Those who know rabid neocons PLEASE help with future counter points.......

[Minnesota Libra]

.....allow me to set this scene before I present the issue at hand. I live in an apartment building that mostly has political Independents to Liberals. There are, however, a few rabid neocons who like most all other neocons focus strictly on the abortion issue. From my way of thinking this is hypocritical as hell. A few days ago I was talking to one such rabid neocon and the conversation went like this.........

Woman: I am saved by the blood of the lamb and I pray for our President all the time. I love our President because he is against abortion.

Me: What do you feel about what is going on in Iraq and the torture that has gone on in Guantanamo?

Woman: Our President is bringing them the love of the lamb and giving them democracy.

Me: What about our own democracy that is being torn to shreds? What do you feel about killing in general?

Woman: Oh, the Ten Commandments say not to kill.

Me: Then how does your political beliefs and your religious beliefs justify being against abortion but being for a preemptive war? A war that so far has killed 1700 of our own young people and destroyed an entire country for WMD that didn't even exist?

Woman: Oh, we are bringing them democracy and freedom from Saddam?

Me: Ok, how do you religiously justify spying on our own citizens without a court order and in doing so violating our own Constitution?

Woman: Well, if people have nothing to hide it won't matter?

Me: Well, I have nothing what so ever to hide but my life is no one else's business but my own. So in affect what you're saying is you don't care that our forefathers who fought and died for our Constitutional and civil rights died in vain?

Woman: I have to go now.

How could I have handled that better and made her question her own political and religious beliefs in relation to what Bush is doing?? I obviously ran her off and that was definitely not my intention. Help me out here, I want to be ready for this woman the next time and others like her. I want to leave her speechless with something that will make her question Bush.:bounce:

[Roland99]

1. "I have to go now."....EXCELLENT! Cowards ALWAYS run and hide.

[BlackVelvet04]

2. You might try asking her

where in the Bible she finds when life begins. The old testament makes it plain that the life of the mother is of more value than the life of a fetus.

What makes her think abortion is murder?

[Minnesota Libra]

8. Good idea - thanks!! nt

[Berry Cool]

3. How do you know you haven't made her question him already?

Sometimes merely being challenged by someone who questions their beliefs will start people's wheels turning...even if they don't show it and appear to "have an answer for everything."

This woman may indeed have seemed to have an answer for everything...but her "I have to go now" shows that she was uncomfortable continuing to talk to you and did not really and truly have all the answers.

Maybe you really were starting to get her to think...how do I reconcile my belief in Jesus Christ with torture, with lies, with war, with invasion of privacy? She may not have seemed to have been bothered, but maybe she was.

Then again...if she really and truly seemed steadfast in her beliefs and to think that her replies answered all your questions and justified everything she felt was true, I'd say, don't waste your time. People like that will never change. The fertile ground for planting seeds of doubt is in the places where people parrot back an explanation or a justification to you over and over again, but you can tell even they realize what they're saying is contradictory and makes no sense. It's those people--those who sense that their values and their political beliefs are not in sync--who can be gently persuaded that maybe, just maybe, they have been backing the wrong guy.

[H2O Man]

4. "neocon"

does not equate with a specific religious group. It sounds like you are dealing with a fundie, which tends to be distinct from a neocon.

[BlueManDude]

5. sounds like Fundies rather than Neo-Cons

From what I understand Neo Cons were mostly former liberal lefty types who switched allegiance based mainly on the Cold War. Their primary focus was a "tougher" US policy toward the Soviet Union. Many were former Dems who were attracted to Reagans's bellicosity toward the Commies. After the Cold War eneded they turned their focus to the Middle East with Iraq being target number 1 long before 9/11. There is IMO an uneasy alliance between the Fundies and the Neo Cons since many of the Neo Cons are jews and surely know deep down inside that the Fundies ultimately have no respect for any faith other than their own and revere Israel merely as a piece of turf where Christ will return and the jews will either convert or die. Yet for the time being they join hands.

[Warpy]

6. I've found the one thing that will do that

"I'm very angry over the way the new budget slashes services for the poor, the elderly and the handicapped, all to pay for WAR!"

"(Talking point, poious horseshit, blah blah blah)" (you know the speech)

"That is the most UNCHRISTIAN thing I've ever heard of!"

"Butbutbutbut what do you mean?"

"(insert appropriate bible verse here, or just the Golden Rule will do)" and then you walk away after piercing them with a look of sheer disgust.

