Question: Is Haggard a fraud or was he conflicted?

[Quixote1818]

I think he did believe in what he preached but he was tormented and conflicted by his religious teachings and his desires.

I could be wrong though. The fact that he did crank makes me wonder.


Edited to clear up my point.

[LordLovesAWorkingMan]

1. My vote is for FRAUD.

He bought and took crank, for crying out loud.

[hobbit709]

2. You've heard of the "oldest profession"?

Well, this is the second oldest profession and it's less honest.

[seabeyond]

3. they lie to themselves to justify the hypocrisy, so i can see fraud and

believed.

[Sparkly]

4. I think the real immorality was misleading thousands of people

Leading people to think being gay is "immoral," and mixing up his "religion" with politics.

[Quixote1818]

6. Good point! nt

[BOSSHOG]

5. He's a "christian"

It doesn't matter what the fuck he did. He will be forgiven by the congregation and in their sick minds he will go to heaven. And this is the kind of people who want to replace the constitution with the bible. Haggard is a republican, he is a template bush supporter, standing for george, kneeling for cock.

[Richard Steele]

7. FRAUD. Never trust a "preacher" wearing a Rolex. nm

[Quixote1818]

8. Have you watched him argue with Richard Dawkins?

I would have said fraud but he really looks and sounds like a fundamentalist through and through in that video.

Here is the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkUi6dhwWx0

[DemocratSinceBirth]

9. The Man Is Not A Fraud... Any Psychiatrist or Psychologist Would Say He's Conflicted.

At war with himself...

It's sad...

[Quixote1818]

12. Yes, reminds me of the movie "Far from heaven".

You are right that it is sad. I actually felt for him when he was being interviewed in his car with his wife and kids. Yikes!

It reminds me of the movie "Far from heaven" and the gay Father who was so conflicted. It was sad what happened to the wife and everyone around them. The poor wife was stuck married to a man who was not attracted to her because he felt he was supposed to do what society foist upon him. She ended up alone with everyone against her because she fell in love with a Black man.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

15. The Sad Thing Is Very Religious People Reject Psychiatry And Psychology

eom

[Quixote1818]

20. It would be great to see Haggard accept his homosexuality

get the help he needs and perhaps in the future educate the public about what he went through and how he was brainwashed.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. That Was Dennis Quaid And Thankfully A Bygone Era..

eom

[jannyk]

10. Absolute Con Man - as are all the holier than thou bible thumpers.

Try this bible quote on for size "Beware False Prophets".

[Olney Blue]

11. FRAUD. FRAUD. FRAUD.

:grr:

[mockmonkey]

13. He conned everyone else

Now he's trying to con himself into thinking it wasn't gay sex.

[Lars39]

14. He's a fraud hoping he'll be able to talk his way back into power.

Read the Harper's article about him.

[BlackVelvet04]

16. I think he is a sad, conflicted and tormented human being....

His belief system tells him it is a sin to be gay and yet he obviously is. He can't change being gay but he is too frightened to change his belief system. If he does he believes he will go to hell.

It's a very sad situation and I feel very sorry for his wife and family.

Is he a fraud? I don't know. The danger for ALL of us is casting stones when we are not without our own sins. You can call sin whatever you like but it doesn't change the fact that none of us is perfect and too often people become what they harshly judge.

[Quixote1818]

18. Nicely said. Thank you. nt

[riderinthestorm]

17. Con man. Fraud!

What about this man leads you to believe he is in any way shape or form a "real" Christian?

He's a huge Admin supporter with all of the attendant un-christian things being perpetuated by this Admin.

He lives like a fucking king which always sets off my bullshit meter with these made-for-tv preachers.

The hate speech delivered from the pulpit??!! That is not "christian". at. all. especially in light of his sex with the prostitute gigs. "Conflicted" doesn't mean having gay sex and then proceeding to spew gay hate as a defining part of your life's work. That's just sickeningly hypocritical and FRAUDULENT.

I could go on and on but I'm not sure why anyone ever would have pegged him as a "christian" in the first place. This guy seems to personify exactly the stereotype of a fraudulent "believer", even before this stuff.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

21. Put another check in the "FRAUD" column. I mean, come on. Really now.

[Quixote1818]

22. Ever seen the movie "Far from Heaven" with Dennis Quade?

It had some very powerful messages about this kind of situation. Gay people conflicted with their religious teachings.

The fact that he took crank makes me wonder though.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

31. I'd say he's the modern day Elmer Gantry. And not the only one, either.

http://imdb.com/title/tt0053793/

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

23. Just another blow dried, bleached teeth, fleecer of sheep.

They've been around since the first medicine man, shaman, priest, sold some poor sod a rock to ward off evil spirits or make God happy.

[Rosemary2205]

24. I think he's conflicted.

Because of the letter he sent to his church talking about a lifelong problem - I think his upbringing was toxic enough to form him into a conflict. The drugs, the acting out, the lies. It's just so classic.

If he gets REAL help (and I doubt he will because of the community he lives within) he could become a powerful advocate for human rights at some distant point in the future. -- But again, I don't see him breaking free of the toxic community he's currently a part of.

[TabulaRasa]

25. None of the above

He's an example of the well-established, psychological phenomenon known as projection ... people who loathe themselves, and locate everything they hate about themselves in the external world. They are usually megalomaniacal, hateful, and conspiracy theorists of the highest order, living in a fantasy world where everyone is out to get them and destroy all that is good and virtuous. Hitler was an example, J. Edgar Hoover, another.

Mark Crispin Miller contends that the entire "conservative"/Republican movement in this country is driven by this animus, down to the hard-core followers. And it seems like not a month goes by without additional confirmation of this theory. One month we have Bill O'Reilly on tape with a dildo up his ass, bragging about cheating on his wife with Thai hookers (possibly underage), during his wife's pregnancy. The next we get Mark Foley trying to diddle teenage boys. The cases just go on and on. The hatred, bitterness and constant anger are all the same. Just look at the posts at Free Republic. I'm guessing you'd have quite a few cases of people going back and forth between that site, and child porn (or anything else these psychos feel ashamed about, and rightfully so in that case).

Anyway, MCM has a terrifying quote about this situation (paraphrased badly by me): "When the object of your hatred is in the external world, you actually can locate it and destroy it. But when the object of your hatred is within yourself, the only solution is to destroy everyone and everything." And this is exactly what these people will do if they're not stopped. We can see the trend in their constant selection of new enemies ... from the Soviets, to Saddam, to Bill Clinton. Seriously, anyone who sees the devil in a hapless buffoon like Tom Daschle belongs in a straight-jacket. Anyway, I think it massively underestimates the danger they pose to call these people cynical, hypocrites, or to suggest that they are sincere Christians who have given into temptation.

[Quixote1818]

26. Interesting, Thank you! nt

[Rosemary2205]

27. Wow. Food for thought.........

Thanks

[riderinthestorm]

29. But whether they are really delusional or just faking it

it is still fraudulent (and criminal).

Great post though. And really insightful. My question though is how did we get to this point? Why are these times in such a place that has allowed this phenomenon("Mark Crispin Miller contends that the entire "conservative"/Republican movement in this country is driven by this animus<projection>, down to the hard-core followers")?

[TabulaRasa]

34. Good question

I wish I had an answer, as it would probably be a lot easier to unmake this movement if we knew how it was "made". But we can clearly say that the spread of fundamentalist dogma (including fundamentalist Islam ... the terrorists are mirror-images of these guys) has repressed healthy outlets for human sexuality, and other natural human desires. In such contexts, they often become more twisted and bizarre, leading to even more shame and repression, in a likely never-ending spiral. And let's not forget, that just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you. Terrorists clearly are plotting to destroy America, and on the flip side America has been brutally oppressing Muslims for many years now. But the question is do these people need someone to hate, even if nobody is plotting against them. And I think the answer is yes.

[madmusic]

40. And there's the crux of the matter.

Consider the reaction here and everywhere. The tendency will be to push all sexuality, not just gay orientation, further into the closet. That could likely be true of any alternative lifestyles and quirky sex. It is no coincidence that Orwell put the sex police in 1984. The quest to ostracize is obviously great. Some may object that we are going backwards. The moralist's retort will be, "Good, don't do anything if society doesn't approve."

That, in turn, forms the pressure cooker of hate. Better a return to freedom:

Charles A. Beard, historian (1874-1948) said,

http://www.firstfreedomfirst.org/node/72">"We must protect even our enemy from oppression, for failure to do so will assure that such oppression reaches even unto ourselves." Thomas Paine

And the danger is not only from the Right.

[madmusic]

30. Interesting take.

And I've never heard of Mark Crispin Miller. Will have to look into his writings. Are you, and does he, argue that only the Right suffers from this "animus"? Seem to me it would be very possible many on the left do as well.

[TabulaRasa]

33. Interestingly, I got referred to DU by Miller

I think he's a visitor here, if not a poster. I don't think that he or I would argue that this is exclusive to the right. But it also depends on definitions. For example, Stalin, Mao, and Lenin were probably cases of this, but I really don't consider them "of the left". I would imagine you would have a lot of leftists from privileged backgrounds projecting their shame about this on "evil capitalists". Though, the left that I naturally gravitate towards doesn't exhibit these tendencies. Their critiques are more of a systemic nature than derived from personal hatred. You'll hear a lot of leftists ranting about the capitalist system, but few consumed with a passionate hatred for Bill Gates. And as for the Democratic Party institutionally, I think if anything they're not angry enough. Look at our "leaders" ... Kerry, Daschle, Pelosi, Reid, Clinton. Putting aside the nonsensical ravings of the right, do these people seem angry or hateful?

