at Target is a political slam. I would think after all this time putting up with Bush's 'common man' touch, that any politician's wife would realize that this phony ploy won't work any longer.

[seabeyond]

106. this is what i am saying but i think she is fooling herself to

as she goes on to say the difference is she is blessed and shops at target. i know what she is saying, i have money and i dont waste it or have great needs, r spend it. i too shop at target when i can easily shop at chicos. but the point it she is in her sentence absolutely proving kerry is connected as she implies he is not. the issue wasnt kerry. the issue was how media and repugs were allowed to paint him otherwise regardless of his lifestyle.

and i am not beating elizabeth up for what she says,but i think even she is eluding the point, to match a preceived image of kerry

[Lone_Star_Dem]

32. Political strategist at work?

Are the Edwards out to show how they've retained some of their old roots and how not like Kerry they are? Or was this just a question she wasn't prepared to answer? When all is said and done her husband still has ambitions to run for president in 2008 and her words were chosen to help him.

It's all fine and good, but it still turns me off.

[hopein08]

137. She probably should have been prepared to answer it as the question...

referred to her writing about the Kerry's plush lifestyle. So it must be in her book.

Turns me off too.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

265. I don't know what is in her book

But after I read it I'll be able to make a more educated decision I'm sure.

[DemDogs]

228. Or was it edited by Time for maximum effect? (n/t)

[Lone_Star_Dem]

264. Possible, very possible.

The attempt to manipulate how we perceive is big business, isn't it?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

35. yes because clearly Bush comes from poor people...

its not like his father has money

its not like his father wasnt president

its not like he went to yale

[jillan]

38. Nothing like dems trashing other dems NOW

That is one thing - probably the only thing - that repukes have over us.

They never eat their own. Look at Allen, you don't see other people from his party in the media trashing him.

The Edwards were lucky Kerry chose them. I was hoping for Clark.
And looking back, I don't think Edwards added much to the campaign.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

284. Herding cats is more difficult than herding rats.

But definitely more entertaining.

[seabeyond]

41. she syaing, attack for the appearance... but reality, kerry policy

proved otherwise.

she is saying because of kerry lifestyle one could say he was not connected to common man, but could be argued otherwise thru his policy. so conclusion ... whether he was "connected" thru living experience or just damn smart and perseptive, he was still connect to common man because of the policies he advocated

seems like a pat on the back to kerry in my view

[Island Blue]

42. "Some people say ...:

Time: Some people say that if your husband had been at the top of the ticket in 2004, he could have beaten George W. Bush.

While other people say, if John Edwards had defeated Kerry in the primaries, he could have been at the the of the ticket. Jeez.

Other than that, it's a shame really. I thought Elizabeth Edwards had more class than this. Guess I was wrong, How sad.

[seabeyond]

50. i noticed that too. radar up with "some people say" so tired

of friggin some people say

[cadmium]

187. Whenever someone says "some say"

Or when they say "some would say" or "some on the left would say"

The only answer is with a question "who would say?"

[Lex]

46. Are we attacking the truth of what she says, or the fact that she said it?

:shrug:

[seabeyond]

51. i am attacking she says the appearance of, though not the reality

thru his policy. she says he isnt connected cause of lifestyle. though his policy shows otherwise. then... he is connect... a duh. regardless of his lifestyle

[bpeale]

54. AMEN!

[TayTay]

57. The fact that she said it

She is a classy woman. This is not a classy thing to say. I am very disappointed in her for saying it.

[Shakespeare]

58. THANK YOU!! And please also notice....

...that Elizabeth Edwards was DEFENDING Kerry's policy proposals. Her point--which apparently 99 percent of the people on this thread missed--was that even though Kerry may not have been able to identify with your average lower-middle-class Americans, his policies were still crafted to be beneficial to them.

Yeah, I'll say it--Kerry is a rich mofo (for whom I VOTED, thank you very much), and his lifestyle by its very nature precludes his being able to identify with "the little guy." That, however, does not mean he can't be a good populist democrat (ref: Plato's ideal of the beneficent philosopher king). And while the Edwards certainly aren't hurting for money, they live in a completely different financial universe than the Kerry-Heinzes.

For crying out loud, guys.

[seabeyond]

61. who is to say he couldnt identify. if policy matches i say he does

identify. to me it sounds like it is just perception..... which isnt a reality

perception dems,media and repug might have given kerry that is false

[Roxy66]

64. Perception..... is all that matters when it comes to winning an election.

[seabeyond]

66. so big deal kerry war hero preceived as traitor. it becomes his reality?

fuck that shit, wink

[Roxy66]

72. Look...he knows who he is. He just needs to convince other people.

[seabeyond]

107. and when the media actively puts out only the republican talking point

of who he is, do tell how he is going to be able to do that. my point, you think it will be any different with any other dem. we had better understand regardless, the repug will paint who the person is, and that is what media will give to the people. all us that listened to kerry, and went to the rallys knew who he was.... all those americans that watched tv werent given the opportunity

dean
mccain
cleland
clinton on fox show painted as crazed.
hillary the devil

the next person we get will get the same thing

[Roxy66]

63. Thank you Shakespeare!!!! Some people hate it when valid points

are made when they are not what they want to hear.

[bleedingheart]

75. if anything...it was the fact that the media centered in on how rich Kerry

is and they have never really leveled with the American public on how very rich George Bush and his family is...

In the end it was media distortion and the public suffers from such a severe lack of attention that they forget that most men who have run for and won the presidency have been wealthy men..either self made or inherited..

The few men who were not rich coming into office ended up rich because of it...

George W. Bush (inherited wealth)
Bill Clinton (Not wealthy from birth, but is now wealthy due to Presidency)
George H. W. Bush (inherited wealth)
Ronald Reagan (made his money in films and got wealthier as he aged)
Jimmy Carter (not very super wealthy)
Gerald Ford (not super wealthy...but presidency enriched him)
Richard Nixon (presidency made him wealthier..didn't come from money)
Lyndon Johnson (married money and made money)
John Kennedy (Born into money)
Dwight Eisenhower (selfmade man...but not super wealthy)
Harry Truman (not wealthy but left comfortable by presidency)
Franklin Roosevelt (inherited wealth)
Herbert Hoover (wealthy ..I think self made)

[Bunny]

81. You're right, but I would quibble about one thing.

She didn't say that he was unable to identify with the average American, she only said that he was able to be painted that way:

"He was certainly able to be painted as someone who didn't understand what people did with their free time or what their concerns were when they sat around the table."

99% of people commenting in this thread have misinterpreted her comments, and harshly denounced her. She's a DUer, people. If you're going to criticize her, at least get it right for chrissake.

[Shakespeare]

87. Well said, Bunny. n/t

[Bunny]

89. Thank you, Shakespeare.

:thumbsup:

[Roxy66]

92. Well said Bunny... n/t

[Bunny]

99. Thank you, Roxy.

:thumbsup:

[Puglover]

155. Bunny why is this simple simple

point eluding so many smart people?:shrug:

[Bunny]

174. I guess it's the need to knee-jerk react and go off the deep end,

with very little actual cause. :shrug:

[Puglover]

177. Well SOMETIMES it can be fun.

But only if you are smart enough to know that you are knee jerking. :evilgrin:

[lumpy]

180. She didn't articulate in a very intelligent manner.

If she was trying to explain why Kerry wasn't as popular as Geo.Bush, she missed the point entirely. By her saying that he was 'able to be painted that way' indicates that Kerry enabled himself in not appealing to the 'common man'. It is clear by reading the comments in the article she was making comparisons to lifestyles also indicating that Kerry's lifestyle is not commemsurate with the Edward's more common touch with the average Americans'.

