What is up with all the hate for victims of rape/sexual abuse?

[sproutster]

I am serious. I have seen so much - "if it's old enough to bleed, it's old enough to breed" mentality in here my eyes are about to bug out. If it's not the victims FAULT then they are pretty much lying because apparantly NO WOMAN GET RAPED ... They just lie about it all the damn time.

The sad part of it, is not one of you see a problem with this point of view. Your opinion will never be different until it happens to you, or yours. Whats really sad is in espousing this view - if it is yours - They too will be silent and take their shame as something they did. Something they wore. Maybe they were just born with the word slut across their forehead that predators can just see. Because they will believe you. If it happens to you, then and only then will you understand the protection and justification you give to the perpetrators.

"Oh but if she was REALLY raped... it's a bad thing."

I've given some of my background freely on this board. I am not talking out of my ass. Thanks to you who think... well if she was REALLY raped, that's a bad thing. There are rapists walking around free, because I fear you more then them.

One out of three women.

I had a friend who was raped when she accepted a ride from someone she knew from work after she got a flat tire. They drove her to a buisness and raped her in a bathroom. She went to the hospital - she had ejaculate all over her, and bruising where they tried to strangle her. They also had the business stuff where it happened with all the evidence. The perp had money, hired an attorney, and the investigator found a person who was not her friend - They would testify in court that this girl was a slut, and knew this guy had money and would set him up. ... She did not testify, he walks free, and the person who was not her friend? LYING.

I dunno, I just had to get this off of my chest.

[bobalu]

1. ..That is a REALLY horrible story...I know of a number of women

who were raped...horrible.

[bloom]

2. I am esp. fed up

with stories of people with money getting off - or getting off with lame sentences.

And it's odd how people want to "wait until the accused rapists are convicted" (and basically believe everything the defense attorney says) - but they can rant and rave about DeLay (or even McKinney) and whomever has charges against them all night long - without convictions.


I was reading something recently that reminded me that at least in some states - in my lifetime - there were all male juries - no women allowed. We still have a lot of overcoming to do.

[LostinVA]

26. Kobe Bryant, etc.

All go off because of the money angle, yet so many people -- including people on here -- still insist the victim was a slut, a gold-digger, asked for it, liked rough sex, whatever. A good book by Jeff Benedict about this VERY thing (ie rich sports guys who get away with it by trashing the victim until they give up, THEN saying, "see???"): "Out of Bounds."

[niyad]

3. unfortunately, what happened to your friend was not an isolated incident.

men raping women is the original sin, and the model upon which all oppression and violence is based. and we are enculturated NOT to see this glaringly obvious fact, because when we point it out, we are told that we hate men.

I hope that your friend was able to find a really good counsellor. and I hope her rapist gets exactly what he, and everyone involved, deserves.

[marions ghost]

4. all too often

there is no justice for the rape victim. It plays out exactly as you have described here, especially if the perp has money.

I think people are sick and tired of this.

[Broken_Hero]

5. Sorry about your friend...

In this day and age, or ever...I dont' think there has been any real justice...Justice is just for the people who can afford to get away with it. My wife and her parents went through a rough custody battle, with the law on their side, but the judge/attorneys' involved didn't heed the law, and my wife lost her nephew...its all about the $ and power...Justice is for the people who can afford it, i'm sad to say...:(

[marions ghost]

34. I have seen it several times

As U say, "Justice is for people who can afford it..." in this country. Anyone who truly believes they are protected by the legal system had better take a second look.

Judges and attorneys have developed a jaded attitude and look the other way. Especially in cases involving upscale members of the community, they are complicit in leniency, no matter what the crime. Money rules.

[Broken_Hero]

67. yes, very true...

People who truly believe they are protected by the legal system, just haven't been on the recieving end of INJUSTICE yet...they still believe in the ideals of it. Once their virginity is busted, by our justice system, i'm sure they will have a different out look on it.

[bettyellen]

6. when my cousin was murdered, lawyer did the same. guys lied.. said she

was a slut and deserved it. a former friend of hers lied to say she was still dating her ex (the murderer) and cheating on him. they had been broken up for more than a year, and not much else was true either.
the concept that making her look slutty justifies murder is disturbing.

[sproutster]

7. Wow. It just infuriates me! WHY IS SLUTTY JUSTIFICATION?

Seriously? Why do we allow it? What is slutty? Why does that word DESTROY any womans intelligence, credibility, and life?

lol, I'm walking a fine line right now because with the stories of the last 3 or 4 days just absolutely pisses me off... So I'm trying to mind my p's and q's and not go off on anyone. I am just disturbed that of the stories 30% plus or minus in a liberal group are using this type of justification. If it's 30% over here, then it's 80 - 90% across the way... And that mean... We are still powerless as a sex. :( Or someone tell me I'm wrong.

[bettyellen]

8. what was really sad was that she had an abortion 2 or more years prior

when she was dating this guy (she was a college student, he much older) . and her parents would have never known, but yeah, they brought that up too.
he had bought the gun a few days earlier, had never owned one, obviously planned it (because she would not get back with him)
yet they said it was a crime of passion. they had been broken up more than a year. she went to see him because his mom was diagnosed with cancer. WTF is that? when is a man expected to let fucking go already?

[sproutster]

9. :( Poor thing. I'm so sorry for you.

[bettyellen]

11. she was beautiful, smart, funny a year out of college...

and we dropped her off and left her alone with him. he shot her almost immediately.
i remember it was weird, he kept us on the porch the full 1/2 hour we were there. she didn't want to stay, he kinda talked her into it.
i went up to use the bathroom, and kind of lingered and glanced around the place, took too long i guess.
he shot me a scary look when i got downstairs. i would have never guessed why, but later i was sure he was worried i saw the shot gun.
about 8 years later, we saw him on the boardwalk, having a normal life. that seemed soo fucked up. i think he served 5 or 6 at most.

[marions ghost]

35. why this monster

is leading a normal life now has so much to do with societal misogyny. It's condoned.

Maybe one day you could write about this (with a support group)--these stories need to be told.

[vickitulsa]

52. If an obvious premeditated MURDER like this gets the offender

only five or six years, it's pretty easy to see why those who commit "only" rape have little to fear by way of sentencing, even if convicted (which ain't likely).

This is such a disturbing story, Bettyellen, and I'm so sorry you were so close to it because it has affected you profoundly as well. I bet you've asked yourself a million times all the "what if" questions.

Those who say the legal system in this country is not based on justice anymore are so right. It's bought and paid for, and we who have ever been inmates call it the "just us" system: For "just us" who have the money to buy our way out of a conviction!

(And I am certainly not one of them!)

Strange. We all know how corrupt and abusive both cops and the criminal justice system in this country often are, yet for entertainment we watch dramas on TV about cops and the justice system till the world looks level. Sometimes they get it right, play it realistically, yes. But more often they present an ideal that exists only in a fictional setting. The "real thing" is very frightening indeed, and I hope few here ever have to learn it the hard way as I did.

But as it says in the intro to the old Kingston Trio hit "MTA": "This ... could happen ... to YOU...."

[blonndee]

106. I'm so sorry to hear about your cousin.

As far as "men letting go already," from my experience, although in popular culture women tend to be demonized and degraded as the "psycho stalkers" (see Fatal Attraction, What Lies Beneath, about 75% of Lifetime movies) in my experience, it has been mostly men who have lost it and really resorted to scary, violent means and can't let go. Not that this is always true, but most of the time it seems like that's the case.

