On methamphetamine, and why my opinion matters

[skids]

This here flamefest got me thinking:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x602466

I'm in a position to maybe help this guy out. See, I've been a decriminalization/legalization activist for a good long time. Heck, I'm the author of one of the early Internet tomes on the matter (the Alt.hemp FAQ.) I co-founded the longest-running college marijuana law reform organization in the country, and damn near let running it ruin my academic career.

So listen up.

Methamphetamine is not marijuana. It's not acid. It's not cocaine. It's not heroin. It's not a prescription opiate. It's not esctasy. It's not psylocibine. It's not mescaline. It's not ketamine. It's not alcohol. It's not nicotine. It's not caffeine, and it sure as heck isn't a food suppliment.

Meth is different.

Meth is the "hardest" drug we have out there in large quantities, hands down. Yes, hands down even over heroin and crack. But that's not what makes it so different.

Meth, unlike most of the above, can be manufactured in a day or two and then the lab site abandoned. But that's not what makes it so different.

Meth, unlike most of the above, is prescribable by a physician (in time-release form.) But that's not what makes it so different.

What makes meth different is it's practically the only drug that the DEA has actually managed to do anything efective at all to control, and they did it without the usual goose-stepping. Yes, they did the goose stepping too because that's in their nature, but that's not the tactic that worked. The tactic that actually worked -- tightening the feedstock chemical supply -- is arguably a whole lot better than home invasions and didn't even require killing peasants with pesticides.

Now I don't like it very much that my choices and convenience as a consumer has been infringed upon by that policy. I aso know that in a reasonable drug policy, the demand for meth would be much lower due to the availability of lower-grade amphetamines/stimulants for those trying to "cut back" under the supervision of a doctor. Heck, even a clean, dose-controlled meth prescription would be preferrable to the roller coaster street potency that keeps users in the binge cycle.

I know all the arguments for everything from mild decriminalization to full-out legalization. There is no way I would be considered anything but a radical legalizer to most squares.

Those arguments do not apply to methamphetamine in the current context. We are so far right now from a rational drug policy that by the time a harm reduction strategy could be put in place for this particular drug the epidemic would have done huge amounts of additional damage.

So when someone says they are really concerned with meth, and supports restrictions on feedstock for the meth labs, and border interdiction for imports, you don't have to give up your principles in opposing the War on Some Drugs to also be considerate enough to think about what the best policy is for now. That is, what do we do about meth in the intervening time between now and whenever we might someday get the asshats to get out of the way and install a reasonable drug policy in this country.

Hence, ergo, vis-a-vis, and whatnot: Methamphetamine is not a good topic of conversation in which to advocate for decriminalization or legalization. It's perhaps the only example of prohibition working, if imperfectly. It's also an emotionally charged issue for those who's neighborhoods have been negatively affected. So lay off, and try to be constructive.

[Rabrrrrrr]

1. Well said - methamphetamine has gone far beyond being a "drug"

or "recreational drug" or whatever one wants to call it.

it is a truly insidious, dangerous, life-destroying and community-destroying albatross.

And I am in favor of the legalization of, at minimum, organic natural drugs; perhaps even some synthetic ones (LSD, for sure).

But meth - that's just bad, bad, bad, bad shit no matter what direction one looks at it from.

Perhaps if we worked as a society to eliminate hopelessness and feelings of powerlessness, and brought into society more a sense of community love - or at least human dignity - for each other, we might not have the drug problems we have, and meth wouldn't be so damned tempting.

[Warpy]

5. We also got rid of most of it in the late 60s and early 70s

and we did it without jackboots and without forcing people with allergies to sign lists for the DEA to cream over at a later date. We did it with the words "Speed Kills."

For those of you who weren't adults back then, I'll tell you all about it. Meth is cheap and easy to cook. It was all over the place in the late 60s and early 70s. It was peddled as a great thing to do when the town was "dry" between pot harvests/shipments. It was just as bad a drug then as it is now. But we stopped it.

Meth heads became advertisements on why nobody should use that drug. They were jerky, couldn't stop talking, had bad skin and rotten teeth, and were the people you'd exit a subway car to avoid. Speed killed.

Meth use was always there, but it didn't start to explode again until the late 80s. What changed to allow it to start up again?

Interdiction got better. We had better drugs around in quantity in the 60s nad early 70s. That isn't the case now. The drug war just got successful enough to allow a very bad bathtub drug back in.

This is nuts.

[mike_c]

2. kudos for a lucid discussion....

Kicked and recommended.

on edit-- one thing that is often ignored in the discussion about methamphetamine is that it is very much a PRODUCT of the WOD. No tweaker (well, few tweakers) would choose home cooked meth over a clean amphetamine or cocaine if they were legally available. Meth exists to fill a void created by the WOD, and is proof that the WOD will NEVER be successful in any real sense. People will freebase battery acid if that's the only recreational drug available. That's a simple truth about human nature that we can either work with, and minimize the damage, or work against, which will never succeed and will only compound the damage immeasurably, as has happened in the WOD.

[DS1]

3. I say give them all the meth they want and let the problem sort itself out

and I'm not ashamed to say that.

[Fiendish Thingy]

4. So, can I open up the first free meth distribution center

in your neighborhood?
How about a meth lab next door?
Didn't think so.

That's like saying "let everyone drink and drive, it'll sort itself out"
Sheesh.

[DS1]

6. I really wouldn't care

If you could keep the place open long enough to finish the job.

[Bridget Burke]

38. And their kids probably wouldn't have amounted to anything, anyway.

Some of the kids might survive. Not that they'd be adoptable....

[RazzleDazzle]

95. Beat me to it. I wonder if this bold, visionary would be so

ready and willing to tell all the kids negatively affected -- and boy! wait til you see child abuse and neglect in a meth-drenched community.

There's also some indication meth is harder on women -- seems to get ahold of them and is much harder for them to shake it than men, and it's plenty hard for men. Women losing their children all over the place and obviously children losing their parents.

But hey, who cares about the kids? They'll only grow up with the same kind of wounds (or worse) that made their parents seek out effective self-medication to numb them out of their minds.

[eeyore]

16. Do you propose the same with guns?

Just give everyone guns and let God sort 'em out? You have absolutely no idea of what this has done to my state!

Sounds like you're from FEMA. Just let the fucking waters flood the city and anyone who can't make it out doesn't deserve to live.

Charming. Glad you're not my neighbor.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

20. As a former addict, I really appreciate your opinion

that I'm worthless.

You do realize that's what you're saying to all of us that managed to turn our lives around, right?

[DS1]

60. Congratulations

:thumbsup:

What made you quit? Was it a lack of availability of your own realization that you have to?

[Viva_La_Revolution]

83. I hated it. I was a slave to it, and I could feel it killing me.

It took a few years to get to that point, where I had to psych myself up to do enough to get to work, then try not to throw up for the next 1-2 hours.

I managed to hide it from almost everyone, even my kids, but I knew I wasn't being the Mom I could be.

I remembered a life before, where I didn't need it, and I wanted that life back.

After trying to get help for 3 years, in 3 different states, I got lucky in a way. My SO was addicted too, had an accident at work, got fired when the piss test came back. His parents were rich, so for the next 3 months we slept, recovered, refurbished their yacht and built a garden pool in their backyard to pay the rent.

I don't know if I should apologize for reading something into your post that wasn't there... it seems I wasn't the only one that took issue with it. It's a failed theory anyway. I was lucky enough to realize I didn't have to live that way. Everyone I knew then is either dead, in jail, still on it, or they have moved on to some other drug. We need to help them, not give them all they want and see how it goes... cause they'll end up dead or in jail.

[joeunderdog]

62. I didn't pick that up from the post.

Sounded like he thought that the destructive elements of Meth/addiction outweigh his own philosophical crusade for legalization.

For the record, I think I speak for alot of people here when I say that I look up to a person like you. You have a higher mountain to climb every day than most of us.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

81. actually, I have no desire for the stuff anymore

I've been in the same room with it, and felt no desire, other than to throw up.

can't stand to be in the same room with a tweaker, because it reminds me how I used to be, and I can smell the chemicals on them.

You never get over the shame though, and DS1 post here (and a more strongly worded one in another post that I can't seem to find) really cuts to the quick.

[Maat]

99. Wow. You should be very proud of yourself.

This retired social worker is sure proud of you. May you have great success in your life henceforth, after having negotiated that battle - you deserve it!

[0007]

112. Kudos to you.

[EFerrari]

109. Viva

:hug:

[Viva_La_Revolution]

117. aw you!

:hug:

[EFerrari]

139. We are so lucky you are here. 'Tanks

:)

[Swede]

26. So when a meth addict murders your mom in a psychotic haze

well that's just life?

[DrGonzoLives]

56. Wow

Let us know if you feel that way after you've been attacked by a methhead needing money for his next fix. Or when they get your kids hooked on it.

Hey, I have an idea. All those poor people in Africa? Cut 'em off and let nature take its course.

[DS1]

58. If they have all they want, they won't be needing to mug people

or steal stuff to buy more meth.

People seem to be missing this point.

I think if you're dumb enough to do meth in the first place, there's probably little chance for you elsewhere in life anyway.

[DrGonzoLives]

59. So, why not eugenics?

Let's weed the dumb people out through breeding strategy, eh?

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

68. You may want to rethink this position

I think if you're dumb enough to do meth in the first place, there's probably little chance for you elsewhere in life anyway."

You're painting with a very broad brush as to the worth of a person who has problems with meth. That's painfully small minded and very reminiscent of the way they treated crack.

Next you'll be saying how "those people" deserve whatever hell they're living through.

[eeyore]

70. My brother has a genius IQ and became a useless human being on meth

It has nothing to do with intelligence, addiction is an illness that strikes every walk of life, regardless of income level, intelligence or upbringing. My brother grew up with every chance to succeed in the world - natural intelligence, a healthy and supportive family, and plenty of money to educate him any way he chose. Unfortunately he has an illness that he likely was born with - he has a terribly addictive personality.

So, I guess you're saying that if you're prone to addiction, then you have no chance of becoming a productive member of society.

I hope you don't feel the same about mental illness or cancer patients.

[Dora]

92. Could be surprised at who's "dumb enough," and who comes out of it alive.

to go ahead and function in this society as a thinking, questioning, functioning citizen with interest in and compassion for the world around her.

Life is good, eh?

[RazzleDazzle]

96. "Dumb" has nothing to do with it. And I'd have thought most people

posting here would know better.

[Maat]

100. Well, Thank God my relative didn't listen to that sentiment;

he was addicted, and he quit 'cold turkey.' He's been clean for seven years now; he's a wonderful professional and a great dad!

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PsN2Wind]

76. What will they do with their time if they don't have to burglarize?

I tend to agree with you, but what if they had all the meth they wanted and didn't have anything to do with their non-constructive time? They are wigged out and wandering the streets in their paranoid state ready to fight at the drop of a hat and do God knows what. That would be the downside of giving them all they wanted......or maybe we could give them jobs taking things apart and scrubbing and cleaning. I don't know anyone that can disassemble and wash stuff better than a meth addict.

Mrs. Psn2wnd

[EFerrari]

93. Next time I see my kid, if there is a next time, I'll pass along

your message.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

101. Hugs to you

Just because no parent should have to go through that.

My parents almost lost me to addiction and alcoholism, and as a parent of young kids (14 and 9), it scares the shit out of me, because I know at some point there's nothing I can do.

I've seen your posts in these threads, and it breaks my heart. Prayers and hugs...

[EFerrari]

104. Back attcha. I sat it out with my mom. She's been clean 32 years now.

Both my boys were sitting ducks for addiction. One is in beautiful recovery. My youngest needs Idon'tknowwhat.

But, he'll make it. If only because we don't give up. How can anyone give up on something that beautiful.

:)

:hug:

[pitohui]

7. eyes roll

the trouble is that heroin was called far worse than cocaine and speed in the 70s, a mother would not abandon her baby for any drug but heroin

then in the 80s cocaine, once practically a vitamin in stephen king's wry words, became the worst of all drugs and a mother might quit heroin to give birth to a healthy baby but she could never, ever quit crack

oops, then after awhile it became apparent that lots of people did get bored w. crack and quit it, and now they are saying all the same stuff about how meth, which has been around all the time, is uniquely horrible and will cause a mother to abandon her kids blah de blah even tho no other drug could possibly have this effect, nope, today it's only meth that causes a woman to lose the maternal instinct blah blah blah

you see, some of us have lived this long and heard it ALL before about the ever-rotating drug of the decade that is so much worse than all the other drugs and there comes a point where, just as point of honesty, you have to call bullshit

i'm sorry that some people get hooked on meth, i'm sorry when people get hooked on any drug

but don't kid me that it's the worst drug ever and all that good happy, it's the hysteria itself that has made the drug so poisonous, when you could get good clean pharmaceutical grade speed, guess what, none of this sores on the face, tooth falling out, you hysterics POISONED the users yourself by bringing in legislation to make it more and more difficult to get prescribed and pharmaceutical grade, then when organic chemistry students started manufacturing pretty good stuff themselves in the labs, you brought in laws to make common chemicals difficult or impossible to get w.out being traced, which in turn led to this face-rotting crap that has to be made from any crap household chemical around

the people crying "oh woe" abt how terrible speed is are the ones who made it so terrible

[skids]

9. Yes, harm reduction would be preferrable.

...not to mention the big difference in socialization/culture between committing crimes for cash for overpriced street drugs bought in a bad neighborhood versus a person on a prescription.

I just don't see it happening anytime soon. If we can't get something as low-key as pot legalized, nor can we get needle exchange and other heroin harm reduction rolled out in any appreciable scale, expecting this country to competantly attack methamphetamine from that angle is just plain naive. And, as I said, as much as it pains me to admit it, source chemical reduction strategies do cut back on the problem's magnitude.

[Cronus Protagonist]

11. Thanks for that - you said it better than I could

I would have been flamed badly for saying anything close to that. Thanks for injecting rationality into the emotional hysteria surrounding meth. I've done it. I quit it. I've done crack. I quit that too. I've smoked cigarettes and I quit that as well.

If the arguments made in the thread starter were valid, they would apply to tobacco, and they don't, and in fact no one is making such emotional claims about tobacco, the most commonly used killer recreational drug in the world - people not only lose their teeth to tobacco, they lose their gums, lungs and hearts yet no one is banning any ingredients of cigarettes. The hypocrisy is so stunning it can only be born of ignorance.

[eeyore]

18. People don't blow up their houses cooking tobacco.

They also don't abandon their children to the state because they are so high that they forget about them. Tobacco users, of which I am one, don't leave their children sitting in their own filth to the point that they have moldy diapers. That happened recently here in Oregon.

Tobacco users don't fuck each other until they are left with open sores, creating STD epidemics. That's happening here too.

Tobacco users don't need a fix so bad that they gut construction sites of anything they can sell for scrap. That happens here with regularity.

Your analogy, while somewhat understandable, is completely false.

[Cronus Protagonist]

35. Ha ha ha - no, they die and abandon their children by default

And they drop their cigarettes into couches and bedding and burn the house down and the children with it, and sometimes their neighbors houses too.

They smoke in public, poisoning everyone around them, including their children and their neighbor's children. They commit larceny to get smokes when they're broke, and the gather and sell scrap, bottles, cans, etc to get a fix. I see these people every day scouring the trash cans on Broadway to get cash for a bottle of alcohol and a pack of smokes, asking people walking by for a cigarette to keep them from feeling the awful withdrawal symptoms. They beg on the streets for their drugs and complain when others don't like imnhaling their drug along with them.

And contrary to your assertions, they do fuck each other and transmit diseases, but just like the case with meth, it's not because of the drug, it's because of their sexual attractions.

I think you're just a wee bit overly emotional right now and could use a chill pill. Perhaps you need another smoke?

:evilgrin:

[Maat]

102. I'm sorry, but there is no comparison.

Not even close.

I handled thousands of cases as a social worker, and didn't see any children tortured, burned, abandoned, raped or killed by their parent's smoking tobacco; however, I did see hundreds and hundreds so harmed by methamphetamine use.

Never saw one instance in which a kid was killed due to a fire caused by their parent's cigarette or a kid being abandoned because of their parent's tobacco-smoking habit. And the parents that died generally were in their 50's and 60's with grown children.

[Cronus Protagonist]

37. See what I mean?

I post and get flamed by eyesore and you get away with it. I need some of what you have :)

[file83]

110. Your points are perfectly valid, unfortunately...

...some people's emotions override their ability to process those valid points. Which, really just proves your point - that there is always some drug out there causing hysteria. The latest one just happens to be meth - next decade it'll be some other hybrid concoction of highly addictive, life destroying chemicals.

I got your back! :grouphug:

[tjwash]

12. I know. It's absolutely amazing how many people will just beg...

...the government to take freedoms away from us. There are a lot of people that have a magic "boogyman" that will make them beg big-brother to please pass more oppressive laws to protect us. :wtf:

I just don't get it sometimes.

[Lolivia]

19. So instead of "a recent surge in violence,"

we have a "recent epidemic of the most horrible drug ever."

I've said it before on another thread: I don't deny the harm that drugs do, I just don't think the legal system is the channel to deal with it. I also think the more harmful the drug is, the weaker the argument that it needs to be illegal in order to curb use. I mean, if a person can look at the pictures of the facial sores and rotten teeth and hear the horror stories of self-inflicted damage and insanity and addiction rates, and STILL say, "sign me up," the threat of going to jail is not going to dissuade them.

[Oeditpus Rex]

71. I was about to make this point

but you did an excellent job of it. :thumbsup:

It seems the media always has a Drug of the Decade to hype as the most terrible scourge ever upon our city/county/state/country. In the '60s it was weed, heroin in the '70s, coke in the '80s, and from the mid-'90 through now it's been Ecstasy and meth.

Why? It's an easy story. Cite some government "facts" and figures, interview a cop, a rehab counselor, a recovering addict (or a using addict if you can find one) — anyone who'll reiterate the "terrible scourge" bit. It makes a good "shock" headline.

Thing is, all drugs are bad — or not. It depends entirely on how they're used.

We really haven't come so far from films like "Reefer Madness."

[eeyore]

77. You're way off base OR

Meth is completely different, and that's why I've been asking people to take note. It's an entirely different drug than anything we've ever dealt with.

Just do me a favor and watch the documentary at this link.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/meth/

Now tell me that it's business as usual.

This is no refer madness. I can tell you first hand that this is the real deal, and that we have to get rid of all of our pre-conceived notions about the War on Drugs in order to help the people who need it.

Just have an open mind. That's all I'm asking.

[Oeditpus Rex]

79. And I can tell *you* first-hand

that alcohol will fuck up a life just as badly as any other drug. (And I do mean "first-hand," as it fucked up my own.) But it's never the media's flavor of the month because it doesn't "grab" like meth et al.

My point was twofold: One, many people — particularly those without personal knowledge — accept that Drugs Are Awful because it's a mass-media drumbeat. That point had nothing to do with whether one drug is worse than another, because that's subjective; the drug that adversely affects your life the most is the one you'll consider the worst — which was my second point.

My mind is quite open, thank you.

[eeyore]

80. I'm glad you made it out...

I've been around people abusing most of the "popular" drugs, and have had someone close to me ruin their lives on every one of them.

As a bartender I've run through the moral implications of feeding alcoholics their death-in-a-glass every day. Alcohol is a wicked drug if used by people who are prone to abusing it, and it's especially rough since it's the most socially acceptable and legal drug.

I'm not trying to get into some sort of a life experience one-upsmanship match with you.

If you won't watch the documentary, you're just going to have to take my word for it that we're dealing with something different here.

I'm not some sort of teetotaler who wants us to live in a nanny state. I'm a person with a very broad range of experience in this matter, and I deal with meth on some level every day here in Oregon. I'm just trying to let people know what's going on in my world.

[Djinn]

90. guess what

there is no meth madness either, it is eminently possible to use it in small doses and occasionally.

it is not entirely different to anything we've dealt with before at all

people who have no ability to control their intake of ANY drug are societally "difficult" shall we say, ever had the misfortune to be around violent drunks

[William Bloode]

119. Great post.

Also very truthful as well. I know plenty about meth, i know plenty about the people who do it, hell i can make the shit. Meth is no better nor no worse than any other drug. It's just a drug that does have some positive aspects, but like any drug or anything else for that matter to much is bad for you.

It's not addicting on your first snort, or poof. It is not even close to as expensive as crack considering a hit of meth lasts many times longer than crack. It does not kill like opiates the way oxy's and heroin, or k4's do.

I to have been around long enough to see drug hysteria and propaganda. The "meth scourge" is nothing new, nor as terrifying, or all encompassing as some would have you believe. It seems we have a need in this society to have some big drug scare all the time. Whethers it's weed, lsd, coke, ex, opiates, speed or others flavor of the week.

Remeber the late 80's early 90's? Back then it was crack. By the mid to later 90's it was extasy, then around the turn of the century it was the hillbilly heroin mania. It's constantly changing, but always there. Use of these big drug scares facilitates the abuse of our civil liberties, and allow politicians to puff up and look good on a scary issue. Nothing more nothing less.

[Frank Cannon]

136. It IS the worst drug ever

Tell me about the last time you heard that a DIY pot grower poisoned his entire neighborhood with his product.

[tjwash]

8. OK. Stopping pseudophedrine production is just not gonna work...

...and it has already been proved that it not only does not work, but it has disastrous results as well.

OK, wave a magic wand, and all of a sudden every OTC cold medicine disappears. That still only stops maybe 5-10 percent of the meth that gets made here. The bulk of the meth that is made, is using L-Ephedrine P, or P2P as the active ingredient. In the mid eighties, under that disastrous "war on drugs" started by the Reagan's, they made it a requirement to produce a pharmaceutical license to buy L-ephed, or ether from chemical supply stores. Good idea on the surface right?

Well guess what. Almost overnight a vast multi-billion dollar illegal enterprise opened up, to where the crucial ingredients were shipped in from Mexico, to either San Ysidro, or Yuma, and trucked out to the various kitchens. Hell, to this day we are still finding vast networks of tunnels that go under the border from Tijuana into San Ysidro. Not only that, the people smuggling the drugs from Mexico are part of the Mexican Mafia, who are extremely ruthless (picture the colombian coke smugglers, only worse).

And this was in the eighties. They took one situation and made it a hundred times worse, because it opened up a market and an opportunity that was immediately exploited. Hell, go back to the twenties, and prohibition, where they took one problem and made it a hundred times worse.

Sorry, but it appears that we have not learned a damn thing from our mistakes. The key, is figuring out a way to keep the U.S. from being such a vast drug market in the first place.

[Swamp Rat]

10. Thank you

Many of the responses in the other thread were disingenuous at best.

Don't be surprised if some hateful comments appear here like, "let them all die," by regressive, selfish, attention-seekers.

Pseudoephedrine production should be immediately stopped. There are other, more healthy ways of dealing with colds and congestion.

[skids]

15. I wouldn't go that far.

Pseudo-ephedrine is a very useful chemical for more than just colds. However, it's also something that folks can easily stand to the counter for.

[Swamp Rat]

17. I edited the post above

I didn't mean the thread itself was disingenuous, but many of the responses were... were NOT progressive.

Why not stop the manufacture of pseudoephedrine? What great good does it really do? Are there not better substitutes for it? Will people die if the drug manufacture is temoporarily halted?

What are the other uses of pseudoephedrine that make it's production so important? ... I genuinely do not know.

[skids]

23. It's our lowest-impact stimulant.

With the possible exception of vitamine C, and not excepting caffeine, it's the mildest and most targetted stimulant we have on the market. Not being a doctor, I can't say anything with authority as to whether it saves lives (a counter-case would be that it's an enabler for those people who seem to have no qualms about walking around when they are contagious.) While I'm sure that some drug companies would leap at the opportunity to create a monopoly with new compounds in a market where pseudoephedrine was recently banned, I haven't personally seen any alternatives that can claim to be as effective.

[Swamp Rat]

28. Oh, I thought it was a decongestant

I didn't know it was a stimulant. Makes sense though, because pseudoephedrine makes me feel awful, and so do other stimulants, which is why I don't drink coffee unless decaffeinated.

To me, both pseudoephedrine and meth are poisonous.

[Bridget Burke]

41. Pseudoephedrine is the best decongestant for many of us.

For my yearly cold & the occasional allergy, generic Sudafed does the job. Standard dosage is 2 pills--often 1 is enough. (Yes, I've had allergy shots. Houston is allergy-central. But I still get the occasional runny nose.)

The stimulant in the doses of pseudoephedrine I use is NOT noticeable to me. Gosh--I have one non-decaf coffee a day. And maybe a cup of tea or two. What an addict! The other remedies--OTC or not--are usually Downers. Or they treat symptoms I don't have. Or they have scary possible side effects.

Should coffee with caffeine be banned just because YOU don't like it?

Please note: I have NO problem signing a logbook at checkout.

[Swamp Rat]

49. "Should coffee with caffeine be banned just because YOU don't like it?"

Please note: I said nothing about banning coffee.

[Bridget Burke]

63. Well, pseudoephedrine is NOT a poison for most of us.

When it's taken a pill or two at a time.

As I've said--I have NO problem with signing the log if it will make meth labs harder to set up.

[Patiod]

123. Pseudoephedrine is all that works on a bad sinus infection

When I get a bad sinus infection, my eyes stream (it looks like I'm sobbing), my face swells up, and I have to sleep sitting up. We're not talking "colds and congestion" - we're talking a vicious full-blown sinus infection.

Antibiotics take a long time to kick in, but Sudafeds go right to work.

It's a good thing I only get these infections every year or two, because Sudafed makes me mean. But it's either that (for a few days) or walk around looking like a crazy, crying woman.

Had to buy some in Illinois (got hit in the middle of a work trip), and had to go to the pharmacy counter and sign for it. No problem - I'll do whatever is required. Plus I rarely need more than 2 boxes per go-round, and hoard whatever I have left over at the end of the infection so I have some for next time.

[eeyore]

13. Thank you very much for this post...

I am the OP from the linked flamefest. I've known that there must be DUers out there who are on the same page that I am, and have been wading through the muck with growing impatience. Though I am not a decriminalization or legalization activist, I do hold roughly the same beliefs that you do. I do understand the wreckage that the war on drugs has caused, but I think we have a very unique case with meth, and I've been trying to do my part by informing DUers of the situation from Oregon where we have a huge problem.

So, thank you, and glad to meet you. I hope that we can continue this discussion in a rational fashion. Perhaps if we continue to feed people the information that we find, we'll be able to put a few holes in the walls that people understandably have put up as a reaction to the war on drugs.

[mom cat]

25. Thanks for your post. It led me to a great video on meth and the battle in

Oregon. Here is the link. If you think Meth is a joke, Watch this.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/meth/

[eeyore]

78. Glad to help.

I posted it a few weeks back after I watched it, letting people know that I thought it was informative. I was immediately swamped by attackers saying that I was basically supporting the war on drugs.

Sigh...

[dcfirefighter]

14. Trading good beer for bad gin

my personal favorite argument for legalization.

While many, if not most people are at least dissappointed by the 'War on Drugs', very nearly none of them listen to people who advocate the immediate legalization of all drugs.

Start with Marijuana.

If you mention legalizing Meth, Crack, Heroin, etc. you are immediately tuned out by 99.8% of teh population.

[MadHound]

21. Still an opinion friend, and a bit unknowledgeable one at that.

So yay, we've banned Sudafed and all those other pseudoephedrine containing OTC drugs. Do you honestly think that's going to make a differenence? That answer isn't no, it's hell no. Why, because making meth is the most malleable drug production process bar none. Take one component off the shelves, and another one takes it's place.

I live in Missouri, the meth capital of the country. Last year we enacted a law that is quite similar to the current Patriot Act provisions, requiring people to show ID and register before being allowed to purchase their allotted amount of cold pills. And the production of meth in this state went down almost immediately. Until now, about six months after the law took effect. Now, meth production is starting to shoot again in the state. And I think I know why.

Think about it, six months. What happens in six months? Well, it is about the period of time required to raise a good crop of ma huang, mormon tea, or any of the other plants belonging to the genus Ephedra. Whoop, there it is, another source for that key ingredient. What's next, outlawing these plants? Yeah, we've seen how effective outlawing weeds has gone in these United States:eyes: If this isn't happening now, as we speak, I'm willing to wager large sums of money that it will be happening within the upcoming year. Just because their on meth doesn't mean their stupid, and with that kind of motivation and energy, they'll stumble upon this soon enough.

Sorry, but if you want to decrease the usage of meth and other drugs, stop the enviromental disaster that meth labs cause, put an immediate halt to the secondary crime wave that accompanies meth and other illegal drugs, and regain everybody's civil liberties, then the only logical thing to do is legalize, tax and control ALL drugs, including meth, just like you would alcohol.

It has been shown that after an initial euphoric rise in usage, the per capita use of any drug, from alcohol to heroin, goes down. Add in the tax revenues you would collect from the sale of these drugs, using the money for education and rehab programs, and you would decrease usage even more. In addition, you would put virtually a complete stop to the secondary crime wave that accompanies illegal drugs, because the prices would be affordable and an addict wouldn't have to steal to support his habit. Also, addicts and users would have fewer health problems for a two-fold reason, A; Because they're getting clean, quality controlled product, not back alley, garage chemistry shit, and B; Users would be more apt to get health care early for their problem since they would know they couldn't get popped for illegal drugs. And the enviroment would be much cleaner, since all these rural and garage meth labs would disappear overnight, with production being done in controlled, certified production labs, where the waste would be disposed of properly.

Mankind has always had an innate need to alter their state of conciousness, whether it be with alcohol, dope, meth, whatever. This goes back to the mists of prehistory. Trying to stop that urge, to criminalize it and control it is simply an exercise in futility, pissing into the wind. We've tried the War on Drugs for years and decades now, and guess what, we're losing, have been since day one. All that the WOD has done is enrich a relatively small group of people, police, lawyers, politicians and criminals, while depriving the rest of us of our civil liberties and our safety. Why continue to pursue this policy when it is such an obvious failure? That's insanity.

Rather, let us bring sense and sanity back in our society by legalizing and controlling drugs in the same way that we do alcohol. We will see the per capita usage rate go down, the secondary crime wave disappear, the enviroment cleaned up, and our civil liberties restored. Anything else is pure insanity.

[eeyore]

22. Sounds like a great experiment to try with meth...

Let's try it in your neighborhood first. In fact, let's put a clinic right next door to your house. Hope that works out for you.

[MadHound]

27. Bring it!

I would rather have a sane, sensible clinic dealing in a cheap, quality product next door to me than my friendly neighborhood tweaker up the road who is ripping people off right and left, and building a toxic waste site that is threatening the entire neighborhood.

A clinic would be just fine. People would come in, pick up their product and leave, just like any other business.

As it is, there's a decent probablity that I'm either going to have something of mine ripped off, or be forced to deal with the EPA hassles of a toxic waste site, or both.

Thanks, I'll take the clinic anyday.

[TX-RAT]

29. People would come in, pick up their product and leave

At what cost?
Who would pay for it?

[Swede]

30. They'd break into the house next door for cash to get a fix.

Because meth addicts are not long term planners.

[MadHound]

32. Yeah, right, that's it

That's the same song and dance they handed out during Prohibition too:eyes:

Actually, your statement shows just exactly how few(at least knowingly) tweakers you've known. The vast majority of meth users actually do hold down a job, or two, or three, in order to feed their habit and provide the basics of food and shelter.

You make meth legal, the price goes down, and gee, there wouldn't be any crime wave that we have now.

[PsN2Wind]

39. The "vast majority"

I find quite doubtful. As for not knowing tweakers, my oldest son is now doing two years in the California system after having been released just over one year ago from the Oregon Corrections Department where he had spent four years. The reason for his incarcerations, meth addiction!
He got a good job in Eugene, Oregon after his release from South Fork work camp. It lasted less than six months then it was back to tweaking and stealing.

[ChiciB1]

46. My Heart Goes Out To You...

I just posted about MY SON! You apparently have had a longer history than I, but it still hurts like hell!

Actually there are times I wish he WAS in jail, at least I would know where he's at. The waiting is the hardest part. I won't tell you some of my other thoughts, but I've had some real crazy nightmares!

[PsN2Wind]

73. My wife and I know

what you mean about wishing he were in jail. After losing contact the last time, we were relieved to find he was in jail and not dead.
We hope the best for you and your son. We always hope for the best and try and prepare for the worst.

[PsN2Wind]

74. Meth does take it's prisoners.

I am always relieved to find out that my son is back in jail, that way I know he's not out and about, and will at least get a chance, with the time he gets, to rethink his situation. He can't seem to stay straight for any period of time when he gets out. The last time he went to prison he got 4 years. He did a year in prison, and 3 years in a prison work camp. He had such a wonderful attitude and his letters were full of hope and promise. He had his half way house all lined up before he was released and we met him there the following day after his release. We live in Arizona and he was in the half way house in Eugene, Oregon. We towed up a little'83 GMC Jimmy for him to get around in, took him and bought new clothes and gave him a little spending money, some fishing equipment and a guitar. This was in January. He kept in touch about every week. He got a really good job painting large industrial pieces of equipment and had the 401K available, health insurance, and a good paycheck. It wasn't but a couple of months that he stopped calling, and his phone was disconnected. (This was in June). That was the end of any contact until just before Christmas. He was in California at his girlfriends parents house. They were on their way down to see us (eventually) after he stopped by to see some of his "friends" in Oakland and LA. You see, he considers himself a biker and has been hanging around bikers for about 12 years. He is not a kid. He is 41 years old, and has been into drugs since about the age of 28. He makes meth, sells meth, uses meth and "collects" from people who don't pay for meth. He is someone that I don't even know anymore. When he is straight he is a really nice guy and when he is on meth, he is the devil himself. I worry for his future, and don't really hold out any hope for him any more. From what I am reading, most people go back to it and the rehab only lasts so long. He is in prison for 1 year, his girlfriend in jail for 3 months......she is pregnant with his child, and is also a meth addict. What in the world will happen to this poor little child? When she gets out of jail,she will stay with her parents until he gets out of prison, then they plan on making a life together as a family.......Scares the hell out of me. My son has burglarized homes across the state of Oregon and California, and has done God knows what else. I am ashamed of him and feel so bad that my son has caused such grief and upset in the lives of people that he has robbed. From what I am hearing this story goes on over and over again from parents across the nation. I wish I had the answer. The only thing I know, is that for me it helps to talk about it. My sympathy goes out to all of us who are touched by this. Maybe by the time this epidemic reaches Washington DC something will be done about it, and a decent program for abusers will become a reality. Better yet, how about a drug that makes you not want to take drugs?

[ChiciB1]

86. I'm so Glad To Hear From You...

As of yet, my son has not spent time in prison, but has been arrested quite a few times. Mostly for driving without a license and then several times he's had Meth on him. He is now classified as an Habitual Offender. And like you son, when he's straight I hear such good things about him.

He had his own business, gone now, and I've received letters from his customers telling me how much they loved him. Your story is a story that I'M hearing more and more each day and I WONDER just what it's going to take. My son isn't that young either, 35 and I must tell you that I'm sure I don't know WHAT he's been into. For all I know, he may be dealing himself. I do know that if they catch him he will be sent to jail. He was on probation but botched that and is now an Absconder/Fugitive. I had to find out all of this stuff off the Internet, which I never knew posted this stuff. He has a wife and she had left him and got involved with the stuff. He just couldn't deal with that loss and jumped right in with all four feet. They're still not back together even though they both have been arrested a lot. My husband says it's who he runs around with, but I've come to believe that that no matter WHERE they go, they're going to find it. My daughter wanted us to send him to CA as part of the INTERVENTION program that's on TV, Oh about $40,000 for 3 months, but given the fact that I've seen NO guarantees by all whom I talk to, that doesn't seem to be the answer. He actually got mad at us for NOT helping him go there.

We had already contributed about $55,000.00 to save his business and when he's straight he understands, but when he's not, it's his family who is never there for him. It's just too crazy and I have no answers. They say let them hit bottom and then they'll realize... THIS IS NOT TRUE! We are not wealthy, simply middle class but dipped into our retirement savings in an effort to help. Then you get burned and all those emotions come flooding back and you want to kick yourself and then the anger and then the hurt and then the worry and it never never stops! And as you pour your heart out, I KNOW exactly what you're feeling. It's nothing more than a roller coaster or sitting here waiting for the shoe to drop.

Now that we don't know where he is, each time the phone rings I jump, when I hear sirens my nerves jangle and I just live in FEAR most of the time. Jail by no means is the answer, but as you said, at least you know WHERE he is! I sometimes wonder who will be the one to go first, him or me!

