BIG STORM: THE LYNNDIE ENGLAND STORY Doc...

[HardWorkingDem]

I just saw the last fifteen or twenty minutes of this documentary and plan to try and catch the rest of it, but the little I did see left me as angry as hell.

I'm not defending what she did, but dammit, there are others out there more responsible for all of this abuse than she is. No one will ever be able to persuade me that these soldiers were not manipulated into doing what they did by others and that their role has been very carefully blurred by winks and nods. No one will ever be able to prove to me that young, easily led soldiers knew the cultural aspects of what it means to Arab men to be led on a dog leash or forced to be naked with other men. Hell, I have an advanced degree and was ignorant to many aspects of their culture until this mess hit (simulating masturbation in front of each other, nude while women present, fear of dogs, et cetera).

When I recall my own military background, the most realistic portrayal of what the higher ups have gotten away with is very similar to the role Jack Nicholson played in the movie "A Few Good Men."

People, somebody or many somebodies, some where ordered this fucking bullshit and then were able to leave the lowest ranking people holding the bags.



http://www.sundancechannel.com/film/?ixFilmID=6866&rname=The%20Sundance%20Channel%20Schedule

[acmavm]

1. Yes, there are others WAY more responsible. But she had

a choice to make, right or wrong. She decided that having a good time (however one could ever describe what she did as a good time??) with her trashy lover rather than show the decency we expect from a human being and a member of the armed services of this country.

She is no innocent by any means.

[HardWorkingDem]

3. Here's the thing...

I believe it was in Moore's F9/11 where a young solider was asked what he wanted to go to Iraq for and he said to get a little payback for the WTC towers coming down. This with the one time 75 percent belief that Hussein was behind 9/11 shows us an angle we need to look at this issue from.

The reason I mention this, is that many, many of these young, easily swayed people have been taken advantage of. From the start they have been told things like these people apprehended are the ones responsible for 9/11, that they are less than human, that they have vital information and very possibly, that some of these acts are even legal.

Like I said, I'm not trying to defend their actions, but we back home here must understand the environment that these acts occurred in. We must take into consideration many things. For example, I am a 41 yr old educated person who believes in human rights, but I can't imagine the influence these mysterious people have had over the many young, naive and uneducated soldiers miles away from home that were probably told by their own chain of command to not worry about these things.

What I can imagine is that some "mysterious stranger" with a huge amount of power and influence directed much of what went on in those prisons.

(And please don't take this to mean the beatings, extreme abuse or murder - of course there are things that plainly wrong no matter what - the things I'm bringing up are those that these soldiers are being jailed for - England's parading around of a leashed man or the solider just sent to jail for siccing a dog on a human.)

My point is that someone, somewhere came in and had to have told these people that these things were legal, justifiable and allowable and then have so far been able to walk away.

[RaleighNCDUer]

7. Someone?

How about General Miller, I think it was, who was transferred on Rumsfeld's orders to take over Abu Grahib after having been in charge of the concentration camp at Gitmo? The abuses at AG only began after he took charge.

There is no mysterious 'someone'. There is a clear chain of command, and this shit came from the top.

[TheBaldyMan]

2. but ... but ... they were just softening them up for the sheer joy of it

seriously the blame for it lies squarely with the Bush administration.

They went in short on manpower ignoring requests for extra MPs and security troops with a consequent staffing of prisons with inexperienced guards.

Intelligence officers encouraged the guards to mistreat prisoners and collude in illegal detentions and interrogations.

The troops that were prosecuted were only the tip of a very large and extensive iceberg and the corruption goes all the way up to Rumsfeld AT LEAST.

[DinahMoeHum]

4. "If you are doomed to eat shit, you may as well bring your own fork"

said writer Joe Bageant of Lynndie England:

Link:
http://www.joebageant.com/joe/2004/06/mash_note_for_t.html

(snip)
Lynndie England never had a chance. Abu Ghraib, or maybe something even worse (an RPG up the shorts, for instance) was always her destiny...Forty-six percent of the American dead in Iraq came from towns of less than 40,000. Yet these towns make up only 25% of our population. Most of the young soldiers were fleeing economically depressed places, or dead end jobs like Lynndie had at the chicken processing plant. These so-called volunteers are part of this nation's de facto draft -- economic conscription. Money is always the best whip to use on the laboring classes. Thirteen hundred a month, a signing bonus and free room and board sure beats the hell out of yanking guts through a chicken's ass.

And there are those big bucks for college later. Up to $65,000. Lynndie was supposedly going to college after her enlistment to become a "storm chaser," like in the Helen Hunt movie "Twister." Yeah, right. There are millions of openings in the tornado chasing business. And I'm going to be the centerfold in the next Playgirl beefcake issue. I suppose lots of poor kids do go to college on their military benefits. But personally speaking, I can count the number I know who actually did it on one hand. Let's be honest here: graduating from a small town redneck white high school not knowing where Alaska is on a map of the US is not exactly the path to the fountain at Harvard Yard. But I suspect that down inside Lynndie knew her lot in life from the start -- she wore combat boots and camo outfits to high school. Swore she loved it. If you are doomed to eat shit, you may as well bring your own fork.

(snip)

:smoke:

[Arkansas Granny]

5. The soldiers who have been prosecuted probably deserve the

sentences that have been handed down for their actions. However, I don't believe that these actions would have been so widespread and openly committed if they hadn't been condoned, suggested or initiated by their senior officers. I don't believe the higher-ups can even claim that they didn't know what was happening. If they didn't know, they should have. IMO this issue goes all the way to the top of the military hierarchy and so should the prosecution.

[Horse with no Name]

6. I'm just curious what their families thought

When they requested that they be sent leashes, dog collars and cattle prods.
Oh wait...they didn't request them from home?
I guess they got them at the nearest Walmart in Iraq?
Hmmm no stores around Abu Ghraib? Hmmm.
I wonder where they got those items?:popcorn:

[leftofthedial]

8. in the military, you undoubtedly learned in which direction

the brown stuff flows


especially in an ownership society