Again, I am so sorry for your family and your cousin. There's no justification for the "trial" she had to endure, being a victim.

[Der Blaue Engel]

10. I haven't seen this attitude here

I don't doubt you; I've just been fortunate enough to have missed whatever threads these are. (Probably in part because I often hide threads with the word rape in the title, because I just can't take the trauma.)

Anyone who makes such implications should just turn in their liberal badge right now because we don't need that kind of "help" on our side.

[bettyellen]

12. you're lucky then, betty

you avoided it by missing the early duke u rape threads. not pretty.
hope things are well w/ you. happy springtime!
:hi:

[Der Blaue Engel]

13. Also, I have a huge number of people on Ignore

Lol! I take comfort in my judgement when I notice other people arguing with an Ignored who has obviously said something useless that I didn't have to read. :D

:hi:

[bettyellen]

16. you're smarter than me, i tell ya. speaking of which....

made any back to school plans? or were you going to travel.....?
i forget what it was, but it was interesting! ;)

[Der Blaue Engel]

18. I'm taking a class in Russian Culture and Civilization

and I decided to take the school-sponsored trip to St. Petersburg this summer. I'll be living with a Russian host family for a month and taking intensive Russian lessons. (I don't know a word of Russian yet.) I'm alternating between excited and completely freaking out.

[bettyellen]

44. wow, very cool.

i'm thrilled for you!
:bounce:

[knitter4democracy]

60. Very fun!

I did a semester of study in Nizhni Novgorod when I was in college (Fall 1995). It was great!

PM me if you want to talk about it or discuss packing and all. :)

[Sequoia]

74. You might like this

http://www.bestofrussia.ca/index.html

Your so lucky to go there. We never had the chance to that since Russia was oh so off limits, as was East Berlin. Be sure to get one of those cool black furry hats.

[LostinVA]

29. I do, too... and most got on there because of these threads

the OP is talking about!

[raccoon]

46. Me too. nt

[barb162]

98. that's hilarious; good idea with the ignore thing!!!

[Triana]

14. We live in a society where women are largely blamed

for everything. Rape, divorce, breakups, the economy, dirty house, bad kids, no money, husband lost job, she lost job - whatever it is, the woman in the situation is likely to get most of the blame for it. Not to say they are not or should not be responsible for SOME of this stuff (except rape), but our society uses women as whipping posts for all the ills or problems that plague it and the relationships in it NO MATTER WHAT THE SITUATION IS or what happened or happens.

Remember - Eve was FRAMED. She is STILL being framed. I think that blaming women for rape or doubting them when they say they were raped is part of this mentality. Women are STILL considered less than 100% human.

[vickitulsa]

15. I can't think of ANY woman I know who has NOT been raped.

And yes, I'm serious. Perhaps a lot of those were "only" marital rapes when a husband used physical force or other ways they know to compel compliance -- cases where it would be difficult to PROVE in a court of law that it was rape. (Notice you hardly ever hear of a case of marital rape being brought in court.)

But a great many women in this country, surely as many as one in three, as the statistics have it, experience rape at least once, and a lot of them repeatedly. I've been raped quite a few times in my long life (I'm 56 now, and still not safe from some twisted rapists). I know I was more vulnerable than many because I was molested by my father for several years starting when I was seven. Such abuse is like "training" for later life, and many women like me DO seem almost to wear a sign on their foreheads -- only instead of "I'm a slut," it says "I was molested as a child," and predatory men understand the vulnerability that implies. I've learned to recognize it when a man I meet begins to size me up, testing to see how much pressure it would take, see if I lack the will to fight back fiercely. I used to be so easily fooled by savvy predators....

Like many women with a similar background, I usually have plenty of male "friends." It is something else that's programmed into me -- I unconsciously try to please guys and therefore get along with most of them well. Yet even the BEST male "pal" I've had has never heard me reveal the whole truth about the rapes I've suffered. Why? Because I KNOW they are likely to be put off, to doubt my word, or at the very least to feel uncomfortable around me ever after.

I think men do know they are cads on this subject, if they'll look in the mirror and face the truth about themselves. Not all of them are insensitive or cruel, no, but too many, in my book. And of all places where I'd honestly expect the men to be way more realistic and understanding -- and supportive -- of the women in their group, it would be here at DU!

How can DU men seem to comprehend pretty well the issues regarding abortion and a woman's right to choose and yet waffle like crazy (at best) when it comes to rape? Surely there are some guys here who understand and care?

I know I'd like to hear from them.... :hi:

[pecwae]

32. Marital rape

was the most violent attack I have ever suffered. It's not something readily admitted because many people don't see how rape can occur inside marriage. Isn't the husband entitled, when where, how, how often?:sarcasm:

I had a razor blade held to my neck, after he had shredded all my clothes, with my 2 year old toddler standing my the bed. I pleaded for him to at least let me put the baby in her crib; he said it would be "good for her" to see. This man had me terrorized. His violence continued for another six months before I could finally leave him.

I told this to one person who I thought was a friend; she didn't believe it and asked "what did you do to set him off?" I've never told another soul until now.

[lukasahero]

36. I am so sorry

for both what you have been through and the fear and distrust you live with in the aftermath. :cry: and :hug:

Domestic violence and marital rape are overwhelmingly (and oft deliberately) misunderstood. My heart aches for it's victims. Congratulations on getting yourself out of the situation.

PS - Coming from someone who also knows.

[vickitulsa]

51. I am SO GLAD you told US! Good for you, that's a big step and

a very courageous one. It was not easy for me to post what I did to this thread, either, I can assure you.

Does anyone here remember the movie Jody Foster starred in called "The Accused"? (I think that was the title of it.) She played a woman who was raped by multiple men in a bar (on the pinball machine I believe it was) after she had been drinking and having a good time with them. The character lived in a mobile home and was, well, far from "upper class," but she was indignant and angry and got a lawyer to take the men to court.

Strange that I cannot recall how it ended -- seems like she won a Pyrrhic victory of sorts, but I'm not sure. However, I was so happy just to see that sort of event realistically portrayed in a major movie with a major star in the lead role! This one made it all too clear how the plaintiff who was raped ended up being "the accused" and put through hell during the trial as if she were the defendant! Defense lawyer dug up every negative thing he could about her, portrayed her as a slut who "asked for it," "wanted it," "enjoyed it" -- the whole nine yards. Very realistic.

But now, some 10 or more years after that movie got a lot of attention, women are still put through exactly the same torture if they want to try to prosecute a man for rape. And men know it!

How can they NOT feel invulnerable to prosecution when they're aware very few women will take that step? They realize even if they are taken to criminal court, they'd get to say every nasty thing they wanted to about the woman who was their victim -- and in a very public way! What have they to fear?

Also, I think the "not guilty" outcome of that Kennedy cousin rape case pretty much sealed the fate of many women in this country for a long time.

I'm so glad you finally did manage to leave that monstrous asshole, pecwae! :hug:

[pecwae]

55. Thanks lukashero & vickitulsa

Seems as if some of the very best souls of DU show up on these threads. :hug: to both of you.

[pitohui]

56. that flick was based on a true story

it happened in the 70s if i recall correctly, some small town in i think massachusetts, a bunch of neanderthals used to hang out at that bar and cover for people

you wonder how many other women they did this to, before this particular woman stood up

[knitter4democracy]

61. Oh my god.

First of all, what kind of woman would think that it was in any way your fault? That guy was psychotic, obviously, and who knows what the trigger was--the weather, a brain attack, who knows. You poor thing, having to go through that, knowing your baby was standing there watching. :cry: How awful. :(

[ceile]

63. Big step, pecwae!

Telling your story will help you heal and who knows who you may have inspired on this board to do the same. You are a strong woman!!
:hug:

[readmoreoften]

37. I've only met one woman in my life who wasn't raped.

That's my girlfriend, and she's a butch lesbian so she has her own set of problems. Any female I've ever discussed this with has been sexually assaulted. And other women talk to me about it all the time. I think the "one in three" thing is downright silly. It's at least two out of three. Probably nine out of ten. I witnessed a sexual assault last week at a bar, and I may be called to court to testify.

It seems that sexual assault is about as common as someone losing their keys, and usually treated with the same gravity.

[Patiod]

40. never raped, but assaulted twice

Once I kneed the guy in the balls, the other time it was a close friend, and I started to cry and he stopped.

Later, TWO separate times, I told the story about my "friend" and the woman I was telling it to got upset, and admitted he had NOT stopped with her, and had progressed to rape. If TWO other victims popped up casually like that, imagine how many women he had forced himself on. Outwardly a Cheerful, easy-going, good-looking guy, just didn't fathom that any woman he was alone with wasn't fair game. Never spoke to him again, but made damned sure every woman I knew heard the story. The guy whose balls I kneed laughed and told mutual friends later "I guess I was asking for it" - uh, YEAH.

[knitter4democracy]

64. a couple of scares and an assault but no rape

My assault was just over a year ago, and it was by a radiology tech. The problem is that few took me seriously, even my hubby, who's an internist. She was doing a regular pelvic ultrasound, and when she got to the endovaginal probe, she shoved that thing in every direction as far as it would go over and over again, ramming my cervix at least five times, and finally ending up with making the 7" probe go vertical, making me see stars.

All of that was to see if I still had the ovarian cyst that we thought was causing my never-ending severe pain at the time. I tried to sue but tort reform kept that from happening, I filed an incident report with the cops, and I made a formal complaint with the practice. That was all I could do--she was still in training, so they busted her back a level or two. Nothing happened to her, and I needed counselling for months so I could sleep again.

That b**** had something wrong with her--she obviously didn't know or care that I was in horrible pain, even when she had to help me get up and walk back to the room with me in tears.

As for the scares, I was travelling, and they thought that American women were easy. When we said no, they pursued, and we hid. It was scary, but thankfully, nothing happened.

[McCamy Taylor]

17. RNC is stirring up hate towards women and minorities now, to get

their base back into the GOP flock. Too many conservatives are threatening to stay home this fall, because Bush and the Neo-cons and the GOP controlled Congress have annoyed them by not being neaderthal enough (imagine that!)

So they have their Rushes and their Neils working overtime fanning the flames of sexism, racism, hatred, all kinds of nasty isms. Pat Buchanan was on Countdown last night advising the GOP that their best way to win was to tell their base that Dems would put Blacks like Charlie Rangel in charge of committees!!!!

It is going to be an ugly summer.

We need to take a page from Cindy Sheehan and stay focused, think solidarity, unity and peace.

[NMMNG]

19. Don't you know?

A woman who has sex willingly with numerous guys (e.g., a "slut") can never be raped.


Just like a man who repeatedly willingly gives money to others can never be robbed. :sarcasm:

[Solly Mack]

20. Bless you! I get to the point of "why even fucking bother?"

My jaw drops sometimes when reading some responses - it really speaks volumes as to how some people really feel about women...and you're right, I don't think they have a clue what their responses says about them.

Thank you - your "rant" was needed.

[Berry Cool]

21. Same here. Bless you.

Remember when the young woman was tortured, raped and killed in NYC not so long ago? How much of the reaction to this murder consisted of genuine horror that such a thing should happen to anyone...and how much of it consisted of "Yeah, OK, but what was she doing drinking in a bar alone at 4 AM?"

As if the fact that she was out drinking in a bar alone at 4 AM could possibly begin to justify what happened to her.

I think people who say things like that say them because they want to believe they and/or their loved ones will be safe if they just "follow the rules"...the rules that circumscribe what a woman is supposed to be safe doing, where and how. The rules that secretly restrict and confine all women, and don't similarly restrict and confine men. Of course, it's not true, but they feel comforted believing such things are true. They feel comforted believing that if they don't stay out drinking alone until 4 AM, or accept rides from strangers, or go home with men they don't know well...or their girlfriends, sisters, friends, mothers, wives, daughters, cousins, etc., don't do such things...they will remain safe.

But it's not necessarily true.

And we will never have real equality for women until women are as free to be out drinking in a bar at 4 AM as men are.

[Solly Mack]

23. Exactly. It's the "good girl" thinking

It never happens to "good girls"

so if it happens to you, you must be a "bad" girl

so if I'm a "good girl", it can't happen to me - so I'm safe and those other girls must have been something I'm not (bad)
- so they get what happens to "bad girls"...and as long as I obey the rules of patriarchal thinking and adhere to a paternalistic gender role assignment, I'm safe.

It's pure unadulterated sexist codswallop...

It takes some mighty deep denial (and rationalization) to blame the victim.

[Lindacooks]

22. THANK YOU!!!!! Did you know that false reporting of rape is

about 2%, the amount for any crime? That means that 98% of rapes that are reported are real. And that number is vastly, VASTLY smaller than the actual number of rapes committed, simply because women who speak up are vilified.

[LostinVA]

27. Yeah, but what do you often hear on certain threads

"False allegations"... over and over again.... when, 1.) it's very rare, and 2.) rape is so underreported, it sure as hell is less than 2% of actual rapes...

Many men don't realize that almost every single women has at least been sexually assaulted -- even if it's not rape. And, I'll say out of all the women I know who have dated men, at l,east 50% have told me they were date raped. And, who knows about the other 50%?

Of course all men aren't rapists or have that mentality. But it is disturbing when victims are almost automatically disbelieved because of a minuscule few trying to get back at their boyfriends.

(and, how many false allegations are about stranger rape? Hmmm? Probably very few... and then, it's probably more misidentification than falsification)

NEVER would you hear someone on DU (except an obvious Freeper Troll) say: "That black dude who got beat up and set on fire by those Skinheads? How do you know he didn't call them honky or something. He could have been asking for it. Just standing there looking all belligerent. Those Skinheads were probably tricked into beating him up." Sounds silly, huh?

[wryter2000]

43. "Of course all men aren't rapists or have that mentality. "

Bingo! Can't the assholes see that if they excuse the creeps, they're insulting men who care about women and treat them well?

[LostinVA]

48. It's actually really simple, isn't it?

[porphyrian]

90. I don't agree. It's not that simple.

I am an asshole, but I'm not a rapist, and I don't tolerate that kind of behavior in others. No one I associate with does. A disturbing percentage of the women I'm friends with have been raped, usually by family members. It's a large extended group. None of them are rapists or tolerate rape (unless someone's an award-deserving actor with a double life). Why are we responsible for men who do rape? Rapists are responsible for raping, and transferring that blame is not going to solve the problem any faster.

[raccoon]

45. Exactly, Lost, even here in DU, you see this,

"False allegations"... over and over again.... when, 1.) it's very rare, and 2.) rape is so underreported, it sure as hell is less than 2% of actual rapes...

So many focus on that small percentage.

" And, I'll say out of all the women I know who have dated men, at least 50% have told me they were date raped."

A LOT of date rape goes on, and always has. I remember when I was in sixth or seventh grade a man was talking to us at school about dating, and he said, "The girl sets the pace."

That's true if he's a decent guy. If he's an insensitive asshole with the idea that he's entitled to get a piece any way he can, all bets are off.

I believe a lot of men (NOT all) think of a date as a contest. If they have sex, he wins and she loses. If they don't have sex, she wins and he loses. Just as if it were arm wrestling.

[Nobody]

24. I hope that guy meets Lorena Bobbit in a dark alley somewhere

But seriously, I wonder if all this "she's a slut" defense of rape ties into what's going on in the nation with regard to the more and more restrictive abortion laws.

DS passed a law that outlaws all abortions, several states are appalled and want to put in a rape exception clausefor their own restictive laws. And now look at all the "Rape is OK if she ever said yes once" garbage.

Do you suppose they want to set it up so that the rape exception clause can never be used? Do you suppose that they think the small reporting rate there is is too high and that NO rapes should be reported?

The "she's a slut" defense of rape pisses me off. I don't care how many times a woman has had sex, it doesn't entitle Dick Schitt to anything. If Dick Schitt is the only guy she ever said no to, she is still entitled to say no and she is still entitled to make that no stick.

Rapists need to pay for committing felonies. Rape is a felony. There is never a justification for it. You can kill in self-defense, but you can't rape in self-defense.


(on edit: haven't had my caffeine yet and really blew a statistic. Oops)

[LostinVA]

28. I think rape should be life in prison without parole. Period.

It's an extremely violent crime ALWAYS committed by a sociopath. Nice guys don't rape. Even not-nice guys don't necessarily rape. Sociopaths do. And sociopaths can't be rehabbed.

And nice guys don't defend rapists.

[Nobody]

30. Agreed. It's one of the few instances where I would also

support the death penalty. Rapists and child molesters are almost guaranteed to reoffend when they get out.

Even child molesters who do go through counseling have to stay away from children. Given the opportunity, they WILL rape again.

(Why they water down child molestation by calling it molestation and not RAPE when the same thing applied to an adult woman would be called rape boggles my mind.)

[LostinVA]

33. I agree with the semantics thing

It's rape. It's sexual assault. Not molestation. Like being a "Peeping Tom." Why the cutsie term for a sicko sexual act that is guaranteed to escalate into rape? Rapists don't start out raping -- they start out by molesting, being "Peeping Toms," etc.

What so many people don't get is that these people are SOCIOPATHS. They don't think what they go is wrong. They have no real conscience. These aren't like people who may rob a bank, or even beat some one up. Or even murder someone. Not every murderer is a sociopath. Most criminals can technically eb rehabbed. Sociopaths can't.

When you release them, they WILL do it again. Serial rapists? Child rapists? How many times do you read in the news that they had severed time for the same thing? Always. Kids and women who are abducted, raped, murdered? The perps ALWAYS have priors for violence against women, sexual assault, child rape, etc. Always. Because people don't just start doing this. They need to stay imprisoned for the rest of their lives.

make drugs legal and let out some of the pot people.... lots of room for the REAL criminals, then.

[vickitulsa]

53. EXACTLY, Lost! That's what made me a felon, just pot, and it was

my ex, not me, who had a tiny little dealing bidness going on. I was angry at the ex for not speaking up and saying it was he who was selling, not the wife they scooped up with him in their farcical "raid." But after serving four months in the state pen -- just like my ex did even though he had three charges to my one -- I decided it really was only "The System" that was to blame. And one criminal judge -- who was a few years later removed from the bench for his illegal behavior!

He sentenced us both to "hard time" even though (1) it was a first offense for us, (2) the Probation & Parole Office wrote very positive reports and recommended probation for us, and (3) we each performed 80 hours of community service BEFORE our sentencing and were already paying off our fines!

So I know for a fact what it's like on the "Inside" ... and people would be shocked if they knew -- really KNEW. That judge asked us before he sentenced us, "Do you know what percentage of convicts are in prison for drug-related crimes?"

We stood mute, having been advised not to rise to any bait questions this particular judge was known for asking only to rip the respondent a new one for an attempt to reply. So he answered himself: "Ninety-percent!" He repeated it, shouting it.

Then when I got to the "big house" and discovered what sort of people were there, causing facilities to bulge at the seams and providing inhumane living conditions, I had to agree that he was probably pretty close. Problem is, this situation exists for the WRONG REASONS! It's because they've made so many drugs illegal that shouldn't be and have wasted our tax dollars on a phony "Drug War" that nets our society nothing but tragedy! What I saw in prison were regular folks much like myself in most ways. Non-scary and often scared, beaten-down women (and men in many cases) who committed the sin of being poor and resorting to petty crime to just survive, or else they were caught using or selling some illegal drug ... or writing a hot check to get merchandise they could hock to get a drug, and so on.

If we de-criminalized pot alone and released all those in our jails and prisons serving time just for that one "drug," there would be PLENTY of room on the Inside for the truly dangerous criminals who do great harm to our fellow citizens and to our society!

Oh, and guess what happens to a woman when she is sent to prison? She is helpless to prevent rape at the hands of guards and sometimes other inmates!

Yessir, we got us a real fine, democratic, just, and righteous "System" here in the good ole U.S. of A., we shorely do! ...........

[pitohui]

57. death penalty a death sentence for victims

we used to have the death penalty for rape in many states in the early/mid 20th century

it proved to be a death penalty for victims, why leave a woman alive to be a witness if the penalty for murder is the same as the penalty for rape and the chance of being convicted is less if the woman is dead

be careful what you wish for, you may get it

[Nobody]

78. Once again I ask: Should he get away with committing a FELONY?

Rape is a felony. Rape is a violent crime without any justification whatsoever. Rape is a crime where the offender WILL if allowed back out into society reoffend.

You don't punish a rapist, he is just going to go back out there and rape another woman. Or a child. And he will keep on raping until someone somewhere either kills him or puts him away for good.

Once again I think that the penalty for rape should be worse than the penalty for murder. Rape is not a property crime (which it used to be long long ago before women were accorded status as fully human). Rape is an assault. It is an assault that destroys body and soul.

So if we don't punish rapists to the fullest extent of laws we already have (with or without the death penalty, however you may feel about the death penalty), WHAT SHOULD SOCIETY DO INSTEAD?

[pitohui]

58. again you sentence the rape victim to death

in many states the penalty for murder is life w.out parole, so if you make the penalty for rape the same as the penalty for murder, if the rapist has even a tiny grain of ability to reason then he will kill his victim and not leave a witness as his chance of being convicted goes down some and the penalty if caught is the same either way

[Nobody]

75. So what should we do? Let him get away with it?

Rape is a heinous violent crime that is never justified. The penalty should be worse than for murder in my book. Rapists reoffend unless they're carefully watched and given ongoing counseling. Murderers (depending on the kind of murder - psychopathic serial killers are usually identified as such and hopefully also put away forever) don't always.

I think woman should have martial arts training, that way she can have a fighting chance to escape without too much injury to herself. I have no sympathy with any injuries HE sustains as she fights back.

[LostinVA]

25. They come out of the woodwork on DU when these threads hit

Threads about rape, abortion, child support, etc. Not just sexism or ignorance, but good old-fashioned, All-American misogynism. And, when you call them, on it, you're male bashing, etc. The word "bitch" gets bandied about alot in these threads, too, and I've alerted on the use of "c*nt." The worst thing? Sometimes these people tend to be very long-time posters that have always seemed reasonable and liberal. Disheartening, and disgusting.

There are some REALLY great guys who always attack their lesser brethren on these threads (FredScuttle, Jukes, etc.)... and I give them a heart "huzzah" and a heartfelt "thank you."

[smirkymonkey]

80. Yes, and notice the lack of DU "liberal" men on this post jumping

in to offer support to the victim and condemn the perpetrators. The silence is deafening.

[Marie26]

109. Well, at least

they're not self-righteously jumping in to question the victim & accuse posters of "male-bashing." I guess that's an improvement.

[Marie26]

108. I silently think of them as

"The Jerk Brigade". As in, "Oh, great, here comes the jerk brigade." You are absolutely right about that. I've often been shocked at the open misogyny here & sometimes it seems like a DU problem, but sometimes it seems like that's just how most men are.

[IndyOp]

31. Defense: Majority women juries are less likely to convict on rape

Defensive attributions are when we blame people for something bad that has happened to them to reassure ourselves it won't happen to us...

Women engage in blaming the victim so they can feel as if it would not happen to them.

Men engage in blaming the victim so they can feel it won't happen to their wives/daughters and because many (1/3 all college men) admit to having used 'physical pressure/verbal threats to get sex.' At least 1 in 10 have 'forced a woman to have sex.' Ask them if they have committed rape and they will say 'no' -- but they admit to having 'forced a woman to have sex.'

Access to online porn is changing 'tastes' from nude pictures to porn with aggression/violence and this porn is linked to sexual violence. Add drugs & alcohol to the mix and we have a 'rape epidemic' on our hands.

The current political/religious attempts to take away contraception & abortion fuel the belief that women who have sex outside of marraige are sluts who deserve the bad things that happen to them -- and, of course, rape doesn't happen to married women. :sarcasm:

It is a perfect storm. :(

[salin]

38. sad commentary

sadly rings true :(

[mongo]

49. It's sad

That you would take such a serious subject as rape and use it to spread propaganda:

Access to online porn is changing 'tastes' from nude pictures to porn with aggression/violence and this porn is linked to sexual violence.

There is absolutely no conclusive evidence of a link between porn and violence. What's more millions of responsible adults enjoy adult entertainment, and do not then go out and commit sexual crimes.

It's really sad that you would take a person who may be pre-disposed to commit rape or other sexual crimes, and then bring in porn as a convenient scapegoat to blame instead of the perpetrator of a crime.

[vickitulsa]

54. Yeah, keep tellin' yourself (and everyone you talk to) that, Mongo,

but I don't think you're gonna get a rise to your baited argument on this thread....

I've read your posts before, and a few times is plenty for me. You have your opinion -- and it IS just YOUR OPINION -- and we have ours. Why don't you leave it at that or post something more in line with the true spirit of the OP here, eh?

It's so obvious you have a financial stake in promoting porn, so why should we believe anything you say on the matter? Hmmm??....

[Lilith Velkor]

76. Did men rape women before porn existed?

If so, what made them do it?

[mongo]

93. No, the fact is

that there has never been shown to be a causal link between porn and violence.

But keep reading the same old studies that have been debunked, because you know that if a man is more likely to give a woman facilitator (who is insulting the man at the time BTW) a shock after watching porn, he is more likely to rape in the real world. (No matter that other studies have shown that the attitude the facilitator presents to the subject is the most likely determination of whether or not a shock will be administered)

It's so obvious you have a financial stake in promoting porn, so why should we believe anything you say on the matter? Hmmm??....

Gee, I don't know, maybe because I actually try to stay informed on the subject.

[Lindacooks]

95. Right on!!!

There's a reason I have him on ignore.

[mongo]

97. Because you prefer propaganda to facts?

[knitter4democracy]

65. There's porn, and then there's porn.

If violent video games have been shown to predispose young adults toward violent behavior (and several studies say there's a link), it seems reasonable to say that violent porn can do the same. Nonviolent porn isn't what we're talking about--porn that simulates (or actually films) rape, gang rape, or horribly violent acts against women and children is.

[Lilith Velkor]

77. Were young adults ever violent before videogames existed?

If so, what made them do it?

[knitter4democracy]

79. The studies take that into account, from what I've read.

It's an issue of violence level and feelings about it, from the stuff I've read. Apparently, there's a reason the military uses video games in its training--it can help desensitize people to violence and help them commit violent acts with fewer problems afterwards. The studies only say it's possible or that it can happen, and I was careful to say that there only seems to be a link, not a causality.

[Lilith Velkor]

84. What is the link between entertainment and reality?

What are these condemnations of porn and video games doing in a discussion of real violence and rape?

Do you have any idea how insensitive that sounds?

[knitter4democracy]

85. I certainly did not mean to offend.

I thought we were talking about possible reasons behind the behavior, though. Part of the thread started to go in the direction of why is that stuff happening to us, and we were discussing that, I thought. This was in no way to equate a video game with a rape in real life, just a question of why some people would think that it's okay to hurt another person.

If you had read upthread, I've had stuff happen to me, too. I would certainly never want to diminish what happened to me or to anyone else. My SIL was raped last summer by a friend of a friend using a date rape drug, and I would never want to be insensitive about that in any way shape or form. What happened to me was mild in comparison, but I still needed therapy to deal with it, and she's in a shame spiral about hers.

I am wondering why you're attacking me for simply asking why the behavior occurs and why some people seem so desensitized and withdrawn from humanity that it's okay to hurt another person in such an intimate, core-shaking way. Why, in today's day and age, do some people seem to think that it's okay to hurt another person in fun or to reach climax or for whatever reason floats through their mind at the time? How can they not hear the pain in the victim's voice and body language, just ignoring or pushing it out of their heads? Maybe all the ways we maintain our disconnect from our fellow human beings, through video and video games (alone in our own dark rooms watching a simulated act), have something to do with it.

[mongo]

92. So you admit that all you have is ancedotal evidence

and I bet all the same people also drank milk, so I could show a causal link between milk consumption and violence.

[knitter4democracy]

99. I was talking about studies, not my own anecdotal evidence.

Sociologists are trusted in other areas, but not this one?

[mongo]

114. Well, I guess it depends on which sociologists you want to believe

Sorry that not all the original links in this are preserved, they are easy enough to find though...

Feminists for Free Expression counter the argument that pornography promotes violence against women by stating that, "Studies in the U.S., Europe and Asia find no link between the availability of sexual material and sex crimes. The only factor linked to rape rate is the number of young men living in a given area. When pornography became widely available in Europe, sexually violent crimes decreased or remained the same. Japan, with far more violent pornography than the U.S., has 2.4 rapes per 100,000 people compared with the U.S. 34.5 per 100,000". People who say that porn is responsible for the many violent attacks that take place on women every year are probably the same people who claim that rock music makes kids shoot their classmates. There are evil people in this world who are going to do these things whether or not porn exists and, in this modern 'blame culture' of ours, some people are just determined to find someone or something to take the flak for it.

http://www.thefword.org.uk/features/2003/12/the_feminis...

What if you went looking for the harmful effects of the very worst kinds of pornography -- and they weren't there?

That's what happened to Canada Customs when it paid researchers to study customs officials who spend up to 15 hours a week reading and viewing material that goes well beyond erotica or even so-called hard-core porn.

Noted the researchers: "Their work most often focuses on materials of an extreme nature which deal with clearly unacceptable sexual activities such as incest, children in a sexual context, necrophilia, bestiality, and sex involving violence, bondage and degradation." Their study of 90 officers found:

* repeated exposure to such graphic pornography had little or no measurable harmful effect on the officers, 40 per cent of whom were female.

* only half of the customs officers who regularly review graphic pornographic books, magazines and films support banning sexual materials featuring violence and degradation -- the current Canadian law.

* one in six of the customs officers use pornography in their private lives; nearly half have in the past.

http://www.efc.ca/pages/media/ottawa.citizen.21sep96.ht...

Of course, if porn really is such a danger to society, the effort might be worth it. The problem is, the research doesn’t support the worry. And if recent studies by Danish psychologist Gert Martin Hald of the University of Aarhus stand up, it’s not likely to.

Hald recently conducted a yet-to-be-published study on the usage of porn by men and women in Denmark that showed porn has become a part of the sexual lives of most people.

In a representative sampling of 688 young people aged 18 to 30, he found that 98 percent of men and 80 percent of women had viewed porn. About half of those women used it at least once per month. Men used it much more often. About 38 percent of men used it three times per week or more, which makes you wonder what these guys do for a living.

We’re not talking Playboy, either. Hald didn’t count such images as pornography. For the purposes of the study, porn included “any kind of material which aims to create or enhance sexual feelings or thoughts in the recipient and, at the same time, (a) contains explicit exposure and/or descriptions of the genitals and (b) clear and explicit sexual acts such as vaginal intercourse, anal intercourse, oral sex, masturbation, bondage, sadomasochism, rape..." (Interestingly, this is pretty close to the definition used in many obscenity statutes.)

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9504659 /

The "Danish experience" is often held up as good example.

In 1969 Denmark lifted all restrictions on pornography, and sex crimes declined. For example, between 1965 and 1982 sex crimes against children went from 30 per 100,000 to about 5 per 100,000. Similar evidence was found for rape rates.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1986869.stm

[knitter4democracy]

119. Thank you. I hadn't see those.

It will make for interesting reading, that's for sure. I wonder if there's something about porn that makes its viewers less likely to act, as they have sated their need to see it.

Honestly, I'm not sure about all of this. One study says one thing, one study says another, and it's hard to generalize to the whole population. Violence does seem to beget violence, though, and we know that too damn many women are raped every year. It's hard to know what the answer is.

[mongo]

120. There have been studies that suggest

that access to porn may make some less likely to act, but no conclusive results on that.

Thing is, most porn is non-violent. And even BDSM porn, when done well, isn't really violence.

that too damn many women are raped every year.

here we agree 100%. But the problem of rape has been going on long before porn. Porn becomes a convienent scapegoat, especially for people who knew their attackers and don't want to put the blame on them.

[knitter4democracy]

121. That's a good point, too.

Far too many know their attackers and just don't want to admit that he or she is that f'd up in the head or can be that evil. They need something else to blame. Unfortunately, many tend to blame themselves, though, and we need to fight that.

You're right that the vast majority of porn is non-violent. That is true from what I hear and read. I'm not a big porn fan, but what I've seen is pretty harmless.

[Marie26]

104. What I really resent

is that an atmosphere has been created in which women cannot even discuss these issues freely without the usual suspects showing up to shout them down. And yes, Mongo, I'm talking about you. You, and others, seem to show up almost exclusively on these types of threads to talk about how porn is a good thing, women are too sensitive, on and on and on. Sometimes women, especially victims of violence, need a place where they can find support & comfort w/o constantly being put on the defensive.

[mongo]

113. In other words

any mention of the other side, pointing out propaganda, etc. is "shouting them down".

Ever heard of such a thing as a "discussion" board?

[wicket]

39. As a survivor....thank-you so much

:hug:

[wryter2000]

41. My experience

I was raped in my apartment by a stranger. I didn't want to look him in the face, and he put a pillow over my head while he got his jollies. I didn't get a good look at him. Because I took the charge very seriously, I told the police I could only guess when I looked at the line-up.

One of the police officers told me "You're better off if you don't have to testify because the defense lawyer will try to put it all on you because you live in a bad part of town and maybe the guy saw you wearing a short skirt."

That was in 1968, and I thought attitudes had changed. Not so. That crappy attitude is still everywhere. It's sickening.

[vickitulsa]

66. I've wondered how I'd handle it, to the degree I had ANY control

at all, if I were the victim of a home-invasion stranger-rapist. Would I purposely avoid looking at his face in hopes of preserving my life? Would I fight like a crazed, cornered rat or tone down my resistance thinking it might draw a less severe assault from him? Would I be able to control my own reaction at all?

Honestly, Wryter, I just don't know; and I admit this scenario is at the heart of a subdued, silent (till now) dread I have felt for most of my life. I don't consciously dwell on the possibility, but I'm careful -- VERY careful now that I'm older (56) and disabled to boot and could not fight back worth a damn anyway.

But even the most careful people cannot be assured of safety from determined rapists, I'm thinking.

Somehow, though, just the THOUGHT of a rapist coming into my very own home to get me is so very unnerving....

I know I'm posting a lot on this thread -- sorry, folks, it's obviously an important subject for me; but also I just want every one of you who report having been raped to know someone heard what you said and cares enough to respond to your story. I think I'm meeting some very courageous women here on DU for the first time! I may have read your posts elsewhere previously, but now I know one very important new thing about you, and IT MATTERS to me.

[Pathwalker]

42. A woman is raped every TWO MINUTES in America.

Sadly, some sick people think that's not enough victimization for her - they have to compound that injury by questioning whether or not the attack even ocurred, or ask...if she enjoyed it!!!
Makes you want to beat them upside the head with a cast iron skillet, while asking them...do you enjoy this? WHAM! Is this fun? BOING! Are you getting excited? BANG! How about now? CRACK! Tell me when you're ready to..WHACK!

[Skinner]

47. That is a very disturbing story.

If anyone posts something like "if it's old enough to bleed, it's old enough to breed" here on DU, please hit alert so the moderators can deal with it. If the moderators are made aware of it, such a post would get deleted, and would almost certainly earn the person who posted it a tombstone.

[MissB]

59. Thank you for the reassurance, Skinner.

Really, there was a thread a few weeks ago that was locked where that mentality popped up. The person suggested that a 45 year old man having sex with a 15 year old girl wasn't rape, age-of-consent laws in 48 out of 50 states apparently be damned.

I think it is the mentality rather than the actual wording. That particular thread was locked, but the poster wasn't tombstoned.

[salin]

83. Frankly, the expressions are much more passive/covert than this

but they continue... assertions that false accusations are a) more prevalent than the incident of rape (very untrue - no statistics back that up)... or that the harm of a false accusation is WORSE than the harm of a rape. Then there are "innocent" framed questions related to cases to try to make a case seem innocent - that on the surface are hard to act upon an alert... the "is it a crime to say one is going to kill and skin someone.. if there is no intent?" A direct reference to a real correspondance of one who was at least present in an alleged violent rape. Framed as "an honest discussion"... and those of us who are deeply affected by such attitudes (esp those of us who have been raped and recognize that a community acceptance of attitudes that minimizes restraints on attitudes that help, societally perpetuate a culture in which one in three women are likely to be raped between the ages of 15 and 35)... we really don't expect an alert to do much, not because mods and admin aren't sympathetic - but b/c the thread is framed in such a covertly hostile way that it looks like "honest discussion". I think the question is less about why the discussions are allowed (per not nuked by mods) - as those discussions hover on the edge of acceptability - and instead the question is to the larger community - why are such discussions engaged in - and thus condoned... and by some discussants, encouraged - and what does that say about our culture (beyond DU) per continuing a culture that frankly allows the perpetuation of a culture of 'boys will be boys'... to 'find ways to explain away the behavior of our boys' that leads some to act on impulses of violence against women. Over stated? Agaon stats suggest that to this day - more than two decades after I was raped - the rate is still has high... it is still as dangerous for women as ever.

Sorry to go on - but trying to give some context to the point of frustration with many ... and why the conversations continue - in the sesne that many of the discussions are on the edge and 'rationalizable' to which an 'alert' doesn't make sense - or seem fair (to put the mods in the situation of making the call on multiple borderline threads/posts) - but that it is more a commentary per the community that we entertain the discussions and keep them alive (and thus pander to the sentiments) rather than just ignore them such that the threads just die/go straight to the archives.)

[lukasahero]

86. Wow - phenomenal post.

Thank you for spending the time to lay it out there like that.

[Marie26]

107. It happens

I remember a couple posters arguing that the US should lower the age of consent to 8 years old, like other "enlightened" countries. (Iran) Usually it is not that blatant, but a sense of minimization & justification comes through.

[slide to the left]

50. It has been my dream

to start a public service campaign about how rape is not the victim's fault and that it is a crime and should be reported. I want to take away the fear that rape vics will be looked at as "sluts."

Rape is a crime.

[Chovexani]

62. I'm a survivor.

Thank you for this thread. I've pretty much stayed out of GD due to the sexist bullshit going on...maybe it's a cowardly thing to do but I'm just weary of slogging through the knuckledragger posts.

These rape threads are very telling.

[Nikki Stone 1]

68. Blaming the victim is the way that men and some women deal with rape

Men always see themselves as the guy who gets "turned down" or "come on to" and, of course, it wasn't rape; it was consensual or close to consensual or she brought it on herself.

Some women are so terrified of it happening to them that they make themselves feel safer (with a false sense of control) by saying, "If only she hadn't been wearing/doing that in that particular time/place/vehicle, etc." As if controlling their own behavior was a deterrant against rape happening to them ever. What these women don't realize is that 70% of all the violence against women is perpetrated by men the woman knows: husbands, fathers, boyfriends, bosses, friends, etc.

Rape happens. It happens a lot more often than gets reported. Rapists often go free for any number of reasons.

Until rape gets REALLY punished, there are no human rights. Because women's rights are human rights.

[windy252]

69. My opinion

is that, in some cases, at least on the male end, it can be due to bitterness.

[cushla_machree]

70. always the same

My mother had a friend in college, back in the 70s. She was gang raped by a group of 5 black men on her way home from work. They took her to an abandoned factory, and she escaped by jumping out the window and running for help.

Of course the guys got off, because she had previously dated a black man. So obviously, she wanted to be dragged into an old factory and brutally raped. Within a year the group of boys raped another girl.

I don't understand this 'slutty' thing. How does that hold up in court? It makes no sense to me, woman who have sex deserve to be brutalized? Its sickening.

[windy252]

71. I thought there were already laws

dealing with that sort of testimony. Was I mistaken in this?

[vickitulsa]

81. There are certain legal "rules" about what sorts of testimony

can come into a trial, I know that much. Also, I'd suspect there are different laws in the various states on this point.

It's probably a matter of where you live, what the rules of evidence and laws are there as of right now (some could be changing as we speak). Also depends on the particular lawyers the plaintiff and defense both have, how they prefer to try a case, AND what the presiding judge's practices are in any individual instance.

I suspect that more progressive areas of the country have made at least some effort toward creating more sensible and fair laws to reduce or disallow admitting testimony that smears, trashes, demeans, and attacks the victim. Obviously the accused have a right to a defense, but it should NOT be at the expense of justice and fairness in the courtroom!

Picture this: A future time when a woman who finds herself in a car alone with a man is being pressured verbally and physically to give in or possibly be hurt. She tells him, "If you don't STOP RIGHT NOW and take me back to my car, I will file sexual assault charges against you! Including rape charges if necessary!"

And he stops immediately and complies without argument and maybe even with a big apology because he KNOWS he could easily be convicted and serve time! Not only that, he also knows he will be shunned and condemned by his fellows from the moment word gets out that he is charged with a sexual crime, up to and including rape.

Hard to imagine? Yep.... but I still hope!

[bloom]

89. It's a bad day

when judges decide to allow the trashing of the victim. Though often it is done in the media - and on the Internet of public opinion.


To your second point - I heard of one rapist who told his victim he was going to do that whether he went to jail that night or not. And then his lawyer tried the defense that his client didn't know what he was doing - unable to understand the consequences, etc. He lost.

[shanti]

72. i also know of

a rape victim, a friend of mine. she and a girlfriend were raped at gun and knifepoint by 2 strangers in a hotel room for hours. a female accomplice of the rapists set them up by luring them into a room. my friend was traveling on business and had a drink in the hotel bar (don't even go there; there was nothing untoward about it.) she had just been chatting with them.

the perps walked because of a TECHNICALITY!! :grr: you just don't get over things like that!!

[sproutster]

73. God you beautiful people - Thank you

Not even sure how to respond on this thread that I started. I guess I would hope that we continue to give rape a voice.

Everyone and anyone on this thread that has no negatives (wow) ... You are beautiful to me. :)

[bee]

82. Im very surprised to hear this. Ive never seen anything like that here.

Theres no excuse for that mentality. no excuse. :hug:

[Cats Against Frist]

87. It is never the victim's fault -- that said

as easily as we liberals can place collective guilt on whole swaths of people, (much with which I agree), I do submit that women deserve some collective guilt for how they are treated. Why? Well, first -- the obvious. Any woman that works in the sex industry provides the warm bodies necessary to perpetuate the violent narratives and the power imbalance. Second, any woman who takes her "socially acceptable" cues from the culture of pornography (i.e., body hair shaving, lingerie, provocative clothing, etc.), perpetuates the underlying narratives and provides the kind of trashy ubiquity that allows the pornography culture to flourish. I am a feminist, but you will find no third-wave feminist, here. Every woman who submits to the culture of porn is an affront, and a danger to me and all other women who have either come through it, come out of it, or got wise before they were affected by it. The burden lies not only on the rapists, but on the plebes, who are continually acting out and indoctrinating children into the narratives of pornography. I also blame the religious right, without whom the "taboo" factor would be minimized, dramatically.

[mongo]

96. Sigh.....

Isn't your "culture of porn" argument the same reason that women have to wear burkas in the middle east?

[Nobody]

100. I suppose that mentality means that it's OK to rob professionals

If they're selling it, it's just fine if you put a gun to the service provider's head and force them at gunpoint to provide the service they normally sell or give to the people of their choice. After all, they're going to provide the service anyway, so if you intimidate them, point guns at them, abduct them, or use other means of duress, you can get a professional to provide you their service without you having to pay them. How nice! And you don't even have to do it during normal business hours or even on their shift!

Your car break down? Just break into a mechanic's house at 3AM and haul him out of bed, blindfold him, drag him to where your car broke down and demand that he fix it right then and there for free.

Can't connect to the Internet? Go kidnap a computer techie. Yeah they're out of the biz, the government has been stamping them out, sending their jobs overseas, but if the person doesn't look like they get enough sun, it's a techie. Kidnap that person, drag them to your house and threaten them with death if they don't get you back online. They used to be computer techies, no, they can't deny it, they once took money for that service, so you're well within your rights to kidnap them and terrorize them into fixing your Internet problem.

No jury will ever convict you. After all everyone knows the professional does this stuff willingly all the time. And worse yet, for money.

Is this sounding bizarre? It should. After all, when someone murders a drug dealer who is committing crimes by dealing drugs, the murderer is still sought, brought to trial, and juries do not refuse to convict based on the victim being a drug dealer.

My point is: Rape is a felony and should be treated as such. Always, no matter who the victim is.

[Jade Fox]

110. The unrecognized factor here....

is this: The Sex Industry provides one of the highest income professions for women. In that regard, little has changed in spite of decades of Feminism. The Sex Industry also provides one of the few opportunities for women to feel power and control, due to the desperate nature of male fixation on sex. That power, however is illusory, and it masks the fact that sex workers are putting themselves in constant danger, from gang rapes on jobs to abuse at the hands of law enforcement.

I'm not really disagreeing with what you said. But the several former sex workers I know will respond when you ask why they did it:
"It was the best, easiest money I ever made."

[Cats Against Frist]

111. Right, but I could sell drugs or work in organized crime,

or smuggle drugs or young girls across the borders for the sex trade. I could net anywhere from $1,000 to $100,000 or more for a couple hours of work. That's easy money. I don't do it, because I'm not a fucking loser, and I have standards for what I do with my life, and what I do with my body. I feel the "easy money" angle is a cop-out, because you have to be a pretty high-maintenance hussy to need $500 a day to live on. Even with the child they all invariably have (who they're teaching that the selling of bodies is A-OK). Even "working my way through college" doesn't cut it. There are these things called "student loans." Or get a day job, for fuck's sake.

I have no sympathy, and zero tolerance for anyone who goes into the sex trade. If it wasn't for them, the rapists and the sick-os and the "normal nice guy" whose brain was rotted by the tyranny of the pornographic image might not be such a threat to women.

[Jade Fox]

112. I won't defend these women to you....

but life is a little more complicated that "just get a student loan". And after you've been a woman in the workforce for awhile watching others (mostly men) get paid big bucks for not much, the thought of making really good money for your work gets more and more appealing.

[Nobody]

115. And if a drug dealer were murdered

There would still be an investigation and there would still be a fair trial and the fact that the drug dealer trafficked in drugs would not make the murder less of a murder.

Rape is a felony, regardless of who it happens to and regardless of what the woman does to make enough money to live on.

[mongo]

116. Brilliant rhetoric!

I have no sympathy, and zero tolerance for anyone who goes into the sex trade. If it wasn't for them, the rapists and the sick-os and the "normal nice guy" whose brain was rotted by the tyranny of the pornographic image might not be such a threat to women.

That could have come straight from Karl Rove....

Because you know there was no rape before porn.

[Samurai_Writer]

88. From a rape survivor, thank you

Reading the threads about the Duke rapists and the responses from their apologists have been awful. To know that so many people here (mostly men) are still blaming rape victims makes me sick. I rarely venture out of the Feminists Group because of the rampant sexism and misogyny in GD.

[opihimoimoi]

91. In the bible, if a married woman was raped...she was stoned to death...

[Nobody]

101. I'm very glad that we do't use the bible as a basis for our laws

Because in the bible, rape was a property crime, not an assault. The victim was the father or husband of the woman, not the woman herself. In Leviticus, if the victim was her father (because she wasn't married) she had to marry the rapist.

Can you imagine the horror of having to live with the guy that raped you? I can think of few other worse horrors.

[laureloak]

94. Ahhh... you left out the word ALLEGED!

We don't even know IF a crime has been committed.

[dflprincess]

102. Why is rape the only crime where "alleged" is used

not only when referring to the perp ("so and so is alleged to have raped"), but when describing the victim? If my purse or my car was stolen I wouldn't be referred to as the "alleged victim", but if I was raped, I would be.

I once complained to the Minneapolis Star Tribune about this when they referred to a teenage girl who had been raped and so badly beaten she was in the hospital as the "alleged victim". The Reader's Rep I spoke to was an old fart (judging from his picture in the paper) who told me that, until there was a conviction, one couldn't say a crime had been committed. I pointed out that was true only of the accused, but this girl was certainly a victim of some kind of crime and, if we were to follow his logic, a person who has been murdered is only "allegedly murdered" if the murderer is never convicted. He told me that wasn't logical and rape was "different".

[salin]

118. where his logic falls apart is who/what is tagged with the word

"alleged". It is fair to say that x or y who is accused of the crime is the "alleged" perp until conviction - but where there is evidence that the crime occurred it is not an "alleged" crime. Perhaps the nature of the crime of rape is often viewed as a he said/she said thing (not always true, but how it is often viewed) - the language of "alleged" began to be played to the event even when there is evidence that a rape did occur. ??

[bobbieinok]

103. had an interesting and hopefully helpful discussion a few years ago

somehow it came up in my college class that there was such a thing as marital rape.....one young man just couldn't seem to grasp that such a thing was possible; like, people get married so they can have sex, right? (most of the students came from conservative/fundamentalist backgrounds).......finally after several women kept repeating that even if married, if the woman says no, she means NO.....and if the husband does indeed love her he WILL believe her and stop; if he continues, it IS rape....and the young man did understand b/c he assumed he would only marry if he truly loved his wife and he would never want to harm her or upset her

[momophile]

105. of five women in my family, four of us have been assaulted

Two rapes, one child molestation, and then me - very almost raped. But it has always seemed like I might have well been raped, because I have struggled with it for almost 17 years now. And I definitely played the blame game for years. And sadly, when I told my mother years after the fact, she said, "what did you do to deserve that?" What makes it worse is that I went to her because my sister told me that my mom had been raped when she was younger. I thought that I would be understood. Instead, I was blamed. Now I realize that my mom must still blame herself for her rape.

Thanks for bringing this up. Men aren't the only ones blaming women, and sometimes the women are doing the blaming because they are still hurt themselves.

[Nikia]

117. I think it is a bad sign that people treat rape victims this way

It really scares me.