I just had lunch with a concentration camp survivor who votes Republican.

[Cyrano]

My friend's grandfather is in his 80s, in good health, spry, lives in California, and decided to make a swing around the country to visit his grandchildren. He's here for about four days and today I went out to lunch with him and my friend.

I've seen many people in southern Florida with that concentration camp tattoo on their arm, but it's something you never get used to. My reaction is always sorrow for the person who has it and rage at the Nazis who put it there. But beyond that, I always wonder how anyone managed to survive the hell they had lived through, and my certainty that I myself would never have made it had I been there.

During lunch, the topic turned to politics and I almost fell off my chair when my friend's grandfather said he voted Republican. As it turned out, he didn't have much regard for Bush, or any of them. He thought most of them were "... schmucks looking out for themselves."

"Then how can you vote for them?" I asked, trying not to scream.

"I have stocks," he answered. "I want something to leave to my grandchildren."

My friend recognized my oncoming diatribe, kicked me under the table before I could get a word out, and changed the subject.

I'm still stunned that someone who came of age in Germany during the Nazi era, saw firsthand what they did to Jews and others, lost much of his family in the camps, and survived to come here, fails to connect the experience of his youth with what's happening here today.

My mind is still reeling over this encounter and I'm about as confused as I ever want to be. Had my friend not stopped me, what could I possibly have said to this man? What would you have said?

[LSK]

1. uhhh, does he not pay attention to his stocks???

Lets see, Bush 1 - recession

Clinton - booming economy and stock market

Bush 2 - recession


I just dont get it that people are so clueless. :shrug:

[Cassandra]

13. Actually, the market's up some.

Not because the economy is improving but because wages are so depressed. Companies pay less for labor, both here and abroad, don't "waste" money on pesky things like R&D, health insurance and pensions, which Wall Street doesn't care so much about and voila, more profit shown by the corporations so the stock price goes up. It's called eating your seed corn.

[jsamuel]

16. up compared to the first year of Bush...

instead of 6 years of growth we have had 6 years of stagnation...

it isn't just about what was gained, but what could have been gained that wasn't

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

2. I Would Have Said....

All the money you made in the market, that you're leaving to your grandchildren, will be Worthless thanks to the Incredible Debt that the people YOU Voted For are leaving to the next generations.

[Horse with no Name]

3. Absolutely nothing.

The man has been through enough in his lifetime. He has already fought his battles. This one isn't his to fight if he doesn't choose to.

[catmother]

7. i totally agree. given his past and his age i would have said

nothing.:crazy:

[Swamp Rat]

10. ditto

:)

[Warpy]

4. My pop was the same, voted for Stupid in 2000 for just that reason

He voted for Kerry in 2004. The Smear Boat ads did it for him, a chickenhawk paying for ads to smear a real vet.

What we need to realize is that most people still do vote their pocketbooks and have fallen for the tax cut scam only because the Democrats have offered them exactly NOTHING. All that social repression bullshit is only to sweeten the pot for angry white males.

[trotsky]

5. So obviously he wasn't paying attention in the 90s

when his stocks were going like gangbusters thanks to the economy Clinton presided over.

[Gormy Cuss]

6. Not much to say.

He is an old man who no longer has any fight in him. I would wager that he does see it and just didn't believe that Gore or Kerry would have made a difference, so he's doing what he thinks will protect his own.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

8. I have inlaws who survived also

and what you have to understand about them is that the single most important thing in their lives today is...money. And in the case of my inlaws, gold. Because gold was the only negotiable currency during much of and after the war. And money could have bought a lot of them a way out.

Now it is like they don't have the time or energy to worry about abstract concepts or values. Just the bottom line.

I guess I can't blame them. They have lived through hell.

[shance]

50. Yes. So true. Extraordinary moments like that are bound to create

an irreversible imprint.

A similar imprint was left on my father who lived (and his family lost) through the Depression. From that point on, he seemed to vow never to revisit what he'd seen during those years, became a surgeon, and money in many ways, became the most important thing to him as well. And now that you enlightened me, I think it was because it meant freedom to him, similarly like your in-laws.

Sad that we are so driven by a system that will only give us freedom if we have the means to obtain it, which some don't as much as others. That is why it seems to me a monetary system is a system that enslaves, creates a dysfunctional dependent and dishonest state of existence, not to mention it discriminates.

[unblock]

9. my grandparents smuggled my mother out of vienna after the anschluss

the ss came and took away all the jews in the building. fortunately, my grandparents were out shopping and a misunderstanding led the ss to believe they had all the jews. the superintendent evicted them on sight when they returned, lest he be taken away as well.

they took a picnic basket and took a train trip to the german-belgian border and then walked across the border in the woods, where a car took them to safety. a year later they got a british visa and fled, just prior to hitler turning the war west through belgium. eventually they came to the u.s.

my grandfather was a democrat when he came to this country, but some time in the 70's he turned republican and continued to spout idiotic political nonsense until the day he died. never could understand how someone with that history couldn't see the dangers in the republican platform, although admittedly, republicans back in the 70's weren't the same beast as today's banana republican.

of course, he was always a bit crazy....

[Dunvegan]

11. Maybe all his stock is in Halliburton?

[zbdent]

12. My statement would have been

"Are you leaving more than $2 Million per grandchild? If so, only then would they have to start to pay taxes on the amount over that . . ."

(didn't they raise that amount?)

[mmonk]

14. Tell him dumb reason.

"I have stocks," he answered. "I want something to leave to my grandchildren."



The stock market traditionally does better under democrats

[TahitiNut]

15. The stock in Krups and IBM benefited from the labor camps.

Some people really do think that after "paying their dues" they can become the oppressor rather than the oppressed.

Some people are seduced by the "ownership society" meme - and the chance to be an exploiter rather than be exploited - profiting from the labor of others.

Slaves beat their children because the slave-master beat them - a form of generational child abuse.

Some people think they have a license to be a bigot because they paid their dues being subjected to bigotry.

Some people put up with hazing so they can do the hazing.

Some people think the only thing 'wrong' with the system is that they're not the ones on top getting the biggest benefit from the system.

We live. We learn. We have choices about what we learn. Sometimes we learn to become part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

[Cyrano]

18. No camp survivor I've met fits your "Some people" comparisons.

Many of them still wake up in the night thinking they're still back in the camps. I don't believe I've ever met one who had any desire to turn around and do to someone else what was done to them.

[TahitiNut]

24. These people were also camp prisoners, tattoos and all ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapo_%28Arbeitslager%29

Many of these people didn't survive "liberation." :shrug:

[NYCGirl]

25. What does that have to do with your offensive post above? NT

[TahitiNut]

30. Lacking an explanation, I have no idea what you mean. Read ...

http://summeroftruth.org/enemy/enemy.html

http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com/articles/auschwitz.html

[mitchum]

39. I see nothing wrong with your comment about the stock in Krups and IBM

[EC]

17. So, he didn't learn from past mistakes?

Should have told him the truth is that the market does better under Democrates, that he swollowed the hype.....

[Cyrano]

19. After reading posts #3, #7 and #10, I agree with them. It was best

to say nothing.

None of us can possibly imagine in our worst nightmares the hell this man lived through.

The current battle is ours, not his.

[EC]

21. Saying nothing is best

but he's once again being an enabler....that's why a lot of Jews didn't leave in time the first time, their businesses were doing well and they didn't believe there was a problem...until too late...

[Cyrano]

28. Let me see if I get this straight. You're saying Jews were Nazi enablers??

Perhaps you should rethink that statement. There's something in it that set off a rather unpleasant alarm in my head, and I have a feeling that I'm not the only DUer that feels that way.

[mitchum]

40. I believe the poster was implying SOME Jews...

and if you become familiar with the history of Nazi Germany, you will find that he or she is correct.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cyrano]

44. Based on the posts you chose to support, I stand by my position.

Over and out.

[mitchum]

45. And just what is your position?

[Marnieworld]

22. Agreed

It's important that we teach people when we can but to never stop using our judgement when we do. With his age and background he has somehow developed a way to survive and be sane despite what he experienced and witnessed. Sometimes it is not our role to remove blinders from people when it is the very blinders that hold them together. :hug:

[tom_paine]

58. Well said, Cyrano. To remain silent was wise.

n/t

[Kurovski]

20. Nothing, I wouldn't say a thing in that situation.

Not even "It would appear that there are a good many schmucks looking out for themselves in the world."

He's 80, he's convinced himself to the point of saying he did it for his offspring, what would be the point?

[alcibiades_mystery]

23. Here's one reason they may fail to connect their youth with today.

Because it's TOTALLY FUCKING DIFFERENT.

:eyes:

[truebrit71]

26. And every "good" German said nothing as they were taken away..

..because they too wanted to leave something for their grandchildren...

It's amazing how greed can overcome everything....

His answer makes no sense, stocks did better under President Clinton than under Smirky McFlightsuit so logic doesn't seem to be an issue...

Having said that, he's 80+ yrs old, he's been though hell, he gets to vote for whomever he so chooses, logic be damned...

[NYCGirl]

27. Have you ever thought that someone like that is driven not by greed but

by fear? Perhaps he wants to leave something to the grandchildren because of the fear that what happened to him can happen again.

[Cyrano]

29. Excellent point. Now I'm really glad I kept my mouth shut.

[truebrit71]

31. Having money didn't stop the Jews from being carted off back then...

..it couldn't buy them freedom from oppression then..why would it be any different now?

Having money back then as a Jew was PROOF that the Germans were right and you were exploiting the true Germans for your own gain.

Your argument doesn't work. Sorry.

[NYCGirl]

35. Fear isn't always logical. Is it better to be rich or poor in the US?

If you have money, you can leave the country.

Edited to add: My cousin who lives in LA, is the only survivor of his family who died in Auschwitz. The first thing he made sure to do when he came here to the US was to make as much money as he possibly could.

[Raksha]

49. For some, having money made the difference between getting out

and not getting out. This was especially true if the money could put into some form of real wealth like gold or diamonds, very convenient for bribing border guards. Diamonds have the added advantage of being easily concealed.

[Raksha]

48. I think you're right. What really motivates someone like this

is a deep sense of insecurity (understandable) and a desire to protect his own at all costs. He's going about it the wrong way, but I think that's what he really wants. I don't think it's greed that motivates him.

[BuyingThyme]

32. Jewish Wingers are no different than any other Wingers.

And they are well-represented in the current administration.

[Cyrano]

36. Thank you for sharing that with us.

[BuyingThyme]

37. The simple truth is always simple.

[Cleita]

33. When he came to this country Republicans weren't evil

incarnate like they are today. They appealed to people who were capitalists. He probably hasn't caught up with the times at his age.

[Iris]

34. I know he's old and all, but

this is just stupid:

"I have stocks," he answered. "I want something to leave to my grandchildren."

[mitchum]

47. "Your cubs will starve so that my cubs can eat" is all that he was saying

Or I guess in his case "grandcubs"

[Iris]

52. Well, the stockmarket a'int so great lately.

The Republicans are falling down on the job, I guess. Hope his grandcubs survive.

[cantstandbush]

38. Ahhh, the things people will do for money they won't even get to spend.

Even Solomon said it was "vanity" to amass a fortune to leave to fools.

[sandnsea]

43. I vote my economic interest

It's just that mine is different than his.

[mitchum]

46. Odd how quickly your "trying not to scream"..."oncoming diatribe"...

"reeling mind"...and "confusion" dissipated during the course of this thread.
Remarkable, actually.

[patdem]

51. I guess it is a wash..his stocks...bush's debt? n/t

[ComerPerro]

53. Honestly, some Republicans have this odd mentality where

they only care about what they are going through, and couldn't give a shit about anyone else.


Did I say "some"? I meant "all".


I would be willing to bet that, despite the horrors that this guy experienced, he wouldn't care if the holocaust were repeated, as long as he didn't have to suffer through it.



As long as his stocks are ok, why should he care, right?

[RazzleDazzle]

54. greed and fear

You just about can't beat 'em.

Put another way: you can't reason someone out of a position arrived at emotionally. (That's a bad paraphrase of a quote from someone, and apparently I've lost the quote and the cite. But it's very, very true.)

[specimenfred1984]

55. Stocks Perform Better Under Democratic Administrations

--- Stocks Have Actually Done Better Under Democrats

Despite the behavior of the market during the last Presidential election, over longer periods of time, the stock market has done significantly better under Democratic administrations. ---

http://finance.yahoo.com/columnist/article/futureinvest/3022


Oh well, another propagandized repuke myth exposed!

[Autobot77]

56. This reminds me of an article I read a while back

I was reading Parade, and there was an article by Elie Wiesel, going on and on about how Iraq was about liberation blah,blah,blah. It really pissed me off because I really was moved by Night and here he was regurgitating Bush talking points. I don't know if he votes Republican, but it sure sounded like it from his article.

[Raksha]

60. ELIE WIESEL??? Ohmigod, say it ain't so!!!

He's one of my heroes (or was). This is truly one of the most depressing things I've heard in a long time.

[TahitiNut]

61. National Review used Wiesel to raise the GOP rabble for Junior in Oct 2004

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/friedman200410311145.asp

FWIW, Parade Magazine is about as socially KKKonservative a rag as they get. :shrug:

[Dem Agog]

57. So, in otherwords...

You've had lunch with an utter retarded dumbfuck.

Congratulations.

I could go to lunch with my brother for that.

[B Calm]

59. My investments do better under democratic rule..you'd think

this guy would know better and not vote for cons.