[Richardo]

210. You're brilliant

:applause: :loveya:

[Bunny]

213. And *you* are brilliant to recognize my brilliance!

:loveya:

[Richardo]

217. I'm a magnificent bastard, or so I've been told.

:D

[Bunny]

218. A more magnificent bastard has never been born!

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

83. Or the hypocrisy of the one that said it?

I vote for the second two. As far as "truth" is concerned, Senator Kerry has done far more for and with working class people than just about anyone.

[Democrafty]

95. And he's done it without tearing down other Democrats and their efforts.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

97. Which is something a lot of the DU "Heroes" could learn from.

I'm looking at you, Kucinich and Feingold.

[flordehinojos]

53. i like this paragraph a lot.

": You write about the Kerrys' plush lifestyle. How would you describe yours?

Edwards: It's a different kind of luxury, I think. I know the people whose artwork is on my walls--they're not the old masters. I shop at Target. We eat at Wendy's. Even though we have a lot and I feel very blessed, we are basically the same people we were when we first started out and made, between us, $28,000 a year."

"shop at target. eat at wendy's, know the people whose artwork is on my walls.. we are basically the same people we were when we first started out and made, between us, 28,000 a year"

those words resonate loudly and clearly in my soul. elizabeth edwards is saying she is an ordinary human being. one of us. and she has a every right to say what she said. we--except for the ruling elite--are a nation of ordinary people. she is one of us.

[seabeyond]

59. yet she states, regardless, kerry policy represented exactly

what you are wanting. so.....

pissed cause kerry doesnt shop at target, an assumption on my part

[flordehinojos]

68. no. i don't think so.

she is responding to the differences between the edwards' and the kerrys.

she is defining who she is and in making that defintion she is illustrating how, and in what way, she and john edwards are different from tereza heins kerry and john kerry.

it is also true that kerry had a great deal of trouble connecting with a lot of people in the beginning of his upsurge in the democratic primary run--and that it was only after he upstaged howard dean and john edwards that people turned to him.

and i think she is saying that looking at kerry's priveliged background against his voting record one would find a great disparity when one and the other. i think she is saying that people would find that he is a people person.

[seabeyond]

113. kerry's priveliged background .... kerry grew up middle income

maybe upper middle income. that was the absurdity about this kerry privilige thing. bush was the one raised with money, not kerry. more buying into what the republican created kerry as, not the reality of who kerry was. he spent a period of his life running a small business. he already was connected. later years marry heinz and allowing that "priviliged" background does not make the man.

[beachmom]

70. God, you're naive

I saw Oprah shopping at Walmart on TV. That did NOTHING to dispell the fact that she is . . . Oprah, and does NOT lead the same life as all of the other shoppers at Walmart.

The difference between Edwards and all other Target shoppers is that she doesn't have to look at the prices. She doesn't have to worry about paying the bills. That's a BIG difference.

John Kerry actually goes out and talks to the voters and LISTENS to them, and drafts legislation to make their lives better. He doesn't need to go shopping at Target (what will Mrs. Edwards do next -- have a photo op of her shopping?) and quite frankly, I would rather him be WORKING considering his demands as a senator than going on errands just to prove a point.

Hey -- wait a minute. Someone saw him shopping at a drugstore in Georgetown once. I guess that makes him normal . . . puhleeze, this whole line of questioning was beyond dumb.

[flordehinojos]

76. no. i am not naive.

i suppose that we are listening to elizabeth edwards on two different levels. the fact that she goes to shop at target and eat at wendys' when she COULD go anywhere else tells me that she never made use of the silver spoon placed at her reach.

as far as listening, perhaps you never saw her LISTENING to the people who approached her during john edwards' campaigning thing. i did. she listened. and those who went up to her knew that she listened.

the fact that you would prefer kerry over edwards should not make you so disdainful of elizabeth edwards and her downhome taste.

[beachmom]

84. Before this remark, you wouldn't catch me dead criticizing Elizabeth

I was highly impressed with her during the campaign, and worried about her when she got cancer.

But this remark is just ridiculous and shallow. Your taste in products is irrelevant. She still lives a life of luxury -- what does it matter which luxuries are important to her and which aren't. She still has help caring for her kids with money being no object. That immediately would put a "wall" between her and me. But I'm willing to overcome that if she has something valuable to say. Dissing John Kerry with that remark creates yet another "wall" between her and me.
I thought it was uncalled for.

[lumpy]

184. I have known many wealthy people who are

as tight as wallpaper on the wall. Doesn't mean a damn thing. As for listening to people, any person out on the campaign trail knows enough to listen, even if it goes in one ear and out the other. But to get down to brass tacks, IMHO, Gore, Clark or Kerry would have a better chance of winning the gold. Some loosely aligned Repub voters disillusioned with Bush might be interested in Edwards but McCain, if he wins the nomination, would be more appealing to the true Bush supporters.

[Shakespeare]

85. You miss the point.

The point is not that Oprah or the Edwards don't have to look at the prices now. The point is that earlier in their lives, they DID have to watch their money and shop carefully, so they have the real life experience of being on a budget. Kerry never has. THAT creates the perception--whether anybody likes it or not--that he's out of touch.

And, one more time, Elizabeth Edwards was defending Kerry's policies, not tearing them down. Just because one comes from a privileged background doesn't mean he still can't govern for the people.

[Democrafty]

90. There were periods of Kerry's life where he didn't have much money at all.

Frankly, I think the point here is not who did have money or didn't, but who is using money/lack of money to play identity politics.

[beachmom]

93. Then you know nothing about Kerry

He's had many times in his life where he didn't have a lot of money. He worked summers during college stocking shelves. He lived in a not that nice an apartment at Watergate after his divorce. His family was middle class -- his father was a diplomat on government salary. His mother, although an heiress, had to share it with 11 siblings. The only reason he went to private schools was due to a rich Aunt who had no children who paid for it all. He certainly lived in a life surrounded by rich people, but he and his family were not particularly rich. It is only since the mid '90s that on his own and with his marriage to Teresa that he no longer had to worry about money. I doubt he would tell you all of this -- nobody wants to brag about less prosperous times, but this info is all contained in his biography.

EVERYTHING Kerry has done in his career, he has EARNED it with HARD WORK. He never used connections to go up the ladder.

[Shakespeare]

101. "His mother, although an heiress...."

Dear lord. IT'S THE PERCEPTION, which is exactly what Elizabeth Edwards was pointing out.

"The only reason he went to private schools...."

I'm not suggesting Kerry didn't work hard for what he's achieved, but he most certainly came from a privileged background. I LIKE Kerry, but I'm also not going to sit here and pretend that he's some sort of up-from-the-bootstraps type, because he ISN'T.

[WildEyedLiberal]

179. Well, speaking only for myself here...

I am not going to make the argument that Kerry wasn't privileged - even not being wealthy as a child he did have terrific connections. BUT - to me - the point here is that Elizabeth Edwards is trying to set herself apart by saying that, unlike the Kerrys, she shops at "real people" stores like Target and eats "real people" food like Wendy's, and the fact that they don't means they don't connect as well to the "common man."

Personally, I just hate being pandered to in that way - it's terribly insulting for someone to imply that they are "just like me" despite being worth millions just because they shop at some discount chain store. As if Target and fast food are the defining characteristics of middle class people. In my opinion, making a point of shopping somewhere just to make a point about how "average" you are is far more patronizing than shopping at a designer or luxury boutique. I know if I saw someone I knew to be vastly wealthy shopping at Target, I'd probably wonder what their motives were - because I know if I had that kind of money I'd never shop at Target or eat fast food ever again. It just rings false.

[Shakespeare]

231. Hell, I would.

I love Target. If I won the lottery tomorrow, I wouldn't stop shopping there. And I'd keep right on eating Taco Bell, too. Because I like it. Because it's been part of what I do for way too many years to suddenly decide I'm above all that. THAT is what Elizabeth Edwards' point is--and those are valid cultural touchstones, whether you like it or not.

And for the record, Bush never claimed to eat at Wendy's or shop at Target--he's been utterly unabashed about his life of privilege, and never claimed otherwise.

[hopein08]

145. Maybe she is one of us---but that answer was pre-campaigning at its finest

look at how many times the Wendy's anniversary thing was brought up during the campaign. And I heard about Target a time or two as well.

But here's a thought, I shop at Wal-Mart, eat at Wendy's, and the artwork on my walls is all done by me, my sister & my dad. Neither I nor anyone in my family are qualified to be president.

I also find it hugely hard to swallow the Wendy's/Target/artwork trio. I think the bigger point is if you could afford fine dining/high end clothes/and old masters. Which the Edwards' can. I know that I would spring for the second three if I had Heinz money. And you won't ever convince me that Elizabeth & John Edwards don't too.

[HuskerDU]

55. Damn it! We had a combat vet (Kerry) and a pull-yourself-up-by

the-bootstraps guy (Edwards) vs a duo who did neither. Focus on that!

[seabeyond]

62. i hear ya.... so RIGHT ON

[Democrafty]

56. Sorry, but that's just not cool.

Even looked at in the best possible light, it's terribly shortsighted. When has "I shop at Target" ever made a wealthy person seem less like a wealthy person? People who are convinced she has to much are already convinced of that.

[wisteria]

65. Well, you don't have to start out with nothing to understand and

sympathize with those less fortunate than yourself. Thomas Jefferson was a rich man who was viewed as a man of the people. How un classy of a woman I thought better of.
I also know people such as the Edwards, that like to pretend they are like everyone else when actually they aren't. I want to see her wear one of her Target purchases. She is the one who comes off as a phony.
Truth is, her husband's, "sitting at the table speeches" got very tiresome after awhile and really didn't represent the middle class. Most of the people I know, don't have time to sit around the table and discuss their situations. They are to busy holding down two and three low paying jobs just to make ends meet.

[beachmom]

77. The example of FDR puts her arguments to shame

FDR was not only rich -- he was the only child and quitely frankly, a spoiled brat who only thought about himself. The polio and his time spent in Warm Springs exposed him to the downtrodden and poverty stricken. Even then, he still remained selfish, yet that knowledge helped him later on.

And we all know that NOBODY helped the poor more in this country than FDR. He was FAR more elitist than John Kerry could ever be.

[machka]

289. Honestly now

Truth is, her husband's, "sitting at the table speeches" got very tiresome after awhile and really didn't represent the middle class.

He is not focusing on the middle class as it is. He's focusing on it as it could be - on helping those folks who have to work two and three jobs to be able to earn more (raising the minimum wage) and not spend so much on important things like health care (universal health care coverage); to help them join the middle class and live the American dream. Helping those people out of their hard place is the difference between the Two Americas he talked about on the campaign trail, and the One America he's talking about now.

[Fleshdancer]

73. Breaking News: A wife thinks her husband was better than the other guy

This thread cracks me up. If I were in her shoes I would think the same thing. We probably all would. My bet is that Theresa Heinz would disagree as well as all the other wives of all the other primary candidates.

[Roxy66]

79. BINGO!!!!! Thank you!

[Mass]

82. The remarks about Wendy and Target are phony. Even if she goes, it is by

CHOICE. We, poor mortals, go there because we NEED too, and most of us probably would not go if we could avoid it.

This shows how out of touch SHE is.

[conflictgirl]

158. That doesn't even make sense

You're saying that her populist cred doesn't count because she has a choice about whether or not to go there? So are you saying instead that she should hire people to shop there for her because she can afford to?

There are a lot of rich folks here among us at DU, including EE (though I am most definitely not one of them) - are you saying that none of them can understand those of us who have less money either?

[WildEyedLiberal]

181. Not to speak for Mass here, but...

For a lot of us, it's patronizing for someone of wealthy means to insinuate that they are "like us" because they shop at Target and so on. On the contrary, I think wealthy people are perfectly capable of understanding the situation of less wealthy people, and I'm not saying the Edwardses don't. BUT for her to proclaim that she shops at Target like it makes her closer to the "common man" is, in my opinion, pandering.

Cool avatar, btw, I love AFI.

[Freddie Stubbs]

86. And so the 2008 Presidential Primary season begins

[leftchick]

88. I remember seeing her at Target in Raleigh!

When Jack was just a baby! These people are about as real as you will ever see a politicians family. Folka like this in public office are very few and far between now.

[lumpy]

200. I don't give a hoot if she shops at Target.

What I give a damn about is whether her husband has leaderhip qualificatins as good or better as those who might aspire to the presidency. In examining Gore's, Clarks, Kerry's qualifications, does Edwards measure up? Sure the average voter might prefer the 'common touch' guy, but I would hope they would look beyond the surface. But politics doesn't always work out that way. Right, we got Geo.Bush the guy that some value for his down home phony personna, qualificatins be damned.

[Kali]

91. I don't see anything really wrong with her comments but as usual

the Dem missed the chance to rag on the puke-in-office instead of another Dem.

"Sure there are some differences between us (the Edwards) and the Kerry's, but lets talk about the fake imagery of GW, shall we? - Now here is a real out-of-touch moran who likes to portray himself as on of the guys....lets talk about what really being out of touch is....here is a Connecticut bred son of privilege that likes to pretend to be a texas brush farmer..."

[Roxy66]

96. He's affaid of Horses....LOL!!

:rofl:

[benny05]

98. The Title of this Thread is Misleading

And so is the interviewer's question about the plush lifestyle.

What are the differences in how the Kerry's and Edwards' spend their respective wealth, since Edwards has said he was blessed with everything he could want--is more appropriate question.

Now let's look at EAE's answer again:

EDWARDS: It's a different kind of luxury, I think. I know the people whose artwork is on my walls--they're not the old masters. I shop at Target. We eat at Wendy's (on their wedding anniversary, which they do each year--it's in the book--poster's note). Even though we have a lot and I feel very blessed, we are basically the same people we were when we first started out and made, between us, $28,000 a year.

Where they haven't changed either: Elizabeth still wears the $11 ring John gave her when they married. But Elizabeth and John will tell you they just built a new home and there's quite a bit of space in it on a good chunk of property outside of Chapel Hill, not too far where JRE works at UNC-Chapel Hill.

