What the hell has God done for us?

[Christa]

From a miner on CNN just now. He continued: "Just a few minutes before we were praising God"

More questions than answers.

[htuttle]

1. "I don't mean a big reduction in the price of beer..."

"...but all the people that you made in your image,
see them starving on their feet
'cause they don't get enough to eat
from God, I can't believe in you..."
-- XTC, Dear God

[FSogol]

2. Great song. Have to go home and get that record out. n/t

[Strong Atheist]

3. You know MY answer.

:evilgrin:

[Connie_Corleone]

4. Last night, I was wondering why people were going around saying

that God performed a miracle because 12 survived but 1 died? So, God performed a miracle for 12 but let the one die?

Then, I wake up this morning and now it's a miracle one survived but 12 died?

Go figure.

[Obamarama]

6. Well, if the dead one was gay, that would explain everything...

Right?

[lectrobyte]

72. but if the survivor was gay, would Pat Robertson's skull implode

live on the 700 club? That'd be some must-see TV.

[Protagoras]

97. think they could turn that into a screensaver?

I mean um...well that would be wrong and crass and all but I suspect there would be a market for it.

[pitohui]

7. people are in fear i think

all these people after katrina running around saying, "praise the lord," well, you know what, the lord doesn't deserve my praise or even my respect or anything but my darkest hatred for his actions in the manner

and you know what, i have not been struck by lightning for saying so either

people praising the lord at this time of century are like abused children who are afraid to badmouth their parents or who have become dependent on abuse as a proof of love -- they are special, they are being tested

it's pathetic

if the miner did say, "what has god done for us?" good for him, i'd say the same but prob. not in front of the news man

god has much to answer for, how long does god get a free pass over actions he may or may not have taken 2000 years ago?

[Beetwasher]

19. Gotta Love That God! He's Always Got An Out!

My kinda guy. There's always a plan "B" when he's around.

[Ladyhawk]

23. Fuzzy Fundy Math?

:shrug:

A plane crashed in a cornfield.
A hundred people died.
It's a horrible loss of life,
But they said, "Thank God two survived."
I don't get it. This world seems so confused.
Is everybody crazy? I've got the freethinker blues.

-excerpt from "Freethinker Blues" by Dan Barker

[papau]

90. As a song writer, Barker is better as a failed theist. Not that as an

author or analyst he is that good, but that "song" is - as a song - not my cup of tea.

:-)

[Mr Rabble]

61. God traded the 1 guy for a Texas win in the USC game.

Apparently...

The talking fucking snake.

[papau]

5. Why does God allow innocent people to suffer?

Why does God allow innocent people to suffer?

The "problem of pain," as the well-known Christian scholar, C.S. Lewis, once called it, is atheism's most potent weapon against the Christian faith. How can a God of love permit such things in His world as war, sickness, pain, and death, especially when their effects often are felt most keenly by those who are apparently innocent? Either He is not a God of love and is indifferent to human suffering, or else He is not a God of power and is therefore helpless to do anything about it. In either case, the Biblical God who is supposedly one of both absolute power and perfect love becomes an impossible anachronism. Or so they claim!

The classic answer is to reject the question - saying God created us and our minds and if our minds do not understand the mind of God, was not our assumption that they would understand the mind of God perhaps a bit presumptuous.

Better IMHO is the answer found in When Bad Things Happen to Good People by Harold S. Kushner. (Editorial Reviews:Amazon.com-Rarely does a book come along that tackles a perennially difficult human issue with such clarity and intelligence. Harold Kushner, a Jewish rabbi facing his own child's fatal illness, deftly guides us through the inadequacies of the traditional answers to the problem of evil, then provides a uniquely practical and compassionate answer that has appealed to millions of readers across all religious creeds. Remarkable for its intensely relevant real-life examples and its fluid prose, this book cannot go unread by anyone who has ever been troubled by the question, "Why me?") For those tired of "it's all part of God's plan," "everything happens for the best," or "it just wasn't meant to be," the Rabbi offers a refreshing point of view that differs from those who think everything occurs on earth because God wants it that way, and at the same time provides a surprising comfort in the fact that events actually can, and do, take place for no reason at all. We know in Science, Quantum Mechanical Physics has broken "causality" in the latest science revelations that can be thought of as action at a distance. Yet we insist on we have a right to reconcile the common Judeo-Christian view of God and causality without adopting a perspective of life that holds a place for randomness and happenstance.

Yes! Things happen in life that God has nothing to do with, and there is a way to find peace in accepting this. And this is an excellent logical discussion of the topic.

[wicket]

8. I loved Kushner's book "How Good Do We Have to Be"

Incredibly powerful and it helped me through a particularly rough time in my life.

[Connie_Corleone]

9. I'll have to read those books.

[pitohui]

11. sure but the imperfect god is not really god, you know

there is a limit to how much an invisible being can be forgiven and still expect to be worshipped as my superior rather than as my equal, whose friendship i can just as well reject as useless or a drag on my energy

someone else may find this friendship more comforting or more valuable

but that is not GOD

that is just somebody who happens to be invisible who fucks up like everybody else

we devote too much time and attention to this imperfect invisible person compared to what we devote to imperfect visible people

maybe it's easier to look good when you don't have to keep fixing yr make-up for the camera i don't know -- but i don't really see how kuschner's thesis is anything but a nice way of saying, god can't really be arsed to exist

there is no all-knowing, all-powerful god

so we're all in agreement!

[papau]

24. all-knowing, all-powerful god sets up system for humans for unknown reason

and with hard to understand design!

So we are all agreed?

:-)

[TahitiNut]

12. Yin and Yang - Light cannot exist without darkness ...

... and no glass can have fullness without emptiness. We cannot perceive anything without its opposite ... even God.


"Fish will be the last to discover water." -- Albert Einstein

"Your joy is your sorrow unmasked. The deeper that sorrow carves into your being, the more joy can it contain." -- Kahlil Gibran

[AZBlue]

22. Exactly.

And, we have free will. God is like a parent in my opinion - one who gives us the necessary knowledge but if we ignore it and cross that crowded street anyway, we are acting with our own free will and the outcome may not be positive. I'm NOT blaming the miners for going in - a lot of people knew the situation at the mine and did nothing.

Conversations With God is another good book to check out.

[TahitiNut]

27. Yep. I've read and own all three volumes.

Neale Donald Walsch offers a LOT to stimulate thought and contemplation. I personally don't buy any of it literally ... but see the paradigms and concepts as very useful in forming my own comprehension and guiding my own inner experience and exploration.

I'm about as far from a dogmatist as anyone can get while still forming strong (evolving) opinions. :evilgrin:

[malaise]

71. all gods are man-made n/t

[HR_Pufnstuf]

122. There we go.

HR's philosophy is taking over.

God was created in the minds of mortals to explain the unknown.

Period.

[malaise]

138. That's been my philosophy

for decades.

[raccoon]

17. That book answered a lot of questions for me.

I strongly recommend When Bad Things Happen to Good People.

[moggie]

28. Sorry, I don't buy it

Quantum mechanics? I don't see how a set of principles which govern the behaviour of subatomic particles can explain a macro phenomenon like a god being unable to save a child. But that's typical behaviour for the superstitious: they reject and denigrate science when it's inconvenient to them, but are happy to cherry-pick its weirder parts, always in a superficial, hand-waving way, in a desperate attempt to prise open another gap for their god to live in.

Shorn of the mumbo-jumbo, your thesis amounts to saying "sorry, it turns out our guy isn't omnipotent after all. He wants to do good, really he does, but his hands are tied. So please don't blame him when bad things happen. But don't stop crediting him when good things happen, ok?". It seems to me that only the wilfully blind would fail to see through this.

[papau]

31. Try to think "Newton causality and QM randomness and action at a

distance".

Now form a world view based on the above.

Now explain why the above world view does not "explain" God's actions?

Indeed, Shorn of the mumbo-jumbo, what does QM teach you?

This is your science final and I will be back after an hour.

Good Luck!

:-)

[moggie]

36. You know that's not how it works

If you want to play at science, you need to play by the rules. In particular, since you're the one making the wild claim, you need to be prepared to formulate it in concrete and testable terms, and be prepared to defend it. So far, all you've given us is content-free speculation which would be laughed out of a Kansas schoolroom.

You're welcome to your god, on faith-based terms. But once you enter the realm of science, rational enquiry rules, and there will be questions to answer.

[papau]

39. Afraid that is how it works in cutting edge physics - why do you claim

otherwise?

Content free is not what you were given.

The way the world works - current science theories - is Newton causality except when there is no causality in the QM world - or have you not heard about the latest in QM?

Action at a distance that can affect results where the fellow that is at a distance has no clue as to the item that is affecting their result is a current concept, and indeed not a new concept - check out this write up:

http://www.cebaf.gov/news/internet/1997/spooky.html

Translating the above into a world view - a view of how the world works - and we get to something that maps quite nicely on the Rabbi's view of how God and this world work.

QM's "concrete and testable terms" yield "spooky" results - does this mean GOD is proven?

"Spooky" does have a nice life after death tone, don't you think?

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[beam me up scottie]

59. !~

:popcorn:

[papau]

70. That would be simple little one - no one knows "how it works" but the math

is straight forward

QM treats everything by a "wave function" with high points, low points and tapering off into infinity. Everything is everywhere until you "freeze frame" it. All you can get are equations that give you the correct answer.

The wasy you understand those equations - or model them if you like - does not matter as to getting the answer. You can take any view you want in effect because words fail to capture the entire picture.

Wave function equations are quite solvable, but getting the wave equations for a given situation is a task, and one needs computers to get real time answers.

As to "complete with the mathematics" and "full of shit", perhaps a freshman course in physics and manners might be useful to you your future success in this area.

[salvorhardin]

83. No one knows how it works?

It's a miracle!

I think hundreds of thousands of eletrical engineers and physicists would see the bullshit in that one.

Sorry, since you don't even give any recognition as to what a tunnel diode is, much less explain how it works then I have to conclude that you indeed are full of shit.

[papau]

87. When will you learn that math - and manufacturing techniques - do not

give a complete picture of how something works.

Diodes existed before QM tunneling theory - or did you not know that?

The QM effect discussion goes back to 58.

Do you want some boilerplate like:

When a p-n junction is first created, conduction band (mobile) electrons from the N-doped region diffuse into the P-doped region where there is a large population of holes (places for electrons in which no electron is present) with which the electrons "recombine". When a mobile electron recombines with a hole, the hole vanishes and the electron is no longer mobile. Thus, two charge carriers have vanished. The region around the p-n junction becomes depleted of charge carriers and thus behaves as an insulator. However, the depletion width cannot grow without limit. For each electron-hole pair that recombines, a positively-charged dopant ion is left behind in the N-doped region, and a negatively charged dopant ion is left behind in the P-doped region. As recombination proceeds and more ions are created, an increasing electric field develops through the depletion zone which acts to slow and then finally stop recombination. At this point, there is a 'built-in' potential across the depletion zone. If an external voltage is placed across the diode with the same polarity as the built-in potential, the depletion zone continues to act as an insulator preventing a significant electric current. However, if the polarity of the external voltage opposes the built-in potential, recombination can once again proceed resulting in substantial electric current through the p-n junction. For silicon diodes, the built-in potential is approximately 0.6 V. Thus, if an external current is passed through the diode, about 0.6 V will be developed across the diode such that the P-doped region is positive with respect to the N-doped region and the diode is said to be 'turned on'.".......

or do you want the Shockley ideal diode equation that is used to approximate the p-n diode's I-V characteristic? Or are you hot for a wave equation or two?

I thought you were an undergrad , but perhaps you are in high school?

In any case I am discussing the forest but you seem to want to discuss a tree.

I agree QM "works" in particle physics and developes neat devices. Will you agree that the word picture used to explain QM is spooky?

Nah - I guess not - seems your vocabulary is too limited and too inappropiate.

I guess I will have to live with your "full of shit" conclusion.

:-)

:toast:

:-)

[salvorhardin]

93. Nice cut and paste from Wikipedia

Please cite your sources next time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diode#Semiconductor_diodes

You still haven't addressed tunnel diodes. Still bullshitting.

[papau]

99. I said it was boiler plate - do you not get it?

Indeed if given a wave equation I'd fire up MathCAD and type it in.

What the hell are you pushing for - a test of HTML writing skill so as to get an equation on a DU message board?

The desire to complain about provenance rather than concept is a GOP technique these days. You have learned very well from them and I give you the respect I give them.

[salvorhardin]

102. I'm simply "pushing for" you to show why I should respect your opinions

If you want to believe in a religion, then I'm fine with that. But why try to give it a veneer of science that you clearly don't understand? Are you so unsure in your beliefs that you need to try and gussy them up with that secular science you deride so much? Don't try to talk about stuff you don't understand. It makes you look like an ass.

Oh, and quoting other people's work without proper attribution also makes you a plagiarist.

[papau]

106. Sorry - but I do understand it - even have a transcript and grades

But you are correct as to my not being in the field.

Within 10 years of degree I could no longer read the Bell Labs Journal beyond the summary (my excuse being a career as an actuary).

But so what - little has changed since 63 and John Bell. - although I do still only read summaries.

[salvorhardin]

107. Little has changed 50 years?

Time stands still! Another miracle!

Summaries do not an understanding make. Sometimes they make a bullshit artist though.

[papau]

109. Ouch - it hurts when you score one! well done on the debate scale - but

you are still wrong - the spooky QM of John Bell's 1963 note has not changed.

But Man - that did hit home - "Sometimes they make a bullshit artist" is my own opinion of my attempt to keep up via summaries - and is something I try to watch for.

But I am still correct! At least in my humble opinion.

:-)

[Lindacooks]

125. Just ignore him. It makes life so much easier.

[Cats Against Frist]

119. Isn't this a good time

for someone to chime in with the "physics save me from metaphysics" quote?

This discussion is pointless, because most of it is philosophy. If I have a turd in my hand, and ask three people how it got there, and one says dog, another says cat, and the third says "God," then, the person who answered "God" is working on a whole different perspective. None of these things have to be explained by anything resembling our idea of God. That's an overlayed construct, over the physics. Pointless.

On edit, to elaborate on my woefully inadequate critique:

I mean, where does the "god wants to do good things, but his hands are tied," stuff come from, anyway? Surely not equations. There are infinite other philosophical yarns that can be made up to take the place of the God Construct -- and what about what's incomprehensible to us? If we cannot comprehend other dimensions, why do people assume we can comprehend anything about who or what created the universe? What if god is just a big hockey fan, and he doesn't care about shit, but, instead of coming down and blah blah blah-ing on the cross, and pontificating on golden rulers, he just came down as Wayne Gretsky, and wanted to get his stick on?

[moggie]

139. That's ridiculous

God's not a hockey fan. Everyone knows she's a Skee-Ball fanatic.

[SidDithers]

103. Hehe...

Go tiger! :)

Sid

[moggie]

54. You misunderstand

Or perhaps I should say "misrepresent", since I suspect you know that when I said "that's not how it works", I was referring to how you're attempting to "do" science, not QM. I'm reminded of a cartoon:



Yes, quantum entanglement is spooky. But it's a huge leap from experiments with paired photons, to claiming that QM "explains" some supernatural aspect of the macroscopic universe. What you've presented so far amounts to nothing more than saying "hey, QM is spooky, so perhaps other spooky ideas are true", a common theme with paranormalists. I think you should be more explicit in step two.

[beam me up scottie]

58. BWAHAHAHAHA !!!

How dare you insult his faith in QM???

[moggie]

64. That's a problem

Belief in QM isn't a problem, but faith in QM is. In religion, faith (the supposed method of arriving at knowledge without rational enquiry) is necessary, because the theists have found that rationality doesn't deliver what they need. But in science, faith needs to be kept on a short leash. If you let faith run riot, you get Lysenko.

But perhaps we should tread carefully, because when someone (mis)uses science in an attempt to prop up their religious belief, it's often a sign that their faith is weak, and that's gotta hurt.

[beam me up scottie]

66. "Belief in QM isn't a problem, but faith in QM is"

That's it exactly.:evilgrin:

The IDiots and fundies love to abuse science.

One of their favorite talking points is that we "worship" science.

They are still so threatened by knowledge that they can never let up on the attack.

Liberal believers don't need to malign science by equating it with religion.

[papau]

77. Again true moggie - you are beginning to impress me - which when

combined with a dollar gets you a dollar. But for what is or is not worth, I'm impressed.

Just for the record, noticing patterns is what humans do - sometime seeing patterns were there are none of course - but is that really a (mis)use of science in an attempt to prop up a belief?

:-)

[zippy890]

67. very well put

strange breed these 'Quantum Paranormalists',

how come people just can't let go of myths and miracles?

[papau]

78. LOL :-)

:-)

[papau]

74. Oh I agree - your point is well taken. Although I recall that it was in

Chemistry that "then a miracle occurs" with arrorws was the thing that chased me from organic!

But in terms of concepts, do you not see a mapping?

[moggie]

115. I'm afraid not

You seem to be drawing an analogy, but, while analogies can be helpful with abstruse concepts in science, they can also easily lead you astray when the concepts you're linking are not really as similar as you think. You need to follow through with rigour: "x is a bit like y" is nothing more than a starting point for enquiry. To quote Wolfgang Pauli, what you've suggested so far is "not even wrong".

I suppose QM provides some relief from the problem of evil if you accept the "many worlds" interpretation. In this, the answer to the question "why did God let my child die?" (or "why did God kill my child?") would be to point to an instant years ago when a subatomic particle did A rather than B. All the mind-bogglingly huge number of branches flowing from A result in a dead child, while all the mind-bogglingly huge number of branches flowing from B result in a live child. But this is of no use to the parent of the child in this universe: the other universes are inaccessible to her, and she would be justified in asking "but why couldn't an all-powerful god let my child live in all universes?". Evil in one universe can't be cancelled out by good in another which may as well not exist from the point of view of the first.

I can see why a theist would like a theory which calls classical causality into question. As (I think) John Stuart Mill pointed out, causality is a problem for an omnipotent being, since the need to do X in order to cause Y implies limits on power: an omnipotent being would simply will Y in some way completely unlike our own experience of how events occur. So any crack in causality is to be seized on eagerly by theists. But it's very curious to throw out omnipotence at the same time!

[Radio_Lady]

65. Papau, I wish I was intelligent enough to understand this article.

I'm just going to bumble along trying to be good to the folks who are good to me, not harming anyone or anything, and expect to go to a void after death in which there will be no Heaven or Hell, just peaceful nothingness.

It's the best I can figure out with the mind I've got -- not the worst one in the world, but not a quantum physicist's mind, either.

I get tired counting how many angels there are on the head of a pin. I just go out in the clear night air and look at the sky. I have no idea where we are or where we are going. The older I get, the less I care.

When I want some spirituality and connectedness, I show up at the Unitarian-Universalist Fellowship and listen to the lay-led (no minister) service. It allows me to sing a bit, laugh a bit, cry a bit, give some money to some folks who are more active than I am, and let it be.

In peace,

Radio_Lady

"Was it God who created men in His image,
Or did men have to create God in their image?"

The best theologians I've ever spoken to -- including Rabbi Harold Kushner of Natick, Massachusetts, have not explained this away to my satisfaction.

[papau]

76. Peace - and I also drop by Unitarian-Universalist for the fellowship and

songs and service, and return home to ponder.

Rabbi Harold Kushner of Natick, Massachusetts - is that still his address? I am within 7 miles of him - and as the wife visits the malls there, I could contact him rather than sit in a chair waiting for her to get done - if there wasn't this thing called manners and introduction needed.

Now I must scheme to get an introduction!

:-)

[Radio_Lady]

84. Last I knew, he was still the rabbi at the temple in Natick...

We lived in Sudbury, Massachusetts for almost 30 years, and were married by the other Rabbi (Lawrence) Kushner.

However, I've been away from there since 1998, so I'm not sure exactly.

[Radio_Lady]

86. Here's his biography, mentioning he is Rabbi Laureate in Natick, MA

Sounds like he's retired or semi-retired.

http://www.vbs.org/rabbi/hmsinstitute/hmsscholar/Biographies/Rabbi_Harold_S_Kushner.html

You might try calling Temple Israel for an update:

Temple Israel Of Natick
[phone]

Here's their website:

http://www.tiofnatick.org/

[papau]

88. Thanks for the info - so when do you come back to Sudbury?

I once thought of living there but at the time I was priced out of that market.

I'm considering Florida, but I prefer the weather around Boston - I think? sigh....

:-)

[Radio_Lady]

95. Well, papau, I lived in Florida for 28 years and cannot stand the

heat and humidity. My parents kidnapped me there when I was three years old. I finally escaped to New York and then Boston in 1972. So many people just love Boston, whether they are students or retirees.

In Florida, I have to be in airconditioning by the end of March until October. It's a real misfit for me. I married a man from Boston in 1973 and while I adored the place, the "Season of Death" (his description of winter!) really started to get to us in our 60s. Snow is beautiful, but driving in snow and ice and even walking in it loses its luster after thirty years. The year before we moved, we had 144 inches of snow at our front door. We followed our daughter and son-in-law out here and haven't regretted it. My stepson and stepgrandson still live in Boston, but my son is in Salt Lake City and my daughter is here in the same city I am -- Beaverton, Oregon.

However, we do go to warmer places in winter, as Portland has winter precipitation which usually falls as rain. The sky tends to be overcast but the temperatures are moderate, and any small amount of snow and ice just thaws in a day or two. But winter in Portland isn't bad -- lawns are green all the time, spring starts in February (no kidding!). Cherry trees in blossom the last week in February in secluded places), autumn lasts until December with the evergreen trees dominating the landscape. Summer is really gorgeous -- dry and bright with NO RAIN at all.

We also visit the West Coast of Florida (Sanibel, Ft. Myers, Marco Island) during the winter months and it's OK for a visit. We are purchasing a Hilton timeshare in Orlando, but we will be exchanging for other locations in their point system. We now own on Waikiki and in Las Vegas, through the Hilton Grand Vacation Club. We're retired and my husband is a travel junkie. The result is that we're gone for several months out of the year -- lucky to be healthy right now and enjoying life to the fullest.

Boston is just the most beautiful place, especially in autumn. I do miss it sometimes, but the west coast has a lot of offer. Maybe you can visit out here sometime! Have a great day!

Here's Mt. Hood in the clouds with its glaciers -- just 40 miles away and 11,000 ft. Beautiful and dormant!

[papau]

101. Cool! - My place in Safety Harbor (aka "Tampa") is great for short

visits, but I do not see us doing a permanent move. The place in DC is kept up for now but is likely to go.

Like yourself, staying near the grandkids is number one.

I should look into Hilton timeshares - Disney has been trying to sell us a timeshare for many years, but as you know the resale is not as easy as other real estate. Maybe in a couple of years when we decide we have had it with 150 inches of snow with black ice winters!

[AzDar]

105. You know what, my dear Radio Lady? I like the way you think. n/t

[Radio_Lady]

108. Thank you, AzDar. I appreciate the compliment.

I've been up all night (a rarity) -- a co-worker of mine from the late '50s died last night at age 80. He had a massive stroke last week and just succumbed. I just couldn't think and felt very tearful. I worked with him 49 years ago and wrote a guest book remembrance.

Life is brief, and then you're gone. Let's all try to be very kind to each other.

"Do unto others as they would do unto themselves." This works, except with masochists, of course! :sarcasm:

Hey, I'm gonna enjoy today! Are you in Arizona? What's the meaning of your screen name?

In peace,

Radio_Lady

[AzDar]

111. I'm sorry to hear about your friend. I am in Arizona...Chandler,

a suburb just southeast of Phoenix.
My screen name is of course, representative of Arizona, and the first 3 letters of my name (Darlene).
One of my New Year's resolutions (usually abandoned by the 15th or so..)is to try to focus more on the 'present', and enjoy my life more. It's very hard to do in times like these; but you are right, life is short!

[Warren DeMontague]

128. If ANYTHING, Quantum Interconnectedness and the Copenhagen Int.

Prove the LUDICROUSNESS of a "priviledged, anthroporphic, all-seeing, all-knowing, all-powerful being" (whether or not that describes your "God" isn't really my problem)... No, rather, the Copenhagen interpretation, and 'concrete, tested' aspects of QM like Bell's Theorem, can be interpreted to imply that there is a powerful, almost mystical force at work which has the ability to 'affect' reality via the collapse of the state vector...

BUT IF THAT ENTITY RESIDES ANYWHERE, YOU'LL FIND IT STARING BACK AT YOU FROM THE MIRROR, JACK.

In fact, if you want to try to shoehorn your theological fetishes into the realm of science, they better be prepared to play by science's rules- and if there was an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-seeing entity known as "God", wouldn't "he" be collapsing every probability wave in the universe? The role of individual perception would be negligible (and thus, not "concrete" OR "testable") because Mr. Big Invisible All-Powerful Sky-Man would be in charge of perceiving everything.

But, that aint what's going on, as anyone who has performed the double-slit experiment can tell you.

Get it? There would BE NO probability waves or state vectors, if the 'man in charge' was watching and seeing all. Heisenberg would have a certainty principle, instead of an uncertainty principle.. dig?

Hey, you insisted on dragging your badminton set onto this particular football field. It serves you right.

Now, to be fair, Quantum Mechanics doesn't have jack-didddly-shit to do, specifically, with "God" (however you choose to define him/her/it), but if I had to argue one way or the other, I'd say it's just another in a long line of proven scientific TRUTHS which make a literal reading of the bible or the more dogmatic forms of Western Religions as tools for explaining and understanding reality increasingly, obviously, outdated.

Got faith? Hey, that's great. Then have enough FAITH to not try to fall back upon someone's drastically wrong mis-interpretation of science to "prove" your religious views.

[Critters2]

32. So,,,

are Christians completely unwelcome here? If so, should I just vote Republican?

[Lindacooks]

35. I'll bite.

Christians are welcome here, in fact, the Democratic party follows Christ's teachings and lessons while the Republican party does not (helping the poor, sick, young, elderly, etc.).

The problem comes in when human beings attach some kind of 'God test' to things that happen because of the laws of physics and biology. To say that God blessed someone because they survived, while others are in agony because their loved ones died, is offensive and illogical. Did God not care about those who died? Are they cursed? There has been so much human suffering just dismissed because of this line of 'thinking'. This is the same philosophy that says those who are poor or sick deserve it because God is mad at them or they have done something wrong.

You're attaching a moral judgment to nature and the odds of chance. THAT'S the problem.

[papau]

40. Why the hell is it offensive? - it is offensive to me that you ignore the

latest QM science. It is offensive to me that you think you can tell me that I am in error when I state that I feel blessed - for whatever reason, and expect me to say you have not offended me. Who the hell do you think you are - the Judge of why or why not bad things happen to good people that I must listen to and learn from?

Not all or even most theists says the poor deserve to be poor or sick - and to say that is a theist position is crappy logic (albeit it may be GOP logic).

You're attaching a moral judgment to faith and belief - and ignoring QM science facts in doing so. THAT'S the problem

[Lindacooks]

62. What the hell is QM science?

And I will tell you whatever I please. I was trying to explain to the other poster that claiming blessings from God when others are hurting is cruel and offensive. If that tees you off so much your faith must be very weak.

[papau]

81. Your "cruel and offensive" comment is offensive - but you get a pass

because you do not know better.

[Lindacooks]

112. How dare you?

You call yourself a 'Christian', but you certainly don't act like one. I just thank God that I won't have to read your offensive posts anymore.

[Lindacooks]

63. Oh, btw, I dare you, I just DARE you

to go and tell those miner's families that YOU are blessed.

[papau]

82. Been there and did that - you really do not understand people of faith

do you?

[Lindacooks]

113. Listen, you rude person.

I went to parochial school for 12 years so how dare you question my faith?

[Lindacooks]

114. You really went to people who are suffering and told them

that you are blessed by God because you are not suffering? How callous and cruel.

[moggie]

38. Why would you think that?

If you could even think of voting Republican, I suspect you wouldn't feel welcome here, no.

Many of us feel that science is under threat from the Republicans, with the aid of the Christian right, and we're very touchy about science being distorted for politico-religious ends (Intelligent Design being the most obvious, but not only, example). We're ready to call bullshit on bad science. Personally, I've always thought of freethinking as a characteristic of the left, so I make no apology for questioning any beliefs. I'm sure your faith will survive a little rough and tumble, if it's worth anything.

[papau]

42. Faith will "survive" any "freethinking bullshit" - and if you want to

question beliefs I suggest doing so in the theology forum.

The is a political board last I looked - and GD was for dumping on believers only when then screw up our political objectives.

What does the constant flame baiting theists accomplish beyond letting the world know you are "right"?

I join with you as to calling bullshit on bad science.

But "What the hell has God done for us?" is not about bad science.

[moggie]

56. You're the one who introduced the bad science

You don't get a pass on that wherever you do it.

[papau]

79. Nor should I get a pass on whatever I do - but do you not see the mapping

between QM and God concepts? -

not that it proves anything - but it sure is interesting.

And no- I am not claiming God is a wave function.

:toast:

:-)

[Warren DeMontague]

136. No, if anything

it's more proof that several thousand year old Western Religions are totally inadequate for mapping anything remotely resembling reality. See post #128.

[FreedomAngel82]

50. Don't speak for me

Don't say "we". Speak for yourself. This Christian is offended and I hope you apologize to those of us here who are Christian's. My grandfather was a Christian and a fan of science. Heck, he even worked at NASA for several years in Huntsville, Alabama and he was a Christian and a republican (and for the record he did not like Bush and he did vote for Kerry and loved FDR but that shouldn't matter).

[mondo joe]

98. Even if - as you ridiculously ask - Christians were unwelcome on this

message board, why would you conclude you should vote Republican?

How does one follow from the other?

[OldEurope]

121. Yes, that´s exactly what I thought.

[immoderate]

34. It's a short step from there...

to say that god has no role whatsoever in anything. This relieves him of looking fickle and neurotic.

If we can say that some happenings are independent of god, why not all? This is surely a better explanation of the way things work (or don't.) Otherwise you are still left with the problem of how and why god decides to intervene. Or if he doesn't, just why is he hanging around?

--IMM

[papau]

44. Indeed you are left with why does God not behave like a rule based

machine.

Most of us feel that is a better solution than pretending that all happenings are independent of God.

Of course the atheist has faith that he is correctly saying - and not just pretending - that all things happen independently of God.

But as a Democrat we are called to tolerate each others different viewpoints.

The constant flamebaiting of the theist and their views does not look like toleration.

[immoderate]

116. A caution against flame baiting?

...while smartly sticking in a phrase like, "...the atheist has faith that he is correctly saying..." Oh I see.

You yourself said that things happen independently of god. I ask, if some things happen independently of god, why can't all things happen independently of god? Could that be true? Deists might agree.

As a democrat (and a person) I tolerate all different viewpoints, but that does not extend to accepting statements that are inconsistent and contradictory. As a democrat, I also feel a responsibility to truth and reason. What you term flame baiting I call helping.

So set me straight. How can you tell when god is intervening rather than letting things follow their natural course? They look the same to me.

--IMM

[SidDithers]

118. The athiest may define himself/herself however they choose...

just as the Christian can.

It is not up to you to ascribe beliefs to me, just as I don't tell you how to be a Christian.

Sid

[Warren DeMontague]

123. So, wait a minute- which is it?

the opposite of 'pretending all happenings are independent of God', which you claim us habitually flamebaiting atheists are doing, is.. what? A view that all happenings are NOT independent of God. Right?

the Rabbi offers a refreshing point of view that differs from those who think everything occurs on earth because God wants it that way, and at the same time provides a surprising comfort in the fact that events actually can, and do, take place for no reason at all. We know in Science, Quantum Mechanical Physics has broken "causality" in the latest science revelations that can be thought of as action at a distance. Yet we insist on we have a right to reconcile the common Judeo-Christian view of God and causality without adopting a perspective of life that holds a place for randomness and happenstance.

Yes! Things happen in life that God has nothing to do with, and there is a way to find peace in accepting this.

You don't need anyone else in this thread, you're doing a fine job of contradicting and arguing with yourself.

[lildreamer316]

47. NO. THE BEST ANSWER IS FOUND

in Richard Bach's book "Running From Saftey". I wrote down the relevant section word for word; but if you want it I will have to email it to you (copyright). Simple.Simply incredible.

And how does anyone KNOW that certain events don't have a purpose? Just because our minds can't concieve of a reason that something happened does not mean that it DIDN'T have a reason for happening. It could be so vast or so removed from you that you would never know how it enabled a lesson to be learned for someone or something else--but it did. Sorry, but isn't it a bit egotistical to assume that you CAN understand a reason for everything happening; and that if YOU don't; then there must NOT be a reason? Please! Even the best scientists and Quantum Mechanics experts don't try to assert they know EVERY POSSIBILITY.

This concept is so very important for many to understand (I personally believe). Of course I can definately be wrong. Summed up here:

THE ORIGINAL SIN IS TO LIMIT THE IS. DON'T.

[FreedomAngel82]

48. It's a thing called freewill

God can't intervine I highly believe because we have freewill. We're not robots and God can't turn us on and off. People like to think God is their fairy godparent but God isn't like that. It's like with the weather. If you fuck up the weather by messing with it and making it not go natural than I'm sure lots of problems could occur so thus big storms like Katrina is just mother nature (and global warming). When my grandfather died last summer I wanted to blame God because he was a good person, faithful Christian and did work in the church for years, for the government, etc. but he died of lung cancer and it was his decision and action(s) that made him get lung cancer. He smoked cigars and pipes when he was younger and it just caught up with him. I'm surprised my grandmother (dad's mom) hasn't had any problems with her lungs etc. We are in the fallen world: the world of choices and consequences and freewill. We can listen and ask for advice but in the end everything is up to us. Just like with your parents here on earth.

[Warren DeMontague]

120. Anyone using quantum mechanics to validate the western concept of "God"

doesn't understand quantum mechanics.

[Arugula Latte]

10. Why do people believe in a mythical being? is a better question.

Just sayin'.

[pitohui]

13. they don't really, they have to pretend they do

get people behind the barn & you'll find they have all kinds of ideas from the free-thinking to the first church of the space brothers -- and at least the space brothers belief is based on personal experience w. the entity, perhaps mis-interpretation of firing of the temporal lobe, i dunno, but it's a real personal experience instead of just having water splashed on your head

unfortunately in public to be part of this society you have to go along to get along

almost no one except crazy people really believe in a traditional god when you sit and talk to them, true fundies have that certain "aura" or "shine" just like true schizophrenics, but normal people who say they believe in god, talk to them, there is almost always aome twist they've put on it or some excuse they've made for god for not acting right -- and that excuse does boil down to god either isn't all power-ful (in other words he ain't really a god) or else he is putting us to some test (the sadistic god)

[papau]

25. WOW - now that is the product of science, observation and logic

:-)

How did you do on your physics test?

Ain't quantum a pain?

:toast:

:-)

[FreedomAngel82]

51. I find offense to that

I as a Christian and person who has had experience with the spritiual realms and helping spirits find offense to that. I don't HAVE to do any damn thing. I CHOOSE to and I do because of my personal life experiences with helping those who have passed on and need help.

[papau]

89. I honor you for your hospice work - but we still have different opinions

so I guess we are into tolerance?

:toast:

:-)

[sandnsea]

60. So imperfect people don't understand God

That doesn't define an imperfect God, that defines an imperfection in people. Imperfect people don't understand a perfect God. Nothing particularly sinister or confusing about that. We've only had penicillin in the last 100 years. Was it a problem with God that people hadn't found it, or a problem with people. :shrug:

[happydreams]

129. WINDY!! Is that you??? I knew you was a true believer.

Pretty good rap too....for a true believer.

[happydreams]

130. That's what bothers me. The social pressure to buy this

crapola. It is really mind-numbing.

IMO this mythology pushed on us as if it were true is the underpinning of alot of other social ills; namely dumb-dumbitis.

[Ron Green]

16. Because the myth is an important part of being human.

I suggest that the intelligent person does not reject all myth as he learns to be rational, but rather studies and uses myth in appropriate ways to help navigate the mysteries.

[theHandpuppet]

14. GOD: all praise and credit, no accountability or responsibility

Sounds like a certain meglomaniacal pretzel-eater we know.

[Christa]

20. Just like Dubya. nt

[Arugula Latte]

21. Heh heh. Good one.

:thumbsup:

[happydreams]

131. Yep!! It is a heirarchy. Neo-fascist Leo Strauss, the father of PNAC

Knew how it worked and philosophized that leaders should promote religion only don't follow its principles yourself.

[Clark2008]

15. You're forgetting the very fundamentals...

Those 12 miners are better off in (hopefully) Heaven than they are down here. There is pain from their families.

So, ask not what God does for you, but what God did for your one passed.

It's the 13th miner, alive, who is suffering the most.

[Beetwasher]

18. He's Fighting The Terrorists Over There

So we don't have to fight them here? :shrug:

[BoneDaddy]

26. Sports God

I always love when an athlete thanks God for the victory as if God is waving a teams colors.

I would love to see a losing athlete say " I thank Jesus Christ for the loss".

[kenny blankenship]

29. He gave unto you a wise and just ruler: GEORGE W., the First

Now get on your marrow-bones and praise them both, Mr. Whiney American't Workerbee!

[Sapphire Blue]

30. What are we doing for ourselves AND each other?

Something I posted on another thread...

Doesn't it seem that so many sit in comfort, judging or ignoring others who need our voices to speak out on their behalf... be they death row inmates, people living & dying in poverty, hurricane & earthquake survivors, the people of Darfur, and on, and on, and on... each and every one a brother or a sister. When will the people on this planet start thinking about & caring for each other as the brothers & sisters that we are? When will the indifference stop? When will we realize that we are in this together, that each of us is a minute speck in this universe, yet everything that we do has an impact on this universe? Why can't we strive to make a positive impact? Why can't we open our hearts?

In the words attributed to Chief Seattle...

"This we know: the earth does not belong to man, man belongs to the earth. All things are connected like the blood that unites us all. Man did not weave the web of life, he is merely a strand in it. Whatever he does to the web, he does to himself."

May God / Goddess / Allah / Jehovah / YHWH / the Creator / Waheguru / the One have mercy on us, awaken our souls and restore humanity!


The Perils of Indifference (a speech by Elie Wiesel): http://easylink.playstream.com/historyplace/thp-wiesel.rm

[Generator]

33. Exactly, why the F does God get the credit for all the good stuff

and none of the bad? He just killed a bunch of miners and made it like an episode of you've been PUNKED. God is very, very bad.

[No Exit]

37. God just isn't what he used to be.

I mean, I've been praying to him for 3 years, that he would smite Bush and Cheney. I specified that I only wanted him to make them get ill enough so that they would have to retire. That's all. A nice, easy, quiet, retirement.

And what does God do? He comes back and zaps Ariel Sharon. He missed it by a mile! Heckuva job, God.

[Garbo 2004]

43. LOL! (ok I lost another karma point for laughing, but it was funny.) n/t

[No Exit]

46. Oh, well! But, you gained a "schadenfreude" point!

Isn't that word, "schadenfreude", just about the favorite word of all writers of editorials and especially blogs, nowadays?

I didn't even know, really, what it meant, for a while, but I always got something approaching its meaning through context. Finally, a blogger defined it. I was grateful. LOL.

[papau]

45. you pushed the wrong button. n/t

n/t

[No Exit]

75. Yeah... not unlike what Junior probably does with the red phone! Yipes!

[FreedomAngel82]

41. Sad

:( He still has his life and family and friends. More than some people have.

[LittleClarkie]

49. I always wonder that

There was a guy on one of the televangelist shows a while back (a great while back) who was burned all over his body, and his wife was praising God that he survived. Would she have turned on God if her husband had died?

As for me, I can only reckon, good or bad, there's a reason for what happens somewhere. It serves some kind of purpose. Somehow. I can't say it was "God's will" though. But then this ain't exactly heaven we're living in here.

[FreedomAngel82]

52. Right

I am a person who believes everything happens for a purpose. Maybe those men died because they would've been worse off and died a slow and painful death. So I would be glad that they went quick and not in pain and not suffering and have returned home. Just know they aren't dead spirit wise and still there around you. Even though you'd lose your loved one he would die someday. Sounds mean, I know, but it's like with my grandmother. My grandfather (mom's dad) died last summer a few days after my birthday and she still goes on about missing him and how she wasn't ready for him to die. But he would've died sooner or later. Our spirits never die and we'll see each other again. When my grandfather died last summer I wanted to blame God, but than I remembered that my grandfather chose to smoke when he was younger and it caught up with him. Sometimes God doesn't have anything to do with anything in life. He isn't your fairy godparent.

[sargon9]

55. If they really believe in God then ...

... they should be happy. The ones who dies are with God. The one guy who lived was rejected by God.

[MrSlayer]

57. Yes, when there is no "miracle" then god killed the miners.

Fucking god. What a dick.

How about whatever happens, happens and that's it?

[XanaDUer]

68. Yes, god did his usual bang-up job.

:eyes:

It's sad. A strong union would do more than god.

[Nobody]

69. From an admittedly imperfect human being...

So far in my existence I have not:

Made an error in judgement that cost anyone their life.

Made an error in judgement that cost anyone their health.

The only error in judgement that cost anyone their livelihood was my own livelihood when I made the mistake of going into IT. (I count myself among outsourcing's jetsam) I have never made any errors in judgement that cost anyone else their jobs or forced them to take a pay cut.

But when I mess up in a small way, I hear about it. I take responsibility and do what I can to fix it. If I were to cause loss of life, limb, or livelihood, I may even lose my job or be brought up on criminal charges.

Those of you who believe in deities are certainly welcome to do so. But I have a "Huh?" moment every time deities get praised for things like protecting an infant when the 200 adult passengers and crew all die in a plane crash. Never mind that both the baby's parents died in that same plane crash and the kid will likely be bouncing around the foster care system until it's 18. Praised be Athena*! How come no one blames Athena* for allowing the plane crash to happen in the first place? Wouldn't it be so much easier to calm the turbulence the caused it? Or let the defective part hold together a tad longer? Or is technology not a match for divine power?

Go ahead and praise Athena*. Deities without power are just as worthy deities as those with power. Giving praise without attendant responsibility is like coddling a small child with severe self-esteem issues. We seem to have higher standards for humanity. I don't in any way say that's necessarily wrong. We should hold out own selves to as high a standard as we can manage. I certainly don't have the power to prevent a crashing airplane. But if I were on that plane, I do have the power to use my body to protect someone smaller than me in the hopes that it will help.

*Insert name of own deity here. I used "Athena" as a place holder.

[Peter Frank]

73. As tragic as this situation is...

...vastly more Americans will die needlessly if we lose focus on what's happening globally.

[Alamom]

80. Same song, 1000th verse

Not adressed to anyone in particular...just some thoughts.
Everytime I see a thread like this, I'm thinking
Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition.
(or the eternal, unwinnable argument)

Are we the party of tolerance or the party of judging people for who they are and what they believe.
You don't want their shit crammed down your throat, they don't want yours.

We will not win voters over to our side by ridiculing faith and spiritual beliefs, whatever it may be. There will be voters of faith and spirtual beliefs for a very long time and there are many.
Do we close the "Big Tent" or make it bigger?

Tolerance is accepting everyone for who they are, helping to change views in any way we can, hoping they will see the mess we're in and help vote us out of it.
What each person believes on a personal level is not important.
What we all see for the future of this country is all that matters.

We have to be more tolerant and accepting. (we do not have to agree, no two people agree on everything)

If we don't do it, the Republicans will as they did before and we're looking at another 4, 8 ,12 or more years of Republican Rule.
Close to half this country fell for it last time and will again if they don't find acceptance with the Democratic party.

The majority of these posts & threads are not acceptance. They are damning and judgemental.
If you can handle another few years of of what we have now, have at it, have fun, hawk your intelligence about everything on earth and beyond.
You may very well know everything there is to know.
I don't and I don't really care what you think you know. (they don't either)

Call them stupid, ignorant and fairy tale believers. Damn their God and them. That always goes over so well and converts so many people to your way of thinking, LEFT & RIGHT. :sarcasm:

I do know this and it's apparently a secret or already forgotten.......
The Repugs will welcome them with open arms, let them know they are accepted, WILL HAVE THEIR VOTES and WIN AGAIN !

We need TOLERANCE...of everyone, REGARDLESS.
Not just a select, self-proclaimed, super intelligent minority. Think about it.
There ain't enough of you (yet) to win squat.

Democrats.....we have to make changes in the government, whatever it takes. We are out of time.

Agree, disagree, flame away.....post your personal opinion.
My personal beliefs or opinions of others have no place in the job at hand.
We have to get out of this mess and we need great numbers of people in every state to do it.

If anyone has a better suggestion other than TOLERANCE of everyone who reads and posts here and everyone we come in contact with, lets have it.

[papau]

94. Well said :-)

:-)

[QC]

96. Excellent post!

Sometimes I wonder if more than five or six of us around here are actually interested in winning elections and doing some good in the world.

[AirmensMom]

127. Thank you, Alamom.

You said everything I was thinking ... only better. :applause: :yourock:

[happydreams]

132. "We need tolerance of everyone"!? Like....

Nazis, fascists, the Mafia, DINOs and other crooks, paedophiles? REpug paedophiles are commonplace. Well, it looks like the Right has accepted everybody and look at what a mess these "tolerant" people have made of the world. Anybody can get into their tent if they simply say they are true believers and contribute some dough. There are no standards. Robertson can go into his squinty eyed prayer look while profiteering off of slave labor in his gold mines in Africa.

[happydreams]

135. OK ignore the question. That says alot.

[Alamom]

137. Where's the question?

If anyone has a better suggestion other than TOLERANCE of everyone who reads and posts here and everyone we come in contact with, lets have it.


Here?
"We need tolerance of everyone"!? Like....
Nazis, fascists, the Mafia, DINOs and other crooks, paedophiles? REpug paedophiles are commonplace.



If so,
Answer: Maybe upgrade your contacts a wee bit.
Possibly...... a questionable bunch you're thinking of inviting to join us.


Use a little common sense. Works every time.

[happydreams]

141. What in the hell are you talking about?

You said to include "all" and I asked you about the above mentioned. Admit it you screwed up.

[OhioChick]

134. Damn Good Post, Alamom!

:thumbsup:

[Poll_Blind]

85. God's Song (That's why I love mankind), by Randy Newman

God's Song (That's Why I Love Mankind)

Cain slew Abel, Seth knew not why
For if the children of Israel were to multiply
Why must any of the children die?
So he asked the Lord
And the Lord said:
Man means nothing, he means less to me
Than the lowliest cactus flower
Or the humblest Yucca tree
He chases round this desert
'Cause he thinks that's where I'll be
That's why I love mankind

I recoil in horror from the foulness of thee
From the squalor and the filth and the misery
How we laugh up here in heaven at the prayers you offer me
That's why I love mankind

The Christians and the Jews were having a jamboree
The Buddhists and the Hindus joined on satellite TV
They picked their four greatest priests
And they began to speak
They said, "Lord, a plague is on the world
Lord, no man is free
The temples that we built to you
Have tumbled into the sea
Lord, if you won't take care of us
Won't you please, please let us be?"
And the Lord said
And the Lord said
I burn down your cities-how blind you must be
I take from you your children and you say how blessed are we
You all must be crazy to put your faith in me
That's why I love mankind
You really need me

An incredible song. Randy Newman, as always, nails it.

PB

[papau]

92. Disagree with the song - but it is a good song.

:-)

[DS1]

91. www.godhatesminers.com

Give it time.

[Javaman]

100. God was created by man...

The rest is fluff.

Frankly, if there is a god, it doesn't give a damn about us.

I think we are nothing more that a mold experiment in a petry dish, on some shelf in a lab somewhere.

Once in a while "god" pokes a pin into the petry dish to see what happens.

Think, lisa simpson and her tooth experiment.

[sendero]

117. And in the universe..

.... there are millions (infinite?) of other dishes, yielding both similar and dissimilar results.

[Zenlitened]

104. I think the miner you quoted in the subject line...

... has had his first glimpse at just how thin and fragile the facade called "faith" can be.

That's where religion based on comforting lies often does its most harm: the very moment someone is the greatest pain is also the very moment they realize there's no "there" there, when it comes to the notion of god they've been carrying around.

Some find a way to wriggle out of the doubt and right back into a patched-up version of their old religion. Some go searching for a better fit, some make the leap directly to agnosticism or even atheism.

It's a hell* of a learning experience, no matter what.



* Pun intended. :)

[peanutbrittle]

110. The basis of Christianity is

faith in things unseen i.e God's Universal Kingdom with all of it's entities ie Angelic beings, etc.

Faith is intended to put to the test the unseen world of truth, love, law, hope, redemption.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for

Faith is God's way of forcing man's growth

Most Christians understand that God does not intervene in every circumstance. Most earthly tragic events are coincidences as a result of man's world or events of nature.

[happydreams]

133. You should see the "Victory of Faith" by Leni Reifenstahl (sp)

Its about how the Nazis rose to power because the people became true believers.

[onefortheroad]

124. Nothing...

You need to do for yourself.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

126. There are three possible answers:

1) Nothing.

2) Everything.

3) We don't know

If you are a devout or casual Athiest, then the answer is #1

If you are agnostic then the answer is #3

If you have do believe in a higher power then your answer is #2.


This question reminds me of when my kids complain and say I do nothing for them. Which is true, other than giving them life, food, shelter, education, and all the other luxurys we Americans take for granted. I also have to punish them sometimes for when they misbehave.

Is my simple and (admitdly) puny analogy applicable? See answer #3 :)

But personally, when I look at what we know about the universe and its incredible complexity, and all the things we know that we don't know...lets alone things beyond our imagination and which lie ahead for our exploration..It all makes me feel pretty damn small. Extremely small.

So small in fact, that I would be an arrogant fool to insist that I have the answers on whether a higher power exists, and if so what he does for us.

The answer is unknowable.

[eve_was_framed]

140. who can blame him for feeling the way he does