So what is happening with the Ala. "Pranksters?"

[goclark]

I'm hearing about Aruba girl, the African American guy with the DNA matching problem in New York, Michael Jackson and his Neverland Ranch but....

Why don't I see the "Pranksters" that destroyed the churches and ruined the lives of hundreds of people in Alabama!

Why aren't we seeing them on the news night and day?

Why aren't we looking into every aspect of why anyone would do something such as this ~

[bowens43]

1. Why?

They've been arrested and are awaiting trial. Would you prefer a public hanging or something?

[goclark]

3. I sure would like more information

They have admitted that they did it!

What is happening so that more rich little innocent "pranksters" don't do something like this again?

How do we know that some of their "friends" aren't waiting in the wings like Timmy McVeigh?

I know one thing, if those little "pranksters" were from an urban area they would be all over the news, night and day.

They would be interviewing all their friends, putting them on the cover of Time magazine and going into the garbage cans of their distant cousins.

[suffragette]

9. You've got that right

And we'd be having 24/7 cable coverage and War on Churches or some similar name for coverage.
Plus it's likely all that would be done without them being able to have access to lawyers, due process or trial.

[goclark]

23. That's what I'm talking about Suffragette!

We are on the same page.

We are talking about equal justice ~ in the Media and in the Courts.

[suffragette]

26. Yes, equal justice is exactly what this is about

The media exerts a great deal of influence on people in this area by how much they cover issues and people and the manner in which they cover them. What's even worse about this is that so many don't acknowledge or realize how pervasive and pernicious this is.
And there is the matter of who even has access to lawyers, courts and fair trials or even having a trial at all.
I get exactly what you're saying and am right there with you.

[goclark]

30. Some would say that OJ

got equal justice.

Why, because he was able to hire $$$$ lawyers and Johnnie Cochran was skilled enough to outsmart the other lawyers.

That part was what happens for RICH people.

The cover on TIME magazine that was darkened for OJ was not "equal."

Recall when OJ was hand cuffed standing by a TREE on his front lawn.

Now recall how SCOTT PETERSON was NEVER shown in that fashion and he killed his WIFE and UNBORN BABY.

I just recall seeing Scott Peterson after he was arrested and in jail.
Correct me if I'm wrong on that point.


Minor points but hurtful to those that believe that justice is not equal in Amerika.

There is no way that the coverage would be minus zero on this issue if these "pranksters" had been Brown in Color, no way!

[Sapphire Blue]

32. If these "pranksters" had been of any other minority than that of the...

... privileged, Rita would have set up camp in Alabama, and the blood lust crowd would probably have come out screaming for 'justice'. There would be intense analyzation of the "pranksters'" motives. If they were Muslim, they would immediately be accused of being terrorists. If they were poor & black, they would be accused of being gang thugs. If they were Hispanic, they would have been accused of being 'illegals'. If they were Goth, comparisons would be made to Columbine. ad infinitum.

But they are of the privileged class; the privileged class that owns the media, the privileged class that owns Rita Cosby, et al... and so it goes.

No such thing as reporting news on TV anymore. No such thing as journalism on TV anymore. Paraphrasing what Hillary said, we're on the plantation now.

[goclark]

33. Plantation Time!

So right you are.

IMO, people that have ancestors that were on plantations, seem to have a better grip on what Hilliary was saying.

I knew instantly what she was saying because for years, the stories passed down in our family about what "being a slave" meant.

After the 2004 election, as a Democrat and already Black :), I instantly knew that I was on the Republican Plantation and I was joined on that Plantation by everyone,no matter what color,that voted for GORE.

From 2004 until the time stamped on this post, every one that is not a Freeper on DU is on the Republican Plantation!

The sooner we all can rap our minds around that concept, the better off we will be.

But nooooo, so many of us want to believe that we are FREE, we don't realize that we may be in the Big House if we have a certain income level/skin tone but until our name is Cheney and mistake people for quails, we are SLAVES to the almighty Bush family.

For those on the Bush Plantation, there is no justice. Especially no POLITICAL JUSTICE.

[Sapphire Blue]

36. It's not only us; non-privileged repubs are on the plantation, too.

They just don't get it yet... they're still allowed in the kitchen.

[goclark]

46. Right On Sapphire

I'm not sure anyone gets it but Black people.

We were on plantations so we know exactly what it feels like....


Wakew up Amerika,wake up!

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

56. Yes, and the Cable News Question of the Day would be "is pretrial lynching

okay?" Inquiring minds want to know!

[suffragette]

41. Actually, I don't think these are minor points at all

and they are good examples of media influence and manipulation.

Another example of thi can be found in the cases of Jose Padilla and William Krar.

Most people know who Padilla is since both tv and print media have covered it extensively, generally calling him the "dirty bomb suspect," Held for years on that accusation and denied due process, he was only finally even charged because the administration thought the Supreme Court might hear his case and decide against the administration being able to hold citizens without affording tem due process. Then they don't even charge him with the main thing they've been accusing him of in the media all along, yet much of the media still uses the "dirty bomb" bit when wrting about him.