In nstead of passing judgment on both Kerry and Edwards' campaign, which many of us at the DU have strong opinions about, it's more important to focus on that Elizabeth is well, and how the Kerrys were very supportive of them when they found out that Elizabeth had cancer. It was heartbreaking for all of them (and to all of us) to lose an election and have to whisk Elizabeth off to Mass General to confirm their worst fears: she had breast cancer.

I suggest reading her book, Saving Graces, to get a better look at them and at her as a person, and to watch Oprah Winfrey's show today. See earlier thread here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2232520.

[Kerry fan]

102. IMO, John Edwards added virtually nothing

to the campaign, not even his own home state. I, also, wanted Kerry to pick Wes Clark. Was extremely disappointed when he picked Edwards.

I also read that Edwards was polling low in his state as Senator and not expected to win re-election to the Senate.

[BlueStater]

117. Yet another unnecessary attack on Edwards

As the VP candidate, he isn't supposed to have much of an impact on the election. There is absolutely no proof that Clark, who has never held any political position or been elected to anything, would have tipped the corner in Kerry's favor.

I'm really disapointed in people who are now bashing the ticket. I think most people (the sane ones) who voted for Pretzel-Pacemaker now realize they made a serious mistake.

[Kali]

119. Pretzel and Pacemaker

:spray: :rofl:

[aikoaiko]

103. these comments are gentle and true. they are about perceptions

no backstabbing here.

[grasswire]

104. too bad it was Reagan's rule...

...because it is a rule Democrats should follow. It has worked for Republicans for decades.

NEVER SPEAK ILL OF FELLOW DEMOCRATS. (Okay, Joementum is an independent.)

[WildEyedLiberal]

105. I really resent such pandering to the middle class

I HATE HATE HATE when ANY politician says things like "look at me, I'm just like you because I shop at Target/drink Bud Light/eat at Wendy's/watch NASCAR!" It is pure classist pandering and frankly insulting to the intelligence of middle and working class people.

"Awwww shucks, Pluto! (insert name of opportunistic politician here) shops at Wal-Mart and eats at McDonald's JUST LIKE ME! Welp, I think I'm gonna vote for him cuz he's a reg'lar fella just like ME!"

It is SO beyond condescending, and quite frankly, I can't believe anyone on our side is saying something like this. This is the exact same kind of class-based patronizing that Bush employed when he ran his entire campaign on the lie that he's a "regular good ol boy" who has a ranch and is just like you n' me. Yes, I shop at Target and eat at Wendy's because I'm po' folk and I do love it oh so much, so I really identify with a rich politician who CHOOSES to shop there just to show me how similar we really are! Does she really think middle-class people define themselves by shopping at Target and eating fast food? Give me a break.

I've met John Kerry and he's one of the most down-to-earth, genuinely unpretentious people I've ever met. He didn't condescend to me by bullshitting about how much he likes Applebee's and Target just like the middle class peons like me. He has a lot more respect for working class people than that. I thought Elizabeth Edwards did, too.

[machka]

290. Money changes everything...(or not...)

I HATE HATE HATE when ANY politician says things like "look at me, I'm just like you because I shop at Target/drink Bud Light/eat at Wendy's/watch NASCAR!" It is pure classist pandering and frankly insulting to the intelligence of middle and working class people.

begging gentle pardons... I honestly don't see where she is saying that. I think she felt that the reporter was asking her to contrast her life with the Kerrys' life - she replied that "they live differently," is all - not that the Edwards are better because they do those things, just that they're different. To her, her life is just as luxurious as the Kerrys' - but it's different in the way the Edwards do things. She was in no way slamming John or Teresa for having money, or for the possibility that the Kerrys are living more richly (they have every right to!) - she's just saying, "this is how we live - we haven't changed; in cares, concerns, personalities, etc, we're still the same people deep inside as we were back when we got married."

But that's just my perception of what she said. Obviously, everyone else's MMV.

[nini]

112. Is it not true?

There is some truth to it. Doesn't mean Kerry wouldn't have governed as a clueless rich idiot - but he does have a lifestyle most of us can't even dream of.


Perception is part of the game.

[Mass]

116. So do the Edwards, whatever she wants to say.

Sure, there are probably differences in the way they live, but I doubt we can imagine how any of them live.

[nini]

121. There is a difference between them though

don't forget Teresa Heinz-Kerry's money - it puts them a bit above the Edwards. But overall, both couples are doing pretty stinking good.

[Imagevision]

115. Really! I agree, is what Edwards say not truthful?!!

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

171. No, it's not truthful.

And it's hypocritical to boot.

[lumpy]

118. I think of FDR, a person of privilege, who

was one of our better presidents. He was hardly one of the'common'people, but he had a solid understanding of the adversities of the common people. Personal philosopies and values, intelligence, and life experiences contribute to the makings of decent leadership. I think Mrs. Edwards shows a certain shallowness by making comparisons between the Edwards life style and those of the Kerrys'. By trying to imply that financial struggle and eating at Wendy's and shopping at Target would indicate that her husband has better leadership qualities is at best disingenuous and a sort of political mongering. At least she concedes that the fact Kerry leads a more privileged life does not diminish his policies. Still, making that comparison strikes me as a political cheap shot.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

172. Couldn't have said it better.

[Puglover]

122. I really wonder if many DUers

don't have reading comprehension issues. EE doesn't ANYWHERE say that the Kerrys were out of touch. She says that they were able to be "painted" as such. Seriously do 1/2 of you people even READ the damn article? Do you honestly NOT think that THK doesn't have old masters on her walls? She inherited a very large and very old fortune folks. No where does EE diss this she simply states a fuckin fact. She is simply saying it was easier for the Pukes to show Kerry as out of touch. And they did.

Meanwhile 1/2 of the sheeple out there think Georgie is a real live Texan Rancher. Something we at DU bitch about all the time. Christ. :mad:

[Bunny]

131. Stop trying to inject truth and context into the discussion, Puglover.

You are getting in the way of their self-righteous and misguided rants. Sigh.

[Puglover]

150. I really wonder if

people know what the word "context" means sometimes.

[Democrafty]

135. We know THK has Old Masters. Dutch, in fact.

It's well documented. And, IMO, she is welcome to them.

As an artist, I count myself as "regular" American whose ability to make a fair wage is impeded by stores like Target. Hearing that somebody buys stuff probably made from sweatshop labor does not make me feel better about her husband and worse about John Kerry. Sorry.

Shopping at Target doesn't say anything about who a person is. Making a big deal out of the fact a person does or doesn't shop at Target may say quite a lot.

[Blaukraut]

138. well said, Democrafty n/t

[Puglover]

148. She made a point. How is this eluding you?

Show me where she made a "big deal" about it. And nowhere does she (or I) say you should feel worse about John Kerry. What she said and I'll repeat it again. It was easier for the other side to paint THK and JK as blue blooded east coast elitists.

[Democrafty]

152. I know she made a point. Just because I don't like it doesn't mean

it eludes me.

Target and Wendy's are a big problem for me. So I take issue with what she said. I always take issue with going down the road of the "I shop here, I eat there, Walmart is normal, organic beef is not" logic that keeps infecting politics. I'm sorry she felt the need to make a comparison at all.

[Puglover]

153. Now on that I agree with you. Making the comparison wasn't

wise as it is able to be taken in different ways. However I simply do not buy that she was in anyway trying to claim the moral high ground or a closer affinity to the average American. She's a brilliant woman and not so thick as to think that doing that would not come off well.

[machka]

293. She was *asked* to compare them.

If she hadn't been asked that question, I doubt very highly that it would've ever come up - it's certainly not likely she would've gone out of her way to make any comparisons btwn the Edwards and Kerry families without that prompt. Elizabeth was set up - she was there to talk about her book, not the past.

[lumpy]

191. Edwards not-so-subtle life style comparisons

indicates that the Edwards feel that having wealth is political baggage and that is why Kerry didn't heavily carry the vote. The fact is Edwards doesn't have to make comparisons to gain support, merit workd. The Pukes will find something to smear Edwards with. Doubt it will be his wealth.

[WI_DEM]

127. It is true it would have been harder to paint the Edwards as "out of touch

than it was the Kerry's. They would have gone after Edwards in a different way. Given he only had one term in the Senate to his credit they would have hit Edwards with being too inexperienced to be president especially in a 9/11 world. Of course, that is as much nonsense as Kerry being "out of touch" because I would say that Edwards' six years in the Senate was worth more than Bush's six years as a figure-head governor.

[Marie26]

132. She's basically right. nt

[ecstatic]

140. True, but this is not why Kerry lost--so she is wrong to suggest

that his background was part of the reason why he lost.

I can think of so many other reasons: tampered voting machines, prejudices against his appearance, swiftboaters (and not fighting fire with fire), not fighting the 'flip flop' image with more vigor... yada yada yada

[conflictgirl]

157. I knew a lot of people who did dislike Kerry for exactly that reason

There may have been a whole lot of other reasons, like the ones you mentioned, but there were indeed many people who thought Kerry was unable to identify with the common man (and woman). Note that EE didn't say that was true about Kerry, just that he was able to be painted that way. I campaigned for Kerry and encountered a lot of people who did believe he was out of touch.

[blm]

223. Just as they would hearing about ANY Dem targetted by corporate media.

Kerry got it just as Gore got it and just as Clinton got it. Clinton was impeached. They gained a new tactic of using the corporate media to attain their goals. So, then Gore got impeachmented. Then Kerry got impeachmented.

Nothing new. Except with Kerry they added the extra tactic of rigging voting machines to their roster of vote suppression tricks, because he pulled in more votes than any candidate in history.

He really smacked Bush down in the debates while maintaining total grace.

[FrenchieCat]

143. Elizabeth and John will be on Ophra today......

so it will be interesting to see if either one of them get into what's different and kinda of better about them compared to others Democratic politicians (here's hoping they don't go there, even if asked).

I will say that the Edwards have each and combined a compelling narative of their lives and a fantastic PR machine. However, I am far from convinced that Edwards would have done better than John Kerry, had he been on top of the ticket in 2004. Considering that the election ended up focusing on a War President and the issue of National Security, I don't really see how John Edwards would have fared better than John Kerry.

In reality, we will never know how the media would have deconstructed John Edwards had he been on top of the ticket, because he wasn't (and looks like the media didn't feel the need to focus on john Edwards in 2004, which is why they didn't...which is why he can deflect blame for the loss back to John Kerry and act like he was barely on the 2004 ticket, so he's that much more viable for 2008).

So for me, speculation without rationalization beyond he could have won because "he connects" doesn't quite do it....cause he didn't "connect" as claimed in 2004 with folks who elected him to the senate 6 years before, i.e., he didn't win his state (and being VP on a ticket has got to mean something unless it is not "convenient", I guess.)

In my mind, John Edwards never convinced me that he is as sincere as what a lot of people believe. His poverty stance is admirable and a wonderful thing, but he is not the only one concerned with poverty or the only one doing something about it; yet many believe that he is the only one that speaks on the issue.

I conclude that the Edwards have to do a lot more than talk about their eating at Wendy's and shopping at Target in order for me to believe that they "connect" with ordinary folks better than other politicians and that somehow this is all one needs in order to win a national election, no matter what is actually happening in terms of events at the time.

[Sensitivity]

147. It was 1 year into a WAR! EE should have said it was a stupid question

War and terror were the subject of the election. A sitting Pres at a time
of war can effectively control the agenda and has about a 10 point advantage
going in to the contest.

Edwards would not have a had a chance in hell. He added nothing to the
ticket. It was amazing that any Dem candidate could do what Kerry did in
the polls against the sitting President and his terror alerts.

I think Kerry actually won, and no other candidate could have done better.

[Coexist]

149. John Edwards could have beaten Bush?!

Please. That is just silly -who are these "some people"?

He is a good man, but hardly Presidential material. Dick Cheney handed him his ass in the debate.

[BlueStater]

165. Bush isn't Cheney

I still think the debate was a tie and am curious as to why so many DUers think Cheney "handed him his ass". I think expectations were extremely high for Edwards that night after Kerry completely obliterated the Chimp in Debate 1.

As for Bush, Pee Wee Herman could beat him in a debate. I don't Edwards would have the smallest bit of trouble against that moron.

[karynnj]

154. Clearly designed to push her husband's candidacy

The last part is pretty disingenuous. They had little money the year they left law school. How many years did it take before they were worth over a million dollars? John Edwards was a very successful attorney - it didn't take long.

So, for most of their adult lives they were members of the upper middle class, then the wealthy elite. Now, how does this compare with John Kerry:

- Kerry was born to a woman who was a descendant of many of the families that build Massachusetts. His dad, a talented lawyer, chose to work as a diplomat - making a government salary. The family was not wealthy, but was extremely well connected. An aunt paid for John Kerry's education at some of the finest schools in Europe and America. His dad's job and his family connections gave him an extraordinary childhood where he met many of the most famous politicians in Europe and America.

- Kerry attended schools where he and a few scholarship kids were the only ones who didn't have access to a lot of money. Unlike most of his friends, he had a summer job and a part time job during his college years to earn pocket money. Kerry, to his credit, never tried to argue that he was not born wealthy. I assume the reason is that he knew he did have more than average and more importantly, though not wealthy as a kid, he was extremely well connected. Graduating college, especially after becoming a highly decorated war hero, he could have used those connections to get a job that would make him very very wealthy.

- Unlike Edwards, when John Kerry graduated law school, he went to work for the Middlesex DA's office. His salary was well below what he could earn in private practice. He became the first deputy and in addition to being an excellent prosecutor, he set up the first rape counseling office, a victim rights program and worked with underprivileged youth to lower the risk of juvenile crime. Kerry, his wife and daughters likely lived on far less money at this time when he was in his mid 30s than Edwards, the trial lawyer did.

Kerry did later work for a few years as a trial lawyer and made very good money, but he very quickly decided that the work was unsatisfying and returned to public service as Lt Governor. Shortly afterwords, John Kerry became Senator.

During the first decade that John Kerry, in his 40s, was a Senator, he was one of the poorest Senators. The expense of having apartments in Boston and DC, child support, and the cost of traveling between Boston and DC every week to be with his daughters was extremely hard to meet. One Boston magazine in 2004, had a small item in one column where a current resident in one of the apartments Kerry rented joked that when he heard Kerry had lived there, he couldn't imagine that Kerry could ever have lived in the very small apartment that he found too small. As whatever savings he had were used up and Kerry had to depend on his salary alone, he dropped one apartment or the other and slept on friends' couches. His Senate work and being with his daughters were clearly the most important things in his life. Oh, in his 40s the Edwards were living the wealthy life their earnings gave them.

John Kerry did eventually inherit money when his parents passed away and he married Teresa.

Looking at their lives, it was John Kerry who had to consider the cost of things much more often in his adult life than John Edwards. It was John Kerry who had a genuine calling to spend his life in public service and made sacrifices to do it. Maybe Mrs. Edwards needs to look beyond the mythologies that exist as to her husband's life and John Kerry's life, because it seems neither are what they appear. She might also consider that "niceness" was one of the qualities that people liked in her and her husband.

[conflictgirl]

156. I think she's right

I don't see it as backstabbing. Even when Gore ran, he made efforts to distance himself from Clinton's so-called moral failings. In hindsight, that was probably a mistake because Clinton was very popular. But the VP candidate is always in a difficult position because they are tied to the presidential candidate.

For better or worse I think it is true that many voters felt that Kerry was out of touch with the common man. Bush won in part because he seemed like the type of guy voters would like to have a beer with. That is an unfortunate comment on what American voters want out of a president; I personally would rather have a president who is smarter than me. But the American public wants someone just like them, even if they have to put on a phony "man-of-the-people" persona like Bush did. I campaigned for Kerry and there were many people who told me they didn't like Bush, but they thought Kerry was too much of a Boston blue-blood type. Face it: that's not what people want. People say they want Joe Six-Pack for a president, so they vote for a guy who pretends to be just that while simultaneously enacting legislation to oppress the real Joe Six-Packs out there.

[Roxy66]

176. Point on!!

[wisteria]

192. That was unfortunate, because he really isn't like that. n/t

[benny05]

166. This is ridiculous!!!!!

And this thread, as well as the reporter who asked that question--and we don't know if it answered that way or asked that way-- was designed to pit Kerrycrats against the Edwards people. Stupid.

Let's move on. She's well, thank goodness, and she was grateful to the Kerrys for the support they gave her and John when they needed it. Read her book, it is actually very good.

Many of you are in it by your first name as she mentions the hundreds of people who sent her prayers and thoughts. You don't know it until you have read the last couple of chapters.

[Strawman]

170. It's not fair, but she's right

Edwards had the most persuasive message and the common touch.

[RB TexLa]

178. I'm sorry but where does the idea that a President should be personally

connected with the middle or lower class come from? What's next are people going to demand only candidates that went to community college? A smear campaign saying that candidate A once drove through Harvard and is too uppity to vote for?



:shrug:

[WildEyedLiberal]

182. That graphic....

... is what awaits us if Felix Allen somehow attains the White House.

Totally agree with your point, by the way - yes, I do realize she said that Kerry's POLICIES weren't out of touch, but the whole tangent about shopping at Target lost me. So what? How does shopping at Target make you more "in touch" with the middle class?

I know if I had the money I'd shop somewhere where NONE of my purchases were made with sweatshop slave labor.

[Blaukraut]

193. Thank you so much for that graphic!

You gave me the biggest laugh I had all day. This is one picture I'm saving to my folder :rofl:

[Karenca]

198. right-----that kind of thought

is what makes the assholes vote for bush.

So they can have a beer with him.

[Snivi Yllom]

183. I'd take Elizabeth Edwards any day over Teresa Heinz

Down to earth vs. the country club.

[WildEyedLiberal]

199. It's obvious you know nothing about Teresa Heinz Kerry n/t

[Snivi Yllom]

206. Teresa Heinz is about as warm and cozy as an iceberg

Elizabeth Edwards is flesh and blood with emotions people can relate too.

Heinz might as well be a space alien.

[Mass]

208. What? First time I see this type of description of her.

[philgobluemi]

241. Really? The first time?

Because watching her at the Convention and then at a rally in Grand Rapids, Michigan was painful.

[Mass]

245. Except in the RW rags in Boston, yes.

It is clear that she is not the type of woman who is going to swoon in front of her husband, but do we really need that.

I remember the same type of negative comments made about Judith Dean for the same reason: she was her own woman and it seems to disturb a lot of people that a woman can be independent.

[philgobluemi]

253. that's just flabby thinking

Elizabeth is as independent and as successful a career-woman as they come, yet she is able to be that and come across as an intelligent person, engaged in politics, who relates to the common American. It's not a fear of independent women, it's that she came across as very aloof. Trust me, I watched her at the GR rally, I was about 10 feet from her, she looked like she would rather be anyplace but talking to Americans. The sunglasses, the not looking at Kerry, body language, the absolutely unpolished speaking skills. It was physically painful.

And, please, I'm a life-long Democrats.

[LibraLiz1973]

276. I'm just going to say that THK's speech at the convention

was not heartwarming-
after that I took alot of shit from people asking me why I would consider voting for K/E when it would make\
"That woman" first lady.


For what its worth, I'm from Philadelphia and alot of people seemed to resent having the Heinz name put into the campaign.

[Tellurian]

306. Good point..

The swagger of the Heinz name so dominant throughout the campaign
was a turnoff. :(

[Tellurian]

212. What struck me about T.Heinz..

is she is one high maintenance Lady.. She drained her husband emotionally.
My pedigree is as good if not better than hers and if it were my husband
seeking the Presidency, I would have the wherewithal to put myself second
to his political aspirations.

I supported Kerry throughout his campaign until the end. Believe me, every
time I knew Teresa was accompanying Kerry at an event, I stayed away..
Every time Kerry tried to make an important point during his speeches, Mama T
was pointing to herself. They belong right where they are. Kerry in the Senate
Mama T at home. She maybe the nicest woman in the world but no one ever took
the time to teach her self-discipline and manners and it reflected badly on Kerry.

Elizabeth's opinion is very kind to the Kerrys. The Kerrys should be thankful,
John and Elizabeth are a classy couple. Head and shoulders over the nouveau riche.

[Snivi Yllom]

214. exactamundo

.

[Tellurian]

251. agreed, Yllom Snivi

:hi:

[Blaukraut]

236. you're using all the republican talking points about Teresa

'high maintenance', 'drained her husband emotionally', 'she should stay at home' etc.
As to what you claim to have seen Teresa do ata JK event; that sounds highly unlikely. I've seen them both at many events and never once has Teresa ever claimed the spotlight from John Kerry. Not even with the faintest gesture to draw attention to herself.
That she is a strong woman in her own right is something to admire, not disdain. She is a strong, outspoken individual, and has a big heart to match. And THAT is something I've experienced firsthand from the lady.
I also admire Elizabeth Edwards. She, too, is a strong woman in her own right and is just as outspoken. Neither of the two should be condemned to an existence at home, muzzled and diminished.
Do you prefer a Stepford clone like Laura Bush?

[Tellurian]

250. Excuse me? Those are MY talking points..

and my own thoughts typed into print.
Just a reminder to you, whoever your rudeness is..

Don't Ever try putting words in my mouth again..
afaic, this conversation is over..and you sir, are dismissed!

[Blaukraut]

257. ok, first of all - I was not rude in the slightest.

Second; I did not put a single word in your mouth. I quoted you literally from your own post. The fact that your thoughts happen to coincide exactly with the republican talking points used against Teresa during the election isn't my fault. Third; Don't threaten me with 'don't ever'. Your irrational response to my post is seriously over the top, and consequently of little value other than me having to correct you on a few false claims.
As to your gender assignation by calling me 'sir' - allow me to specify that I'm a woman.
Finally, I agree about the conversation being over now, but not because you decided to 'dismiss' me (one of two laughs I got from your post) but because you add nothing of any consequence and value to a civil discourse.