[Minnesota Libra]

7. Great idea - forget the usual talking points - use religion/Bible........

.....against them. Cool idea, why didn't I think of this before?:freak: Thanks for the idea.

[bluemarkers]

9. you did good :)

Bush bots who used to talke to me about politics even 6 months ago, do not engage me anymore. If fact at church someone said to me, "something has got to change". I broke my jaw when it hit the floor. :)

things are changing. but people never like to think they have been misled.

[salin]

10. We have been discussion some themes in another thread

you might find some of the angles helpful. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=690172&mesg_id=690172

[Minnesota Libra]

11. Cool got it - thanks nt

[BlackVelvet04]

12. Consider these scriptures when discussing abortion:

"If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. 23 But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise." Ex. 21:22-25


"For the life of the flesh is in the blood...for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul"(Lev17:11)

So, when does life begin? When there is a full circulatory system? But isn't the fetus' circulatory system the mothers? " * Through the blood vessels in the umbilical cord, the fetus receives all the necessary nutrition, oxygen, and life support from the mother through the placenta.

* Waste products and carbon dioxide from the fetus are sent back through the umbilical cord and placenta to the mother's circulation to be eliminated.

Blood from the mother enters the fetus through the vein in the umbilical cord. "

So, the blood of the fetus is actually the mothers, is it not?


Or does life begin with the first breath? "And the LORD God...breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul". (Gen 2: 7)


NOBODY knows for sure when life begins, so to call abortion murder is nothing but an opinion based on nothing but emotion.

The abortion issue must be reframed....we have allowed the right to force us into the corner of justifying taking life, when in fact nobody knows for sure just when life begins. So my question to the rightwingers is ALWAYS how do you KNOW when life begins?

[Minnesota Libra]

14. THANKS FOR THE IDEAS - I'll be ready for her next time...nt

[RB TexLa]

17. And the fact that the church used to only excommunicate people

for an abortion after "quickening," before that is was just a normal sin, and as she well knows we are all sinners.

My favorite church sign that you see from time to time: "This is a segregated church Sinners Only"

[johnnie]

13. I think you did fine

But honestly, I have learned that people like this are a waste of time and energy. They are so lost in their twisted ideology that I don't think there is any way they will ever accept truth.

I know some people like this and I don't even discuss politics with them any longer. I am all for personal spirituality, but once a person states they are all for the war but recites "Thou shall not kill", then I know it is a waste of my breath to go any further.

That's just me though. Maybe a collection of 8x10 color photos of the people of Iraq laying in their body parts covered in blood that we have "saved" from Saddam slipped under her door with a note saying "Thou shall not kill" on them might be a good idea. :shrug:

[salin]

15. Keep in mind that some of that now 60+ % that think bush is doing

a lousy job - were folks, who like this lady, blindly followed bush.

I view it as an exercise of planting seeds for later thought - because there comes a time when many grow too uncomfortable with the cognitive dissonance caused between what they see in the reality of their own life, vs the fake reality projected by Bush - and when that point is reached... suddenly some of those seeds earlier planted become points of contemplation, then later a shift in overall perspective.

[johnnie]

18. That's true. And I agree with "planting the seeds"

After reading the OP though, this woman seemed way over the top. If a person is still that overjoyed at the massacre in Iraq after three years, then it just seems to me that they are so disillusioned that a few minutes of discussion is not worth my time. If you start talking and they seem to be listening, then go for it, but if after a few minutes they throw every fundie cliche' at you, it's best to walk away in my opinion.

To me, these people are like raving alcoholics, they won't seek help until they hit rock bottom and no amount of talking to them will help until they want help. Then you can help them and support them once they see the light.


I'm not saying that people shouldn't take the time to talk with these people, I'm just relaying my personal opinion on it.

[salin]

19. understood... it really can feel like

hitting one's head against a board with nails in it.

[RB TexLa]

16. Jeez

Woman: I am saved by the blood of the lamb and I pray for our President all the time. I love our President because he is against abortion.

Ask her to show you were B*** has ever said he wants abortion to be against the law, if he's said it it's hard to find it.

And ask her "so if I call your anti-abortion group's meeting on the phone and say you are nice people and I think we should respect life" you will vote for me too even though I have said nothing to actually bind me to support your position?


Woman: Oh, the Ten Commandments say not to kill.

Tell her to learn the Commandments, it says you shouldn't murder, not kill. There is no probation against killing.


Woman: Well, if people have nothing to hide it won't matter?

This is the best one, just start going through her purse.