Most people have never heard of Krar and you have to search to find and piece together his case. A good article on it can be found at
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1229/p02s01-usju.html

Here is some info from it:

Inside the home and storage facilities of William Krar, investigators found a sodium-cyanide bomb capable of killing thousands, more than a hundred explosives, half a million rounds of ammunition, dozens of illegal weapons, and a mound of white-supremacist and antigovernment literature.

The case began in the fall of 2002 when a package bound for New Jersey was misdelivered to a New York address. The family inadvertently opened the package and found fake identification badges, including Department of Defense and United Nations IDs. The FBI eventually tracked the package back to Mr. Krar in Noonday, Texas.

The cache of weapons and bombs was found when the FBI served a search warrant in April of this year. Krar and his common-law wife, Judith Bruey, and the receiver of the package, New Jersey Militia member Edward Feltus, were arrested.

"Without question, it ranks at the very top of all domestic terrorist arrests in the past 20 years in terms of the lethality of the arsenal," says Daniel Levitas, author of "The Terrorist Next Door: The Militia Movement and the Radical Right."


Krar and his wife had access to an attorney and were charged and convicted, so they received due process. Their sentences? 11 years for him and 5 for her - see http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:1MwAL34BWBsJ:www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/05/04/cyanide.sentencing.ap/+william+krar+11+years+sentence&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1&client=safari
Sorry the url is so long, but I had to use the cached version since the direct link gives a page not found error - which is interesting in its own right.
Have they even bothered to look for other possible co-conspirators? Who knows since there is virtually no coverage.

In addition to their clearly different treatment, there is another difference - the color of their skin.

Oh and Krar had been stopped previously, but not even investigated at that point, even though he had a previous arrest for impersonating a police officer.

Here's more on that from http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/Southwest/01/30/cyanide.probe.ap/

Last January, a Tennessee state trooper stopped Krar for a traffic violation and found in his rental car two handguns, a grenade, handcuffs, a gas mask, 16 knives and 40 wine-like bottles filled with an unknown substance."

[goclark]

44. BINGO! Prankster Krar

I don't recall learning anything about him.

Thanks for the info...

[NYC]

77. I read about Krar, but didn't even remember his name.

In fact, I had forgotten the incident (despite its enormity) until you posted.

Domestic terrorism. Swept under the rug.

[goclark]

96. Yep, well said NYC, domestic terrorism nt

[suffragette]

99. And there's a lot of picking and choosing what gets swept under the rug

and what has the klieg lights of the press shined on it.

Domestic terrorism by white, aryan people/groups like Krar -swept
Accusations against Padilla - bright lights and column lines

Attacks by RW people and groups against medical personnel and clinics which also provide abortions - mostly swept
Attacks against animal labs - bright lights and column lines and law enforcement emphasis.

[Catchawave]

91. Time Mag just posted this:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1172241-1,00.html

[Pacifist Patriot]

4. Wanting information isn't equivalent with seeking grotesque jollies.

The OP asked some good questions. And considering what IS being covered, finding out why they did this, what is happening to them as they are processed through the justice system, and how those affected in Alabama are handling the situation would be more interesting to me.

[goclark]

10. That is exactly what we should be hearing

but my television is silent on the matter.

We need to know how they are processing through the system and we certainly want to know what is being done to protect other churches from suffering the same sorrow.

Who knows, there could be some rich "pranksters" in other locations that would want to do the same thing.

Little Katie Couric and Dr. Phil need to be talking with parents about how to keep their innocent darlings from becoming "pranksters" in the first place.

[Marr]

2. If they were Arabs you'd be hearing about it round the clock.

[Bozita]

6. They'd NEVER be addressed as "pranksters"

[goclark]

7. If they were rich American Arabs,

the coverage would be non-stop!

Their friends would have been rounded up and put in a secret jail.

Right you are Marr~

How do we know that "the pranksters" are not on the side of the "terrorists?"

What in hell would make them want to systematically do that and hurt so many?

They could be Anti Religious Zealots for all we know.

[rocktivity]

5. Because they're zany college kids "pranksters," not hate criminals

or--gasp--terrorists! I mean, if the Patriot act applies to people buying drugs that allow them to making meth, surely it applies to people who conspire to burn down churches!

:headbang:
rocknation

[stray cat]

8. They are going to jail and have ruined their futures

Nobody is treating it as a prank nor should they.

[goclark]

11. Then what is happening?

Why is nothing being reported about something so important as the freedom of religion in the USA?

[stray cat]

13. How often do people commit crimes and go to jail?

No one is missing the case is solved the criminals are busted.

[goclark]

48. This case is far from solved

These idiots had some help and some motivation other than drinking.

I read the links above over again... this involves far more IMO.

[Bozita]

14. If "Happy Holidays" is an attack on Christmas, WTF is this?

[goclark]

16. To me this is truly an attack on religion

I am concerned not because I am Christian.

I am equally as concerned about the religious sites that Bush, the "Supreme drunk prankster" bombed in Iraq.

It is wrong and it is a story that is not just about these little "pranksters" but I think there is more, much more to the story.

If they were just "Boys Gone Wild" from having two beers, why did they pick churches?

Why not pick cars to burn up, as the rich "pranksters" do after football games?

[goclark]

55. Arsonist, Hate Crimes Specialists

and terrorists come to mind.