[LibraLiz1973]

277. i agree, I felt THK was a black mark against Kerry

I know literally DOZENS of Dems who literally refused to vote because they loathed her

[REP]

314. The Edwards ARE Nouveau Riche

It means "new money." They reek of it. Kerry comes from old money, and is not nouveau riche. If you're going insult someone, learn how to do it properly.

And I'd much rather spend an afternoon with Theresa Heinz Kerry than Mrs Edwards.

[Adelante]

325. OMG

:eyes:

This whole thread is most peculiar, but that post tops all. Do you read a lot of romance novels?

[WildEyedLiberal]

233. I reiterate: you obviously know nothing about Teresa Heinz Kerry

But you've revealed a lot about your own odious character. How vile and despicable for you to advance your candidate's agenda by making a personal attack on another candidate's WIFE. I may disagree strongly with what EE said in this thread but I wouldn't call her an "iceberg" or a "space alien." That takes a real absence of any moral fiber and common decency - congratulations. You are officially the lowest common denominator of DU.

[Horse with no Name]

185. I'm sorry

I will give Elizabeth Edwards the benefit of the doubt.
Has anyone thought this might be an artistically licensed edit hack job?
It's Time magazine for God's sake.
Nobody will remember the retraction, just the story.

[Name removed]

189. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Puglover]

197. Jesus Christ

You are embarrassing. She is a DUer. How totally fucking low rent can you be?

[Blue-Jay]

202. Just wait. He can probably top that.

:eyes:

I've seen it happen before.

[LoZoccolo]

232. Maybe she shouldn't player-hate on John and Theresa.

That's low rent...or at least lower than the Kerrys' rent. Cha-ching!

If I got all up in Time magazine talking a bunch of junk about a viable Democratic candidate for President, I wouldn't expect to be immune from criticism here, and neither should she.

[Puglover]

316. And maybe you should hone up on

your reading comprehension skills before you dish out moronic ad hominum attacks. Try reading the article in context.

[PhilipDC]

195. Edwards

So some of you met Kerry and he was very down-to-earth. That's great! But to people that have never personally met him (which is most of the country) he comes off as somewhat aloof and the Republicans definitely capitalized on that. That's what Elizabeth Edwards was saying! She also said that her policies contradicted that image. Now, maybe she fell into a trap a bit with the Wendy's and Target stuff, but so what? I swear some people on here just have to get outraged at everything!

[WildEyedLiberal]

201. Welcome to DU

Kerry comes off as aloof because of our piss poor media, which, rather than report an unedited view of the candidate and let people arrive at their own conclusions, decides on the "narrative" immediately and reinforces it ad nauseum. They decided that Kerry v. Bush was going to be "aloof wealthy elite vs common man," so that's all we heard day in and day out from the punditocracy. Also things such as this that reinforce that because he's wealthy, he's somehow "different" than us. Elizabeth Edwards could have contradicted the media's bullshit, but didn't. Mainly I take issue with her insinuation that shopping at Target makes her more "like us." I hate being pandered to in that way. I'm not really outraged; more like disappointed.

Welcome to DU, though.

[LibraLiz1973]

279. i think we can ALL agree that Buscho used the Kerry Heinz $$ against K/E

It was used ad nauseum!! They made Kerry sound like a pampered rich boy. Remember the windsurfing ad? The Buscho Halloween spent dressing up like Kerry "pretending" to hunt was awful.

Of course the MSM never reported on the fact that Bush was a mucher richer SOB who didn't show up for National Guard Service and got away with it BECAUSE HE HAD SILVER SPOONS COMING OUT OF HIS MOUTH AND HIS ASSHOLE.

[Karenca]

196. Not professional --

Why did she say that?
I thought she was smarter than that.

[cornermouse]

203. Elizabeth Edwards has class.

I like her.

[FrenchieCat]

205. Yes Elizabeth does have class, and so do a whole lot of women.......

However, doesn't mean that sometimes they aren't motivated to say things that they understand may advance their ambitions.

[cornermouse]

211. Lots of agenda going around DU right now.

Elizabeth Edwards is just the latest victim.

Why anyone would want to attack her is beyond me. She's extremely smart, socially adept, happily married. Everything considered a great example of how we would like our daughters to turn out.

[wicket]

220. Amen

Well said. :applause:

[DemDogs]

216. I think you are misreading this

I think she was saying that the Kerrys were obviously vulnerable. Look what the Repubs did, but she said that it was unfair, that his policies show that.

Honest as usual.

[jeffrey_X]

219. Why is she proud of the fact they ate fast food?

:shrug:

[MethuenProgressive]

234. She's living in FANTASY LAND - dumb ass moron...

Time: Some people say that if your husband had been at the top of the ticket in 2004, he could have beaten George W. Bush.

E. Edwards: It would be hard for me to say that I didn't think that was true.

Whatta freakin lunatic. John Dukaksis-in-short-pants Edwards was the absolute worse choice ever, even worse than Geraldine Fararro, as a veep candidate. If we had Wes Clark instead of John JustATrivaQuestionAnswer Edwards on the ticket John Kerry would be President today. The guy and his wife are circling the drain, good bye, good luck, and close the lid, will ya?

[philgobluemi]

242. Yuk

I like Wes Clark, but a lot of Clarkistas really turn me off him.

[Inspired]

270. Who are you calling a dumb ass moron?

YOU are in for a rude awakening.

John Edwards WILL be the nominee in 2008.

Mark my words and save your name calling for the Republicans. How could you go so low? I have never been so disgusted with a fellow Democrat in my life.

[VOX]

281. You've got an amen, Inspired. I'm right with you. n/t

[MethuenProgressive]

282. Mark *your* words?? Mark this:

The 2004 Democratic Convention was the high point for What'sHisName Edwards political career. He'll be lucky to get booked on The View in 2009.

[Catchawave]

275. Note to self....

Don't support Clark. thank you MethuenProgressive :hi:

[MethuenProgressive]

283. Fine by me.

I support Kerry in '08, even if he did screw up royally by picking a third rate no-body for his rum=nning mate. Let's hope he gets better advice next time.

[Crunchy Frog]

286. It's sort of an automatic reflex among a few posters here

to blame Clark supporters for everything. I'm sorry that you ended up being a target.

[Tom Rinaldo]

315. You gotta be more sophisticated than this

DU has, what is it? Something over 90,000 members? There is less screening involved in being a DU member than there is for getting a drivers license, and a hell of a lot of people who I don't much care for have one of those.

If someone makes a post on this message board that you personally feel is obnoxious, whether that poster was sincere or not, whether that poster was in a foul mood that day or always acts like that, you would let comments made by that one or even several anonymous posters determine for you which Democrat you will rule out voting for at a future date? Because of who THEY say they support? That is a wide open invitation to abusive troll manipulation of our message boards, and don't think the Republican party is below trying to get us pissed off at each other by doing just that.

I'm not saying that the poster you are pissed at wasn't sincerely stating their personal opinion, but that person isn't asking you to vote for them. What did Clark do today that pissed you off? From what I can tell Clark made no comments about either Elizabeth Edwards or John Kerry's life style. And for the record, few identified Clark supporters have either on this thread.

[TheMadHatter]

324. Good point

I'm one of those oft-maligned 'moderates', and if I based my Democrat affiliation on the posts I read on DU and elsewhere, I'd probably not be a Democrat for long. A good 60% of what passes for discourse on a lot of boards can be boiled down into "I hate you/them" or snide comments that border on troll behavior.

Thick skins, people, thick skins!

[VOX]

278. Possible that Kerry's near-win was *because* Edwards was VP candidate?

You never know. Edwards may have given the ticket a strong boost. He is a good liberal Democrat, and one hell of an effective communicator. (I know, I've seen him in person twice, and have been amazed.)

In fact, Edwards may be the Democratic presidential candidate in 2008. Will you be supporting him then?

On edit: Not to take anything away from Kerry -- I like him, and I'll vote for him should he be the 2008 candidate.

It's Democrats vs. Democrats that I don't like.

[guajira]

248. I Thought Kerry's Problem was Choosing Wrong VP Candidate

I never understood why a rich white male lawyer Senator would choose a running mate who is a rich white male lawyer Senator!!

[mnhtnbb]

259. Edwards was not the problem. Kerry didn't go for the jugular against Bush

just like Gore didn't. If the Dems are going to have any chance at winning when you know the Repubs are controlling the vote counting, they have to take off the gloves and get down and dirty.

[karynnj]

288. I think his point is that traditionally it's the VEEP

who is the bulldog going after people - preserving the President's stature.

[MethuenProgressive]

285. Absolutely!

Would Kerry have been so effectively attacked by the SwiftBoaters if Wes Clark had been the veep candidate? You need a strong veep, one who can stand up to attacks and defend the top of the ticket. That Edwards person was nominated and... what? Gave out ribbons at the State Fair? A really poor choice by Kerry.

[nam78_two]

254. Aside: Kerry's record on the environment is much better than Edwards

I like Edwards but I think in 2008 we need a Dem who takes environmental issues seriously.
Which is why I think America needs to re-elect Gore...

Just look at all the studies coming in. We need someone for whom the environment is a priority-without that,the rate at which Americans consume and with India and China catching up and taking the cue from the US, we will leave nothing for future generations.

That seems to me like trangenerational tyranny :(....

[philosophie_en_rose]

255. Can any of the critics actually read? She did NOT attack Kerry.

1. she answered a question about what people attacked Kerry for. She also expressly disagreed. But I don't think that if you looked at his policies you would have found that to be a fair conclusion.

2. she answered a question about her life versus an "old money" lifestyle. so what? They eat at Wendys. what's the problem? fatty fries?


This is one of the stupidest so-called controversies I've ever read.

[aaronbees]

295. Exactly!

There's a whole lot of willful misrepresentation of Elizabeth Edwards going on in this thread, as well as a few stupid potshots lobbed toward the Kerry crew. Dumbest thread discussion ever, IMO, and that's saying a lot considering some of the non-issues that have grabbed the DU issue-of-the-day zeitgeist lately.

It's a real shame because John Edwards and John Kerry are both fine people and seeing DU-ers prattle on like this over nothing is just disheartening.

[wordpix]

256. can't believe that the Edwardses are living like they did on $28K/yr.

In DC, they'd have to be living in the worst part of the city with another family on that salary, and driving a 1980's Honda Civic.

I can't believe it.

[Mass]

258. This is definitively not what she said. She said she felt the same person

That may be true.

[yodermon]

272. This is the Stupidest Fucking Thread I've ever Read.

goodbye.

[Rose Siding]

273. Insightful observation. Thank you, Elizabeth

Be well :hi:

[Ameritopia]

294. She made some very rude comments

About The Cheney's being ashamed of their daughter too during the last campaign. I thought it the time that those comments were way off base and totally unnecessary. these comments too.

[Unbowed]

296. Interesting change of perspective from right after the election when

her kids spent time at the Kerry's with Teresa and brought home fresh-baked cake. The Edwards had a home in the exact same neighborhood in Georgetown, so apparently the outside of he house or the neighborhood wasn't a problem as long as the artwork inside was inexpensive. :eyes:

I guess a lot more will change when it gets closer to 2008.

One of John Kerry's favorite restaurants is the Union Oyster House in Boston and I've eaten there. I make far less than 28K and I thought the prices were reasonable. And isn't Burger King one of Kerry's favorite places to chow down? Is Burger King is more elite than Wendys? Dave would turn over in his grave if he heard that!

JK happened to marry a woman with 4 houses that belonged to her late husband. I understand why THK keeps them. They belong to her children as well as to her. They shared these homes with their dad. Personally, JK owns half of one house in Boston.

[Laurab]

320. That would be the house he mortgaged to run for President

wouldn't it? He took a bit of a risk from what I understand. I was impressed by both of his daughters when they spoke at the convention - they were obviously brought up well, and obviously loved their dad very much. Intelligent and articulate, as well - quite a contrast compared to the first twins.


Welcome to DU, btw! :hi:

[Unbowed]

327. That's the house from what I've read.

Kerry's daughters and the obvious love they have for their dad says volumes. I feel sorry for the first twins; talk about being born under a dark star.

:hi:

[Hidden Stillness]

300. WHY are People Attacking Her for This?

This is a very strange and unfair thread, and look, the plants and Republican operatives have come to join the attack. For all those who seem baffled at why Elizabeth Edwards mentioned that they eat at Wendy's and shop at Target, gee I don't know, perhaps the fact that the reporter asked her, "How would you describe yours (lifestyle)?" The whole Q&A was full of leading and slanted wording, "Kerry's privileged background...," "the Kerrys' plush lifestyle," etc. I don't know what other quotes would have been possible under this restricted and slanted format, or how anyone with any reflective thought could believe that this represents Elizabeth Edwards's complete, or even truest, range of thought on any of this.

If you caught the interview on Wednesday's "Oprah" with the Edwards family, you know how intelligent, deep, and caring they all are, or if you heard them on the campaign trail. I'm also perplexed at how a website full of people who have themselves analyzed why John Kerry might have "lost" (assuming it happened), and how much of the opinion centered on Kerry's image as a rich person disconnected from middle class and poor concerns--however fake--would then attack someone for even mentioning it here. I really don't get this attack on someone who did nothing but describe, accurately, her family's lifestyle.

I remember a lot of snide, rich corporate media innuendo that the Edwardses were not up to the "classy league" of Kerry and Teresa Heinz. Then they would turn around and attack Kerry for exactly the same thing but reworded: now it was "removed," "doesn't care," "dilettante," all so they could present George Bush, the biggest phony of them all, as "one of the people." What a God-damned tragedy, and it was all just flipped back and forth as a game.

[Ameritopia]

323. Because

our mommas told us: "If you don't have something nice to say...don't say it."

[Dem2theMax]

312. .

[ShaneGR]

313. Rude, backhanded, BUT TRUE....

The lady told it like it is. Seriously, is anything she said about Kerry untrue?

[AtomicKitten]

329. I have to agree.

The impression remains and Elizabeth Edwards talking about it doesn't change that. I think blaming the messenger is a bit unreasonable particularly when this stuff is the red meat of primary battles which, let's face it, are heating up. Once our nominee is chosen, this would be out of line; until then pretty much anything goes and, in all fairness, this was mild compared to other chatter on the circuit.