Three things to remember about the Duke rape case.

[TheWraith]

There's been a pronounced lack of sanity around DU lately, stemming particularly from the Duke rape case. Speaking as somebody with an extensive knowledge of criminology, as well as simple reality, I think it would greatly restore calm to the place if everyone could agree on a few basic points of fact.

Yes, there are false rape charges, and considerably more of them than some people here want to believe. I'm sure everyone would be happier if no one ever filed false allegations, but it's a behavior that doesn't go away by magic just because we're talking about a sex crime. For that matter, this is hardly limited to rape cases: I've heard stories that would pin your ears back from divorce lawyers about people who will randomly make up stories about their spouse cheating, abusing their children, whatever they can in order to win custody or a more favorable settlement. Falsely accusing someone of a crime, particularly a heinous one, has been popular since five minutes after the first legal code was established, because it deliberately preys on the empathy and honesty of ordinary people, people who would never consider doing something so vile.

Yes, there are high-risk behaviors for rape, as there are for anything else. If I go walking down a street in a bad neighborhood loaded down with jewelry, I'm probably going to get mugged. Someday we may live in an ideal world where you can do whatever you want without any risk at all, but that's not here yet. That being the case, it's still no less criminal just because someone made a convenient target. I can leave my doors unlocked, but it's still illegal to carry off my possessions. Someone can walk down a street naked with the words "take me" scrawled on their back, but it's still a crime to rape them.

Any comprehensive investigation of an alleged crime is going to look at all possibilities, including that of the complaint being inaccurate or false. It's not revictimizing someone to investigate a case before seeking punishment, it's justice. History has proven that extensive investigation is very neccessary. There are well-known cases, and far more less-known ones, where a rape victim identified their attacker, and the person was convicted at trial, only to find new evidence sometimes years later that proved it could not have been the individual who was charged. This is what investigation and law enforcement are: the determination of whether a crime has been committed, and if so, who committed it. To draw conclusions, in whatever direction, from a gut feeling and a selective view of the evidence is tantamount to mob justice. Yes, I'm glaring at everyone on this.

To the people who are so fervently on the side of the accuser in the Duke case, if you really have a handle on reality, it should be easy for you to admit that these things are true without feeling that you're somehow undermining your cause. The only way that these facts would do that is if there were never any legitimate basis for rape accusations, which we all know isn't the case. It does far more damage to your credibility to insistantly push things which simply aren't true because you think that the slightest crack in your resolve equals defeat. This isn't a game of black and white, and it's not possible to win justice for past wrongs simply by being right about one dubious case somewhere in the Carolinas.

To everybody else, I advise patience and caution. We'll eventually find out what the real story is--until then, it would be advisible to lay off and let the thing develop. Jumping to premature conclusions never helps.

Of course, knowing the climate around DU lately, I'll probably get burned in effigy for saying any of these things.

[MADem]

1. The three things I remember about the case are as follows:

I am not the District Attorney.

I am not a defense attorney.

I wasn't there.

I'm not going to get sucked into the "no news" news about this matter. It will sort itself out eventually without my help!

[Plaid Adder]

4. There you go.

Nobody really knows except the people who were there. Certainly none of the people posting about this case here are in a position to know one way or the other. It's all just speculation, and the speculations are really just reflections of peoples' preconceptions, which is one of the reasons they so readily give rise to flamewars--people are really upset not so much by the opinion about who's guilty as by the preconceptions on which that opinion is inevitably based.

The positive thing about this is that it has led to some discussions about rape and sexual violence that are actually productive. But it has certainly produced more heat than light.

C ya,

The Plaid Adder

[KitchenWitch]

14. And add - I am not in the likely jury pool

[ContraBass Black]

18. Seconded!

[madeline_con]

2. "Yes, there are high-risk behaviors for rape ..."

Gosh, you almost said it, but not quite. Dare I?

Getting naked and dancing for drunken college boys, is that what you ALMOST said?

Neither of us knows what happened. We'll see...

[Inland]

16. "That being the case, it's still no less criminal..." was actually said.

eom

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. You made valid points

may I add that every time someone falsely accuses another of rape and it makes headlines, it may influence a woman who is rape not to report it, for fear she won't be believed. So any time someone lies about a rape, they are injuring the very cause of giving sympathy and support to rape victims.

That being said, I also well understand that the DA will also investigate the young men alleged to have been involved. Having dealt with "frat rats" and "jocks" in my younger years, I know that at least some hijinks involving these types of young men are "passed over" by the police, who chalk it up to "youthful indescretion". (BTW, I'm not talking rape here, but rather reckless behavior involving shooting out windows of an occupied house and nearly killing a relative of mine who was sitting near one of the windows; the boys said they were just playing around to see if they could scare the old lady. They got off with repairing the windows.)

[AX10]

5. Sounds familiar.

I know about these "frat boys" and "jock" types. They do stupid things and there is no justification for doing them.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

34. Actually, I think it's even worse than that:

Every time someone reports a rape, and it makes the headlines, I suspect it discourages other rape victims from coming forward - the last thing one wants in that situation is publicity, and the fact that there are *always* some people who attack the alleged victim makes it even less attractive - even if it ends in a conviction.

The responsible attitude for the media to take to rape would be to completely ignore any specific case until the trial is over, and usually even then, I think. potentially while drawing more attention to to the general statistics would also be good, but that's a separate thing. Unfortunately, lurid or sordid crimes sell papers.

I would sat that the reason lying about rape is especially bad (apart from the effect on the accused, which is the main thing, obviously) is not so much that it directly discourages victims from coming forward but that it makes juries less likely to convict in genuine cases (and thereby reduces the conviction rate, making victims know that there is less point in coming forwards).

[FiveGoodMen]

6. Thank you!

:applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause:

[mondo joe]

7. What a logical and thoughtful post. I pity you.

Thanks and condolences!

[DIKB]

8. Avoid the emotional judgement.

I know it's easy to empathize with the victim, to automatically get angry at the accused.

Some think she's lying and automatically start calling the woman a "drunken stripper" saying that she lied, etc.

I, personally, KNOW how damaging false accusations can be. A friend of mine, during divorce proceedings, was accused of abusing his daughter by his soon to be ex. There were no bruisings, markings, or evidence of a history of abuse. The ex-wife coached the daughter to make false claims, fortunately the babysitter asked the daughter if her mother TOLD her to say that, and the daughter happily said yes (she was about 4 years old, and guessing her thoughts amused her).

I also have been accused of attempted rape. No such thing happened, evidence, facts, and witnesses were all on my side. The accuser is a pathological liar and made up details, nonexistant door locks, forced acts, etc.

I also have friends who have been raped. It was a real eye-opener to be accused and innocent, I had never truly considered that position before. Yet, in this matter, I take no side. Like the OP says, if we wait the facts will sort themselves out.

[frustrated_lefty]

9. Excellent post!

You'll still probably be burned in effigy. :eyes: Nice post, though, concise and to the point.

[Berry Cool]

10. A reasonable, balanced post.

I think there is a whole lot in this situation that we don't know about. I have adopted a wait-and-see attitude myself.

[wakeme2008]

11. What IF

The stripper was white, and it was a group of poor college black men. With all the evidence so far that has come out (DNA/Photos/etc) pointing to the black college men being innocent, IMHO DU members would be supporting the men.....

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

13. With All Due Respect, There Is All Sorts Of Tones Of Racism In That.

Not sure if you meant to come off as a racist, but ya did to me.

[wakeme2008]

17. IMHO a lot of the "support" the female is getting is ONLY because

she is a poor black female, and these were rich white students. IMHO if the tables were turn, so would the majority of the support on DU change.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

21. And I Want To Be Clear On Something,

I'm not calling you racist because you think the players are innocent. I'm just saying that the strength and tone of your comment came across as somewhat racially biased.

As far as their guilt or her allegations are concerned, I'm totally on the fence with it. So much of the evidence presented through the media has been extremely weak at best. But there may very well be stronger evidence not yet known yet, which I think is quite reasonable to suspect with the recent arrests. But until those facts come out, I'm not going to take up a strong position on either side. And let it be known, that race in this matter means not a goddamn thing to me. I'd wager that my fellow DU brothers and sisters by an overwhelming majority could give a rats fat ass about what race she is. Granted, there are some that do and overdramatize their arguments based on it, but overall DU'ers are passionate about this issue based more on the severity that comes with rape charges, not because of the alleged victim's race.

JMHO

[wakeme2008]

26. How many times have you read DUers bitching about their tire of

hearing about the blond girl in Aruba. She was probably raped and murdered.

[The Animator]

19. Speaking as a former poor college kid...

There's no way in hell, truley poor college kids could afford a stripper who makes house calls. Even if four roomates pooled whatever money they didn't spend on ramen noodles, together they'd be lucky to get one decent lap dance out of the deal.

[wakeme2008]

20. there were a lot more guys than four

and some where sons of 9-11 cops. But I am sure some were very rich.

[jbnow]

28. These kids could afford it

though that does not make them guilty (or innocent)

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/04/18/duke.suspects.ap/

Duke suspects share privileged backgrounds

GARDEN CITY, New York (AP) -- They grew up in privileged surroundings in the suburbs of New York City.

Collin Finnerty of Long Island and Reade Seligmann of New Jersey both come from a world of golf courses and multimillion-dollar homes and were educated at exclusive all-boys Catholic prep schools.

Their paths merged after the high school lacrosse stars won admission to Duke University, where they shared an off-campus home with their teammates.

The article notes one did have a previous charge for gay bashing that would have been dropped (which does not make him guilty or innocent of rape)
According to court documents, Finnerty was arrested six months ago in Washington, D.C., after an alleged gay-bashing incident. Jeffrey Bloxgom said Finnerty and two of his high school teammates hurled anti-gay insults and punched him repeatedly.

[Inland]

12. I just stay away from media coverage of high profile cases:

1) I am creeped out by the treatment of it as a sporting event with sides and strategy

2) There's no rush to guess at the facts, given that there IS going to be a trial

3) No amount of watching cable is going to give you any reliable information

4) It's wrong to second guess juries based on news reports


In these high profile cases, there's an army of lawyers paid to look at every little detail. Unlike your run of the mill criminal case, no expense is being spared. It's in good hands. I'll let the system work.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

15. Very Well Laid Out Reasoning. No Effigy Burning Here.

But those that do, fear them not, for they are already so burned by their own narrow-mindedness, self-hatred and bitterness that they probably deserve pity moreso than anger in response.

[marions ghost]

22. the value of all this

Touchy issues like the Duke rape case bring up discussion about things that are ordinarily swept under the rug. We have heard from victim advocates, defenders of the defendants, and those calling for sticking strictly to the middle ground. We have also heard from rape victims themselves and people who have worked with them.

So it's safe to say that many of us here may have learned something. But this would not happen if we always proceeded with patience and caution, and left cases such as this up to the legal 'experts.' Rape is a SOCIETAL problem--NOT just a legal problem. This topic is worthy of the amount of discussion that has ensued here at DU. This is our town square, our backyard fence. Where else would you have us go, other than silenced?

OP--Your post is NOT neutral. You are another advocate for the accused. And you DO deserve to have your say in defense of them. However this is hardly "one dubious case somewhere in the Carolinas." It doesn't matter where it is--it could be Anywhere USA. That's the point...rape and accusations of rape are everywhere, and the more we talk about the problem the better. So please don't advise us to "lay off."

[etherealtruth]

31. I agree with you about the value of the entire conversation ...

I don't know about the guilt or innocence of the accused, I have no clue about the character of the woman that has accused them ...like you, I believe the crime of rape and the acceptance of victim vilification (not case specific)are very important issues and are very deserving of discussion.

[Mandate My Ass]

35. yes, the first point paints anybody who complains about the misogyny

of the discussion as insane and sets up rape as an overreported, rather than drastically and tragically underreported crime that it is. And the second point places the responsibility for victimization squarely on the shoulders of the alleged victim.

Both of these viewpoints contribute to rape being a vastly underreported crime, not to mention a crime with a phenomenally low conviction rate. That said, I still believe in innocent until proven guilty and the burden of proof rests on the prosecution. But, this poster, as you noted, is clearly a defendant advocate while chiding the rest of us if we have a differing view.

Nobody knows what happened. By setting up one's argument against one side while claiming cool-headed neutrality, is absolute and total horseshit.

[PetraPooh]

36. Since most of the posts in the other threads that don't whole-heartedly

support the threads are being deleted or antagonized. I think the TheWraith in his opening statement is referrencing not "rape" but the tone and extreme nature of the responses within the threads found here on DU. In that regard, he is right on. They are one sided, anyone who disagrees or tries to suggest a calmer response, or a more rational outlook is either deleted or flamed; though the response flames are all still there. There is a complete lack of sanity and a complete lack of discussion. They are rants that are somehow being treated as gospel.

The misrepresentation of that seems to be "total horseshit."

[chookie]

23. Thanks for that

Thanks for this thread -- it has been a refreshing oasis of calm on a topic that has unleashed a disturbing amount of irrational reactions and incivility.

[ms liberty]

24. K&R...

I commend you for your dispassionate assessment.

Good luck with your impending flamewar! Don't take it too personally, since it's not really about your objectivity, but their lack (some justifiably) of same.

[Hekate]

25. "Burned in effigy"? No, just my thanks and a K&R

Thanks for a breath of fresh air, TW.

Hekate

[PetraPooh]

29. Well said, so DITTO! K&R

[spooky3]

27. I think this thread makes an excellent reply to some of your assertions.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x204768

[porphyrian]

30. Thank you for being cogent and sane. - n/t

[SlipperySlope]

32. BURN HER!

Actually, I'm fine with what you say.

[0007]

33. Very well said.