Creationism... HOW embarrassing!

[msatty99]

Can you imagine how this looks to people in Tokyo, London, Berlin and
Paris? When they hear that in the USA it is actually a subject of debate
whether or not God snapped his fingers and 'poof' created everything
or whether we should teach the 'theory' of evolution.

They must be laughing their a$$es off. I can just hear some
one saying, "This theory of creationism, do you think it cultivates
the rigorous critical thinking habit needed for scientific and cultural
achievement?"

It makes me feel sorry for the USA.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

1. 6 yrs of anti-science can do a lot of harm. As we now see.

[msatty99]

4. Yes, it allows you to blissfully ignore little things like Global Warming.

Hell, talk to a science ficture writer...that's a good place for
info...Ignore state sized slabs of the Arctic falling away.

That weird weather? just an anomaly (hey congrats on using a 'big' word
dude!)

Yeah, Adam and Eve and the Snake....Hell YEAH

[petronius]

13. It's the same line of reasoning in both cases:

"Biology? Too complex - God did it..."

"Climate? Too complex - we can't understand it and therefore human actions can't change it."

This anti-intellectual approach really appeals to lazy people, IMO; it takes a lot of effort to really get a grasp of scientific topics - it's far easier to conclude that it's all 'unknowable' and that therefore scientific experts are self-deluded and/or lying to further an agenda...

[ForrestGump]

40. It's been a LOT longer than six years

I'd guess 25, at least.

[BlueEyedSon]

2. We are the world's richest (but not for long!) third-world country....

[noahmijo]

3. Yea always gets me how neocons always talk about how "them japs own us"

and they get red whenever you bring up the Chinese and they a system where they automatically attempt to convince you that Clinton tried to sell the Chinese nukes to bomb America so he could have his affair.


Meantime all of that is bullshit but what is true is that although the labor practices in China are brutal as are most of the government practices one thing they do have on their side is the fact they are concerned with production, staying on top, being competitive, science, ect, and although their ways of actually creating output are for the most part vile and sick, the point is they are focused on REALITY while America focuses on worship of the supernatural.

Point being that is China is "screwing us" because your stupid dumbass is more focused on football and Jesus The White.*

*This is what I would say to a freeper not the op.

[deadparrot]

5. Well, according to this link,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4648598.stm

there are a lot of idiots in the UK as well. Don't get me wrong, America is *far* behind the learning curve when it comes to science, but ignorance is everywhere.

[tenshi816]

73. I take that survey with a grain of salt.

For one thing, ID is already taught here as part of the required Religious Education curriculum, and as long as it stays there and out of science classes no one's going to have a problem with it (but I'm watching 'em just in case!).

Contrary to what a lot of people think, there are are lot of Christians in the UK, but unlike the more extreme fundies in the States, they by and large don't have a problem with the idea of evolution, although I'm sure there are a tiny few who do.

Even my 9-year old has been taught in his Catholic school that much of the Bible is metaphorical and that while Catholic doctrine teaches that God made the world, it doesn't teach that it was done in six 24-hour days and God went on a picnic on the 7th, or that God made Adam from clay. It's been taught in such a way that it's helped my son understand what a metaphor is, which I'm pleased about.

One thing I would like to point out for informational purposes is to explain something that's different in the UK than in the USA: in the UK, it's required by the government that all children attending UK schools must have religious education throughout. In defense of that, it's not just Christianity that's taught. Over the last several years, both my sons have learned a lot about Islam, Judaism, Buddhism and Hinduism. Their religious education has also covered the creation myths of many of the world's cultures, from the Native Americans and Australian aborigines, to Africa, China, Scandinavia and other places I can't remember just now. They've been exposed to a wide variety of viewpoints and I believe it's been good for them to see that there is more than one road to travel.

[timtom]

6. I find your provincialism embarrassing.

I'm certain that all the nonreligious people in Japan...oops! They're Shinto or Buddhist.

Well, then all the atheists of UK...wait a minute! They're Church of England or Catholic.

All right, then. All the secular humanists of Germany...oh, no! Catholic and Lutheran!

But I'm sure that all of them are laughing at their own perceptions of how the world began. I'm sure that the majority of the world is in line with your particular "scientific" agenda.

Get frikkin' real!

Of all the problems that the world faces, I'm really certain that the most important ones are the cessation of war, torture, the cynical abuses of power that have dogged us for millenia.

Views of how the world came into existence are third or fourth tier concerns at best!

[msatty99]

7. Science based thought is provincial...hmmm

That is a new idea for me. Very instructive nathan.

[timtom]

8. I assume, then

that you are a scientist and have done your own research.

And I am sure that NEVER has any scientific research ever been shown to be spurious.

And I am somewhat disappointed that you missed the point of the "provincialism" tag.