And the very worst thing about it is that you remember that "other" kid you knew and you love them with all your heart, but this drug is something else! I knew he smoked pot, but that never was any big problem, this stuff... well you know!!

Thanks for sharing, as I said I can't go to meetings anymore because all I do is cry and go into depression. Here at DU I get into the other major problems in America, but it's not as personal. I just know if they find him, he'll run, they might shoot and what can you do?? As I sit here typing tears are flowing, but then you MUST know about all that. I don't hide what has gone on, it would be too much to keep inside. Each story I hear just makes me hurt for everyone that has this in their lives and I can only hope by talking about it is helpful to others too.

But the biggest problem is that each day thousands more join our ranks, and I NEVER knew how HUGE this problem was until we got hit with it! And that's all it takes, people come out of the woodwork and tell you THEIR stories, and you NEVER suspected it!

I have so many people telling me they're praying for us, but with all that prayer something should be happening. I'm not so sure THAT'S going to do it!

[TX-RAT]

40. Have to disagree

Most of the burglaries in our county are by meth heads. Shoplifting is out of control, beer runs are an everyday occurrence ( they steal it and either sale it or trade it) All the thefts of Anhydrous ammonia in out county have been by meth heads. Of the 22 house fires we had to respond to last year, 9 of them were meth labs. Just because you lower the price doesn't mean their going to stop committing crimes to pay for it. These people are unemployable due to the fact that most employers or employers insurance company, require drug testing.

[MadHound]

44. Just because they're stealing anhydrous doesn't mean they're

Unemployed. Anhydrous is strictly controlled, and can't be bought over the counter, you have to have crops and a license, with records to back you up, in order to get it.

And yes, meth users are employed and employable. In fact that's one of the major factors that leads people to trying meth, they're poor and working two or three jobs, trying to stay awake. They take a little bump, and away they go. Through my volunteer work I've met many, many meth users, and the unemployment rate is only slightly higher than "normal" people. Granted, they're mostly McJobs, but it brings in the money. Make meth legal, and hence cheap, and gee, you wouldn't have the crime wave that accompanies meth.

Oh, and if you make meth legal, you wouldn't have the house fires either. Why go through the cost and hassle of setting up a lab when you can go down to the corner drug store and pick it up? How many illegal stills are in operation these days? Not very many, and the amount of liquor they make is in the hundreths of a percentage point.

[TX-RAT]

52. Through my volunteer work I've met many, many meth users,

Through my job with the county, i've met many, many meth heads. Sorry but they wasn't what you described. Not sure just how many you've had to deal with, but i've dealt with more than my share. The ones i dealt with were hard core addicts, they didn't have time for a job, it interfered with their drug use. If you sold it for 5 dollars a gram, they'd still end up stealing for the money rather than work for it.


Looks as though you and i will have to disagree.

[ChiciB1]

88. I Agree With You...

Having seen my son while on Meth, I doubt seriously he would have been doing very much PRODUCTIVE work! Maybe it depends on how MUCH you're doing, I don't know. Perhaps with just a little you can work, but the 3 times I saw my son he was almost FLYING!

[Maat]

103. No way.

The vast majority of tweakers are busy stealing and whoring themselves out for their next fix at any given time.

Please - employed? Never met one that was employed for long, and I've had conversations with THOUSANDS of them.

[tjwash]

47. At what cost,? Who would pay for it?

Where have you been for the last twenty years? They are spending BILLIONS on a disastrous "war on drugs" that Ronnie Reagan started that has done nothing but bloat up the prison system, and give politicians an excuse to pass more repressive laws.

[TX-RAT]

66. OK, but just one question

How does the legalization of meth stop this?

http://www.drugfree.org/Portal/DrugIssue/MethResources/faces/index.html#

[eeyore]

33. Where do you propose the tweakers go on their 12 hour high?

Can they just hang out in front of your house? Perhaps you could put them to work in your yard with all of that excess energy they have. Maybe you could let them fuck each other raw in your bushes. Do you mind watching their kids while they're out?

Come on, man...can't you at least try to think of some half-way practical solutions to a very serious problem? Meth legalization is not going to happen any time soon, so how about you join the rest of us trying to think of what can actually be done right now to deal with the problem?

If you're not willing to do that, then please do us a favor and let those of us interested in dealing with this problem have a reasonable conversation about it.

[MadHound]

42. LOL really, LOL

I have given you the solution that will indeed drop meth usage, wipe out the crime wave that accompanies meth, prevent enviromental disasters, and restore all of our civil liberties, and you're saying that I'm unreasonable:rofl:

Are you a lawyer, politician, policeman, criminal or other member of that small group of people who are profiting from the WOD? Really now, why are you so against this solution? It does every single thing you request, usage rates go down, health problems go down, envirmoental problems go down, crime goes down, and our civil liberities can be restored. This is a proven fact, go look at the end of Prohibition, or look at England's legalization of heroin in the twenties if you don't believe me. This solution is the only one that works! The WOD certainly hasn't worked, here we are, decades into it, and things are worse than ever. What's your solution then? Ban even more? Take away more of our civil liberties? What?

There is a definition of insanity that goes something like this: Doing the same thing over and over again, yet expecting a different result every time. That sums up the WOD perfectly, and we've been engaged in this insanity for years and decades now. Don't you think it is high time that we decided to act reasonably, sensibly and sanely? If so, then the only logical solution is to legalize it, all of it.

[eeyore]

51. So you actually think that meth legalization can happen?

If it can happen, please tell me how and when. Otherwise we have nothing to talk about. I don't see it as anything that will happen in my lifetime.

Instead I'm focusing on things that I believe will make my community a better place to live. Are you actually doing anything about the situation?

I've got a brother who lost an $80,000 a year job because it became too difficult for him to stay straight long enough to go to work. It became easier for him to steal money from my parents. Eventually he became so fucked up that he paralyzed a 19 year old woman in a head on collision and got sentenced to 12 years in prison.

I also had a friend whose head was so full of voices from meth that he jumped to his death the day before he was scheduled to go into rehab.

Just yesterday my freinds woke up at 5am to a massive police raid on their urban residential Portland street.

This is a very real issue to me, and I'm not interested in dickering around with classroom semantics. Unless you're interested in talking about what you are actually doing to work towards a solution to the problem, I'm pretty well done with you.

[MadHound]

54. Well if we stopped buying into the failed concept of the WOD

And actually looked at this rationally, and sanely, yes, we could legalize all drugs, including meth. But we've got to start thinking rationally about the problem rather than believing in the bullshit that is being continously fed to us by those in power and position. Make it an election issue so to speak. Hammer it early and often, and yes, it could happen within your lifetime.

As for what I do, well I would like to think that my volunteer work is helping. Crisis counseling center and what have you. Gotten some folks into rehab, kept some folks from killing themselves, etc. etc. Oh, and yeah, I helped in the local effort to decriminalize pot, and legalize medical marijuana, both of which succeeded in '04 election. Yeah, I'd like to think I'm doing my share.

Look, I know that this has hit home with you, I'm truly sorry for what you're going through and I'm not trying to make light of it, OK. I live in a state where the problems with meth are even worse than in Oregon. I've had friends get hooked on the shit, I've seen people slowly kill themselves with it, and I'm constantly having to deal with the secondary side effects of the meth scourge, crime and toxic waste.

But we've tried this whole War on Drugs thing for so damn long and the problem hasn't gotten better, it's gotten worse. It seems to me that the only viable solution, the only one that has been shown time and again to decrease usage, wipe out crime, and put an end to the secondary scourges that accompany prohibition is to legalize, tax and control all drugs in the same manner that we deal with alcohol. As I said earlier, humans seem to have an innate need to alter their conciousness in one form or another. Denying mankind that release isn't going to make things better, or make that need go away. Therefore we should channel and control that need in a sane and sensible way that will cause the least harm and provide the most benefit to our society as a whole. Anything else is just flat out foolish and couterproductive.

[eeyore]

64. I've told you repeatedly in multiple threads that I'm against the WOD

No matter what I say, you believe that I'm for criminalization, no matter how many times I state the contrary. I have told you that I myself smoke pot and believe it should be legal. I've told you that I believe that addiction is an illness, not a crime, and it should be treated as such.

We will never agree on this, so I hope your work goes well. I don't begrudge your opinions, but I'm interested in the here and now, not something that is going to take an entire lifetime of work to sway public opinion.

Meth legalization will be a long uphill battle. May the road treat you well.

[DrGonzoLives]

57. You didn't answer his question

Where are they allowed to do the drug? Bars? The sidewalk? Do they have to stay confined to the clinic? I mean, I find it funny that the same kind of liberal who thinks we should legalize ALL DRUGS thinks we should make it nearly impossible and expensive as hell to smoke cigarettes.

But, whatever, I'm sure you'll just deflect again.

[MadHound]

67. Where do alcoholics do their drug?

Bars, sidewalks, public places, their own home.:shrug:

There is a heroin program in England. An addict takes the tube into London in the morning, goes to his clinic, gets his shot for the day and goes to work. Works, is a productive, tax paying citizen. Gets off work, goes to the clinic, gets his shot for the night, and takes the tube home.

Do I want people doing meth on my front lawn, no. Likewise I don't want alcoholics drinking or potheads smoking on my front lawn. But gee, there's a whole wide world out there for them to do their thing in.

And as far as cigarettes go, frankly I don't care where you smoke, so long as it's OK with the person who owns the business or residence. I don't know where you get the notion that I want to "make it nearly impossible and expensive as hell to smoke cigarettes", being as that I smoke myself. I think that you're getting me confused with another poster.

[BBradley]

111. He is.

You shoot him down. We say what we think, you say no. That's your MO in these threads. You're not interested in opinions involving decriminilization because you've dismissed them before you hear them.


Meth is not a problem. Addiction is. When you realize that, maybe you can join the rest of us trying to think of what can actually be done right now to deal with the problem.

[Harald Ragnarsson]

125. Is that what this is really all about?

I keep seeing this re-occuring theme in your posts:

"Maybe you could let them fuck each other raw in your bushes."

IS there some sort of Clenis Envy thing going on here? You pissed because meth addicts have more sex than you? Your significant other leave you for a meth dealer?

Sorry, that's harsh, but so is your statement and I have seen it repeated ad naseum.

I've done the drug many times in my many years on this earth, did not become addicted to it, nor have I done any of the horrible things your ascribe to anyone that has ever touched it. Enough already.

[William Bloode]

121. I support the posters idea,

and i have no problem with putting this kind of thing next to my home. If it's a legally run and observed, i see no problem with it. A few addicts don't make me piss my pants in fear. What am i gonna be afraid that they would mug me? Doubt it if it was legal and affordable. Do i have to worry about them harming my kids? Again highly doubtful, as even if they are addicts i have known enough addicts to know that being an addict does not make you a bad, or abusive person......as long as you have you fix. Would i worry about my kids picking up th habit? I don't think so. I could hard;y think of a better education tool to use to keep kids off drugs than to let them see what real addiction looks like.

Your attitude is part of the problem. Anytime there is an urge to help such folks, so many people pop right up and say "NOT IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD!" Same thing with soup kitchens, homeless shelters, and methadone clinics. It's always ok to help the addicted and less fortunate as long as it ain't where i lay my head. :eyes:

[Swamp Rat]

24. So is Ephedra the key ingrediant?

I really do not know much about how Meth is made. Maybe a thread should be started by someone who knows exactly how it is manufactured, so we (I) can have a more informed discussion. IF stopping the manufacture of pseudoephedrine stopped Meth production completely, then I am all for it, but if what you say is true, then a pseudoephedrine ban is not the solution.

Personally, I consider pseudoephedrine poison.

[MadHound]

31. Yes, it is

You make make meth from either ephedra or pseudoephedrine, and you can also make pseudoephedrine from the ephedra alkaloids. Here's a couple of wiki links to help explain:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephedra>
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoephedrine>

The vast, vast majority of drugs are derived from plants. Grow the plant, and some chemist will use it.

[skids]

34. Oh, I'm unknowledgeable am I?

Monday I was in the state house with a bunch of students lobbying senators on a decrim bill. During college I lived, ate, and breathed drug policy.

Likely the new batch is simply a new supply of pharmeceutical grade ephedrine or pseudoephedrine arriving from out of state or out of country. As far as your drug "fad" theory, it falls apart with meth. Go dig yourself up some stats and look for yourself. Six months is also about the amount of time needed to
locate a new supply and grease the appropriate wheels.

Oh and I love how I'm instantly equated with people who want a full ban on cold pills. Thanks for putting words into my mouth.

Did I not make myself clear? Did I not say that harm reduction was preferrable? (Oh wait -- just in case you're "unknowledgeable" as to the definition of the term it's removing the black market harm vector from drug use and normalizing addicts socially so they can re-integrate.)

Source chemical interdiction is, yes, a stopgap measure -- and it will not fix the problem in the long run. However it is a stopgap measure that has in this one case demonstrated that it can take a big chunk out of usage.

Unlike drugs that hail from plant-based precursors, nothing is going to happen here like what happened with cocaine turning to crack and opium turning to heroin. Meth is as potent as it's going to get already -- the worst that will happen if it were to be pushed entirely offshore (something I'm not hopeful of) is additional contamination of the supply from chemicals added to disguise it during smuggling. Frankly there are easier ways to hide that product given the value/gram.

[MadHound]

48. Meth IS a plant based chemical

Go find out about where ephedra comes from:eyes: It can, and probably will get worse. Actually, in many ways it has. The grandpappy of meth is the speed and amphetamines of the late sixties. When those pharmaceuticals were cracked down on, garage chemists started making their own. Thus we have the many incarnations of meth, each one worse and the ingredients become ever more coarse, and production quality declined.

And as being in Missouri, I'm sure the Mexico pipeline for a new source of ephidrine would have already been up and going by last Sept., after all, there was a lead time of a few months before the law took effect. No, I would say somebody is raising some crops. I could very well be wrong, but like I said, I'd be willing to bet lots of money that such an action takes place within a year.

You want to reduce meth, or any drug use for that matter. The only sure fire way that has worked has been shown to be legalization. Time and again. Perhaps we should try it:shrug:

[skids]

53. Ephedra is a plant based chemical, meth != ephedra

I have a bottle of ephedrine my desk.

Calling methamphetamine "plant based" as a consequence, however, is pretty numb. It's not a simple purification/distillate of pre-existing plant-based chemicals like cocaine. In fact, it was more popular to synthesise methamphetimine from phenylacetone and methylamine before this current craze of reducing the ephedras down took over.

FYI, which you seem to lack, methamphetamine was around when your so-called "grandpapie" speeds were as well. It's been available by prescription for the duration (Desoxyn among others.) Production quality has not universally declined, as you state, but in fact has been rather unsteady over the century.

Is the demand for meth a consequence of the prohibition of less dangerous drugs? Probably. Would meth do as much damage if we had harm reduction clinics to provide a clean, cheap supply along with counciling? Of course not. Is the U.S. going to legalize any drugs anytime soon? Probably not. We'd be lucky to get industrial hemp at this point. Is the correct solution to a public health crisis to sit their with your fingers you ears, or ass, whichever you prefer, and wish real hard that suddenly there will be a full reversal of U.S. drug policy? No. Fraid not.

[azurnoir]

107. ephedra generally is not

used in meth production, the lab made analog psuedoephidrine (sudafed) is because it far more pure. From what I've read (google meth) you could make meth out of ephedra or ephedrine which is partially refined but it's far more difficult and somewhat unprofitable, which is why sudafed is now becoming a controlled substance and ephedra is not. You can still get the plant at herbal shops, brewed into tea it's quite effective for someone suffering from bronchitis.

[skids]

131. FWIW...

You're probably right about ephedra extract. AFAIK, though, ephedrine was preferred over pseudoephedrine before it became harder to get, as the lab process was simpler and a tad bit less explosive.

[Harald Ragnarsson]

126. What a hoot?

Oh, you know about it all because you were at a government meeting where you talked drug policy?

Aren't these the same guys that put out ads saying pot is a date rape drug, or you become so retarded smoking pot you shoot your friend or stick your whole hand in your mouth?

Yeah, that's where I'd go for honesty and knowledge, for sure.

Besides that, groups that benefits from law enforcement and rehab of drugs kind of have a monetary incentive for the policy to remain as it is, don't they?

[skids]

132. Jeez, try using your ears for a change.

Or eyes in this case. As in read my posts before you flame. You'll note that:

A) I'm in favor of legalization/decriminalization of drugs.
B) I don't think prohibition works.
C) I don't buy the druggies-are-evil meme and never have.
D) I wrote one of the earliest, most prolific Internet documents exposing govt lies about marijuana.
E) All I'm saying is they found one particular drug where, unlike the others, they can in fact manage
to bring down use, not by raiding small labs; not by arresting users; not by arresting dealers (they
do all that too but it's a waste) but by monitoring international shipments of a few particular
chemicals and just asking people to jump through a hoop when they want to buy cold medicine.

Yet you give me a reply worthy of some ignorant prohibitionist soccer mom. Engage brain before putting mouth in gear, please.

[Warren Stupidity]

115. Reason rarely works around hysteria. nt.

[ChiciB1]

36. Today's Meth Got My Son & I Don't Know Where He Is Now!

He was no youngster when he started, but gradually became a person I didn't know. Now my heart is completely broken and I live in fear that I will get a knock on my door telling me he's gone.

Worst of all, I have no idea where he is and my anxiety level stays way up there. My husband and I tried everything we could to help him but to no avail. On top of that I keep hearing from many others "my story" over and over again. Even from police officers who have sons, daughters and other family members who have gone down the same path as my son.

None of us have any answers and we weep together. There is so little help out there and what help there is costs thousands and thousands of dollars WITHOUT any real guarantee.

Usually, I stay optimistic that problems can be solved, this time around I KNOW the outcome is going to be bad! All I can do is WAIT!

[eeyore]

45. I'm really sorry to hear about your son...

This is what happened to my brother, except he ended up in prison on a 12 year sentence for a head on collision that paralyzed a 19 year old woman. He's out now, working and living in a halfway house. He seems to be doing well, but I just keep waiting for it to happen again.

There is hope, ChiciB1, but I know how hard it is to keep positive thoughts.

My brother broke my poor parents' hearts, and hopefully he won't do it again.

:hug:

[ChiciB1]

50. Thank You... I Hope For The Best For Your Brother Too!

This stuff is horrendous! The "system" is totally broken and the jails and prisons are full. As you said, "waiting" is the key word here. Even with help, you wonder if the help will really be HELP! I've heard that it's one of the most addictive drugs from the get go. I've stopped going to NA and AAA meetings because they just make me cry. There are sooooooooo many lives being ruined.

There has to be a better way!

[Neil Lisst]

122. so if your brother had been drunk, would you be focused on alcohol?

Your personal story is telling. Your brother. Your parents. Your personal experience.

The demon is the meth. It could have been alcohol, or cough syrup, or any or many substances, but it was meth. The dead woman's family likely blames your brother. They don't likely blame "meth."

No matter whether the drug of the decade is heroin, cocaine, crack, ecstacy, or meth, there will always be those who have fallen off the edge of the world. Their lives will be full of neglect, abuse, and crime. The crime they engage in is already illegal. When they steal, it's a crime. When they abuse, it's a crime.

The reality of addiction is that the composite of addiction doesn't change much. The percentage of people who are addicted to some drug doesn't change much, just the drug to which they are addicted. When you make one drug disappear, use of other drugs increase correspondingly.

The War on Drugs is a war on people who do drugs. Meth is a terrible social problem, but criminalization makes criminals of many people who aren't stealing, who aren't dysfunctional. As with other substances that have come down the pike, meth is having its moment as "the most terrible!" In ten years it will be something else.

[Harald Ragnarsson]

128. He said his brother was in a Drunk Driving accident

In his first meth post I saw. I take drunk to specifically mean alcohol. I asked him then why he was going on an anti meth campaign if his bro got convicted of drunk driving and got no real response. Oh, wait. I guess I did. I got "you don't agree with me so you aren't a good person" or "you don't agree with me so you're just playing games" responses.

[Neil Lisst]

134. yeah, really

I don't get the point of threads of this genre:

Here's my opinion, and it's the only one that counts, and if you disagree with me you suck and/or "wait until it happens to you."

The "drug" problem in America, such that it is, has been here a long, long time, and the worst afflicted are always a mess, wherever they are in society. Making them criminals for "using" is a dumb idea, IMO. If they aren't doing anything ELSE that's illegal, why does arresting them for use make sense?

No, from the meth junkie to Jeb Bush's daughter to George Bush's twins, excess of drug of preference is a problem. I don't want to see any of them in prison for it. In my list of solutions, that one isn't one of them.

[Harald Ragnarsson]

127. In your very first post about meth, you said drunk driving

was behind your brothers accident, now you're leaving that part out.

Why is that?

So, was meth the cause of his accident or was it drunk driving(which I take to be alcohol) as you said in your first "Be Afraid of Meth!" post?

[EFerrari]

108. Hang in there, sister. We just keep doing our best.

:hug:

:grouphug:

[TX-RAT]

118. Very sorry to hear that.

The sad fact is it's got hold on allot of our children. To legalize this drug is a disaster waiting to happen. I truly hope your child returns, and that theres something left of him when he gets there.

[coalition_unwilling]

43. Give me librium or give me meth! (eom)

[mdmc]

55. would you suggest that meth is a product of the drug war?

:kick:

[skids]

65. Absolutely.

...well, the epidemic is. I think we'd have meth itself as a pharmaceutical with or without the War on (Some) Drugs. This type of scourge, however, is a classic characteristic of a prohibitionist society -- the tighter you squeeze, the more powerfully it squirts through your fingers.

However although I have worked, and continue to sometimes nowadays, to set the stage for the sea change that we truly need, even failed policies can be tweaked in some places to do more good or cause less harm. Feedstock interdiction is an area where less civil rights violations occur -- mostly corporations are affected, and with this particular chemical it has a track record of disrupting supply and reducing use.

One can of course argue that any loss of rights cannot ever be tolerated. However that level of absolutism is a bit ridiculous given that there is a list a mile long of pharmaceuticals we have to get from behind the counter -- and I don't see the die-hard libertarians getting quite so upset about, oh say just to be facetious, viagra. Moreover there are a good number of activities we have to sign a logbook to take part in, for instance, renting a hotel room, embarking on a ship, or flying on an airplane. Where's the outrage?

[Bridget Burke]

69. SOMEDAY we'll have better ways to deal with all drugs.

I don't just want to buy legal pot--I'd like to be able to grow it. Most other drugs should be legalized. Even heroin could be doled out in clinics. Junkies can do OK if they have a safe source of the drug--not that it's a lifestyle I'd like.

Meth users need serious medical intervention, not prison. But I wouldn't want a methlab on every block--even a legal one.

In the meantime, I'll sign that registry every 4 months or so. My "liberties" are under greater threat from other directions.

[mdmc]

85. thanks for this thread

what is the name of the book you co-authored?

[skids]

89. Not a book, really...

...it can be found round and about. It's a FAQ I authored in the early days of the Internet (USENET actually)

One copy is here:

http://www.usenet-replayer.com/faq/alt.hemp.html

What I co-founded was this:

http://umasscrc.org

[mdmc]

91. thanks and peace

:kick:

[meganmonkey]

72. Yeah, but everyone ignores constructive posts

They're too boring, I guess. I suppose it is more fun to attack and argue than it is to discuss and learn and have a healthy debate. I don't get it.

:shrug:

But here's my 2 cents again

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=602466&mesg_id=603951

[Horse with no Name]

75. Not to mention what it does to the homes it is cooked in

A friend that lives in Oregon was sharing with me that they knew someone who was renting a home and they were all sick for a very long time.
Long story short, home was found to be a place where they cooked the shit.
The cleanup costs were enormous...but apparently the kicker was the landlord knew what it had been used for and still let a woman and her kids move in.
Apparently they were able to sue for medical bills, but how many houses out there are in the same shape and how many people are getting sick in their homes and unaware as to the reason why?:scared:

[Harald Ragnarsson]

129. Sure it was left over meth fumes?

How silly. I'd have to see some medical studies to back that up.

I'd say chances are they were smokers and there was some second hand tobacco smoke stil lingering in the place, and we all know how deadly that stuff is! :sarcasm:

[Horse with no Name]

138. It's the chemicals that they use to make meth

Not the actual fumes.
Before inserting sarcasm, a simple google would suffice.

http://www.dhfs.state.wi.us/eh/ChemFS/fs/MethClnUp.htm

>>>snip
Chemical residues and lab wastes that are left behind at a former meth lab can also result in health problems for people who use the property. Unsuspecting people can touch residues of meth and have symptoms similar to those experienced by meth users. For this reason, local health departments should thoroughly assess the property for hazards prior to allowing it to be re-inhabited, especially by children.

Sometimes scrubbing and painting is all that is necessary to restore a former meth lab to a safe living environment. Sometimes, contamination is so broad and extensive that the inside of the building needs complete renovation. Across the U.S., the response to cleaning up former meth lab properties ranges from minor cleaning to complete demolition of buildings. Some meth labs require soil and/or groundwater cleanup as well, depending on the extent of how and where chemical wastes were managed.


And to address your other point of sarcasm, YES, we all know how deadly second hand smoke can be. Your point? Or is sarcasm and naysaying your only point?

[ismnotwasm]

82. I don't agree entirely.

Meth isn't "different" to a heroin addict. You know, the ones huge gaps in their muscle mass in arms and legs from injecting impure product. 'Cause their veins are shot.The "streetwise" ones, who lance their own abscesses, and turn up in ER's across the nation with necrotizing fascititis- you know that as "flesh eating disease" Or some other anti-biotic resistant infection. They help spread these diseases. The mothers who sell their eight year old daughters to tricks to get enough money to use. If you know the drug world you know what I'm talking about.
We could lay the blame on that behavior to the insane drug policies we have. (And they are insane) But not entirely. Drugs do what they do. They cause chemical reactions. That may produce any number of desires and decisions in the user.
Bathtub crank has been around a long time. The more sophisticated "cooking" that's done now evidently produces a superior, easier to produce product. I wouldn't know, being on the other side of that world for many years now. I grew up when PCP was the demon drug, and crank (Methamphetamine was considered a much superior form of crank) was considered a poor man' cocaine. (Back in the day when they said cocaine wasn't addictive)
So looking at behavior, and by that I mean the way the drugs affect others, not the users do you really think it's different from other highly addictive drugs?
Cocaine and meth both can form a type of schizophrenia. All users of hard core drugs might commit violent crimes--The heroin addict might be happy when he's well and all is good but let him get sick....

People are shooting each other over marijuana crops.

One thing that is going on is an epidemic of HCV. And you can live with it for a long time before your liver says fuck you. And when your liver says fuck you, it means it. And your kidneys might go right along with it.

While I enjoy my freedom from the need to use any mild altering substances-- I do remember-- and the only way I can see to free the user is to let them be free. They are already harming others, so saying "lock 'em up when they harm others" is far too late.
Let the laws soften, or let them go. Provide places. Offer treatment. Who pays? Don't know. But would it be any less expensive than it is now?
I do understand, and emphasize with what you're saying though. I do.

It's all a very bad scene, and rich men and women in expensive clothes with all the toys one could dream of are getting theirs off the back of the suffering of those eight year old prostitutes. Or the bizarre social hierarchies on the streets. Or those young men who die running drugs across the border. Or that overdose whose friends leave him to stiffen and die rather than call for help. Or that insane meth addict, locked up in the state mental intuition, with deep acne holes in her face because she happenned to be a"picker" and spent 12 hours picking at non existent zits. (True stories about people I know)
I have a saying. Meth makes you ugly, Heroin makes you old. Not funny, but there is a truth in it.

[kineneb]

84. once more: on dual diagnosis

Drug abuse/addiction can be, and often is, part and parcel of an underlying mental illness. Also, drugs are abused as a relief from a present that is often unpleasant or downright ugly. Until the underlying causes of drug abuse are addressed, we will continue to have problems. It is not just the drugs, but what causes people to seek them out and then abuse them.

I could have become an addict as a refuge from clinical depression, but I was (rightly) afraid the drugs would make my condition worse. There are others who wish to anesthetise themselves from their internal pain by whatever means are available.

[ChiciB1]

87. Ding! Ding! Ding!

My son told us he took the drug to get some "reality" into his life! I'm sure a lot of it made him "feel" better, I don't know. I was a Hippie and had to learn what "tweaking" was!!

From all the research I've done, I hear the withdrawal isn't that bad, it's just that you want to keep taking it because it makes you feel like you can do anything in the world! Which you can't! Because if you've ever been around someone who's doing it, well it's NOT a pretty picture!

I think I've looked CRAZY in the eye!

I know this isn't the forum to be unloading, but it would be such a blessing to have "real" group sessions that you knew would produce some results! I've worn myself out trying to find the correct answers, and there is very very little help anywhere! I mean when you start hearing police officers who arrest your son tell you about THEIR family members, then you know we have problems!

[sendero]

94. I challenge.,.

.... your assertion of the effectiveness of these controls (which I am FOR BTW).

I don't see a dent in the meth problem, and I hear that it is now being produced in Mexico, so that strategy isn't going to work for long, if it is working at all.

And lastly, exactly how many people stay away from meth because it is illegal? How many people stay away from pot because it is illegal?

I claim not many, and I also claim the the billions spent on law enforcement for ALL DRUGS is largely wasted and would be much better off spent on treatment.

Please, I'm not arguing that meth is not a horrendous drug. I'm arguing that the legality of using it has about zero to do with anyone's decision to use it or not.

[skids]

97. It's the purity/supply that has an impact on use...

...in this case.

http://www.house.gov/larsen/meth/press_20041003_oregonian_unnecessaryepidemic.shtml

[Warren Stupidity]

116. It is the same old same old.

"Deprive traffickers of ephedrine and pseudoephedrine, and the meth trade withers."

Which drug is it that prohibition has successfully ended abuse of that drug?

It doesn't work. We've been down this road for various substances now since prohibition, 90 years of idiocy, and it has done nothing except increase the harm from drug abuse and enrich both sides of the drug wars.

[sendero]

120. I haven't the slightest..

... doubt of your sincerity in wanting to address a serious issue. I've seen the results of meth, and I agree with you, this is the most insidious drug EVER. The damage done, and that will be done, is huge and many Americans have no idea this is even happening.

Where I think I disagree with you is the idea that law enforcement has any answer at all.

Up in North Texas and Oklahoma, this stuff is at epidemic stage. You'd think it would be easy to at least keep in check, but it isn't. In many cases, "neighbors" know what is going on (a lab really stinks) but they won't call the cops because they are afraid to get involved. I myself had to issue vague threats to a landlord near my property to get these malignant fuckers away or else.

But the fact is, and this is true of all drugs, the legal consequences are far greater than the medical and social ones, and yet these same legal consequences prevent VERY FEW people from trying/using this nasty shit.

After all these years, there has got to be a better way.

[ChiciB1]

133. I Think I Stated This Yesterday...

Many of those in law-enforcement have family members who are just as addicted as those of us who aren't in law-enforcement.

I for one know of at least 6 law-enforcement people, and also know of more that are involved in the Rehab circles who have no good answers to this epidemic. Many involved with Rehab have members of their family in jail at this time because there is NO REAL REHAB!! No room, no facilities!

At least none that deals with THIS problem specifically, and none that don't cost thousands of dollars. All court ordered Rehab is almost useless from what I've been told and from what I've seen. As another person stated here, until you're in the middle of this thing, you really don't feel the full brunt of what is actually happening! I NEVER thought I would see this so up close and personal, and I stay depressed most of the time!

I've lost my son to this and I don't feel very optimistic about his recovery. And if I should find out where he is, I don't feel optimistic that he's in very good physical shape. Down the road, if he should live, I wonder what health problems he will be facing. Right now, my husband and I are caring for his mother who has Alzheimer's (7 years now) and now I fear I'm looking at long term care for my son should he live through his addiction!

I've been told law-enforcement KNOWS where he may be, but THEY aren't going in because they have 2 family members at the same place! I'm told this is very good information, but then who knows. I just sit and worry all the time!

[ChiciB1]

135. I AGREE WITH YOU ON THIS!

Making it legal and collecting taxes on it would be more helpful in a way because perhaps they could spend the money "wisely" on those people who can actually be helped.

There will always be those who will never give up the addiction, but I do think many can be helped.

I only have one BIG draw back about legalization. CHILDREN! Hard core drugs that are legalized makes it much easier for even the youngest ones to get their hands on.

But then again, children being placed in foster homes, or those who are orphaned are in much better shape either!

THE BEAT GOES ON!

[Maat]

98. Well- said!

I cannot possibly describe the unimaginable abuse and neglect I saw as a social worker, from 1993 to 2000.

It was as if the meth flipped the 'Pure Evil' switch on a previously relatively decent human being.

Now, out here in California, if it is just a possession charge, we do have an effective diversion program ... and I support that (treatment or jail - the addict's choice).

[Harald Ragnarsson]

130. I think that's more from the people you have to deal with

than from the drug itself.

Believe it or not, the people who cook and sell meth are not the nicest people in the world to have to hang around with and deal with on a daily basis.

Take that out of the loop and see what happens.

[Maat]

137. I agree - there's no question those that cook and sell meth ..

are mean, nasty people, by and large (in my experience). I had many conversations with "middle management" personnel; they tended to be heartless individuals.

I'm not so pessimistic, though, about the average addict.

I have seen hundreds turn their lives around; they tended to do that in my context because their children were so precious to them.

I'm proud of a relative that was able to quit, and who has been clean for seven years now.

He had to get rid of his cues; in other words, he had to move, develop a different routine, and make an entirely new circle of friends. It was hard, but he did it. It was no cakewalk; in order to end a meth addiction, you have to be committed to it 24/7 for a long, long time. That is the most addictive substance I have ever seen - I don't care what anyone says. Perhaps opiates are more 'phyically addictive,' but meth grabs ahold of a person lock, stock and barrel, so-to-speak, and makes them aggressive, paranoid and dangerous. Sad, but not impossible to turn around.

I pray for those whose families have been affected.

[Trillo]

105. It would be a reasonable argument if

there was no other prohibition. Why can't I (or others in the U.S.) buy antibiotics without seeing a doctor? Have medical tests run a laboratory? Well, the licensed drug pushers have set up exclusionary profit mechanisms. Educators, doctors, and pharmacists are part of this profit syndicate. If I don't like it? Tough.

I could go on, but I'm still pissed I (or others in the U.S.) can't buy pseudoephedrine for legal uses such as allergies.

Ain't FREEDOM GRAND? FREEDOM FOR THE RICH. _____ everyone else.

[Tsiyu]

113. A few weeks ago

a local student fell out of an SUV going 60 mph down the Interstate.

Why? He was leaning out of the vehicle to puke. He was drunk.

He's still alive, but his life is severely sidetracked.

The point: Even legal substances can fuck up lives. I have seen more alcohol and cocaine fuckups, and I have seen more than meth destroy hopes and futures and families.

Oh, I live in Appalachia now, and meth is a severe problem. My home has been broken into; I've seen kids taken away from a neighbor; I've listened to hard-working people bemoan the loss of things they need because some geeker stole to pay for a fix. I've watched my cousin - a woman with a degree in accounting, not a fool - become a paranoid, sick, sad person who no longer resembles her former self, because of meth.

But I have seen food kill people. I have seen cigarettes kill people ( and I smoke!). I have seen alcohol and rage and greed kill people. I refuse to ascribe some magical power to meth.

The magic power is in how we view addiction. We accept and laugh off food addiction, shopping addiction, sexual addiction. We don't really demonize these addicts or make it difficult for them to get their fix.

We don't make people sign forms to buy food. They can buy as much as they can shove down their throats. We don't restrict the shopper - credit practically grows on trees. But obesity is a number one killer in the USA and no one is saving money for the future. Kids are getting fatter and poorer because of their parents' proclivities.

Let's face it. We are a nation that wants to feel good. And we sound pretty damned stupid when we demonize one group of addicts over another. We're all freakin' addicts!

Let's keep the food addicts away from all food but lettuce and carrots and broiled fish and see how long it takes before they steal some ice cream. Let's keep all the Material People out of the mall and take away all of their credit cards. Let's take away all TV from the couch potatoes and cigarettes from the nicotine heads and alcohol from the NASCAR crowd. Shit, we could really "fix" a lot of people that way.

Or we could be a nation full of desperate - but still addicted - people.

Hmmmm....The War on Everything. Has a nice ring to it....

[donheld]

114. Thank you for this Skids

I know too many good kids who have become addicts, and It's going to kill them if they aren't really really lucky. Jeremy, Angel, Zack, Daemon are just for I can list off the top of my head.

[mattclearing]

124. Great post.

I don't really have a dog in this issue, but have been a decriminalization advocate for some time.

Thanks for bringing some much-needed perspective to this discussion.