Can you all Imagine a City In Any Other Civilized Nation Looking Like This

[leftchick]

FOUR Fucking Months after a natural disaster? This speaks volumes about where our country is......



A car decorated for Christmas is seen in the Lower Ninth Ward of New Orleans. Residents and disaster workers in New Orleans, facing curfews and power shortages, struggled on Christmas morning to get into the holiday spirit nearly four months after Hurricane Katrina devastated the city.(AFP/Getty Images/Ethan Miller)



The devastated Lower Ninth Ward neighborhood is seen Monday Dec. 26, 2005 from the Claiborne Ave. Bridge, which spans the Industrial Canal and levees breached by Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans. (AP Photo/Jacqueline Larma)

[babylonsister]

1. No. There was a report on the tsunami one year later tonight;

Thailand, Sri Lanka and Indonesia have all managed to get a lot accomplished in one year. Doesn't appear to be happening here, does it?:-(

[pitohui]

24. give us time, please

four effin months

we are not gods, we are only simple human beings

[Greyhound]

57. If this government was serious about fixing it, all the debris would

be cleared away at least. I'm not saying that the people actually doing the work are not trying their best, but they still don't have the equipment to do the job right. It is outrageous.

[DFWdem]

74. Have you considered....

Perhaps they have not been able to contact the property owner, or maybe the owner of the property did not want the debris removed yet? Anyone who had insurance needs to ensure that the adjuster visits the property in the condition in which Katrina left it in order to get a settlement. Also, the owners may not have had a chance to go through their homes to pick out what few undamaged items remain, including pictures and family heirlooms. Considering the sheer number of destroyed homes and businesses, it's obvious that debris removal alone will take at least a year.

[Greyhound]

75. Yes, and it is just more BS. The developers are jus waiting for the

prices to hit rock bottom so they can move in and steal the property.

[TankLV]

76. You have a velid point. But I think it is a combination of the two

the total result is very favorable to these criminals.

Use the valid concerns you expressed coupled with a heavy dose of INTENTIONAL neglect and criminal negligence and sheer incompetance, and you get the pics above.

[YourBrother]

73. god acts in mysterious ways

anyone would have thought the nightmare that was new orleans would have polarized americans into thinking there are bigger problems afoot than a bunch of american sponsored terrorists

google this! >>>> Michael meiring

[Olney Blue]

2. Another day, another outrage.

:grr::grr::grr::grr::grr:

[warrior1]

3. This is george bush's america

[MetaTrope]

50. George Bush's America, indeed

[MSgt213]

4. I can imagine it would happen in any city we don't give a fuck about

[acmejack]

5. You are giving us the benefit of the doubt

I suggest you have miscategorized us as "civilized".

[leftchick]

8. yes indeed I have

:(

[mmonk]

6. Define civilized

[TallahasseeGrannie]

7. Pensacola still looks bad after Ivan

last year.

Maybe the government needs to have an entire mobile clean up squad with major amounts of heavy equipment and personnel that they can bring in. Think of how we got all that stuff to Iraq. I guess there are land ownership issues, but I'd bet most folks would agree to have their debris at least hauled off ASAP.

If this is going to keep happening with global warming, we need to get on the stick.

[davepc]

11. Hauled off where?

Which part of the state would you designate as landfill for the ruins of most of a major city?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

13. In 1945 Pforzheim, Germany

was devastated in 20 minutes by its first and only bombing attack. 3/4 of the city was destroyed and 20K killed. It was as bad as Dresden, coming some ten days later.

What THEY did was designate three areas for landfill. Everything was piled there..bricks and lots of wood. Then they covered it with dirt and planted grass. These small mountains are now public parks. I understand that for a few years it was not open to the public because of settling.

[pitohui]

25. well we have old gentilly landfill

:-)

we can do this, we have no choice so we will do this

it just takes time

[0007]

88. The German city of Dresden was the extreme example.

It February 1945, the Red Army was 80 miles to the east and it was clear that Germany was on the way to defeat. In one day and one night of bombing, by Americans and British planes, the tremendous heat generated by the bombs created a vacuum,and an enormous firestorm swept the city, which was full of refugees at the time, increasing the population to a million. More than 100,000 people died. page 93 "Passionate Declarations" - Howard Zinn

[cdsilv]

30. ...use it to 'rebuild' the outer barrier islands - make dunes & berms..n/t

[pitohui]

34. you wanna put potentially toxic waste in salt water

ho-kay

maybe it's even a good idea but right now it sounds a little goofy, i think that one needs an environmental impact study, friend

the chandeleur islands come and go naturally, altho it would better if they did less go-ing and more coming at this point, ha ha

the inhabited barrier island, grand isle, sounds like it is bouncing back, i am invited to a function there in a couple weeks

[The Flaming Red Head]

45. BR to NO along the Miss river is already nicknamed cancer alley

can it be more toxic then it already is?

[pitohui]

51. not the same thing at all

cancer alley, that's atmospheric pollution -- crap coming out of the smokestacks

the suggestion here was to reinforce barrier islands in the gulf of mexico, the gulf is an important source of food which happens to be salt water, one of the most corrosive substances known, even barrels of stainless steel get eaten if they sit in the gulf long enough

some of the debris is safe enough for this purpose, i'll guess, but i don't know abt the cost or feasibility of sorting it properly

as far as cancer alley --

agreed there should be more controls on the output of the refineries and chemical plants but it's two different issues, we are not going to see any good air pollution law anywhere in the usa with bushco in charge, he and his pretty much destroyed the atmosphere of texas -- not that it was great to start with but they just went hog-wild spoiling the place -- so he shits in his own house, no reason to expect him to wear diapers in ours

[The Flaming Red Head]

86. CC is more than air pollution. it goes right to the gulf too.

That's the chemical corridor (or cancer alley) and it comes seeping in through door cracks and windows and it’s every toxin that you can imagine. And when it escapes they have a lock down and you shelter in place, that's in your house, or project or whatever crappy structure you live in and that's down there too. Try breathing in a little antimony pentachloride if you think it's stuff in smoke stacks.

http://theflamingredhead.blogspot.com/2003_08_03_theflamingredhead_archive.html

[The Flaming Red Head]

89. Chemical plants, pollutants directly relate to decimation of wetlands

The amount of chemical plants and pollutants in a given area (like Louisiana) directly relates to the decimation of wetlands

We had a friend/neighbor doing her grad work on that but a serial killer down there didn't let her finish.

[Greyhound]

59. All of the Feds heavy equipment is in Iraq, leased to Halliburton

et al, for a tiny fraction of the going rate. Which they then turn around and gouge the taxpayers for 'maintenance' which they don't do.
There is not one single example of anything this cabal is doing that is not rife with crime.

[porphyrian]

9. Yeah, but they're poor and brown-skinned...

...they don't matter enough to pay to help them. Our country only spends that kind of money on the rich.

[Catrina]

10. To think there are still people in the US who think this government

cares about their 'security' or well-being!!

[area51]

31. peo. who think our govt. "cares about their 'security' or well-being"

Yes, it amazes me too, that after seeing the suffering of people affected by Katrina, that somehow our extremist right-wing nazi govt. is going to look out for us. These are probably right-wingers w/o a fscking clue as to reality.

[zippy890]

12. the Lower ninth ward gets shit from bush

this is outrageous, the debris isn't even cleaned up yet.

in bush's america - who cares? the feds sure don't.

meanwhile the fatcats are getting their taxbreaks and apparently thats all that matters.

George Bush doesn't care about black people, low-income people, elderly people trying to afford their medicine, or ANYBODY WHO NEEDS HELP

ARRGHHH!
:grr:

[babylonsister]

14. Don't worry; the debris is being cleaned up, probably as

we speak!

Christmas in New Orleans: Santa Drove a Bulldozer


Christmas in New Orleans

Santa Drove a Bulldozer

By SCOTT BOEHM

A thunderstorm engulfed the city this Christmas Eve morning, an apt--if ominous--metaphor for the city,s reconstruction nearly four months after Katrina came to town. A ghostly atmosphere haunts New Orleans, making Christmas seem more like Halloween gone wrong, than a celebration of brotherhood. Rubbish piles line abandoned city streets, hollowed out buildings resemble images of post-WWII Europe and military police patrol in the same Humvees that characterize the U.S. occupation in Iraq. Indeed, popular T-shirts sold on Bourbon Street call New Orleans "Baghdad on the Bayou."

Compounding the fact that hundreds of thousands of people remain scattered across the country and separated from each other without the ability to return home for Christmas, Greg Meffert, the city,s chief technology officer, announced on Friday that 2,500 homes have been scheduled to be demolished immediately. The majority of the homes to be bulldozed during this holiday season are located in the Lower 9th Ward, the part of the city most affected by Katrina when the levees of the Industrial Canal suddenly exploded, flooding the economically poor, black neighborhood.

Claiming that he has not heard of any complaints about these plans, which are to be put into effect immediately, Meffert fails to consider that displaced residents have not been informed of the crucial change in the status of their "red-tagged" homes. The Shaw Group of Baton Rouge, which won a no-bid contract from the government to oversee inspections of homes affected by the hurricanes, uses a color-coded system to tag homes for insurance and rebuilding purposes. Before the city had clearly stated to residents that red tags signified severe damage to a home"in lieu of yellow tags that indicate less serious damage. But now"without informing residents of the change"those red-tagged homes may be demolished before the ball drops in Times Square.

While FEMA possesses a database of contact information for most, if not all, New Orleans evacuees, no effort has been taken to inform affected residents that their homes are about to be demolished. If they were contacted, complaints would certainly be voiced, which appears to be what Mayor C. Ray Nagin, the city council, FEMA and Shaw Group want to avoid. Like Santa,s annual secret night run, this drastic and immutable move has been carried out under the cover of backroom maneuvering, rather than with transparency and accountability to the community. The result is that public opinion and the voice of citizens already traumatized by the hurricanes and the current diaspora are about to lose the most powerful symbol of their connection to this crumbling city without notice or recourse to stop the powerful Grinches running the city,s reconstruction.

http://www.counterpunch.org/boehm12262005.html


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x181153

[fooj]

18. Rat bastards!

:cry: :cry: :cry:

[babylonsister]

21. I know, fooj. Makes me sick and sad. nt

[pitohui]

27. believe me, plenty of people want that clean-up

if you can't get on the list of the lucky 2,500, you are going to have to pay $4-5K to demolish your totalled home

PLUS yr insurance co. is going to give you crap and not give you full value of yr demolished home because they will lie to you bold-faced & claim yr house is not totalled

i know people facing this, the houses are destroyed, but the gov't is being sooooo nice and not red-tagging their home

what does this mean?

i gave this example in another post, but apparently i need to do it again

my friend's house is totalled, he got a check for $52K because for some reason they won't agree the house is totalled, this means he still owes $10K on the mortgage, after he pays off the mortgage, he then has to pay $4K to get the wreck demolition'd, then he has to pay $100K (because of the inc. cost of labor and materials) to put another house on the site

in other words, my friend is going to have to declare bankruptcy

the people whose houses are red-tagged are lucky

outside people who know nothing of new orleans land values are really hurting us, a lot is worth $10-20K, this is not manhattan where a lot is worth millions of dollars or believe me we'd have all sold out a LONG time ago, we are not stupid sentimental soft-minded idiots just because that is a nice fantasy for the tourists to believe, we have the same ability to do math as anyone else

jesus, in the house where i know the old couple that died, floating face down, the city of new orleans is rating that house as 51 percent damaged, i used to live there and have gone back to the house to get closure, it's awful, no one can live in it again, the family can't reasonably be expected to even deal w. this w.out all kinds of emotions of trying to rehab this mess, they had water over the roof -- and it ain't red-tagged?

i understand why conservatives want to hue and cry and pretend oh boo hoo, because they don't wanna help us, even to the tune of a paltry $4k which means nothing to the gov't or your tax rate but everything to the individual who is suffering -- but why are progressives piling on and not allowing us to get FEMA to properly bulldoze our totalled houses?

you are letting yourself be manipulated

i told you aaron broussard was not on the side of the angels, this is another case where i'm going to end up saying i told you so

[babylonsister]

29. I think I'd like to be informed BEFORE someone bulldozed

my home. According to the article, that's not happening. And it doesn't address whether the victims will ever see a dime; if they can't be bothered to find the homeowners, I can't imagine any funds exchanging hands.

[pitohui]

32. why don't the homeowners find them

be real, babylonsister

it is december 26, it is 4 mos. later

any homeowners who have not checked on their home by now are dead

i know, we are supposed to pretend only poor people died, not homeowners, but i can assure you this is not the case, the people i know who died owned their homes and other property too

[nashville_brook]

47. post this as a thread

keep the url handy and refer back often.

progressives worry about the rich preying on the poor. the bulldozing of houses is an easy symbol for that. this is COUNTER-intuitive shit.

anyone who has owned and INSURED flood plane property knows that everything is not-as-it-seems. the insurance companies have all the freaking power b/c they've bought it, i suppose. ergo, the poor ARE being preyed upon. it's just that the symbols are different and i promise, we will adapt our symbol language with a little help.

i had to let go of the family house a year ago because while it was worth 200,000+, we could only buy 115,000 worth of coverage. we were a block from the ocean and since i was a kid, the beach has eroded to the dunes which are only feet from A1A. in other words, the water is coming and the insurance companies know it. why everyone who lives there can't see it, is a mystery to me. it's shocking.

i totally GET your points! if we aren't screwed coming, we are screwed going.

[Tom Joad]

15. Read this: 25 questions about New Orleans.

Some of these questions also wonder about Nagin's and other Dems actions or lack thereof. Very necessary. Please read the whole thing yourself.

From Tomdispatch
http://www.tomdispatch.com/index.mhtml?pid=24875

Mike Davis (whose most recent book is Monster at our Door, The Global Threat of Avian Flu) and architect Anthony Fontenot have just returned from New Orleans. They rode out Rita in southern Louisiana and talked with numerous people involved in local Katrina rescue efforts. The city is now, Davis says, a huge crime scene that may never be properly investigated. After Hurricane Ivan turned away from the Big Easy in 2004, Davis wrote a singularly prophetic piece, Poor, Black and Left Behind, about the car-less, unevacuated poor of that city. The arrival of Hurricane Katrina, which did not spare New Orleans, essentially proved for the poor a horrifying replay of the previous year. Nothing had changed for the better. The main question Davis and Fontenot raise below -- for an investigative body that may never exist -- is just how deliberate, from top to bottom, the neglect of the obvious was in New Orleans.

[pitohui]

33. some of these questions have been answered time and again

how many times we gotta answer the bus canard, for example

rita should have put paid to that, do you not yet understand that the heat index before katrina was 108 degrees and that old people on life support equipment will die if put on regular buses w. no air conditioning

or in the case of houston, texas, put on buses w. no damn working brakes either

i guess you have to kill the old people to save them, houston chronicle said 100-plus were killed in the evacuation of rita and the storm didn't even hit there

so get over the 25 questions, dude, pick only the questions that have some legitimacy and stop trashing us

it is NOT "very" necessary to trash the democrats and in fact allows the federal authorities to escape responsibility for their actions

stop linking this!

[Tom Joad]

40. It is necessary to be honest. Sorry if it hurts.

[pitohui]

48. it is not necessary to be dishonest

i have to question the motives of those who would post disgenuous "questions" that include known lies

tell me where you live so i can make up lies abt you when catastrophe strikes, oh wait, i wouldn't bother to do that, because i actually want to help people recover

everyone is angry this happened but pretending to be even-handed by spilling some of your poison on those who are not to blame is cruel, hurtful, and only feeds the wingnuts who are the ones behind the bus lies in the first place

how do you sleep?

i can understand repeating any kind of nonsense in the first few days of confusion but, now? 4 months later? and after the huge disaster of the rita evacuation?

[Tom Joad]

54. Getting really personal there. Calm down. Breath deeply.

These questions were posed by people who visited New Orleans, who are very familiar with the situation there, including the Mayor's cozy relationship with the chamber of commerce types.
Mike Davis has written several books, and has been featured in many publications that many of us read and appreciate.

This article also appeared in The Nation magazine.

****************
You asked how I sleep at night? Not as well as i might. Because, not only have we Bush at the helm going to war when he hears god tell him to do so, we have enablers like Clinton and Lieberman to help him along the way... and then Clinton and Lieberman apologists here who want us to make sure that we stay loyal to a Party. Some of us want to stay loyal to our convictions. We will continue to ask uncomfortable questions.

[pitohui]

61. i don't care if it was in the holy bible if it contains lies

there is a difference bet. a piece produced in the heat of the disaster and continuing to repeat lies and inaccuracies month after month

if you are unwilling to update your information as new information comes in, you don't deserve the respect of serious people & your "uncomfortable" questions look a lot like propaganda to me

i live here, i will continue to seek accuracy, i don't have the convenience of being able to swoop down, form some cheap impressions, and swoop off to the next

for those who think it's more important to feel morally superior than to seek truth, what can i say except dispute lies and inaccuracies wherever i see them published

so i will continue to do so

if it bothers people who can't be bothered to update their information, so be it, they deserve to be bothered frankly

it is rude to tell other people to breathe deeply, but you knew that

[earth mom]

85. If you are from NOLA, why don't you want these questions answered?

Your posts make one wonder which side you are on... :shrug:

FYI-The article clearly states: "here are twenty-five of the urgent questions that deeply trouble the local people we spoke with." Meaning "THE LOCALS" want these questions answered. And even though I'm not from NOLA, I want to know THE TRUTH about what really happened as do millions of other people in this country.

BTW-If we don't hold any of these bastards accountable, it WILL happen again in some other area of the country. NO DOUBT ABOUT IT. :grr:

[Deja Q]

16. And 3 years from now, we'll have a new president...

Another neocon, just one who knows how to make a facade look convincing. Like how reagan made bad things look good... sheesh, his list of crimes is huge and yet he's painted as some friggin' superhero.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

17. Babs Bush says.... and I find this hard to believe......

http://www.discourse.net/archives/2005/09/the_modern_let_them_eat_cake_moment.html

The Modern "Let Them Eat Cake" Moment
When I saw this quote on Atrios's site, I thought it was a parody.

But Editor and Publisher, to whom he cites, is reporting it as straight news:

Barbara Bush: Things Working Out "Very Well" for Poor Evacuees from New Orleans NEW YORK Accompanying her husband, former President George H.W.Bush, on a tour of hurricane relief centers in Houston, Barbara Bush said today, referring to the poor who had lost everything back home and evacuated, "This is working very well for them."
The former First Lady's remarks were aired this evening on National Public Radio's "Marketplace" program.

Then she added: "What I’m hearing is they all want to stay in Texas. Everyone is so overwhelmed by the hospitality.

"And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this--this is working very well for them."

[leftchick]

19. yes, babs ma barker bush....

what a great example of an elitist, corporatist, New England pedigreed pig.

[babylonsister]

22. She said that, all right. She was in the Houston Astrodome

shortly after the Katrina survivors started arriving. Very callous, but not hard to believe she said it.

[pitohui]

28. believe it

they should have put a sock in that trap a long time ago

[Just Me]

65. She genetically transferred to her son serious mental illness.

Neither have been successfully treated.

Seriously. :spray:

[DBoon]

20. And what civilized (or sane) naiton would blame the occupants?

the nonsense about a "welfare mentality", as though the destitution of many New Orleans residents is a personal failing caused by some minimal governmant aid programs.

[pitohui]

23. this was never gonna be fixed in 4 months

90,000 square miles of disaster area, it was never gonna happen

even kobe, w. japanese efficiency, wasn't fixed for 10 years

how many years before munich, w. german efficiency, was rebuilt?

this is a photo of nuremberg after world war 2, a fine rich city today



we're all angry, we're all impatient, but it was never gonna be over by xmas

we can do what the germans did, what the japanese did, we can and will rebuild but just give us some freakin space, okay? it can't be done overnight

[KamaAina]

26. Hey King Dumbass**, I've got your ownership society right here!

By any reasonable standard, the Lower Ninth Ward should have been held up as a shining example of the "ownership society" so beloved of King Dumbass**, when the cameras are on, anyway. :sarcasm: It is one of the few urban areas in the entire country -- maybe the only one -- where large numbers of residents who live below the poverty line are also homeowners.

You can see from the above photos just how quickly our allegedly omnipotent federal government has moved to succor these people in their hour of need. :sarcasm: This, apparently, is their reward for participating in the American Dream: "no good deed goes unpunished". :grr: :banghead:

[uppityperson]

35. USA is no better than many other places

Yes, there are things good about the USA, but all this shows that we are no better than many other places. However, watching the 1 yr anniversary of the tsunami, and seeing what's happening in Pakistan post-quake, it makes me realize how few people died due to Katrina and the aftermath (even counting all those I believe will never be counted) and how much just stuff I have. Being involved with post-Katrina recovery makes me very ashamed of our government, and many people in my country ("but I heard that things were getting back to normal in New Orleans, that's what's been on the news" makes me want to pound my head on a wall).

[Osito]

36. Reality Check, Anyone?

Sorry about the tone of this post, but I'll need to be blunt to be concise. Please don't take this as a personal attack, and no impugning of anyone's intelligence or political beliefs is intended.

Obviously, no one agreeing with the opening post has any idea of the level of destruction. Do you have any idea how long it took to build that shopping mall down the street? Oh, you saw it go up in a year? Did you see the 2 years of upgrading the sewer system at the south end of town? Did you see the 20-year plan for traffic upgrades needed to service the area. Were you aware of the the 1 to 2 years of planning and design? How about the 2 year approval process? How about the year to negotiate easements and rights of way?

Folks, we're not talking about rebuilding a burnt down house. The main power transmission lines from Lake Charles needed to be restored. They can't shut down service for the customers that still have service, so the lines need to be repaired while "hot". The electrician is required to "rubber up" before he can enter the vicinity of such high voltage. It takes over an hour to prepare, and once in the suit the electrician can only work about an hour at a stretch. Then another electrician takes over. How long do you think it takes to fix that one transmission line? You can't rebuild on the lots after the debris is cleaned. There is no sewer or water in most areas. The approvals from various agencies (federal through local) to even certify that the lot is habitable takes months.

Where does the money come from? Hopefully, most of the structures are insured. How long does it take to get your insurance check? Can't hire a contractor without cash up front. How many contractors do you think there are? All the local ones were wiped out. How long does it take to get a contractor from out of town? At what price? Guess we'll have to wait until the "rush" for contractors is over. All the plywood in the area was used to board up before the storm. Then the railroad tracks were wiped out. How long until they're fixed? How long before plywood becomes available again.

As for "Would any other civilized country let this happen?", HE** YES! They'd have no choice. Believe me, there are plenty of valid reasons to slap Georgie up side the head, but this isn't one. Were we unprepared? You bet. And who was in office for 8 years before Georgie? Tell me what Bill did to prepare for this. You can knock the timing of the immediate relief, if you want, but the rebuilding is going to take years, and be prepared for N.O. to lose half its population. We simply can't build houses fast enough or reopen businesses fast enough to supply jobs. The people are wiped out, through no fault of their own, and simply can't wait for a job, or a house. They'll move.

The day before Katrina hit land, this is exactly what I expected to see at the first of 2006.

[uppityperson]

37. We're talking about cleaning up the basics and even doing body searches

"Obviously, no one agreeing with the opening post has any idea of the level of destruction. " I think you presume too much and are either ignorant of those responding, or being insulting, regardless of your disclaimer that you are not attacking (I'm not attacking but you don't have any idea of the level of destruction=WTF?).

What do you mean by "The day before Katrina hit land, this is exactly what I expected to see at the first of 2006."?

[jim3775]

39. "Tell me what Bill did to prepare for this."

It always goes back to "The Clenis" with you guys doesn't it?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

41. I'll tell you what Bill did to prepare for this...he rebuilt FEMA after 41

all but neglected it.

Some of us actually do know a little something about disaster - manmade or otherwise..we saw a city burned to the ground in 91 after the last Bush was in office and neglected the poor and minorities..and it did not take several months to break ground on the project either. I was in LA the day after the riots cleaning up with others...we were not kept out of the disaster area simply so that the Feds would not look incompetent.

Yes ..rebuilding takes time...but the squalor need not sit idle for months either.

In fact, New Orleans and Miss are a perfect example of why Iraq is such a mess...the Bush administration has only mastered incompetence...anything that positively effects the quality of average people's lives is of little concern for them.

Oh and on the plywood thing...uh...it doesn't take 4 months to transport and there's no shortage of the shit...

please no more excuses for Bush's disregard and incompetency

[pitohui]

52. there is a severe plywood shortage actually

bushco is incompetent no doubt abt that and the poster trying to pretend clinton would have bungled it as badly is just silly, we already know how clinton handles natural disasters and that his FEMA was the real thing instead of bushco's underfunded piece of shit

however you said, it doesn't take 4 months to transport and there's no shortage of the shit...

this is factually incorrect, plywood & OSB have been in shortage and at hugely increased prices since the start of the iraq war, i cannot figure out what they use it for, but the iraq was given as the excuse for the inavailability of these materials as early as july 2003

how do i know, just lucky i guess, 2 natural disasters in 3 years, it's enough to make you weep

the shortage of labor & materials is real, that story about how there were not enough tents in the world to house all the homeless in pakistan from the earthquake? that ain't just pakistan

even those of us who have now received our checks are having trouble getting materials & labors

and a great many people i know have not yet even received their checks yet

this was never gonna be fixed in 4 months, to compare the riots in los angeles to the destruction of hundreds of miles of coastline makes you look a little goofy, if you'll forgive me, because i know you're on the side of angels, but if you aren't here, you just can't comprehend the size of the thing, it's just too big


we are talking abt a storm that makes camille & andrew look small, as far as l.a. riots, it makes them look like a squabble in the schoolyard, just not in the same universe of disaster at all

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

60. Sure it wasn't going to be fixed in 4 months

that wasn't my point. My point was the level of neglect of emergency services under Bush. And I just read and stand corrected about the plywood shortage, but again it's been known since 2002 actually and has to do with prices being driven down according to the articles I read. Again, it was FORESEEABLE given the hurricane activity just in FLA over the past two years that something would need to be done...nothing was.

Neglect and incompetence are the hallmarks of Bush's presidency...

[pitohui]

62. agreed neglect/incompetence are hallmarks of bushco

but don't care what you may have read, the price of plywood and OSB is way more than what it was in 2002, i really wish i didn't have to know this! this is really just a nitpick tho

all materials and labor are in short supply, it's just a mess

[TankLV]

79. There is no shortage or horrible price increase of plywood here in Vegas,

and we're the MOST EXPENSIVE and FASTEST GROWING CITY in the us!

There is plenty of plywood and other contruction materials around - how come bunkerboy and his criminal repuke pals are preventing it from heading to NOLA? Seem the only "shortage" is artifically produced and limited to the NOLA area.

THAT is the only pertinent question.

And you don't need to tell me how long it takes to plan, draw-up and build something. I've been an architect for over 30 years now, and if we can and do build a 40 story mega casino from "I think I'd like to do a casino" to the Grand Opening in just over 18 months, then they certainly can have a lot more "action" on the basics like NOTIFYING all property owners and lessees!

The problem is not that is takes any time to DO SOMETHING, it's the FACT that THEY have in fact DONE NOTHING to this very day!

THAT is what all the complaints are about!

And our firm is doing some of the repairs in that area - and our consultants have been there and back a few times, so I do have a rather accurate "idea" of what has occured/is occuring.

You are correct, tho, things DO take time, and until you get past the initial ground/site work, it ALWAYS looks like very little is happening.

But in the case of NOLA, WHAT ISN'T HAPPENING is the scandal.

[uppityperson]

43. How long does it take to get "permission" to get back to your house?

How long to get permission to go past nationalguard patrolling with rifles to get back to your house, to clean up the debris, to even put blue tarps on the holes to keep out more rain, to make sure there are no bodies in your house or if there are to make sure they are counted? Long enough to make sure the toxic black mold takes hold. Long enough to make sure the bodies are stuck to the floor or melted over fences. Long enough to make everything more uninhabitable. Long enough to make sure these people have no choice but to move on.

[pitohui]

53. where do you live?

people came back as soon as it was safe, many of them before it was safe, yeah, there were some inadequate number of national guard but as far as keeping people out of their homes, good luck on that one, bucky, people just went around them, people in louisiana have boats, ya'll

even in the lower 9th ward, where you had houses and even concrete structures floated right into the middle of what once were streets, people got in, my friend who took the photos while the 9th ward was closed was stopped by the guard, yes, they said he could enter and see as long as he didn't get out of the car, which is fair, the only way to prevent looting, in theory, what you say is true, the area was completely closed, in practice, a lot of people never even left and others returned as soon as possible, however, they had no services -- no water, no electric, no food, no 911, no hospitals, etc. it had to be at yr own risk when most doctors were evac'd themselves

there are some areas that are still closed, i think cameron parish is still closed, but most of those houses and structures were completely washed away, it is not a question of any black mold, it is a question of the structures don't actually survive

it's easy to naysay from a distance, but how does a man win? nagin was slammed by FEMA for opening orleans parish too early, while it was still unsafe, he was slammed by the homeowners for not opening it soon enough to let them in, i'm no nagin fan but crap a man can't please anybody under those conditions, someone is always going to gripe and, in fact, nagin did try to get homeowners back early as possible to check on matters

do you think he is a fool? while he is a shaky democrat, he was elected as a democrat, he knows perfectly well if the democratic base does not return to new orleans, he's out of a job

people were allowed to return sooner than federal guidelines, i really don't know what more could be expected, yell at us for not evacuating & then yell at us for not getting back in, you know what, i'm tired of it, nothing personal, but i'm tired of the backseat second-guessers who don't understand the scale of the thing pretending THEY could do better, easy to talk when you haven't been tested

[uppityperson]

67. I live in the pacific NW, have friend in LA and MS, living and working

and I was there for a while also, helping directly after Katrina. My complaint to the person I replied to is the statement that no one agreeing with the OP has any idea of the level of destruction. It doesn't matter where I live, I have also been involved, I have seen the mile after mile after mile and thanked whomever that I did not live there and got to return home to prepare for the earthquake which will hit here someday and continue to work on getting people, funds, equipment down to my friend in MS and LA.

I am very aware of what happened in NO, who was allowed where when why, who was stopping them, the level of total destruction in many places. I don't give a flying monkey if I was actually in Katrina, or lost my home, friends were, did, and yes, I saw it so I can yell all I want. Yes, people are yelling who have no idea. However, some of us who are yellihng and complaining do. And I understand your frustration with them, goes along with my frustration with those who say "but I saw on the news that the French Quarter has reopened and things are getting back to normal" and my frustration with posters who tell me that because I am not a certain color (creed, sex) I should not complain about slurs and poor treatment.

So, I'm not yelling at not evacuating or not getting back in and certainly not saying that people should be allowed to be in, or are capable of fixing, the bad area. I'm yelling at the broken system that prevented people from returning to previously salvagable houses while they were still salvageable, whether in flooded areas or unflooded. I'm yelling at the system that has not searched fully for bodies, or lied about it, leaving people to come home to them. I am yelling at the system not being able to let people in sooner, not able to keep 1 database of missing parents/kids or who was taken where, not able to actually help people but play powergames. I'm yelling at the system that has been cut and cut and cut for years, leaving us on our own.

[newyawker99]

44. Hi Osito!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Osito]

90. Thanks...

...and nice to make your acquaintance!

[pitohui]

49. agreed, these people have no idea of the enormity of destruction

you can try to tell them but until they get in their car & drive around & see it and & realize that it takes hours upon hours to pass the destruction, only then does reality strike

one thing i won't agree w. is the slam against clinton Tell me what Bill did to prepare for this

FEMA response was night & day during clinton, as compared to bush, you can't compare katrina to any other natural disaster to hit modern america, but you can compare andrew & other storms of the mid/late 90s -- it's night & day, poppy was NO different from the shrub, he did not care, he did not send supplies or troops in advance of the disaster, some people didn't get shelter, trailers, etc. for months, one of the first things clinton did was clean up FEMA & get some real fast response to people

it was night & day the changes in FEMA that came after the shrub was selected, he started hollering it was bankrupt in june 2003, w. tropical storm bill & refused all federal funds there, next refused aid for claudette which actually struck texas in 2003, so you see the cutbacks had already occurred even for all-holy texas, hell, he claimed the only effect of claudette was beach erosion, funny, beach erosion doesn't usually cause a couple of people killed by falling trees

a strike on new orleans was always gonna be bad, people woulda bitched at bill as they bitch at george, but reality is w. bill there would have been boots on the ground IN ADVANCE, supplies and doctors in ADVANCE, not drownie brownie playing the fashion god at ruth's chris in baton rouge

rebuilding was always gonna take years, the media pretends it's a small area of the lower 9th ward instead of what it really is -- the entire coastline from cameron (near texas border) to biloxi mississippi having terrible destruction -- but there is plenty of blame to be placed & deservedly so on the federal response

to be fair we must be accurate, and accuracy requires admitting that there are vast differences between the FEMA of bill clinton & the FEMA of the two evil bushes

i believe one reason poppy spends so much time working on disaster zones in his old age is guilt abt his terrible role in andrew which greatly prolonged the suffering of the affected there

i do not believe bush mark 2 is capable of any guilt or conscience, he is a true sociopath or perhaps just too severely brain-damaged by the drink & drugs to experience normal human compassion, sorta like reagan, it's useful for the oligarchs if their puppets are stupid & evil

[Sparkman]

56. Las Vegas builds $100 Million Dollar resorts in 4 months, I've seen it !!!

You're reality needs checking...the red ink in our national treasury could have been avoided, and the cash for Katrina Relief would have had no effect on the U.S. economy.
Now the national guard troops and the money for rebuilding and loans is OBVIOUSLY inadequate.

[pitohui]

66. that's one building & we lost many more than 1 $100 million dollar resort

the individual was poorly spoken & should not have taken the cheap shots at clinton but we lost way more than one $100 million dollar resort, we lost boo-coo of them from lake charles to biloxi

we actually did have many hundreds of thousands of homes & buildings in louisiana and mississippi, i don't want to sound sarcastic, because you are on the side of the angels, but there was never any way this was gonna be fixed in 4 months, there is not material, there is not labor, there is not housing for workers, plus until a few days ago there was not money being allocated

even now please be aware that congress thoughtfully refused to release ANY aid to the casino industry, one of the most if not THE most important employer on the mississippi gulf coast, it is more important to pander to bullshit baptists from virginia than to get people on the coast back in their jobs

our resorts are big-time, beau rivage was $800 million -- and that is just one resort destroyed by the storm surge

we'll rebuild all right, in fact, isle of capri re-opened yesterday (dec. 26) but no thanks to the federal authorities

[TankLV]

81. Um - even the "small" mom-and-pop casinos don't cost 100 million

Try a minimum of 1 BILLION dollars a pop.

We wish they only cost a hundred million!

[TankLV]

80. Actually, it's closer to 18 months - but you're closer to reality.

And it doesn't matter that it's one building or thousands - there is not just ONE architectural/engineering firm doing EVERY building!

Trust me, there are firms from all over the entire country feverishly working on it as ours is now.

Just look are WHERE and WHO they are concentrating their attention on.

You can bet your life it isn't on the less well-off!

[Osito]

91. Sorry, Sparkman, but...

...you really picked the wrong topic there! I was a Registered Professional Engineer (specializing in large developments and public works) from 1997 through 2002. I know SPECIFICALLY what it takes to get a project built in Las Vegas. You can barely get a permit to erect a sign to announce the project in 4 months!

Do you remember when the Strip was all torn up for a couple years to rebuild the water system? That was in preparation for the casino you mentioned. I've prepared plans for casino projects. We typically take about 1-1/2 years to go from conceptual studies through the approval process - approval to go ahead and prepare and submit plans. Plan review seldom takes less than 6 months, just to receive approval to break ground. To get approval to construct takes much longer. You can't get an application to supply utilities to the site through the various agencies in less than 8 months.

You might want to submit some proof that $100 million in construction took place in 4 months. Consider this one fact alone. The developer did not pay the $100 million out of available cash. That's not how financing works. You either borrow money or you take funds out the parent corporation. If you borrow money, the lender doesn't hand you $100 million. He hands out only a couple million at a time, secured by other assets, usually property. Those funds are placed in an escrow account and handed out only after a lengthy process of inspections, approvals, certifications and other legal paperwork. The lender has to protect himself from potential fraud. If the funds come from within the corporation, they are not idly sitting in some bank account, they are invested. So, the investment needs to be liquidated, and funds reassigned. Corporations are entities that are regulated by the state. There is a lot of paperwork and processing to prevent fraud in this case as well.

[TankLV]

77. I think you exposed yourself with the tired old "blame Clinton" krap.

We all know WHAT you are.

What is interesting is to see how long you will last.

Enjoy your short stay here.

[Osito]

92. Sorry if I confused you, but...

...I was NOT blaming Clinton. My was responding to the proposition that "this" wouldn't happen in any other civilized country. Toward that end, I was attempting to convey the idea that there are structural impediments to a relief and rebuilding effort that is independent of one's intentions. Again, I'm sorry I wasn't more clear on that point.

May I make a request? Perhaps you would set aside your paranoia when serious points are trying to be made?

[ohio_liberal]

38. There are STILL people...

..living in FEMA trailers in Marshall County, WV 15 months after the area was hit with the remnants of Hurricane Ivan. The people were allowed to have them for 18 months and they're getting booted out of them in March. The county has no idea what to do.

It doesn't compare to what happened in the Gulf region, I know that. But these people had those damned trailers thrown at them in an election year and then were abandoned by the federal government after the elections were over.

[Raydawg1234]

42. I don't think any country has the ability to clean up this kind of mess

quickly. This disaster was of such great magnitude that it can even strain the resources of the mighty United States, we are only human after all. The truth is that it will take years to rebuild. The real tragedy is that we left thousands of poor black people to fend for themselves. That, we could have prevented. And another tragedy is the fact that we spend billions each year in Iraq when it would be much better spent rebuilding our own cities like New Orleans.

P.S. We have to be vigilant and make sure that developers do not use the devastation as an excuse to take land away from the Katrina victims(note the recent supreme court decision on eminent domain). All the victims must have the right to rebuild if they chose.

[nashville_brook]

46. how long did it take to remove all the WTC debris?

i think the outrage comes from what we perceive: low priority.

we *needed* the WTC crime scene intact and yet it was flown out of the country crazy fast. supposedly b/c of "contamination."

the vibe i get when i see the ninth ward is a developer's waiting game. let the carcass rot. starve the population out of their homes, and move in later with a master plan.

[ohio_liberal]

55. I think I could live with seeing all the destruction still laying about

if I knew the people who lost their homes had a decent place to live, and there was some real effort to bring the Gulf back to it's original state. The fact that the government stopped the search for bodies so early and left family members to find decomposed remains is absolutely despicable. You're absolutely right, it's the notion that the region is low priority that brings about so much anger. I for one am pissed.

[pitohui]

64. agreed, we feel they just don't care

the difference in the way the bodies were counted at 9-11 and for katrina are just night & day

we still don't know the true toll, don't think we ever will, the one couple i know who were found floating face down in their attic because of the london avenue canal breach, that is death by drowning, they are not on the list, my friend who died in the evacuation is not on the list, jeez, that's 3 katrina dead i know personally not even included in the toll, i mean what does it take to be considered part of the death toll of this storm, i think many thousands must have died and they are mostly only acknowledging dead found in st. bernard and 9th ward, it's just ridiculous

everyone who was lost should be remembered not just a percentage that it's politically convenient to acknowledge

this gov't lives in terror that the truth will come out abt the numbers of retired middle class white people who died, that's all i can figure, because the middle class of this country would suddenly be in an uproar if they knew it could happen to them

[ohio_liberal]

71. I'm so sorry for the loss of your friends

I won't forget :cry:

[TankLV]

82. Wow - I am totally sorry for the loss of your friends.

Words fail to sufficiently convey that.

[pitohui]

58. direct yr outrage accurately, appreciate yr concern but don't scattershot

the WTC is a pimple on the butt of this thing, 3 buildings in new york and part of the pentagon, come on, this doesn't compare

people must think louisiana and mississippi are really tiny states is all i can figure

you can't compare the size of the rebuilding effort to what was needed in new york, you compare it what was needed in, say, nagasaki after the bomb, or kobe after the earthquake, or munich or dresden or nuremberg after the bombing

we are talking about an area of destruction that covers hundreds of miles of coast from the louisiana/texas border, not a small part of a small neighborhood of one borough of one city

as far as ninth ward being a developer's waiting game, i don't quite see how, the value of the land is nearly nothing, i live in a much better neighborhood, not to brag, but i do, and do you know the value of my lot

it is $16K

that is not a misprint, that is sixteen thousand dollars

in other words, any developer who really wanted it could have bought me out years ago for little money -- and i'm 12 feet above sea level

the value of land in the lower ninth ward w. a house that will cost $4K to be demolished is about zero, no developer is going to waste $$$ on land that's below sea level when they have cheap options elsewhere

truth is, if developers had wanted the ninth ward, they could have bought it any time over the last few decades, they didn't because it ain't worth anything, guess what that's why poor people were allowed to live there in the first place

on valuable land, like in manhattan, the price of property is bid up and only the rich can own property, and often then it is only some miserable condo several stories in the air

the land in ninth ward is not valuable, nowhere is unimproved or spoiled land valuable anywhere in louisiana, now mineral rights may be another matter but you look for that in southwest louisiana not the 9th ward

the whole conspiracy abt developers is just crazy and makes no sense if you knew the land values here

i have put this challenge before, i'm serious, if you think this land is valuable, if you think a developer wants it, what is stopping you from buying some of it and developing it yourself? you would really be helping people out who need $$$ to get on w. their lives and there is no law that says you can't develop it responsibly, in a green manner, for mixed income levels, even there is a need for developers willing to do this

i think some poor people are being brainwashed to cling to their land instead of to demand mitigation, why is that i ask, well follow the money, if naive people and esp. old people are duped in demanding to stay in flood prone areas, the feds can wash their hands & doesn't have to pay them the mitigation to relocate them, it saves the feds money if they can fool these people into thinking their land suddenly became valuable because a hurricane hit & developers now want it because it's proven to be hurricane-prone, yeah, right, how does that line of logic even work on anybody who is not crippled by grief or alzheimer's, just think abt it for awhile, it don't even make sense

[nashville_brook]

68. good points all

i thought i was taking up your charge, but you're a bit ahead of me.

[nashville_brook]

69. buy low, sell high is not a conspiracy, btw. it's capitalism.

[TankLV]

84. That's true - think of what happened to Atlantic City before all the

casinos were built - and what is now also happening to the existing homeowners in Niagara Falls.

The homeowners are offered NEXT TO NOTHING, while their properties are taxed at the NEW VALUE, they are forced into bankruptcy and to abandone their homes for failure to pay the new tax rates, the developers then steal the property for payment of backtaxes and then resell at the new HIGHER value to the casinos.

It stinks. And NOBODY seems to care.

[TankLV]

83. We must think more in terms of Chicago and San Francisco after the havoc.

That would be a far more fair comparison.

I would agree that a single project or building is not an entire city.

But we could do a lot better if there was a DESIRE to do so at the national level, which there is NONE.

[malaise]

63. Too sad

that Christmas greeting on the car is hard to watch. How can people be neglected like this. Damn!!

[stanwyck]

70. But, but, but

what about Trent Lott's house? Dubya promised to get it all fixed up. Remember?
That speech he gave when he first, finally, landed in Lousiana after Katrina was abysmal. He was a disgrace. People were dying all around him. Literally. And he was joking about "having too much fun" and getting drunk on "hurricanes" while in New Orleans. Plus, he vowed to rebuild Trent Lott's house.
How do the conservatives explain his amazing disconnect during that interview? The man was joking and smirky while people were dying.
"You're doing a helluva job, Brownie!"
No. He wasn't.
And neither are you, George W. Bush

[Kellanved]

72. Be realistic

As a matter of fact, tehre is still war damage left in Berlin, sixty years after the war. Minor maybe, but still very much visible.

[greiner3]

78. 200 billion dollars?

What a bargain. They're better off now than before!:sarcasm:

[FreedomAngel82]

87. It's so heartbreaking

:( One of my aunts and I and my mother were talking about this this past week. How the republicans were doing nothing about it. :( You could tell she was very disgusted (I don't know who she voted for but she doesn't sound like a republican but of course I haven't had many political talks with her like I have other family members). :( My dad (who is a republican by the way) is hoping the first/second week of January to go down with a group from my church and help clean up and whatever else they have to do there. Gene Taylor has been amazing in the fight for them.