You made the assumption that all Europeans and all the other nations you mentioned are lockstep with your worldview. Your provincialism lies in the fact that you sidestep the fact that you ignore the religious traditions of all other cultures, many of which are state-mandated. Conservatively 85% of these state-mandated religions have, ipso facto, a view on "how it all started." I am sure that a truly global person would include your view as well (scientific or not).

[mondo joe]

24. Of course other cultures have religious traditions - but that doesn't

mean they impose them on science.

[donco6]

11. I'm confused.

So, if something is a "third or fourth tier concern" it's not worthy of mentioning? We should restrict ourselves to talking about "war, torture, the cynical abuses of power . . . "?

:shrug:

[oldcoot]

14. Atheists are not the only ones who support teaching evolution

Not all religious people oppose the teaching of evolution. For example, I have met many Christians who not only favor teaching evolution but also reject creationism. I have even had some of these individuals tell me that they were embarrassed by the creationists.

As for the Buddhists and Shintos, I am unaware of any opposition from either of these two groups to the teaching of evolution. Perhaps you could provide a link that provides evidence to the contrary.

I do agree that war, torture, and the cynical abuses of power are major issues. One current example of a cynical abuse of power is politicians insisting that intelligent design should be taught in the schools at the expense of American children in order to gain votes from conservative fundamentalists.

[timtom]

16. My post is not about creationism vs. evolution, per se.

It is about the assumption of a particular predominant world view. There is none. Every nation has its creationists and non-creationists. It is arrogant to assume, for example, that the people in Tokyo are "laughing their a$$es off" at the US for one particular view.

My post is not about what nations may or may not oppose concerning creationism or evolution.

It is about assumptions.

If I disagree with creationism, and posit that the entire world (who is obviously in agreement with my philosophy) is laughing at the US for having this debate, I have merely voiced an opinion -- and not a well-thought one, at that.

(I'm really cheating, here. I agree with your perception of the underlying political motivation for this issue. But that's not what the original post said. The original post mocked a particular point of view and implied that the US is the only nation entertaining this view. The original post then attempted to link the cavalier opinion of one system with critical thinking.

By its very dismissiveness this is a stellar example of non-critical thinking.

[msatty99]

21. You are right...I am mocking the 'fairy tale' of creationism.

I would also mock a person or a political movement that
held it near and dear as a tenent of their belief and political
system that the world is flat...that the moon gave off its own
light.

That makes me a provincial arrogant ass ... ok Nathan..

I guess you are 'proud' that we have just as much ignorance in the
USA as those dern Brits...

That sure is cosmopolitan of you.

[mondo joe]

23. Replacing secular thought with religion is one of our greatest problems.

Freedom only flourishes with enlightenment.

[Clark2008]

30. You know, you can be religious AND enlightened.

I view the Bible as a series of allegories, but maintain the message of Jesus' words regarding peace, love and his Divinity.

People who think it's all one way or the other are more provential in my book.

[mondo joe]

42. That's why I said "REPLACING" secular thought.

You want allegory and whatever, it's fine.

You want to replace science and free inquiry with doctrine, that's something else.

[Cats Against Frist]

69. If you view it as a series of allegories, but you do not

believe that "Jesus on the Cross" is flesh and blood, you are not religious. You like stories, parables and allegories. A little Aesop would do you just as well.

[Cats Against Frist]

68. Except for the fact that myth and superstition and "absolutes"

that are based on some kind of divine authority, ARE, in fact, the primary reasons why we're in this situation, today. The Enlightenment was supposed to nip it in the bud, but, it didn't work. What's important is that you can't make insane people think rational thoughts. The people in Japan DON'T REALLY BELIEVE that the Shinto god created Japan, and all that bullshit. Plus, most of the people in Europe are Secular Humanists -- and I believe they did a poll on evolution, in England, and, in fact, they WERE laughing at us.

[Arugula Latte]

83. Ignorance trumping science is a first-tier concern to me.

Dress it up how you wish -- that a large segment of our population believes in a creation myth where the Earth was literally created in seven days and a woman was made out of a man's rib IS embarrassing. Fundamentalism in religion breeds pure ignorance and idiocy. It harms our country in many ways.

[rman]

84. Religion is a power, it to gets abused.

Quite a lot in fact.

And this is not about "Views of how the world came into existence", it is not even about how life came into existence, it is about how life evolves. More broadly it is about science, and the tools and insights that science provides can not only be abused but also can be used to alleviate many of the problems that you describe.

[TreasonousBastard]

9. I'm thinking back to the 50s and 60s...

when I was growing up and the Soviets sending Sputnik up scared the shit out of us so much we had Federal science education programs up the ass. My Lutheran high school wouldn't teach evolution in biology, but gladly accepted the installation of very well equipped biology, physics, and chemistry labs thanks to gummint largesse.

My Lutheran church was conservative, but was adamant about the separation of church and state, too. Didn't want the gummint sticking its nose into our beliefs and teachings. The deal was simple-- we didn't tell the gummint what to believe, and they didn't tell us.

Except for the first chapter in the bio text, the school also completely separated education from religion, and the science courses were almost college level. Even in bio class, we were told that evolution wouldn't be taught, but we could happily read about it on our own and make up our own minds. They didn't like some of us thinking the whole creation thing was a myth, but they didn't give us a hard time over it, either. Science education ultimately was not seen as a religious or church/state issue.

There are pockets of excellence still out there in both public and private schools, but the national will to excel seems to be clouded in a haze of religious revival.

[oldcoot]

10. The Bottom Line is that We are Hurting the Next Generation

In reality, if we are concerned about educating future generations we should not be teaching them a pseudo-science with very little support in the scientific community. Students who are taught that creationism is just as valid as evolution are in for a nasty surprise if they choose to attend a college or university because most of their biology professors will probably tell them that creationism is not scientific. I also do not think that it is a good idea to teach future biologists and medical researchers creationism if the United States wishes to remain competitive with the rest of the world in the biological sciences and research.

[pitohui]

12. it is embarrassing

however when i have traveled to those cities i quickly realized that no one assumes that you, the actual american who cares enough to travel, is one of the doofuses who really believes in creationist nonsense

you don't have to worry abt being embarrassed, every country has its yahoos, ours just get more press

[Kellanved]

15. yes and no

It looks funny, but that is largely because there is no way for most people in Europe to directly influence the curriculum of their local High Schools. A headline like "School introduces creationism" looks a lot more official to European eyes, than it actually is.

Also, conservative politicians push for creationism over here as well.

[Hamlette]

17. It is not just the US, take a look at polls in the UK

Four out of 10 people in the UK think that religious alternatives to Darwin's theory of evolution should be taught as science in schools, according to a BBC poll.

Four out of 10 people in the UK think that religious alternatives to Darwin's theory of evolution should be taught as science in schools, according to a BBC poll.

From Wikipedia:

In the United Kingdom a 2006 poll on the "origin and development of life" asked participants to choose between three different perspectives on the origin of life: 22% chose creationism, 17% opted for intelligent design, 48% selected evolution theory and the rest did not know. The poll had the effect of reinforcing a culture war false dichotomy on the subject in an attempt by the news organization to demonstrate the extent of the controversy. As the poll lacked nuanced survey techniques and equivocated on origin definitions as well as forced participants to make choices as though there were only three options, its results do not necessarily indicate the views of the general public concerning mainstream science or religious alternatives.

(edited to add the quote from Wikipedia)

[BlooInBloo]

25. Do the very foundations of the British system of govt....

... rest partly upon a strong separation between church and state?

If not, then the example is largely irrelevant.

[Nomen Tuum]

18. Jesus Lysenkoism is out of control in the NEW CCCP

Just as Lysenkoism brought down the old CCCP, Jesus Lysenkoism is bringing down the new CCCP

CCCP= Conservative Commonwealth of Christian Pentecostals

[frogmarch]

19. I put

Creationists in the same category as flat-earthers.

And I've yet to meet a Christian who does accept organic evolution as fact without believing that God was pulling the strings and making it happen. The same may, or may not be, true about evolution-believing followers of other religions. I don't know, nor do I don't know if all Christians who believe in evolution think God is directing it. I just haven't met any who don't.

[opihimoimoi]

20. Our American Fanatical Culture is Stifling our Advancement

History ...SHOWS/IS EVIDENCE/CONFIRMS/ the abvove

Every Fanatical Gov't in the Past....Resulted in Counter Productive OUTPUT....

[Alamom]

22. Has this been changed?

Bill of Rights
Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

Or does it apply only to the government, one of the parties, certain groups, you who would restrict another person's freedoms?


Do we pick and choose (now) what we like about our country's Constitution and trash the rest along with millions of people who exercise this right. (Sounds like the other party)

Trash Millions of people who vote ?

I may not agree with what anyone has posted on this thread, but as far as Religious Beliefs, I respect your right to believe whatever you choose and do not call you an embarrassment for doing so.
It is your right.

How dare any American who supports our Constitutional Rights exclude the First One and publish that they are embarrassed by this Great Work by Great Men.

I have believed most members of the Democratic Party would defend every last word, regardless of their personal beliefs.


I guess not..............

Millions of people around the world believe in God or other supernatural beings and always will.
Get over it. In most countries, it's their right.

[Lolivia]

34. The constitution does only apply to the government.

Government cannot restrict the right to belief in religion, nor can the government establish a religion. The bill of rights does not apply to private actions by private citizens.

Of course people can believe whatever they want to, but I am absolutely embarrassed by people who try to force illogical and anti-scientific beliefs on others. It is one thing to personally subscribe to a creation myth, it is quite another to try to replace valid science in public schools with your version of that myth. Attempts to do so, incidently, violate the establishment clause of the First Amendment because teaching christian myths in public schools would be establishing chritianity as a government religion. Saying you are embarrassed by those attempts does not violate the constitution.

[Alamom]

38. I understand the Bill of Rights .......

COMPLETELY and the legalities of teaching or not teaching religion in public schools.

My family includes several teachers and a professor. None of which break the law regarding religious teaching.

My post was regarding TOLERANCE of other peoples's beliefs, Americans being "embarrassed" by our Freedoms and to repeat, Americans defending every word of our Constitution.
These posts are not illegal by individual citizens, but they reek of intolerance.

Tolerance would be, not posting phrases such as Christian Myths.

I am embarrassed that anyone would make this remark in a forum with members who are Christians with varied beliefs.

If this is acceptable, then will phrases such as Jewish myths, Muslim myths, Pagan myths, Gay & Lesbian myths, Abortion myths, Discrimination myths, Secular myths, Capital Punishment myths, etc., be tolerated as well as we become more and more angry with our government and turn on each other........ tolerance of many different people is our only hope out of this mess.

I think it will take all of us and there will always be religious beliefs among people who vote.
I don't believe now is the time to call anyone an embarrassment, stupid and alienate people from this party regardless of what they believe on a personal level.


If you believe there are enough secular votes out there to win anything, go for it. I don't and my personal beliefs can take a back seat until we get back some control of our country.

Maybe we should have all evolved or been created like this and there would be no need for...............anything, really. We would all just follow whoever is in front.



:7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7 :7

[Lolivia]

41. Then you understand my post

and the OP were not talking about believing or not believing in christianity - the posts referred to the movement to get creationism into schools. The free exercise clause is not implicated here - but the establishment clause is. It is unconstitutional to teach creationism in schools because that would establish christianity as a government sanctioned religion. I do not need to "tolerate" people trying to undermine the constitution - nor does any other American. To repeat: this is not about tolerating people's individual religious beliefs. This is about defending against religion's unconstitutional incursion into government. It is not "defending every word of the constitution" to try to supplant science with religion in schools. Once again, I do not and will not tolerate such unconstitutional actions.

On using the phrase "creation myth": from www.websters.com:

"myth ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mth)
n.

A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society: the myth of Eros and Psyche; a creation myth."


I'm sorry that it embarrasses you when posters use the english language correctly. It is not intolerant to correctly characterize an aspect of religion. And yes, all religions have their own creation myths, so it would be acceptable to use the phrase "jewish myth," "muslim myth," or "navajo myth." It would be acceptable to use "capital punishment myth" if there was some sort of ancient capital punishment myth with supernatural beings to explain an aspect of the natural world, but that seems unlikely.

[Alamom]

43. I don't think you're getting mine. ( read what you wrote)

You posted the term "Christian" myth when referring to what is taught in schools. There are many involved in this forum. They are not myths. They are real.

Then you define creation myth?

To you, it may mean the same thing. To many, it does not.

My question on other forms of acceptable or non-acceptable labeling was directly related to this group.
People in any of these groups or those who oppose or support any of these issues most likely would not take kindly to being called a myth or myth supporter.

I am not embarrassed when posters use the English language properly. I prefer it.
I'm also a fan of reading comprehension.

The op made a statement of being embarrassed due to other countries reading, hearing or seeing debates on creationism in America.
Other countries which have for thousands of years (before us) believed in God, Gods, Devils, Demons and all sorts of "supernatural" beings. I doubt anyone is laughing at us due to any religious arguments as these have been going on around the world for eons and are understood by most people.

Other countries may be interested in other issues here, such as an idiot in charge.



Edit spelling.

[immoderate]

44. Are there Greek myths, Roman myths, Norse myths?

Or are those real too? Can they all be real when they are contradictory? Then what does "real" mean in the English language. I don't recall seeing "whatever you want it to mean" in the dictionary.

--IMM

[Alamom]

45. Greeks, Romans and Norsemen are real, I believe. n/t

[immoderate]

48. OK, it's a put on. I missed that.

--IMM

[Lolivia]

47. I was speaking directly about christian creation myths

In my first post, I talked about teaching creation myths in public schools, (which is what this thread is about) and the creation myth in question is the christian creation myth. The reference to the "christian myth" directly followed the reference to the creation myth in question. This entire thread is about the christian creation myth and teaching it in schools. I talked about teaching "christian myths" in schools because it is the christian creation myth that is at issue. No other established religion is trying to put their creation myths in schools. I never talked about any other aspect of christianity, or referred to any other aspect as a myth.


I, too, am a fan of reading comprehension. I'm not sure how else to explain the sentances to you so that they make sense.

What the OP said the world is laughing at is the movement in the US to replace science with christian creation myths in schools. As I have repeated in my previous two posts, the issue in question is not whether people believe those myths per se, but that they do not believe in science because of those myths, AND that they want to keep science out of schools in favor of the creation myths.

People may not take kindly to having their creation myths labeled as such, but that is what they are. The literal interpretation of the christian biblical creation myth has been disproven by evolution. It is not literally true. It is the christian creation myth. People may choose to take it literally, as is their right, but they have no business trying to teach it in schools.

[immoderate]

49. There is not much point in using reason with this person.

--IMM

[Lolivia]

50. Yeah, I'm realizing that

Is she joking? Or for real? Her posts are mildly incomprehensible, so it's hard to tell.

[immoderate]

52. Catch our exchange a few posts above.

The rules prevent me from characterizing. Maybe it's a premature April fool put on.

--IMM

[Lolivia]

Ah, yeah, it must be a put on

otherwise...wow.

[Alamom]

67. incomprehensible - failure to understand

Ok, try this.

My first post was about supporting and defending our Constitutional Rights and TOLERANCE of American people.
Not our political leaders who are idiots, are trying to do away with our rights everyday and use religion if it suits their cause.

Also, to be embarrassed by what is going on in our country in regard to creationism is your right, but the same argument & debates are going on in other countries and it is my right to tell you.
For students to question in a classroom could possibly be enlightening to them if they have been taught fallacies elsewhere. They may not all be as enlightened as the OP and other posters......

(i.e. I guess you are 'proud' that we have just as much ignorance in the
USA as those dern Brits...)

My second post was regarding the insertion of "Christian" in place of "Creation" when used with "myth."
Definitions:
cre·a·tion·ism n.
Belief in the literal interpretation of the account of the creation of the universe and of all living things related in the Bible.


Chris·tian adj.
Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings.
Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
Showing a loving concern for others; humane.
n.
One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.

Very B-R-O-A-D swipe using Christian instead of Creation that would include a lot of voting Americans.


Creationism or creation science, belief in the biblical account of the creation of the world as described in Genesis, a characteristic especially of fundamentalist Protestantism (see fundamentalism).


Fundamentalism, the belief in, and usually the strict adherence to, the basic or "fundamental" ideas of a system of thought .

Fundamentalist : a supporter of fundamentalism

Not all Christians are fundamentalist...just ask.

Interchanging Creation and Christian is inappropriate in this context. All Christians do not want religion taught in schools.

I assumed emphasizing "Christian" in this sentence would make it clear that I was speaking of people who belong to this forum and you were labeling everyone as a creationist. I assumed your comprehension would kick in at some point. I guess not.......

"You posted the term "Christian" myth when referring to what is taught in schools. There are many (added for clarity, Christians) involved in this forum. They are not myths. They are real."

Greeks, Romans and Noresmen are real people....myths evolve from most cultures, but most don't change their names because myths are associated with them.

Evolution is a Theory taught in public schools, institutions of higher learning and some private religious schools.

Creationism is a religious belief pushed (mostly) by fundementalist. Not taught, but possibly questioned by students, as it well should be if they do not understand what the hell it is and why it's involved in politics as it should not be.

Christians follow the teaching of Christ and (all) should not be confused with fundementalist who have agendas to upsurp the division of Church & State which we enjoy and is so far guranteed by our Constitution/ Bill of Rights.

Tolerance
Definition: open-mindedness
Antonyms: bias, disapproval, intolerance, narrow-mindedness, prejudice
Proclaimed by many, practiced by.....not so many.


So now, are my posts so incomprehensible or do you need further definitions.

One poster is embarrassed by a phenomenon that is going on in many countries, students who ask questions to learn and makes derogatory statements about our allies.

One poster seems to not understand there is a difference between Creationists and Christians. Also, labeling with broad swipes is inappropriate.

And one seems to be looking for an early April Fool's joke of which I do not have.


on edit:spelling

[heart of darkness]

81. With all due respect, you don't get it..

Your first post was factually incorrect..the 1st amendment is a limit on government action, not on personal action. In your next post you claim "complete knowledge" of the bill of rights, but it is clear from the post you still don't get it..again, THE FIRST AMENDMENT LIMITS GOVERNMENT ACTION. If people on this, or any, forum want to be "intolerant," that is their right.

Second, the point of the OP was that he/she thinks we should all be embarrassed by the fact that there are CHRISTIAN groups that want to supplant scientific teaching with religious dogma in public schools. That is unconstitutional and its embarrassing for a country that touts itself as such a marvelously enlightened place. The complaint is not about religion, but about parties trying to replace science with religion.

Third, it is obvious that Lolivia was referring to the christian creation myth when typing christian myth. As he/she stated, these groups are the only ones trying to replace scientific teaching with dogma in this country.

The only difference between "christian creation myth" and "christian myth" is that the second could also include any of the beliefs an individual would form based on the unsubstantiated text of the bible, teachings of christian leaders, etc. If I don't believe the teachings of Christianity, I am in no way obligated to treat such beliefs as anything more than fiction. The teachings of Christianity are a myth to people that don't believe them. Christian myth is not some sort of slander on christians. For some reason you seem incapable of separating being christian from the beliefs of christians (the christian myth). Same holds true for greeks, romans, etc.

Furthermore, the teaching of any "christian myth" in a public school would be a violation of the Constitution, which you should understand as you have a complete understanding of it. If someone wants their kids to learn about christianity, take them to church.

with regard to your statement: "One poster is embarrassed by a phenomenon that is going on in many countries, students who ask questions to learn and makes derogatory statements about our allies."

There are differences between how religion is used in this country and other democracies. Generally speaking, most of the people in other developed countries do a better job of keeping religious ideas out of the political discourse. In this country, there is a significant section of the right whose only purpose in politics is to keep these issues at the forefront of the debate. I would argue that this has less to do with their beliefs and more to do with political power (see What's a Matter with Kansas), but that is waaaaaay off the OP's topic.

with regard to: "One poster seems to not understand there is a difference between Creationists and Christians. Also, labeling with broad swipes is inappropriate."

You misinterpret the post on several fronts as detailed above..further, even if it was a broad swipe, it is appropriate to state that religious teaching has no place in public school.

HoD

[msatty99]

51. I am embarassed for my country when I know that

that other countries wouldn't allow creation myth to be taught
or even considered as a equally plausible alternative to the
science. Aren't you embarassed? Geesh.

[timtom]

82. The original poster did NOT

refer to "the movement to get creationism into schools."

The original poster expressed embarrassment that there would be any colloquy as to "whether or not God snapped his fingers and 'poof' created everything or whether we should teach the 'theory' of evolution."

A debate on this issue is not the same as a movement with an express agenda.

And the reason I'm so derisive of the original post is the underlying assumption that science has arrived at all the answers, when, in fact, we have merely swapped particle physics for Einsteinian relativity, which, in turn, was a passing away from Newtonian physics, which was a departure from Aristotleanism....you get the picture.

And we do not know now if our science may ever come full circle and bear out that which is considered myth today in a brand new light.

And, at no time have I stated which side of the argument I endorse, because both are wrong/right.

We enlightened ones need to get over our consummate arrogance and understand just how ignorant we all are.

And, yes that includes me.

[Cats Against Frist]

70. It's all myths, Alamom

And I'm going to give equal consideration to a person who believes in Creationism, and a person who believes that their morning toaster waffle suddenly started talking to them. And then I will give them the same diagnosis. There's no rational reason to believe otherwise. You gave the example that "lots of people believe in religion, get over it," but that argument is a logical fallacy called argumentum ad populum. Just because "a lot of people believe something," does not mean that it is true.

Being a true American is a)fighting for the separation of Church and State -- which both means that the state can't dictate religion, and religion can't dictate the state and b)being reasonably tolerant, meaning don't hurt anyone, or burn down their churches. Opinion, however, is part of that first amendment right, and I will excercise it to its fullest potential.

[Alamom]

71. Fair enough. But one question using your terms.....

Do you believe we can take back the WH & Congress without (some of) the myth believer's votes?


I agree completely with your second paragraph.
Also, I am not promoting truth of anything other than we have to find eough common ground with enough people to get this country back on it's feet or we are "all" doomed and not by any god, but by man and his corruptness & greed. Some of these people will be believers in their truths, not yours or mine.

It is my opinion that now is not the time to alienate anyone who would vote against the party in charge. That's the only reason I'm here and work towards this end.

[mondo joe]

46. Sorry but who exactly is violating the bill of rights by being embarassed

by creationist liars?

[Kerrytravelers]

86. It hasn't really been changed, just not really followed so much anymore.

I think King George would rather use it as toilet paper than the Foundations of America.

I dunno. :shrug: Just a thought. :)

[Warren DeMontague]

90. And most of those millions of people manage to reconcile their beliefs

with proven scientific FACT.

The whackos who honestly believe that the Earth is 6,000 years old and dinosaurs were on "Noah's Ark" are, I'm sorry, fucked in the head. Yes, that's their right, but it's also my right to call a spade a spade vis a vis proven truths about REALITY... and to fight to keep that anti-intellectual garbage far and away from my kids' public school science classes.

And if you honestly believe that "we" (the Democratic Party) could somehow "court" the anti-science, Creationist pinhead vote if only we (posters here on DU) would "stop making fun of them", much less that they constitute any kind of a mandate in this country, I would respectfully submit that you need to get out more.

[genie_weenie]

26. Most IDers would dismiss your dismissal

of their "theory". The real problem is that the ID proponents don't even worry about trying to make ID a science. They have skipped that part and taken it directly to the courts and public.



"The question is this— Is man an ape or an angel? My Lord, I am on the side of the apes." changed from the Disraeli quote...

[Warren DeMontague]

27. Yeah, but think of the big bucks ridicule-minded tourists may bring to

say, Ohio:


http://www.answersingenesis.org/museum/

[Kerrytravelers]

88. Now, here is an Intelligent Design hottie!

I gots to get me some of dat.




Thanks impeachdubya. I shall never recover from seeing this:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/museum/

[Warren DeMontague]

89. I know. I thought the "Dr. Zaius" mutton chops were a nice, ironic touch.

:woohoo:

[ladjf]

28. I have four college degrees and I can report that I do not recall

any instance, in any class. that the theory of Evolution was ever considered to be anything other than the most likely description of how life evolved on Earth. I also don't recall that any other theories of how life developed were discussed or debated. My geology professors most definitely didn't describe the history of the Earth in terms of thousands of years. It was always billions of years.

[Lolivia]

31. In every biology class I've ever taken

that discussed evolution, we had to take time out of class to address the whole creationism thing. I had professors that had to explain to the students that when they took tests, they were required to actually provide answers regarding evolution. They could not just write in that god made everything.

It was disgusting that time had to be spent in a SCIENCE CLASS telling the students that we would be talking about SCIENCE and would be tested on SCIENCE and they would have to give SCIENTIFIC answers in order to get credit. So even though the profs didn't want to discuss creationism (as no real scientist would) it still rears its ugly head in classrooms.

Strangely enough, those same students had no problem accepting the rest of biology, chemistry, or medicine, even though the exact same scientific method that led to understanding evolution also gave us everything we know about those aspects of science.

[msatty99]

33. This is what I am talking about

it is just plain embarassing that we have to even discuss this
as if it is a plausible alternative.

[Lolivia]

35. I hear you

Being forced by circumstance to take time out of a science class to discuss religion is embarrassing.

[ladjf]

58. My collegiate education took place 40 years ago. You can

see that we are retrogressing with regard to the evolution vs creationism issues.

However, I don't think there is anything to worry about. In the first place, Creationism is not even a science. It's a theological "notion". There is no way that a full curriculum of Creationism could be taught as a science at any reputable college. Creationism is a idealogical fad whose time will pass rather quickly. But, for awhile, there will be students who will be deprived of a full education by this distraction.

Wise people don't base their lives on "notions".

[Minnesota Libra]

29. Renamed "Intelligent Design" to appear more inclusive nt

[electron_blue]

32. Yeah, you're right. It is embarrassing

[walldude]

36. Well the good news is I went to my local Planetarium

today to see a new show on Black Holes. The presentation didn't even attempt to circumvent science to appease anyone. It touched on the Big Bang, on the billions of years it took for the earth to form, and the fact that at the center of every galaxy lies a Black Hole. Great scientific presentation. So we're not all buying into the fairy tale of creationism.

[msatty99]

37. Some people seem to think I am slamming religion

or belief in God.

I don't intend that. I believe in God. I just think
God is not a fairytale wizard that waves a magic wand
and conjured a full blown world into existence.

I AM embarassed that in the USA, supposedly the 'greatest nation
on earth' we still have, on a routine basis, people in
public life trying to shove stupid fairytales down our throat
as a plausible alternative to science. I can't help thinking
that other, competing, nations, must think this
is almost unbelievable. At the same time, they must
shudder to think the same nation has such a huge military.

[ScreamingMeemie]

55. And I don't think many people who read the Bible think that way either.

:shrug:

[RB TexLa]

61. I don't think so either

and I have a storg faith in God. I do think students should be taught about religions in an academic manner, can't argue it's impact on history and the world, and certainly current debates should also be discussed in an academic manner. But things belong in their proper classes. If one wants their children to receive a Christian education there are fine Christian schools all over the country, and if they send them to a strong Jesuit school they are going to learn about evolution and the facts of evolution will be taught as facts.

[kestrel91316]

39. Wonder where the next generation of veterinarians is going to

come from..........? Without good critical thinking skills, you will never make it through the rigors of pre-vet classes and get good enough grades in the hard sciences so that you have a shot at admission. And then even if you get in, without critical thinking skills you are never going to be able to comprehend your medical education, or certainly never be a good vet.

Multiply times how many? science careers, and you have a societal disaster in the making.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

53. Christianity and the bible predate the USA

I quite sure that their are Christians in other countries who believe in the literal biblical description of creation. The Bible is not the exclusive domain of the US.

Do other countries laugh at us? Of course they do.

But then again, many in the US laugh their ass off at folks in Mecca when they trample each other during their yearly Hajj festival to throw stones at a rock.


Folks routinely laugh at others religions. However that doesnt make such intolerance ok.

[immoderate]

56. But we have the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

--IMM

[beam me up scottie]

59. rAmen.

http://www.venganza.org/enlight.htm

[immoderate]

60. And back at you, BMUS.

--IMM

[Kerrytravelers]

87. I have been touched by His noodly appendage.

[immoderate]

92. The sauce of life!

--IMM

[RagAss]

57. There are cretins everywhere....so what...

Do our children and grandchildren have to surrender the future of science to China and Japan because of a minority of fucked up goobers who believe in fairy tales??...even the Catholic Church renounces this...I was taught evolution in high school by a Jesuit priest....he never questioned evolution and it did not conflict with his faith....

[Freedom_Aflaim]

65. Yea thats the point.

They are everywhere.

[RagAss]

54. Trust me, they are laughing their asses off....

[Kailassa]

62. I'd be laughing a lot harder if Idiots were not bringing this crap here.

Our Australian government is slavishly trying to follow everything that *co do. Our federal minister for education has tried to get "Intelligent Design" taught in schools, but so far he has not had much luck.

It's a worry, because the more you present kids with such simplistic cop-outs to rational thought, the less they will fight any future dumbing down of the system.

But it certainly suits our respective governments if people become less able to think for themselves.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

63. They are probably laughing the HARDEST im China and India, while their

students study REAL science and their economies ramp up and up.

Their leadership probably knocks ten years off their projections of when they will surpass us as world powers every time they read a news story about "creationism" or "intelligent design", and have a hearty chuckle.

[savemefromdumbya]

64. people often wonder why God created roaches?

billions of years ago God created nasty little things like roaches, silver fish and bacteria. So why did he bother to do them first. People from foreign lands think that the USA is loony

[msatty99]

66. Morons

[tenshi816]

72. Sometimes I wonder what the creationists

who travel abroad think about people in the UK - we have Charles Darwin's face on our money.

[DanCa]

74. Waste of energy

This whole argument is silly really. People have all ready have taken sides on this issue and imo it's pointless to get them to switch their stances. Now wouldn't it be more productive if people would let this issue go and attack the right wing policy making freaks who want to impose their belief system on everyone?

I also feel angry when people seperate themeselves and treat others poorly over something as so petty as a religious or non religious belief system. I mean if we would just take the time and get to know a person we can find alot more reasons than to hate someone over there religious or non religious belief system.


Ah well have a happy day everyone. I am now going to shoot myself in the foot for answering this thread..

[bobbieinok]

91. it's not a pointless argument IF pushing ID undermines science

and scientific education in the US

[stepnw1f]

75. It's Not Just Embarrassing...

it's infuriating. They are deliberately shoving their views down our Governemnts throat. They are deliberately trying to sneak their wacked out perspective on the World down every citizens throat. It's infuriating that such a small cult can have such an impact on a country. I'm being kind when I call them just a cult.

[DanCa]

76. How do you think I feel?

These freaks want to keep me in a wheel chair because stem cell research is against their religious view points. I am not even allowed in their churches because of the way I vote. I do find it ironic though, because I thought Jesus favored their lame and the poor

[stepnw1f]

77. Yes He Did

according to the way I was taught the tenants of Christ. These weirdos don't follow Christ... they follow some cult leader who twists holiness into their own agenda.

Dan, we will win in the end, and hopefully we can help you out.

[DanCa]

78. When I was in DC last year a bishop said to me

That I deserve Parkinson's because I want to cultivate toddlers for me own needs. I forget the guys name but I still get white hot whenver I remember that. I can't believe how mean evil and viscious this new brand of christianity is. I am not, of course, talking about the good people on this site, just the ones who back Bush. And they seem to be growing more and more barbaric every day.

[stepnw1f]

79. I Pity Them All

They will be get what they deserve.

[msatty99]

80. I am glad to have so many who agree this is embarassing

[Kerrytravelers]

85. It makes us want to send our children out of the country for their

education. In Southern California, this hasn't been an issue--- yet. But lets just wait and see, We don't have kids yet, but we're always thinking about them That's why we worked so hard on the Kerry campaign. it was all for the kids we don't have yet. Now, we can look them in the eye and tell them Mommy and Daddy did everything they could to give them a better future and a better world.

[msatty99]

93. When creationism gets on 'the agenda'

it forces pols to 'take a stance' on an idiotic issue that should
never be an issue to begin with.

I am tired of having to 'respect the opinion' of someone who is
stating something idiotic. Creationism particularly bugs me
because it actually has people giving it respect.

The governors of Indiana and Kentucky (one of whom is a trained
physician ) say ID should be allowed and its 'up to the local
school board" as to whether to introduce it to the curriculum.

Now that's no different, in my opinion that saying 'astrology is
a perfectly acceptable science theory that should be allowed'

[NMMNG]

94. Well, really

We could make education much cheaper if we gave up on all of that science, history and other nonsense. Just make the Bible the official textbook and be done with all others. One book for all 13 years of school--mighty cheap and easy, plus no more dickering over evolution vs. creation. :sarcasm: