Some people here seem to not grasp this concept... HUMAN RIGHTS

[WildEyedLiberal]

LIBERALS believe in human rights for EVERYONE, PERIOD.

LIBERALS don't believe that it is ever right to torture, kill, maim, oppress, or persecute in the name of politics, ideology, religion, or nationalism. PERIOD.

LIBERALS believe in the equality of all people and their equal rights as HUMAN BEINGS as outlined by the UN Declaration of Human Rights. PERIOD.

That means LIBERALS can NEVER justify rape, torture, murder, oppression, or persecution by ANY government or ANY culture or ANY "values system" for ANY reason. PERIOD.

If you do not believe these things, YOU ARE NOT A LIBERAL. PERIOD.

[Mythsaje]

1. What brought this on?

Am I missing something?

[WildEyedLiberal]

2. You might be

This is what prompted the rant:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x368934

Be sure to read all the replies.

[Mythsaje]

6. I got you...

and, yeah, I have a few issues with the idea that cultural traditions excuse despicable acts. I'm not sure they'd give a crap whether we approve or not--they don't approve of some of the ways we exercise our first amendment, for example--but we can protest and exclaim our disgust for their behaviors in any way we so choose as individuals.

My ancestors used to raid their neighbors for cattle, sheep, and horses (the type of animal depends on which ancestor to which we're referring) and I hardly think you could use tradition as an excuse for reverting to that behavior, yet some people find it quite good enough to allow certain peoples to resume whale hunting.

I don't think traditions give you an automatic pass...nor should they. Some of my ancestors used to rove the seas, sack villages, and take slaves of any of the able-bodied people they chose.

Now the region from which these people originated is considered one of the most civilized in the world.

:shrug:

We can't FORCE people to ascribe to our beliefs, though we should effectively turn our backs on those who act so savagely--give them nothing of ourselves.

That may be our only recourse, in the end.

edited for a typo

[midnight]

3. I love your definition.

It is concept I grew up thinking, that this is how I should try and live my life as a christian.

[Behind the Aegis]

4. I agree!!!

Well done!

[Pushed To The Left]

5. Kicked and recommended

We need to get an international progressive movement going somehow.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

7. Agreed. I don't even care to read the thread that sparked this. n/t

[WildEyedLiberal]

8. It's appalling

It seems there are some "leftists" (or undercover trolls - who really knows) intent on personifying the Limpballs stereotype that "liberals" are hypocritical, morally relativist America-haters.

The more I think about it, the more "undercover troll" seems like a distinct possibility.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

9. As one individual who has

PTSD, I am finding DU rather disturbing in general lately.

I don't know how to clean it up, but I'm tending to stay away.

I'm sure that if that thread title you refer to has disagreements and it made you react as you have that it must go way beyond anything I want to read.

Really truly sick.

[Mythsaje]

10. No...

It's the ultra-tolerant, "they have a right to their cultural identity," meme, which, on the surface, sounds okay.

Some pagans are like that. Some aren't, thankfully. But you'll get a "there's no such thing as evil" thing from some of them, to which I reply "the fuck there isn't."

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

11. Cultural relativity is one thing. But as the planet has become more

globalized, the concept cannot IMHO be used to justify ANYTHING.

[Mythsaje]

12. I have said it before

and I'll say it again. Most of the world's religions can be boiled down to a simple phrase, which most proponents will happily ignore. "Don't be a selfish asshole."

Protect the innocent and vulnerable.
and
Treat people the way you'd like to be treated.

These aren't difficult concepts to grasp.

[genie_weenie]

19. Hasn't the problem with religion always been

those in power use religion as just another way of cementing their hold on their positions? "Blessed are the peacemakers" and religion started for the lepers, the poor and the meek had to be altered to conform with the views of those in power which back 1500 yrs ago, where illiterate, barbarians with a might-makes-right morality system and view of the world being nasty, brutish and short...

Just my view, I'm not disagreeing with your view on what the true principals of religion should be, just on what the world and men in power have made them...

[Mythsaje]

23. I personally consider revealed religion

to be the greatest hoax perpetratred against humanity in the history of civilization.

BUT some of the messages are good ones--they're just the messages the ones in power don't want to spread.

[nashville_brook]

26. it's *power's* problem... because in a civil society, we modulate power,

not belief, as a means for a perfect union.

as soon as 'belief' becomes the fulcrum for uniting, we are doomed.

[rman]

13. It's striking how some 'Liberals' push neocon philosophy

isn't it.
I suppose those are neo-liberals.

[Sinistrous]

14. Your post gets my first "K&R"

Thank you for cutting through the bullshit.

Sinistrous

[NoAmericanTaliban]

15. Sounds like what Jesus believes - wonder it the Christian Reich knows this

about him. They love to justify their own atrocities in his name. Not that I'm a Jesus freak - just want to point out the hypocrisy.

[nashville_brook]

16. you know -- i'm not disagreeing that all good liberals should

stand firm against raped teenage girls being hung ... but, clearly (sigh) this article is DRUM TAPS

"War! be it weeks, months or years, an arm'd race is advancing to come it."

be for human rights and womens rights -- do that, we should all do that -- but, we also need to be a critical consumers of propaganda during wartime. this particular instance reveals the whole stinky sausage: the neo-cons foment culture war where there is none. they want the mullahs to be as cartoonish as possible. they want the rank and file zealots everywhere to reach critical mass...

"War! an arm'd race is advancing! the welcome for battle, no turning away."

we had our chance to show our ability for improving the lot of women in the middle east when we invaded iraq. we failed. we failed on purpose. women's rights and human rights add nothing to the balance sheet.

stories about raped teenage Iranian girls are http://poetry.poetryx.com/poems/577/">DRUM TAPS.

what about suttee?
what about the african cliiterodectomy?
what about the women here in the US who are becoming the victims of our own culture war?

you can't be an effective patron of peacework, and effectively work for human rights and women's rights if you let the DRUM TAPS in your head. as a woman who abhores both rape, and hanging raped teenage girls in Iran -- i beg you guys... chill on this...

(but yeah, it's bad -- it's all bad.)

[PassingThrough]

17. Well, not to be picky but.... :)

The statement, "That means LIBERALS can NEVER justify rape, torture, murder, oppression, or persecution by ANY government or ANY culture or ANY "values system" for ANY reason. PERIOD." does not always hold true. There are no absolutes.

True, rape and torture are never justified but I respectfully disagree with murder, oppression and prosecution. Take for instance Nazi Germany. It was neccessay to murder, oppress and prosecute them. Unfortunately in this world their is a time and place for violence. I wish it were not so but it is the reality of the current state of humans.


Peace Out

[CornField]

18. Ask yourself this: These types of human rights violations have been going

on in Iran and similar countries for YEARS. Why does it seem the American people are drowning in such reports NOW?

Hint: those drums are sure getting loud

Finally, this is no way excuses the actions being taken against this girl or the others like her. This also does not excuse the genocide going in other parts of the world (which we aren't hearing much about -- why is that?)

It is no longer sufficient to hear the news reports and react to them. It is imperative to hear the news reports, look into the situation and ask yourself why that particular information was moved to the top of the news feed.

[nashville_brook]

20. they are justifying war based on RELIGION

they use this so our monkey brains think 'muslim'='rapists'

it'll work just fine here as 'liberal'='rapist'

still more evil - it doesn't matter what 'WE" think as americans or liberals -- this is pointed at iranians.

[CornField]

22. Actually, they are simply trying to justify an unjustifiable war

Those who wish us to enter another conflict don't give a damn why we go...

whether it be because liberals lead with a human rights charge... or because religious zealots lead with a cross over their shoulders...

They don't care how it happens, only *if* it happens.

[nashville_brook]

25. rumsfeld talking up war in iran, it's like... "you and what army?"

and that is the really scary thing. i'm a child of the cold war. he's not talking about taking an army in. he's a New War kinda guy.
new.
cooler.
war.

[genie_weenie]

27. You go to war with the army you've got!

I'm sure alot of Western Union Telegrams saying, "Congratulations Mr. Honorably Discharged, welcome back for the new OIF!" Will be sent out.

- you see if they name it OIF (Operation Iranian Freedom) W(ar) won't have to go to Congress and get them to approve military actions, it will be all under the inclusive War on Terror Umbrella...

[KittyWampus]

21. Thanks, that's the basic point I try to make in Chavez threads.

[Rocknrule]

24. Commie!

Treating others as equals and as human beings is just plain unAmerican and unChristian!
:sarcasm: