60 Minutes ...Nature or Nurture debate

[serryjw]

Did you see the young twins (9 years old)on 60 minutes...ONE is obviously having a sexual orientation conflict. I think he is not gay as much as he may very well be a transsexual in the making. He seemed to love to be a girl and loves girl things

quote......
The bedrooms of 9-year-old twins Adam and Jared couldn't be more different. Jared's room is decked out with camouflage, airplanes, and military toys, while Adam's room sports a pastel canopy, stuffed animals, and white horses.
Adam was also proud to show off his toys. "This is one of my dolls. Bratz baby," he said.

Adam wears pinkish-purple nail polish, adorned with stars and diamonds.

Asked if he went to school like that, Adam says, "Uh-huh. I just showed them my nails, and they were like, 'Why did you do that?'"

Adam's behavior is called childhood gender nonconformity, meaning a child whose interests and behaviors are more typical of the opposite sex. Research shows that kids with extreme gender nonconformity usually grow up to be gay.

end quote........
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/09/60minutes/main1385230.shtml

[upi402]

1. parents not crimping either

:applause:

[Heidi]

2. I've sort of been following that research.

Here's a book I'm reading online. You may find it interesting: http://fermat.nap.edu/books/0309084180/html/R1.html

[Yollam]

3. So many stereotypes and pseudoscience in one article...

...I don't even know where to start.

Something really bothers me about the fact that the adults in this story have already decided that one of these boys is gay and one is straight, based on their own perceptions of what they see as stereotypical behavior.

Maybe they will be, but they are 9 years old, and the discovery of their sexuality should be entirely up to them. How could their self-image not be affected by this news report (and the likelihood that the adults around them probably speculate about their sexuality while in earshot)

Jesus, just let kids grow up being themselves and don't push any of your preconceptions on them.


I hope the boyish one turns out gay and the femme one turns out straight, just because it's not what they expect.

[serryjw]

4. Actually you are being unfair

in the desire to be fair. The mother is terrific. She let the 'gay' twin choose anything he wants that makes him happy. Most parents would not let him have the bedroom or the nail polish. I have no problem with the article or the TV show ( there have been others). This is a medical/scientific journey. The 'other side' wants it to be something that is choosen. When you can prove that one of the TWINS is gay or transgender and the other is straight, is a major step to hopefully society's acceptance.

[Yollam]

5. Letting them be themselves is terrific.

Talking about their personality traits behind their back and labeling them as "gay" or "straight" at age 9 is just plain wrong.


So is the stereotype that all gays are femme/all lesbians are butch, etc.

You can only prove that one twin is transgender or gay when they are grown and are sure of that themselves. Nobody else should even try to make that determination for them.

I can just imagine the mom "O look how cute billy is with his little nail polish! Oh and Roddy is such a big man football player."

Kids often act out what we tell them they are - I object to that as much as I do men pushing their sons to play football, etc.

It may be that the parents in this story are doing just that, but the fact that they don't respect their kids' privacy makes me wonder.


I would NEVER put my kids on a national news show to be used for entertainment value like this.

[depakid]

6. "....kids on a national news show to be used for entertainment"

Cha-Ching!

That in and of itself shows that there's something more going on than meets the eye.

[serryjw]

8. All the medical studies

I have read tells us we have pretty much determined our personal traits by 9. You may not choose to put your kids through a medical study but I don't think there is anything wrong with it as long as they are not being exploited. The mom said the 'gay' son was this way by 2!There was a show about a year ago (can't remember which one) that kids by 9 KNEW that they were transsexuals and wanted to live that way.THINK of all the good that happened by parents seeing that they are not alone in what they may be going through when they have a child that is 'different'. You are over-sensitive to this ONLY because it is a study on sexual orientation. IF this was a study on a medical condition I guess you would have no problem with the research. IF they can prove that the hormone levels in the twins were different for one vs the other Dobson is gone from the national scene and its the best argument for equality in every way.

I have friends in LA that since they were infants they were part of the twin study at Univ of MN. They are scary. They REALLY are two parts of ONE egg. They stories I have heard.

[Yollam]

10. The son is effeminate, not gay.

The "manly" boy is the gay one, IMO.


Do you not see how ridiculous it is to decide kids' orientation for them at age 9?

Masculine/feminine traits often correlate with sexual preference, but they are NOT reliable indicators.

[serryjw]

12. Ridiculous?

I totally disagree. YOUR orientation certainly has been determined by 9. You obviously are not acting on it but you are what you are by then. ORIENTATION and PREFERENCE is TWO completely different subjects. You can be a transsexual and still be gay or you can be a transsexual and be straight

[Yollam]

13. That may or may not be so, but...

ONLY the individual in question can determine his/her own orientation.

What nerve for these adults to decide for this child!

[serryjw]

15. Adults are NOT deciding

the mother and 60 minutes are only observing and reporting. I think the mother is doing a great job of letting her kid be himself and the future will be what it is.

[Yollam]

22. That's exactly what they're doing.

I wonder how the boys will feel if they watch a tape of the report when they're like 12?

They are not just observing. They're dissecting and commenting in the child's presence. How can that not have an effect?

Parents should teach their kids the basic facts of life and then BUTT OUT of their sexual development.

[serryjw]

24. Have to disagree

on the reasearch. I don't see anyone butting in. The mother is allowing the child to be himself and he will determine if he is straight, gay or transsexual not a news show

[tishaLA]

7. Whatever the "other side" wants is immaterial

to this kind of pseudoscience. As I discovered last night when I was looking up some of the arguments made on 60 Minutes, the show actually misrepresents what Berkeley's Dr. Breedlove (hafta love the name) has said in his research.

Could there be a genetic component to sexual orientation? Sure. But sexuality is too complex, too varied, too historically and socially specific, too narrative, etc. to be reduced to biologism in this way. (There are several good posts in the LGBT forum about the segment, too.)

I found the distinctions wholly arbitrary: why did the report implicitly endorse the idea that the one twin might be gay instead of transsexual? Is it because genitalia instead of gender constitutes our primary way of understanding sexuality (and has for the past 100 years)? And what did the rat experiment purport to explain....way back in 1986?

It was just absurd and it reminded me of reading "race science" books from the 19th century.

[Yollam]

9. If anything, this seems to be trying to disprove the genetic component...

...after all, the twins are genetically IDENTICAL, and yet of different "orientatons" (if you can ascribe such a thing to a child)))

To me, the right would easily be able to spin this into "See! It's a choice!"


Personally, I think there is often a genetic component, but there is often an element of choice (being bisexual, I was forced to make a choice).

WHat should be emphasized is that nature or nurture is irrelevant - homosexuality is natural and normal for some people -it can be observed in nature. Trying to prove that it's genetic seems to mostly be a way to try and gain the approval of religious types because "God made us this way"

But shouldn't need the approval of religious types - they don't know crap anyway!

I would NEVER belong to a church that didn't accept me as I am, 100%.

[serryjw]

11. I said in my original post

that i thought the child was going to be transgender. He really loved and identified with girl things. It would be great to follow this for 10 years and see what happens. This is research. I agree that it was lazy/easier for the producer to talk about being gay instead of transsexual. I bet $100 that he will be. This was not just preferences that he will grow out of...he had no interest in boy things.The 'gay twin' looked more like a girl. NOW this is not gay bashing. We may find out in years that there is a hormonal change in the womb that creates the gay or transsexual.

[tishaLA]

14. Re: hormonal changes

That's what the purveyors of pseudoscience want you to believe--that there can ultimately be a scientific "explanation" for variations in sexual expression. But these arguments are still formed around a particular construction of sexuality rooted in the Victorian era: the binary relationship between hetero- and homosexual, between masculine and feminine, between normative and deviant.

Until scientists are willing to take the next step and perform a meta-critique that involves their assumptions about how sexual and gender identities are constructed, they are doomed to fail and they will continue to produce works that reinforce foolish stereotypes (oh! He appears feminine so he must be gay!)

[serryjw]

18. No one wwould have any problem with research if it

was on any other subject matter. There is no pseudoscience in trying to watch and see if we can determine early in life whom is going to be gay or transexual. Since the days of Christine Jorgensen kids have been saying in their young lives that they KNOW that they should be the other gender.

What the heck is sexual expression. Is that orientation or preference? You can ONLY have ONE orientation, you can have breathe of preferences from straight to bi to gay.

[tishaLA]

20. Apparently you're not interested in

what the 60 Minutes piece actually said. It had nothing to do with transgenderism and instead offered a voluntaristic account of the relationship between childhood gender expression (there's that "expression" word again) and future sexual orientation.

And yes, many people do care a great deal about scientific research (and perform active critiques of it) from a variety of perspectives. Feminist scientists often do feminist critiques of science, for one easy example.

[serryjw]

21. Yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Scientists are trying to determine if early behavior is a determination for future orienation...you have a problem with this? I said 3X times that the article/show said nothing about transgenderism and that would have been more accurate.

[tishaLA]

25. Yes, I have a problem with it

As I said above, sexuality is too contingent to be reduced to mere biologism. Besides that, the studies they cited in the 60 Minutes piece all collapsed into themselves.

It was foolish. While trying to convince viewers about the "genetic" basis of sexual orientation, it demonstrated the project's own impossibility.

[serryjw]

26. The show said just the opposite

that there is no correlation between rearing or genetics..that is NOT the same as what may have happened in the womb at moment of conception or in the 9 months of pregnancy.

sexuality is too contingent to be reduced to mere biologism..have no idea what this means???

[tishaLA]

27. The show followed the biologocal argument...

precisely. For example,

Psychologists used to believe homosexuality was caused by nurture — namely overbearing mothers and distant fathers —but that theory has been disproved. Today, scientists are looking at genes, environment, brain structure and hormones. There is one area of consensus: that homosexuality involves more than just sexual behavior; it’s physiological. ...

If the differences were already apparent in childhood, that would point to an early, perhaps even genetic origin. ...

There are many more questions at this point than answers, but the scientists 60 Minutes spoke to are increasingly convinced that genes, hormones, or both — that something is happening to determine sexual orientation before birth.

[serryjw]

28. NOW are we talking about homosexuality

like was expressed on the show OR the specific child that I believe is not gay but will be a transsexual?

that homosexuality involves more than just sexual behavior; it’s physiological. ... That certainly is true..but we don't yet know how. IF it was JUST behavior it could be changed at will

If the differences were already apparent in childhood, that would point to an early, perhaps even genetic origin. ... again, we can't lump the reasons for homosexuality or bisexuality into the same conversation with transsexuals

If the differences were already apparent in childhood, that would point to an early, perhaps even genetic origin. ...THEY made the mistake of talking about orientation and preference in the same conversation...they simply are not the same

[tishaLA]

29. Please talk to yourself instead of me

You alternately profess and demonstrate that you don't understand what I have written, so I am moving on from this. Happily in the LGBT forum here they managed to have a successful discussion about the report's pseudoscience, known in the thread's headline as "Nature vs. Nurture."

Peace.

[KurtNYC]

19. Agree with all that plus

they made no attempt to put this "research" into the context of other research; for example Kinsey. Kinsey interviewed 17,000 people and documented a continuum of sexuality from exclusively heterosexual to exclusively homosexual. From this they generated a 7 point scale and essentially made out most people to be bi-sexually attracted to varying degrees.

They seemed to ignore that and other large studies to pander to what most people's perceptions of what gay is. eg. that effeminate = gay. I think like what most of what makes up TV news, if they have sensational footage they will use it. Sadly, enlightening people seems to take a backseat to pandering entertainment.

[Triana]

16. Steven Pinker

http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/articles/index.html

Has done many controversial articles, talks, and books about this nature vs nurture phenom. Fascinating reading (well, for me anyway). Besides that he is easy on the eyes, ladies!

[theHandpuppet]

17. The homophobes will use either to bolster their arguments

Check out this example:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x655915

[Odin2005]

23. I hate it when the Media use the phrase "nature vs. nurture".

Behavior and personality are caused by both. The only people still arguing over the subject are people with an ideological ax to grnd. The all-Nature people tend to be racists and bigots while the all-Nurture people tend to be Marxist-Lenists sociologists who think they can create Utopia with social engineering.