As for conspiracy theories, which are rampant on the left, I don't think all conspiracy theorists exemplify the phenomenon I was talking about. I think often they are held onto by leftists because their simplicity provides comfort and easy solutions ... namely, getting rid of the conspirators, whereas actual social/systemic change is anything but easy or comfortable. Also, I think leftists find conspiracy theories exciting in an action/adventure kind of way. I used to be a JFK conspiracy theorist when I was very young mainly for this reason. But I just don't see self-loathing as being rampant on the left. Why do all these cases of bestiality, pedophilia, repressed homosexuality turn up on the right and not the left?

[madmusic]

37. Some people on the Left are angry and hateful...

Though maybe not for totally economic or capitalist reasons.

Unfortunately, I can't help comparing our present era with the Progressive Era of the early 1900s, and find that like then both the Left and the Right have their own reasons to resent the status quo and instill their own ideals towards the perfection of society. Hitler's Holocaust was inspired by our eugenics, and eugenics was predominantly resentment by the middle class against the upper and lower classes. Though the targets are different, the overall sense of Control Freak mentality is very similar. So rather than hate, the road to hell can be paved with good intentions and for that reason can be all the more dangerous. In fact, our Constitution's greatest threat is from do-good regulations because regulations as a rule do not rise to the level of Bill of Rights protection. Both the Left and the Right have their favorite regulations for the good of society.

Notice how psychology is almost always left out of the equation. That to me is symptomatic of how the Right won. The rights of society over the individual prevail to the point that individuality is subsumed into the greatest good for the greatest number. That's the stuff on nationalism. Note how Haggard's potential psychological conflict is dismissed by most. The response even here is more or less framed by the Right, as was done with the Clinton blow job. Same response, different parties. So eccentric or flawed is outlawed and not even worthy of consideration. Only what is best for the national good is worthy of discussion, and we can forget about any attempt to understand. It doesn't matter. This view is now backfiring big time on the conservatives, since everyone is an individual and no one is perfect, but that doesn't mean it is dead.

While we can call them on their hypocrisy, there is a very real chance we will replace their nationalism with our own brand of social nationalism, whatever that might evolve into.

And your question is a dangerous one. It may very well be no one is snitching on anyone on the Left only because the Left isn't being hypocritical of gay rights. That doesn't ensure the Left doesn't have its own closet. The risk we take is that our own brand of nationalism will have as enemies those who don't beat to the correct drummer. I suspect Pelosi understands this and will try to avoid the same hubris the Right suffered from; the same hubris that is responsible for their downfall. It remains to be seen if the Left's base can so contain themselves.

Celebrating victory after a prolonged attack is only natural, but let's hope it is not institutionalized with laws and regulations that are so extreme they bring us down. What keeps my own view in check is the fact that about 60,000 people, mostly women, were sterilized during the Progressive Era "in order to form a more perfect union," and many in that era supported Hitler. No one party was to blame for that.

[skooooo]

28. can't he be both?

[Quixote1818]

32. When I say fraud, I mean he doesn't believe hardly anything in the Bible

nt

[madmusic]

39. Then, no.

He probably does believe all or most of what he preaches. Living up to it could be an entirely different matter. Indeed, sometimes the most forbidden is the most tempting.

Then again, some of these guys may not believe in God at all and just want the money and power.

[malaise]

35. Haggard is a fugging con man

like every other leader in his and other churches. He is now linked to the two oldest professions - the religious con for a tax free life and prostitution. Fugg him.

[Roy]

36. He is a complete fraud!

Check out the video clips on YouTube. Look at his eyes and demeanor, he tries to work his deviant Jim Jones act on the guy who is confronting him with his BS.

All of these idiots Falwell, Robinson, et al., revel and almost brag about the exclusive control they have over their 'flocks'.
What's amazing is that they have any followers to begin with. They are secure in the knowledge that they could have another Jim Jones type of incident whenever they wish.

But, for now they are satisfied with selling the support of their followers to the highest bidder.

[autorank]

38. Quixote my friend...FRAUD...

Unless he has Dissociative Identity Disorder (aka multiple personality) and did meth and the "massages" and then completely flushed them from memory thus able to return to his role as chief guild generator. He didn't do this once, he did it over a two year period.

I don't care how he parties, not one bit. But he's a hypocrite and a liar. He spouted his shaming positions without any mercy, thus leaving many guilt ridden. And all the while he was "TWEAKING" and playing a furious game of temporary "house" with Mr. Muscles.



AND THEIR MIRROR IMAGE



Sincerely though, I do find your take on this admirably charitable. I mean that. But...

...any doubts, watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmNjfpoRZpE&eurl= (short video)