[goclark]

34. While they were "ruining their future"

they were ruining the future of hundreds of families.

A familie's place of worship is just like their home, IMO.

Again, society needs to know exact WHY they did these horrible deeds ~ going to jail and doing time is not good enough.

Saying "we had a few beers" is not good enough.

[peacebaby3]

12. I've actually heard and read a good bit about them. Here's a link to more

info:

<http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?p=church+fires+alabama&fr=FP-tab-news-t&toggle=1&cop=&ei=UTF-8>

I just saw a headline this morning on Yahoo about the fact that drinking played a role. Duh?

Here is a link to that exact story:

<http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060310/ap_on_re_us/church_fires_31>

I don't really have any sympathy for these guys...they were out night hunting, trying to shoot deer. They are spoiled, privileged, immature thugs, but they haven't killed anyone - even though their actions could have. There is the possibility of them spending 50+ yrs. in prison. Just the charges for the fires alone could be 40-50 yrs. and then they could be charged with other crimes as well.

[goclark]

15. Thanks for the link peacebaby3

I quickly scanned ( but will carefully read) the links.

I found out more from your post than I have from Rita Cosby and the gang of so called reporters.

True,no one was KILLED but the fear in the community was REAL.

Their spirits were certainly killed.
Thanks again for the links.

[peacebaby3]

37. No problem. I understand where you are coming from. I don't really bother

to watch any of the news programming anymore. They just repeat the same crap over and over again. I also don't want their opinion and too many of these talking heads are giving me their opinion.

I also understand what you are saying about destroying the community, but I'm not sure I would feel good about these stupid assholes going to jail for 50+ years. It seems extreme to me. I sort of feel the same way about the church burnings as I do about flag burning. You can burn the American flag or burn down a church, but you can't stop what those things mean in my heart. That was just a building they burned down....the congregation is what made the church. BUT, I also understand the fact that they are just lucky they didn't cause more damage or hurt someone and that it certainly hurt the church congregation emotionally & financially when they burned down their church building. I don't want to come across as not caring about what they did either.

If I were a member of one of the churches, I would forgive them, send them for a short stint in jail, put them on parole and make them work their asses off until they raised money and built each church back. Then they would spend time every day teaching people about the danger of starting a fire as a "prank." I know to some that will sound pretty crazy, but I think that it would do a lot more for society and actually "righting a wrong" than the jerks sitting in prison for years. It just might actually do them some good as well.

I would feel this way regardless of race, religion, etc.

Just my thoughts.

[goclark]

39. As painful as it is, my mother taught me

to always " know thy enemy" and if I stop watching Bushco, I don't know what they are thinking and doing.

I read the news, watch the Bush Controlled TV stations and read Bushcotrolled Magazines.

I will keep up to date on their activities like a hawk.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

57. Burning a flag is different than arson, burning buildings. The latter,

in addition to causing massive $$ property damage, has the potential to kill or maim, if people were in the building unbeknownst to the arsonist, or firefighters and rescuers could be burned or killed fighting the fire.

There's a huge difference.

[goclark]

62. BINGO

Huge difference between a flag and arson.

GW didn't burn a flag, he burned a country and thousands of people DIED because of that little prankster from a "good" family.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

69. Interesting, the ABC article mentions "vandalism" but I don't see "arson"

anywhere which I thought was the usual term when fire is set to buildings.

I wonder what they will be charged with. I'm assuming arson is a felony, is it not?

And I don't know why the deputy fire marshal and campus police chief would attempt to make the case FOR these guys by minimizing their actions, saying that alcohol and "night hunting" "LED" to these acts. Sheesh. Unless perhaps it's because they are members of upstanding moneyed families in the community, one a doctor's son and the other the son of an elected REPUBLICAN constable.

http://www.abcactionnews.com/stories/2006/03/060310churchfires.shtml

However, deputy state fire marshal Ed Paulk, who was involved in the investigation, said he did not know if alcohol was a direct factor.

"We were told by official sources ... that seemingly some drinking, some night hunting, was ultimately what led to all of this," said Randy Youngblood, the campus police chief at Birmingham-Southern College.

What the hell does "night hunting" have to do with burning churches down? Sheesh, I'd think the people who attended these churches might be a bit upset with these young men? I don't see any of them interviewed...

[goclark]

70. BINGO! JACKPOT Post!

I knew "Republican" would be in here somewhere.

This story is dirty to the core.

There have been some BIG money pay offs to keep these little "pranksters" from being arsonists.

[bobbieinok]

98. 'night hunting' links with KKK night ridders in my mind....just saying

IMO, we're 'lucky' no one was hunted down, killed, lynched

sounds like elite, privileged class who can do whatever they want b/c it's 'their right'

[peacebaby3]

92. I guess you didn't get my point.

As I stated in my post...

"I sort of feel the same way about the church burnings as I do about flag burning. You can burn the American flag or burn down a church, but you can't stop what those things mean in my heart. That was just a building they burned down....the congregation is what made the church. BUT,I also understand the fact that they are just lucky they didn't cause more damage or hurt someone and that it certainly hurt the church congregation emotionally & financially when they burned down their church building."

I spoke about the fact that you cannot take away the meaning of the church or the meaning of the flag by burning them and in that way it compares to me.

I then also said basically the exact same thing you did in your reply to me.

I'm not excusing arson. I'm merely stating that you cannot take away the deeper meaning of the church by burning down the building. I bet the congregations of those churches would say the same.

[goclark]

47. I read the link again, my tin hat is ON ,on TIGHT

Snip

>"However, deputy state fire marshal Ed Paulk, who was involved in the investigation, said he did not know if alcohol was a direct factor."

> "We were told by official sources ... that seemingly some drinking, some night hunting, was ultimately what led to all of this," said Randy Youngblood, the campus police chief at Birmingham-Southern College.<



How do we know that we are not dealing with another Tim McVeigh!

Sounds to me that even the Deputy Fire Marshall was trying to help us read between the huge lines.... "HE DID NOT KNOW IF ALCOHOL WAS INVOLVED."

"Seemingly" > that means that there was a Cheney/quail pay off big time.

"We were TOLD by official sources."

Any body with an ounce of brains( and both students had more than an ounce) would know to cover up why they really did it!

This story is much deeper, mark my words.

[peacebaby3]

93. You may be right, but I sort of doubt it.

Unfortunately, it sounds like a bunch of stupid, AL hicks. I run into them here almost every day.

Here's an interesting article from the B'Ham News that gives a little more insight into their mentality:

Cyberspace postings highlight students' false sense of security
Seemingly private exchanges give peek into minds, lives of accused arsonists
Sunday, March 12, 2006
The three college students accused of setting fire to nine Alabama churches left a computer chat room trail that was a window into their personalities.

Within hours after Ben Moseley, 19; Russell DeBusk, 19; and Matthew Cloyd, 20, were arrested Wednesday on arson charges, reporters were mining their personal postings on the Facebook Web site. All three had registered for the site when they were Birmingham-Southern College students; Cloyd later transferred to UAB.

The students didn't talk directly about the fires, but bragged about excessive drinking and partying in messages rife with obscene language.

In one of the few posts not full of obscenity, Cloyd wrote on Nov. 28:
"Moseley/Monday night/Case of Beer/Powerful Rifle/Lots of Ammo/Green 4Runner/2 complete idiots/1 pack of camel lights/0 law enforcement officers/33 dead innocent whitetailed deer/insanely high speeds+"

<http://www.al.com/news/birminghamnews/index.ssf?/base/news/1142158614270050.xml&coll=2&thispage=1>

Here's a link to the complaint in pdf:

<http://www.al.com/birminghamnews/documents/030806complaint.pdf>

As for the investigator knowing if alcohol was involved...he probably did, but would not confirm or deny it to the press. As an investigator myself (except I'm a defense/mitigation investigator), I won't even talk to the press if I am involved in any case. There may also never be any way to ever know, without a doubt, about the alcohol because you only have the defendents' statements, but it does appear to be consistent with their normal behavior based on the collateral interviews and evidence so far.

Just my opinion and you may be right, but no tin hat for me at this time.

I'll try to remember to post something on DU when I hear anything about the case if it doesn't get much national coverage.

[goclark]

97. Please keep us informed and thanks for your post

I read something in Newsweek/Time about one of them.

Posted something on a website about " wanting to spread EVIL."

What is that about --- drinkers usually don't want to be evil, they just want to have fun.

[peacebaby3]

100. Sure. I will try to make a note to post anything new. I also read the "want

"wanting to spread evil" part and it made me ponder for about a second.

It didn't really mean too much to me because most terrorists, hate groups, etc. think they are spreading "righteousness" so they wouldn't label themselves or their actions as "evil."

It sounds like some "moran", IMHO.

I'm open to changing my opinion if I see any evidence to support any other underlying reasons.

[goclark]

101. "Wanting to Spread Evil" made me ponder for more than a second

This little prankster has more going on.

What do HATE groups do but want to spread evil and more hate....they wouldn't call it righteousness.

This one doesn't take Columbo to do some more questioning.

[peacebaby3]

102. I disagree. I think that terrorists and hate groups believe what they are

doing is the right thing to do and they wouldn't label themselves or their actions as evil.

We see their actions as evil, but it's not evil in their twisted logic.

Osama Bin Laden, the KKK, etc. all believe they are righteous in their belief, so why would they label their actions in fighting their nemesis or taking some kind of stand as evil?

I guess they could be satanists and believe in practicing evil, but I'm not an expert on the beliefs of practicing satanists so I wouldn't want to say they purposely practice evil.

I guess we'll see if there is more to it over time. As I said before, I'm open to believing there is something else, but I need to see some evidence to support that first.

[BiggJawn]

17. Has Nancy Grace even UTTERED their NAMES?

Is Rita the Gasper heading down there to interview all their classmates?

No?

Why not? Because buildings and endangered firefighters don't pull like Missing Pretty White Girls?

[goclark]

20. BINGO!

She should be having their parents/classmates on her show.

She should have on a fire hat and take a hose and show us how the firefighters had to risk their lives.

She should have a running $$ amount for rebuilding the churches.
We should be given a list of the names of the churches so we can donate to help them rebuild their spiritual lives.

She should be visiting one of the burned churches next Sunday and worship with them on the ground by the ashes.

[Bozita]

18. Would I be a "prankster" if I blew up living frogs with firecrackers?

[goclark]

22. In the eyes of Barbara Bush you would be a "prankster" yes

you would.

That is why this issue hits my heart.

These little Bushy Boys are going to go to jail,yes.

But, as of now, if we are to believe the MSM,Michael Jackson has done more damage to the animals at Never Land than these little Bushy Boys did to society.

[donsu]

19. who first penned or said "prankster"? why pick that word?

the cops? a reporter?

[goclark]

21. I was shocked when I heard the word on tv

It was a cable tv reporter I believe.

I know I didn't pick it.

[Karenina]

40. WHAT? Rita Cosby hasn't called them out

as HOODLUMS???

[Evoman]

24. Why does it matter?

I don't really get what your after. The crime is solved..there is no mystery, nor are there any surprises. They burnt down some churches, they were caught, they confessed, and they are going to jail. Honestly, what kind of information are you looking for? Do you really want to know what their grade 3 teachers thought of them?

I mean, don't get me wrong. In the scale of things, I don't think the aruba girl is 24 hours a day news-worthy, but at least that thing remains unsolved so its somewhat more "exciting".

Why would someone do something like this? Why do some people rob banks? Why do some people kill their lovers in a jealous rage? Why do some people start doing drugs?

Probably a bunch of different reasons, may be no reasons at all. Maybe churches are just more accessible. Maybe these kids were deviant, church hating atheists. Maybe they were christians with a bone to pick when jesus didn't help them win the lottery. Does it matter? Are you looking for someone to get mad at? Are you hoping they are atheists or satanists or whatever because then you can call those people out? I don't get it.

Evoman

[goclark]

27. From your post I understand why you don't get it nt

[newyawker99]

43. Hi Evoman!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Sapphire Blue]

25. It's all about privilege.

The Aruba girl is a child of privilege. Michael Jackson is a (black!!!) man of privilege.

The church attacks don't appear to have been an attack against Christianity, don't appear to be racially, ethnically, politically, or religously motivated, so there's not enough drama for Rita Cosby, et al, to cover this story 24/7. Doesn't seem to matter what the impact was on the churches' congregations.

The spin is that they were college kids, playing pranks that got out of control. (Wasn't a similar comparison made to the torture @ Abu Ghraib?)

These criminals are children of the privileged; they will most likely receive excellent legal representation... and continue living the lives of the privileged... even if convicted & incarcerated.

Remember the privileged son who tortured frogs? Remember the frat boy who routinely got drunk, avoided Vietnam by joining the NG, then went AWOL? He's now playing the biggest prank of all... playing 'commander-in-chief'... now responsible for the torture of humans. Why the hell isn't this investigated & covered 24/7?!?!?!?!

[goclark]

28. BINGO Sapphire Blue!

As always, you nailed it.

Our society has a way of excusing the "prankster" when their name is GWBUSH/talks like GW or looks like GW --- or his drunk daughter that had $$$$ in her purse and lost it in a bar, the wallet was found by some type of low life man.

Little Georgie just liked to kill frogs ~ let's move along.:boring:

Little Jenna just likes to have a few sips in a bar and can't find her $$$$'s when she has Secret Service and a Credit Card to buy her "drinks." ~ let's move along,College Girls Just Wanta Have Fun:boring:


Little GW just STOLE an election, he can't speak or read the newspaper but let's not ask questions ~ let's move along and elect him PRESIDENT. :boring:

Two rich college boys were arrested for burning down churches, that news was all over the airways UNTIL their arrest, we SEE them and now ~ let's move along. :boring:

They are going to do some times so that is all we need to know about that closed book.

We need to get back to Aruba girl because she has not been found yet. :puke:

[AlabamaYankee]

29. If you want information

The internet is your friend. All you need to do is go to http://www.al.com/ and click on the Birmingham News. It's really a local or statewide story than a national one, as it ought to be. The kids admitted it; they're in very serious trouble and their carefree privileged lives as college students is gone forever in a prolonged moment of drunk and stupid. Birmingham Southern College, where two of them were students is stepping up to the plate and offering to help rebuild the churches, although they're certainly nmot under any legal obligation to do so (they're Methodist-affiliated.

That's about it.

[goclark]

31. Thanks for the link, I really appreciate it

But my point is that I should not have to go to an Alabama link, I should be able to see EXACTLY what is happening on the news, in CA, on my TV.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

58. I wouldn't characterize burning NINE buildings as a prolonged "moment".

That's a lotta moments strung out over a lot of days.

[goclark]

76. BINGO Mayberry

Why do these little darlings have so much protection, even from DU?

Interesting.

[Rocknrule]

35. They will soon be the new presidents of the Republican Party

[goclark]

38. BINGO! They meet all of the qualifications

White
Male
Rich
No Compassion and on and on

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

42. Probably going to join the Army to become prison guards.

[goclark]

45. Or do Security for the Ports nt

[opihimoimoi]

49. Those Burnings were not PRANKs..It was ARSON, Fires risk lives

The Firefighters on the way with their speeding apparatus presents a deadly danger to any vehicle/pedestrian on the road....

Those guilty guys should be made to work for the rest of their sorry lives to rebuild/repay the lost structures...

[goclark]

51. BINGO and the MSM still wants

to call it "smart college kids having a few drinks."

If smart college kids having a few drinks reacted like they did, there would be no churches left in Amerika.

There is much more to this story.

[Coexist]

50. Great article about those "crazy kids"

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-churches10mar10,0,1567431.story?coll=la-headlines-nation

<snip>
They were being molded by one of Alabama's most prestigious private schools — a Methodist-affiliated college where 70% of students take part in organized volunteer work.

Yet when the biweekly paper hit the racks this week, DeBusk and Moseley — both 19 — were in federal custody, charged in a string of church fires in poorer, rural communities to the south and west of here.

A third man, Matthew Lee Cloyd, 20, also was arrested and charged in connection with the fires. Cloyd, a student at the University of Alabama at Birmingham, is the son of a doctor and was an honor student in high school.

In the suburbs of Birmingham this week, people were perplexed. "They were smart kids, middle class," said Lane Graham, 57, a resident of DeBusk's hometown, Hoover. "You don't know if it's stuff they read, stuff they learned in school or what."

[goclark]

59. One doesn't know

if they are in some kind of hate group either.

Tip of the iceberg time for these two arsonists.

[Mind_your_head]

52. Some comments

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-churches10mar10,0,1567431.story?coll=la-headlines-nation
from LA Times article:

Moseley and Cloyd burned four more churches a few days later to throw investigators off their trail, according to an affidavit filed by the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

#1) One of the BIG things that screams out about this to me is that once the perps got concerned that THEY MIGHT GET CAUGHT (they apparently didn't have some big sense of 'remorse' or an "OMG What have we done?" moment....they went out and burned FOUR MORE CHURCHES! They, in a very calculated way, continued to commit and expand their crimes! It wasn't ALL done in a 'drunken frenzy' one night. This to me is very damning for them and why I don't feel mercy towards these perps.

------------------

All three suspects in the church fires grew up in neighborhoods with median household incomes of more than $50,000. In Sumter County, where the students allegedly burned Galilee Baptist Church, the median household income is $18,911. Nearly 40% of Sumter County residents live below the poverty line.

#2) Why did the suspects go to poverty stricken Sumter County to burn a church. Why not one in the wealthy town of Hoover, for instance? Did the "pranksters" think it was more "funny" to pick on poor people's churches? Is it funny to "kick people when they're down? Less chance of getting caught? Why?

-----------------
The charges seemed particularly difficult to swallow at Birmingham-Southern. The small campus attracts the children of Alabama's elite. Its students are proud of their commitment to public service. They tutor in inner-city Birmingham, work in San Francisco homeless shelters and volunteer in Mozambique.

#3) Perhaps some good can come of this if the "elite students" start helping their neighbors in Sumter County where, according to the article, 40% of residents live below the poverty line. They don't need to go so far from home and as exotic a place as Mozambique (even though it 'sounds cool'). There's poor black people in their own back yard that need help!

-----------------
Some on campus sought Thursday to distance themselves from the arrests. A few dozen students had signed a resolution posted in the cafeteria and passed by the student government the night before. It stated that the crimes did not represent the school's principles of "positive community and civic engagement, honorable morals and global human dignity

#4) I believe using a word like 'anathema' instead of 'represent' would much better demonstrate an appropriate level of disgust and condemnation of these crimes. They're college kids, after all. They can use 'big words'. As they saying goes "If you can't say what you mean, you can't mean what you say". But perhaps 'represent' is the correct measure of their level of disgust? :shrug:

anathema

Main Entry: anath·e·ma
Pronunciation: &-'na-th&-m&
Function: noun

Etymology: Late Latin anathemat-, anathema, from Greek, thing devoted to evil, curse, from anatithenai to set up, dedicate, from ana- + tithenai to place, set -- more at DO
1 a : one that is cursed by ecclesiastical authority b : someone or something intensely disliked or loathed -- usually used as a predicate nominative <this notion was anathema to most of his countrymen -- S. J. Gould>

2 a : a ban or curse solemnly pronounced by ecclesiastical authority and accompanied by excommunication b : the denunciation of something as accursed c : a vigorous denunciation : CURSE

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=anathema

-------------------

[goclark]

60. BINGO

These were calculated acts of arson ~ not something done after a few beers at a football game.

[Blue_Tires]

53. because we've been told they are 'good' students from 'good' families

nt

[opihimoimoi]

54. Good Students don do dat shit.............they misspell, .................

miss a class or two....

[goclark]

61. Like GW is from a "good family"

and he was a regular little "prankster" from a good little school.
He went to college ~

And the thug bush has set fire to an entire country and kills thousands and ruined the lives of millions.

[genie_weenie]

63. Innocent until proven guilty

that's all I have to say.

[goclark]

64. They said they did it and their friends

are not saying that they didn't do it.


No one said OJ was innocent until proven guilty.

That's all I have to say.

[genie_weenie]

66. confessions are not 100%

"No one said OJ was innocent until proven guilty"

Doesn't matter, OJ has no relevance to this case...

Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, not a court of public opinion...

[goclark]

67. Thanks for the input

This is but another injustice in Amerika.

While we are "waiting" for the Courts to make a decision,the court of public opinion in Amerika is saying that they are "good little pranksters" when they are not!

[Mind_your_head]

71. Uh, They confessed to the crimes

Are you suggesting that "they aren't guilty" or that "they shouldn't be punished to the full extent of the law"? or ???

and ~ if you answer this ~ would you please explain why you hold that position?

TIA

[genie_weenie]

74. No, I am emphatically stating they are Not Guilty

I hold this position because they are not guilty until proven guilty in a court of law...

I can understand all the anger people have over this event, but emotional responses are what we have hopefully moved beyond in terms of our courts. Otherwise why not just dispense justice right now?

And confessions have been gotten through various means from people who were innocent in many lands.

The real issue people *want/need* to make of this is racial. But, I don't believe these alleged arsonists committed these crimes on those grounds.

Am I way off?

[Name removed]

81. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mind_your_head]

83. Yes, I think you are 'off'

First if you had read any of my other posts on this subject, I have a 'bit of experience' with this church burning stuff b/c it happened in my community a few years ago. It's a 'white' upscale community, the church is 'white', and the arsonist was a young, white man who came from a 'good family'. He is the parents' ONLY CHILD, in fact. The arsonist got 20 years for burning this one church to the ground. (Btw, the perp then tried to arrange, from his jail cell, for the murder of an informant to whom he had bragged about the incident. Unfortunately for the perp, the guy he was 'arranging' this with was a cop. So, now the perp's serving a life sentence.)

My point is that in the instance I cite above, there was no possiblity that the arson was racially motivated (and of course it never came up). No one stood there and said, "ah well, it's just a prank" or "he came from a 'good family'" or "he had such a promising life ahead of him" ~ because, if fact, he DID come from a 'good family' and 'yeah, he was only 20 with a whole life ahead of him'. There was just a whole bunch of really mad (rightfully so) rich white people with a *now* pile of ashes for a church, that demanded justice.

However, he had done something terribly, terribly wrong....and there was no 'explaining' it. (How can you 'explain away' burning down a church? What good purpose does it serve?) The arsonist is now justly serving the sentence called for, by law, for his crime.

The impact to the specific church community was enormous ~ physically, emotionally, and financially. Remember, this happened in a community that is 'better equipped' to recover from the incident too (versus a poor, rural church community in Alabama might be). The generousity of other churches & organizations in the area was enormous as well! But that doesn't mean that it didn't place a huge burden on their backs to 'give' in the manner that they did either - don't forget that!

Several things make these Alabama crimes particularly heinous and unpalatable:

- the arsonists burned down NINE churches
- it happened over a period of time, not one drunken night (not that that would be 'okay')
- MSM reports that 'once the arsonists became concerned about being discovered', THEY CONTINUED TO BURN DOWN MORE CHURCHES
(talk about 'being a 'huckleberry'? Give me a break!)
Perp 1: OMG they're gonna find out it's us, whadda we do?
Perp 2: I know, Let's burn down some more churches - you know, to "throw them off" :eyes:

----------------

I don't focus on the racial/black thing so much as the fact that they targeted poor churches, who are so less equipped with talent and treasure to recover from such a loss, and the fact that THEY DID IT REPEATEDLY . It's difficult for a 'wealthy' community to recover!

You know if you steal $1,000 from a rich man they won't be happy, but they'll 'survive'. If you steal $1,000 from a poor man, you may have very well stolen EVERYTHING HE HAS. Rich or poor, it doesn't matter the amount, but if you STEAL EVERYTHING THAT HE HAS, that man has a right to be angry and HE WILL BE. That's why I think it's a travesty that these poorer churches were targeted, and that's also why it MAY SEEM that the racial card is in play here.

But it's the "stealing from the poor" that's at issue - burning down their 'second home', their church

AND

The blatant/misguided attempts to cover up heinous deeds with 'spin'....
- it's a prank
- they're from a 'good' family
- promising future

Pranks don't hurt anyone. 'Good'families lifelong train their members to respect other people and their property. These boys may not have had as much 'promise' in their future as believed, if they couldn't see far enough ahead to the future that their actions may have "some consequences"....and what 'positive' thing did they hope to achieve, anyways?

---------------

As far as "innocent until proven guilty". They confessed and I haven't heard any reports that they were coerced into confessing....no bamboo under the fingernails, or the 'gitmo treatment' (stand on this box and confess or we fry your nuts).

I don't know how the courts handle trials (or if their IS a trial) when a confession is involved. I'm sure that will go through the proper formalities.

Anyways,

Peace (and Justice)

edit: added a word for clarity

[genie_weenie]

89. I've been trying to determine the criminal courts process

Since, I am not cognizant of said process. But, don't they need to be brought before a Grand Jury? Arraigned? Sentenced? Couldn't they at one of those points "claim" their confessions were coerced or false?

I'd like to be clear that if they are convicted I'd like to see a stiff sentence for 9 cases of arson. I never excused the crimes.

[Mind_your_head]

84. What 'grounds' do you think they did it on?

But, I don't believe these alleged arsonists committed these crimes on those grounds.

I'll keep the question simple.

[proud patriot]

65. or the other Right wing Terrorists

like the Anthrax mailer ,
or the others who have been arrested with explosives
in Texas and NJ

[goclark]

68. BINGO ~

Those little prnksters go right off the radar.

So busy being good like Prankster Chimp, their Godfather, told them to be.

[quaoar]

72. Here's a story in today's paper

on what their internet postings says about the "pranksters."

http://www.al.com/news/birminghamnews/index.ssf?/base/news/1142158614270050.xml&coll=2

[goclark]

78. It wouldn't open for me

without signing up.

What did the article say about the little darlings?

[LisaL]

73. What exactly is there left to cover?

They got the suspects, the suspects apparently confessed. Nobody was killed.
I am not sure what else do you want to know.

[goclark]

75. I want to know the "REAL" reason why they did it

Not the Phony Op publicity campaign stuff given by the parents/friends.

They must have KKKKarl working on this one.

And let us not forget ~ they are ARSONISTS not "pranksters."

[Sapphire Blue]

79. Why these confessed arsonsists are considered 'pranksters'...

... would be a start. Arson... a 'prank'? No, "nobody was killed", but the potential was there because of the crimes committed by these self-confessed arsonists. Would children of anyone but the privileged, committing a felony, be treated as 'pranksters'?

Why did they target rural churches, rather than churches from their 'good' neighborhoods? Who were they targeting, and why? What are their political ties?

The seriousness of these crimes is being dismissed because these self-confessed arsonists were from 'good' families. 'Good ' families... *sigh of relief* :sarcasm: They weren't Muslim 'terrorists', they weren't 'gang thugs', etc... the media (and much of the public, it seems) doesn't seem to be interested in holding children of the privileged to the same standards as those from less fortunate backgrounds.

[peacebaby3]

94. Only the defendants have said it was a "prank." I haven't read

one story that legitimized their assertion that these church fires were pranks. I think there has been a definite focus on the word "prank" because it is so absurd, but it is directly from the statement of the defendant, Moseley. I think that is why you see the terms, prank and pranksters, in quotations in most articles. I work with defendants in capital cases and they are always called all sorts of things by the press even before they are convicted (which is a whole other discussion). The press always uses "sensational key-words and phrases" and on this story they picked up the word, "prank", and ran with it because it elicits a certain emotion and is completely absurd.

There is also no evidence that they are getting off easy. They have been arrested and charged and will now most definitely be indicted and go to court (or plea if they are lucky), but the penalty alone just for the church arson is 50 yrs. and they can be charged with other crimes as well.

I haven't heard one person in AL excuse these kids. People are really serious about church in AL and I believe they will not get off easy at all.

As someone mentioned earlier, this case has died down because there just isn't much sensational about it now that these guys are caught. If they had turned out to be members of the KKK, etc. you would have probably heard more about it, but the media always jumps on a few stories and lets others die when they are no longer attention grabbers.

I work in the criminal justice system, mostly on capital cases with indigent defendants here in the "death belt" so I really do understand the arbitrariness of the system, but I haven't seen anything yet to show me that these guys are going to get off easy because they are "privileged." I can cite many other cases that would be much better examples.

[Sapphire Blue]

80. *** Could someone on this thread tell me what 'night hunting' is? ***

Sounds like something the KKK would do.

[Alamom]

85. Night Hunting for deer is illegal in most states, maybe all.

Night hunting for other animals seems to be legal at certain times in different states.

The reason; spotlighting a wild animal at night causes them to freeze in their tracks and they are "sitting ducks" so to speak. The light confuses them and they just stop not knowing what to do or where to run.
Much easier to shoot than a moving target.

Most all wild animals have this reaction to a any bright light at night, spotlights or headlights.

Night hunting of deer is illegal in Alabama or it was......

[Sapphire Blue]

86. Thanks for the reply.

Silly me, I had no idea that people did this sort of thing. And they call it 'hunting'? :shrug:

[goclark]

87. So if Cheney did his shooting in daylight

that makes that legal when he "hits" a friend?

Just wondering....it's all so crazy to me.


I wonder what would have happened if Al Gore had shot his "friend" in the face while "day hunting."

[spanone]

82. It's not 'sexy' enough for the media. Now if it was in Aruba and.....

[goclark]

88. And? And wasn't involving

two little rich "pranksters" it would be called ARSON.

[Catchawave]

90. Rich white southern republican kids ?

Nothing to see here, move along :sarcasm:

[goclark]

95. Yep, "Family Values" nt

[Mind_your_head]

103. Well now that's an interesting technique

The whole thread didn't disapper, just 18 posts did.

And, for those watching this thread, your imagination isn't playing tricks with you.....a whole buncha post just 'got disappeared'.

(Hope this doesn't get me tombstoned....ya know, speaking the truth and all.....)

[goclark]

104. Thanking those that took a stand for Justice

As the originator of this thread, I wish to thank the posters
with the positive feedback that realized that "race" wasn't the issue...rather that "JUSTICE IN AMERICA" was/is the issue, it warms my heart to know that most posters got it!

PEACE and continued WISDOM and COURAGE

goclark:loveya:

[Sapphire Blue]

105. Justice in America! Yes!

It is heartwarming to know that most posters got it! :loveya: :grouphug: