Olbermann: O'Donnell on No Universal Coverage - 'That's When We See Explosion on Internet'

[Hissyspit]

Run time: 04:05 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwqsUdmW9hQ   Posted on YouTube: September 09, 2009 By YouTube Member: Views on YouTube: 0   Posted on DU: September 09, 2009 By DU Member: Hissyspit Views on DU: 8442

 
MSNBC Countdown w/ KEITH OLBERMANN - 8 September 2009: Interview with Lawrence O'Donnell on Public Option.

OLBERMANN: We also keep hearing that the White House has been frustrated that the public option has gotten far too much attention in its opinion in this entire debate. How did they misread this? It seems that the public option is the hinge on which forcing insurance prices down exists or does not exist?

O'DONNELL: Well, what they misread, Keith, is how much uproar this would cause on the left. They were using the old playbook, the 1994 playbook. And what you have to remember about 1994 is: There were no blogs in 1994. And for the 15 year olds out there, I hate to tell you, but MSNBC did not exist in 1994. And so when we were legislating this in 1994, we did not worry about risking the wrath of the left if we were trying to move the bill toward the middle, because we knew the left would have to be with us in a vote when we actually get to the Senate floor or the House floor. That is the normal formula: That the Democrats don't worry about the left.

And that is the formula that they're using this time. Nancy Pelosi firmly believes that when the moment comes she can gather her caucus together and tell them that she fought harder for the public option than Barack Obama did, than Harry Reid did, than any senator did, no one fought harder for it than Nancy Pelosi, and she is now telling her troops they're gonna have to go forward without it. That moment is going to come.

OLBERMANN: But there's still a calculation in the other direction here that doesn't add up either. Assuming no Republican votes in the House, the speaker can only afford to lose 38 Democrats. Twenty-three Blue Dogs said they will not vote for the bill as it now stands. But there's 60 to 100 Democratic members - progressives - who might bolt without a public option. Doesn't both sets of math fail her?

O'DONNELL: They do, but she believes is, and what she believes, and what they always believe in the Democratic Party, is that when it comes down to the actual legislating moment, they will get those hundred liberals in the house to go along with this more centrist position. They'll give up on the Blue Dogs and they'll simply talk to that 60-100 voters on the left in the House to be on board with this and be on board with this President and it will work, because it always works.

- snip -

If Nancy Pelosi gets it to the point that where the only way to get this through is without the public option, and she gathers her caucus together and she tells them that in one of those 'hold-hands prayer meetings,' in effect. And Charlie Rangel, who's been very strong on this, and Chairman of the Ways and Means Committee stands up and says we've got to do it this way, because that's what chairmen always do - chairmen want to get a bill in the end and they will basically hold hands and say 'let's do it this way.'

OLBERMANN: And what happens then on the left, and perhaps in the middle, and to some degree on the right, when a bill passes that doesn't have a public option and thus basically forces more people to buy over-the-counter insurance from insurance companies that are not seriously regulated because there is no public option? What do we have then? Protests in the streets?

O'DONNELL: And. And, does not provide universal coverage. What's been lost in all this discussion all year is that none of the bills that have come out of any of these committees actually provide universal coverage. And so, in the end, what would the left have been fighting for all year if it ends up being a bill that simply supports and expands the business of private insurance companies, does not provide universal coverage, falls short by 10, 15, possibly 20 million people? That's when we see the explosion that we would get on the Internet as something we've never seen before in our politics. Because, as I say, at these legislative junctures in the past, the Internet did not exist.

OLBERMANN: Alright, well, we'll see what the Internet can do to change the equation, but I think we're still going to have to meet at the barricades one way or the other.

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. We will have to meet at the barricades one way or the other

are they trying to get a revolt?

If that is the plan, damn succesful

[Divine Discontent]

28. There will be massive outrage if we get a ridiculous 'overhaul' - the people came out & voted

the biggest thing facing most Americans is health care costs & concerns for their well-being so they can provide for themselves or if they have a family - their spouse & kids! These 1 million loons going to the health care forums and making jackasses out of themselves claiming socialism are a minority - the sane people have made their voices heard at the ballot box - and Mr. President and the Congress better do something we want or we will KNOW they work for their corporate overlords and we WILL have a troubled democratic party, and possibly a strong 3rd party.

[Enthusiast]

40. They want a fight.

Then they can "find" a new "Chicago Seven" to characterize as radicals. Then, you know, no one decent would associate with radicals. If you associate with radicals it is a negative in the elections - think William Ayers. This country is utterly fucked.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. The problem is that there is a limit you can push ANY population

Kennedy knew it... and these idiots are gonna learn it

[SandWalker1984]

52. Let's go for more than barracades, let's go for their Congressional Jobs!

Protesting in the streets is not effective when the corporate owned media refuses to give fair and adequate coverage.

I have another idea.

If Obama and the Democrats cheat us out of a public option equivalent to Medicare, without triggers, that gives every American the option of joining an affordable public plan....

If they give us instead the corporate designed Baccus plan that calls for MANDATES to buy PRIVATE insurance, without any controls or restrictions on what they can charge us....

then I say we should start an organization similar to MoveOn.org, one perhaps called ThrowThemOut.org that's goal is to THROW EVERY MEMBER OF THE HOUSE AND SENATE OUT OF OFFICE THAT REFUSES TO SUPPORT A TRUE PUBLIC CHOICE OPTION FOR EVERYONE IN THE SYSTEM.

Democrat or Republican, it makes no difference. You vote against us, we vote against you.

That's the only true power we have against the big corporate donations to Congress -- our votes. We can vote in elections, corporations cannot.

If we band together, along with all the groups and organizations that support a single payer or public option health care plan, then YES WE CAN throw the bums out of office!

We need to organize now so those in Congress understand the consequences of their actions.

Anyone???

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. shh, they wll not show the demos, but boy they will notice

a NATIONAL STRIKE.

Good luck organizing one though...

There is a reason why the last one was in 1952

[defendandprotect]

84. Sporadic walk-outs can be very helpful . . .

That's been done before, quite successfully - -

See: Women's movement

[davidwparker]

114. Just start doing it yourself. everybody tell one and then just start doing it.

Have you ever heard of Rev. Billy of the Church of Stop Shopping?

Pssst. Pass it along.

[Demeter]

59. Sign Me Up--We Have to Throw Them Out Anyway

They are too stupid to live, let alone legislate. They don't represent the People, so out with them!

[bread_and_roses]

78. I'm with you. I'm sick of spending all our energy begging and pleading

with them to DO THE THINGS WE ELECTED THEM TO DO. When we should be spending that energy to organize and fight the unfettered rule of our corporate overlords. What a sweet system they've set up for themselves - turn out "the left" (meaning anyone who's in the majority on health care, the environment, even labor law reform!) to elect them, and then totally ignore what we elected them for so they can smarm the Corps for more campaign $$. I am so sick of it.

[BonnieJW]

63. I believe we could even get MoveOn to assist in this.

Maybe a sub-organization of MoveOn. They already have the software in place. They could have a list of all senators and congresspersons and how they voted on this issue. Anyone who did not support a public option will get unwanted attention from ThrowThemOut. They find liberal candidates to run against the traitors and we would fund their campaigns and MoveOn would place the ads.

[knixphan]

65. Absolutely.

[davidwparker]

113. "ThrowThemOut.org" - +1

Time clean house ... and the senate if there is no public option

If you are an incumbent in the next elections, you are gone. We don't need 3rd parties. Just get rid of the freaks who are in the existing parties.

[theFrankFactor]

2. Meet At the Barricades! YES!

[stlsaxman]

3. So... we're fucked.

[Hissyspit]

5. Well, yeah.

That's been evident for some time now.

[defendandprotect]

91. ...and notice still there is no Plan B for progressives/liberals . . . !!!!

[MissPuddy]

122. Obama threw Progressives under the bus..

Could he be any more vague about the Public Option? What constitutes "basic health care"...a physical?

[lbrtbell]

4. Keith's right on this one

The internet's one thing, but we do need to meet at the barricades! :mad: :grr:

[slipslidingaway]

6. "Don’t say “universal” health care." Herndon Alliance, Celinda Lake...

Campaign Desk — June 22, 2009 02:59 PM
What Journalists Can Learn from Celinda Lake
Wisdom from the Democrats’ wordsmith

By Trudy Lieberman

http://www.cjr.org/campaign_desk/what_journalists_can_learn_fro_1.php

"...In early June, a memo circulated from the Herndon Alliance and Lake Research Partners telling advocacy groups and other interested parties precisely what words they should use to counter Republican messages as health reform’s verbal war begins. The Herndon Alliance, which calls itself a non-partisan coalition, has partnered with some 200 organizations, including former single-payer advocates, think tanks, foundations, advocacy groups, businesses, and health care providers. The Alliance claims to “provide value-added services to partner organizations”—i.e., helping them develop communications strategies. Lake has worked closely with the Alliance in crafting messages its partners can use. She has counseled the Alliance’s partners against using the term “universal coverage.” Maybe that’s why it’s not talked about much anymore. Similarly, she tells activists never to say “Medicare for all.” Instead, they should say “choice of public and private plans.”....."


Posted on the Third Way site...

MESSAGE ADVICE—MAKING THE CASE FOR REFORM | JULY 2009

http://www.thirdway.org/data/product/file/234/Messaging_Health_Reform.pdf

"Phrases That Don’t Work

• Politically polarizing language such as talking about the Republicans’ failure to
address the health care crisis or using phrases like “unregulated greed” to
describe insurance companies (references to “excessive profits” are better).

• Don’t say “universal” health care. Talk about “quality, affordable health care for
all.” (But remember—quality, affordable health care for all is largely a message
about access.)

• Don’t compare the U.S. to other countries, or assert that America does not
provide quality health care. (i.e. Do not cite statistics that say the U.S. is 37th in
the world in health outcomes)...."

[funnymanpants]

9. Celinda Lake is a propagandist

See here:

http://www.unitedforhealthcare.org/HR676news_3.html

To understand why Lake would depict Americans as Scrooges who like their health insurance company and are afraid of Medicare, it helps to understand why the Herndon Alliance was formed. The Alliance was founded by individuals who have either opposed or refused to support Medicare-for-all legislation and instead supported legislation like President Bill Clinton’s 1993 Health Security Act

But this diagnosis conflicts with a large body of research which shows that 65 to 85 percent of Americans support universal health insurance, and 60 to 70 percent support a Medicare-for-all program.

...

In short, Lake delivered to the Herndon Alliance the results the founders of the Alliance were looking for.

[slipslidingaway]

17. Yes, more here...

http://www.pnhp.org/news/2008/december/americans_support_si.php

"Posted on December 11, 2008
Americans Support Single payer. Why Doesn't Celinda Lake?

Editor’s note:

Data derived from polls have long found strong support for “Medicare for All” or single payer national health insurance. For example, a recent AP/Yahoo poll found that 65 percent of Americans agree that the U.S. should “adopt a universal health insurance program in which everyone is covered under a program like Medicare that is run by the government and financed by taxpayer”. But so do other kinds of data, including data from citizen juries, focus groups, and even a national series of government-sponsored town hall meetings that were carefully designed to solicit support for anything but single payer.

In 2006, a Congressional Task Force created by the 2003 Medicare Modernization Act hosted 29 town hall meetings across the U.S. to ask Americans what type of health care reform they favored. The results of the “Citizen’s Health Care Working Group” were overwhelmingly in favor of single payer health insurance despite considerable bias against single payer health insurance in the way the meetings were structured. In fact, 25 of 29 of the meetings (86 percent) reported that a national health program was their most favored option (see press release and chart, “Congressional Task Force Disregards Public’s Call for National Health Insurance and chart,”).

http://www.pnhp.org/news/2006/october/citizens_health_ca.php
http://pnhp.org/PDF_files/Last_Page_from_appendix_b.pdf

Similar strong support for Medicare for All was found the last time health reform was on the top of the nation’s agenda, during the Clinton administration. In 1993, a citizen jury sat for 8 hours a day for five days in Washington, DC before making their choice among the then-leading options for health reform: managed competition (supported by Clinton), medical savings accounts, and single payer. Single payer received 17 out of 24 votes (70 percent). There were 5 votes for Clinton’s plan, and none for medical savings accounts. Focus groups conducted that year by Democratic pollster Celinda Lake reported the same strong support for single payer. “After conducting extensive focus groups on health care, pollster Celinda Lake discovered that the more people are told about the Canadian system, “the higher the support goes.” In contrast, according to Lake, working Americans found the managed competition idea “laughable.” (“It’s Time for a Real Debate on National Health Insurance”)

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Norman_Solomon/Violence_TV_TTMLG.html

So, how come Democratic pollster Celinda Lake now claims Americans won’t support single payer, and instead favor a plan that is a variant of managed competition? Because her latest research was brazenly biased. Kip Sullivan explains how and why."

[Hissyspit]

11. Not to mention, "quality, affordable health care for all" won't

fit in the subject line.

[slipslidingaway]

18. And "quality, affordable health care for all" has yet to be defined ...

I'm glad to hear that he brought up the words "universal coverage"

Thanks for posting.

[dflprincess]

98. We don't need universal "coverage" we need univerasal access.

Even if the current bills gave everyone coverage, the copays and deductibles may still prevent access.

[truedelphi]

21. Mission statement of the above -

Make sure that everything in this bill helps the big insurers and hurts the middle incomed.

Refrain from language that would bring about the only reform worth having:

Universal Single Payer, Medicare for All!

[slipslidingaway]

47. Exactly....

"By early 2009, it was clear the Hacker-HCAN-Herndon Alliance propaganda for the “public option” and against single-payer had worked with the Democratic leadership, and that the Democratic leadership would fall once again for a market-based alternative and remove single-payer from the table. The removal of single-payer legislation took place without the firing of a single shot in public by the insurance industry and the right wing."

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/slipslidingaway/63

[truedelphi]

74. Haven't seen you in a while, there, Slipsliding

Hope all is well on your personal planet

[slipslidingaway]

79. Been around, maybe not posting as much as before...

you've not been posting as much either.

All is well here and hopefully the same for you, just feel we are being royally screwed in this health care debate. Hard to fight the tide at DU.

:hi:

[truedelphi]

87. Funny how the ones who understood the

Stolen Election issue are the first to understand the "One Party rules them all, One Money Party to bind them" theme that is guiding our nation.

And just as some of my trusted Republican friends could never accept that Bush's war in Iraq was not being won, now the same type of party loyalists (But with a D after their name rather than an R) cannot see the real writing on the wall. I have really come to understand why Thomas Jefferson hated political parties and hoped that they would not carry any sway as the nation's life unfolded.

But the outdoors beckons on days like today. I have to gather some fibromyalgea-bursting black walnuts to give to sick friends, so will be out with the squirrels and crows when Pres O gives his speech.

Here's to your time away from DU :toast:

[slipslidingaway]

95. So true, if anything we need to watch our Party more when they...

are in power, we need to be the check on them and not assume they will work for us.

Enjoy the outdoors

:)

[RaleighNCDUer]

75. Is this 'third way' a revamping of the DLC, now that the DLC is so

blatantly toxic to progressives?

[slipslidingaway]

82. Appears that way....Third Way

http://www.thirdway.org/press/release/68

02/28/09

Third Way Statement on the President’s Appointment of Governor Sebelius at HHS

"Statement of Third Way President Jonathan Cowan on the appointment of Governor Kathleen Sebelius as Secretary of HHS: “We are proud and delighted that Governor Sebelius, the Chair of Third Way’s Governors’ Initiative, has been nominated by the President to serve as Secretary of Health and Human Services..."


From 2006...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2835324&mesg_id=2835324

"From SourceWatch, a factual blueprint for "who" and "what" The Third Way is:..."


From 2008 - FISA bill with immunity...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2826324&mesg_id=2826324

"A think tank with close ties to the telecommunication industry has been working with a key Democrat in the Senate on a domestic surveillance bill that would provide telecommunications companies with retroactive immunity for possibly violating federal law by spying on American citizens at the behest of the Bush administration.

Third Way, a non-profit "progressive" think tank that is funded and controlled by hedge fund managers, corporate lawyers and business executives has advised Sen. Jay Rockefeller on a domestic surveillance bill that includes immunity for telecommunications companies with which Third Way board members have close ties.

Rockefeller is the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee and has been the leading Democratic proponent of granting immunity to telecommunication companies that allegedly gave spy agencies access to their communication networks and databases without a warrant.

"I think we will prevail," Rockefeller told the Politico on January 23, referring to the disagreement over retroactive immunity for telecoms, "it's a pretty bad idea to appear cocky ... I'm not pessimistic."

Democrats connected to Third Way were integral in defeating a bill, supported by a majority of Senate Democrats, which might have prevented the telecoms from getting immunity..."


From 2009 on health care...

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/6/8/740037/-Third-Way-on-Public-Option:-Make-One-that-Cant-Work

"Third Way" on Public Option: Make One that Can't Work
by mcjoan

"Third Way" on Public Option: Make One that Can't Work

Mon Jun 08, 2009 at 09:40:05 AM PDT

The "progressives" at Third Way, that moderate public policy think thank tank that apparently exists to make the DLC look like regular liberal firebrands, turned their hyper-incrementalist bullshit domestic policy sites on something that matters: the public option in the health care reform package.

This leaked draft of their upcoming policy paper shows that they're not even going for a hyper-incrementalist watering down of the public option--they're trying to kill it. Here's their premise:

...."

Say "NO!" To The DLC On Jettisoning The Public Option!

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/8/25/772085/-Say-NO!-To-The-DLC-On-Jettisoning-The-Public-Option!

by slinkerwink

Tue Aug 25, 2009 at 08:35:01 AM PDT

"The Third Way, a think tank that calls itself "progressive" but really isn't a progressive think tank, came out with this nauseating op-ed in the Roll Call, a congressional newspaper, telling us progressives to accept a shit sandwich without the public option.

As we move into the final make-or-break months of the health care debate, every progressive should, in the James Carville tradition, put a simple warning on the wall: Do not snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. While many are fighting passionately for one particular policy proposal, such as a public plan, it would be tragic to allow the inclusion or exclusion of any single element to derail reform..."

[defendandprotect]

85. Another effort to use propaganda to confuse the public . . .

exactly as the GOP has done!!!

As they say, you can only really be betrayed by your friends!!!

[slipslidingaway]

92. Exactly, people believe they must be working for OUR interests ...

instead of the interest of the corporations.

If time allows give this a quick read before the speech tonight...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6499259&mesg_id=6499259

Single-payer was marginalized and taken off the table during the Clinton health reform debate. We are repeating the same mistakes in 2009 by ignoring the polls which say that the majority prefer a government run, national health insurance, system similar to Medicare.


It's Time for a Real Debate on National Health Insurance

May 12,1993

.....

[defendandprotect]

104. Single Payer -- yes!!

Thank you -- browsed it quickly --

The best discussions we've had in America on health care -- most truthful

and enlightening -- were done by Phil Donahue on a PBS special -- and

by Michael Moore in SICKO. Amazing!!!

We have a lot to thank MM for -- and of course Donahue was removed besides

being their #1 show!!


We have to stop letting them pretend that they're reinventing the wheel here --

nor take years to put this in place!!! That's crap.

MEDICARE FOR ALL --

[slipslidingaway]

108. And when the Democrats continue to remove SP from the table...

what are we to believe?

That they are working for the little people :(

[defendandprotect]

117. Please tell me that most of us know that's not true . .. !!!

I think even people who are trying to stay involved with the party know we have

no real leverage over these candidates/parties no matter how much money we give

them because there's no way for us to apply leverage.

OTOH, the lobbyists, of course, have that leverage --

'PRE-BRIBERY' AND 'PRE-OWNERSHIP' . . .

Though I would agree that they use a lot of excuses to avoid admitting who they're

really working for and to confuse voters!!

We need a Plan B for liberals and progressives and they have to move together and

stay together whether in the party or elsewhere -- !!!

Btw, what happened to AFL-CIO on this . . . ?

They should have been calling unions and Democrats out to demonstrate for single

payer-MEDICARE????



:evilgrin:

[slipslidingaway]

123. Our biggest leverage is our vote and I agree we need a Plan B...

so many moved from universal, SP, not for profit to the "public option" because they were told by politicians that it was the only way.

:(

[defendandprotect]

124. Ohhhh.... please . . .

tell me you don't really think that !!!

How many of our elections have been stolen?

You think it's simply back to 2000????

LEVERAGE . . . means something working at the moment . . . not something two years from now!!!

Try this --

http://www.constitution.org/vote/votescam__.htm

In the late 1960's two journalists in Florida became aware of elections being stolen by
computer and began investigating. The large computer used by MSM came in during mid-1960 --
the individual voting computers during the late-1960's. MSM was able to move then from
simply report vote tallies to PREDICTING and CALLING RACES for candidates and states.
That's what you saw Jon Ellis/Fox do in 2000 -- in undoing the Gore win.

THAT all didn't begin in 2000 --

Probably, more likely began around the time we were passing The Voting Rights Act in late 1960's!

[SlingBlade]

7. Yep, Meet yal at the barricades

That's probably where this will ultimately be settled since the Democratic Party has obviously
forgotten who and what it is.

[orleans]

8. the barricades line--will keith help rally the troops?

this segment blew me away

i feel like if these libs/progressives/whatever they think of themselves, can't round up those other dems--if obama can't get it done--i so feel like: FUCK IT! FUCK THEM, FUCK IT, FUCK IT ALL!

it's like a game these fuckers are playing--good cop/bad cop.

well, this is not a fucking game. people are dying while they play their games.

if pelosi can't get this bill to do right by people then she better fucking work harder at it. same with obama--if he can't get these fucking senators in line (attn: harry reid and his lack of ballitude) then obama better fucking try harder.

this could be the make or break with a democratic presidency --and they all better stop pissing around with this!

so discouraged, so disgusted--i'm in a nasty frame of mind because of this. and, one thing du has taught me--i am never alone with the way i feel.

(thanks for the transcript--i came looking for this video--i just wanted to go over it again; i didn't play it...i just read it)

[Hissyspit]

10. I'm feeling the same way.

May have to move to Canada.

[orleans]

16. yeah, me too--i feel like i would be this guy only going in the other

direction--
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6482461

[rambler_american]

31. We bought property in Canada

but sold it when Obama got elected. Figured we didn't need it anymore. Guess I was mistaken.

[Enthusiast]

41. In other words......

we might have to move to a representative democracy.

[bertman]

13. Orleans, I agree 100% and that's what my emails to my rep, senator and President are

all saying. In addition to the part about never donating another PENNY or MINUTE of my time to the Democratic party.

[orleans]

15. yep. and just think about it this way--how fucked up is it that we have

to resort to threatening that (not to donate money or time anymore).

it's terrible. it's as if they're all playing this fucking game with OUR lives--and some of us just don't want to "play" anymore.

it's terrible.

like i said, this health care crap isn't a game. people are dying whether they have insurance or not--it's killing this country. shame on ALL of them if a good bill doesn't get passed. no one wants to watch congress play their little good cop/bad cop any fucking more!

(sorry--i know i'm repeating myself---it's just so disheartening...)

[zeemike]

19. Yes but it is a game with a big prize.

If you are a CEO of a HMO and you know you will get a 50 mil bonus if you can increase profits by 10% what is a few lives to you...There are people that will kill for a whole lot less.

[Enthusiast]

42. These powerful interests

stand to lose too much if we disrupt the status quo. Imagine, private insurance, for one, gets to push every high risk individual off onto medicare, medicaid or no coverage at all. Imagine the windfall. Then private insurance advocates can point to medicare and say "See, medicare is running out of money. It's not as efficient as private insurance." It's as if we only exist to provide FOR the for profit health care industry, hospitals included. Soylent 451 brave new 1984 is here baby.

[mmonk]

12. To the barricades!

[Doremus]

14. Ready to meet you at the barricades!

Let's hope it doesn't go that way but I'm ready if it does.

[colsohlibgal]

20. I'm There, Time To Storm The Castle!

I hope the Progressive gang in the House stays strong. If they don't and it all goes as O'Donnell thinks it will then we're going to get a totally lame bill and it will be up to we the people to storm Washington like nothing they have seen lately.

My guess is Obama will be strident but will hedge all over the place tomorrow evening. The whole drama is getting pretty disgusting, that all these people who took our money and benefited from us calling and canvassing would prefer disappointing us to disappointing the democrats in name only Blue Dogs. That they would prefer passing a let's throw more money at the leeches bill to a bill that includes a public plan.

So, in the end, it's almost surely going to be time to take it back to the streets.

[Jack Sprat]

24. That's only half of it.

Not only would it be a lame bill that doesn't provide a public option or universal care, it would force some percentage into private plans they can't afford. At the end of the day, we could have a bill that taxes the public into bribing the private insurance industry to become even wealthier than they are already; for the purpose of reforming themselves so that they treat people with common decency which they should have done from the onset without bribery from the public tax pool. Then later, we will get the entire blame when it rewards the crooks and punishes most everyone else from middle class on down to the indigent because it was our bill, our Executive, and our Congressional majority.

I think Lawrence O'Donnell knows his stuff. He knows more about the workings on the Hill than most of us. Somebodies are running us off the edge of a mountain in a dunebuggy with no safety belts. If this goes down like it looks it might, it is going to be bad medicine.

[aikanae]

26. Insurers Wet Dream Come True

Without the public option, any "reform" becomes an insurers wet dream come true in the form of a guaranteed market. That's not "free trade" in any stretch of the imagination - not when they've been loosing huge numbers of beneficiaries who can't afford or don't find value in having their product. Suddenly they don't have to improve to have a whole nation of new beneficiaries. All those hold outs are theirs.

This is a windfall for insurance companies. They've been lobbing for this - mandated buying - for a long time. This is anti-capitalism.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

46. O'Donnell has been saying there will never be a public option

for weeks, and you are right he knows his stuff. Unfortunately I believe him here. You can tell by the way Gibbs has been talking about it, you can tell by the way all of Obama's people are talking about the public option with stuff like calling it "an important tool" and "one of many components". It isnt going to happen and we may end up getting something that emboldens the insurance companies, I agree. How depressing.

[defendandprotect]

93. Right ... Gibbs had a sheepish, guilty look yesterday . . . !!!

[Iwillnevergiveup]

22. I rarely drink

but before the speech tomorrow night, I'm gonna have to reconsider. I don't have a good feeling about this at all. All the paymasters - insurance & pharma companies and their specious lobbyists, the media, the talking heads - must be thrilled and consider it worth every penny they've spent.

:puke:

[pink-o]

49. Well, I drink like a fish...

..and I'm either gonna need a bottle in front of me or a frontal lobotomy if Obama doesn't endorse a public option.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

51. I would bet on the lobotomy

but the real question is "are you covered"?

[Mithreal]

23. Despair is not an option. nt

[aikanae]

25. UNFORGIVABLE

Obama was elected for this. Democrats were elected for this. A name like "Medicare for all" or Medicare choice would have been self-explanatory - unlike "public option" that sounds like welfare. Instead they have proved Dem's are as bad as the GOP for being owned by corporations.

It's going to be tough to vote in single party elections. Democrats not only lost their majority, but they are a dead political party = no hope.

This is ugly. Worse than Bush.

[jjewell]

27. I have heard repeatedly....

that the public option won't pass the Senate, that the public option is dead, that the public option lacks support from Blue Dogs and "centrists", but I have yet to hear a single cogent argument from those against a public option as to WHY they are against it.

Single Payer was stillborn and never got debated at all. It was abandoned by Progressives (for the most part) in favor of the compromise of the "public option". That should mark the end of compromises, period. No public option, no heath care bill passage.

No way will I be forced to pay a private insurance company who plans to put 30% of the premiums I pay into their pockets. I won't do it.

[shimmergal]

66. It'll be a new involuntary servitude.

No public option + mandate = slavery!!!

Can't we somehow get this message out there?

[LaPera]

29. Lawrence O'Donell one of the best I've ever seen or heard on health care and public option....

How the Dems will are going to fuck up our last chance (with a song and a dance)...to the well financed insurance corporations...

I adore O'Donnell...he sees it unfolding the same way as it always has for the past 60 fucking years.....

What a fucking drag.....

[MannyGoldstein]

30. The "Who The Fuck Else Are You Gonna Vote For, Asshole!?" Strategy

That golden invention of the Clintons, now brandished by Obama.

Until we actually dump some DINOs from office, our mewlings will mean nothing.

[Ruby the Liberal]

32. How about the "who else are you going to get donations and volunteer time

from" strategy. ;)

[MannyGoldstein]

33. They're Counting On Your Working *Against* The Republican

Not *for* the Democrat. That's how it's worked for about 20 years now.

[ChiciB1]

61. But When Dems Don't Deliver In The End, When We Gave Our Time, Our Energy

and our votes to them so THEY can WORK for us, then what does it matter if we are still stuck with the same old shit??

People in other countries mount huge protests even when they don't even have a Democracy, yet we here in America, where it's said Democracy was founded, seem NOT to really have a Democracy!

We are a complacent people, and I've said it before, there's that Nero/Rome thingey that seems to be sitting out there waiting to explode!

[defendandprotect]

94. Most of us have enough still . . without realizing that what effects one effects us all!!!

And this has to go beyond the vote --

Corporations/Capitalists are in this fight for their lives -- for total control or none.

And same for us --

[eyepaddle]

34. That's it in a nutshell.

I think the time for this trick of theirs is fast drawing to a close. However I fear the country may well be a heap of smoking rubble before the assholes in the "Who the Fuck Else are You Gonna Vote For, Asshole!?" wing of the Democratic PArty figure this out.

[debbierlus]

39. So, lets do it. Push back hard - we have NOTHING to lose

[defendandprotect]

96. There has to be a Plan B . . .

where is it?

While we have to keep hoping that we can rid the party of the poisonous

DLC and DINOs - on the other hand, if progressives/liberals simply drop

out one by one, it is meaningless!

Progressives/Liberals have to stick together -- in one block -- moving

en masse no matter what it is we decide to do.

Stay or go --

IMO, Obama will rip himself apart if he does this -- it will be tragedy

for Obama and the Dems -- and it will do great harm to America which

is bleeding from a need for universal health care -- MEDICARE FOR ALL!!!

[MannyGoldstein]

99. Nah... Obama Will Win The Nomination, He's Got All The Leverage

And we'll vote for Obama over Mittens. And, if Nader (or another notable third party) runs, everyone will scream that he's just being an asshole.

[defendandprotect]

106. Sure . . .if you say so --

:eyes:

[ScottLand]

35. And if this fails,

I believe the insurance companies will be more brutal than ever.

[DeeDeeNY]

36. Very disheartening

As was Keith's clip last night of Harry Reid saying "we want a bipartisan bill".
He has got to be kidding.
:banghead:

[Deep13]

37. I'm ready.

[debbierlus]

38. I am working on an internet campaign to fight back - I will unveil in the next couple of days

With a video....

And, a group page....

The name of the group is This Ends Now....

[ChiciB1]

60. That's A Good Start... Now Let's Get Behind Some Real Push Back!!

And thanks to you "debbierlus" for even thinking of doing something to show our OUTRAGE!!!

[quiet.american]

43. Hissyspit -- thanks for also posting the transcript -- love it when there's a transcript.

Sometimes I'm on a computer where I can't call up the video, so it's great when there's accompanying text.

[defendandprotect]

97. Me, too ... so much faster to read something -- thank you Hissyspit --!!

[bongbong]

44. Single Party

A lot of people are going to be leaving this country. As the intelligent people leave, it will be left with the mindless mobs, the business criminals, and lots and lots of debt. No future here.

Democracy had such a promise, however the light is all but extinguished. It is a single-party system now - the corporations control everything. I think Ted passing away was, literally, a metaphor for Democracy in America.

[spiritual_gunfighter]

45. I am ready to explode

no public option means run canididates against every one of them including Obama as far as i'm concerned.

[L0oniX]

48. Single payer / universal health care or it's game over for the Dems.

I myself will vote anti incumbent or go independent.

[SergeStorms]

54. Only on the internet?

If they're going to stick to the 1994 strategy they should remember what happened to Congress during that same time period. If I'm not mistaken, that was when the Republicans made their "contract with America" and took over both the House and Senate in a sweeping rebuke of Democratic principals. Does Ms. Pelosi want THAT to happen again? Because if they lose the left, that's exactly what will happen. Again.

I thought for a moment there that Democrats had actually grown a spine and would fight for what's best for it's citizens, NOT what's best for corporate America. Silly me. :grr:

[Faryn Balyncd]

55. K&R - Will OUR Democratic Party beget the mother of all Corporate Welfare, Bait & Switch scams?....

(pass a bill the lobbyists could only dream about under Republican rule?)


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6498666&mesg_id=6498666

[katty]

69. they probably will

[defendandprotect]

100. You have a nation dedicated to capitalism . . . "King-of-the-Hill" system . . .

With DLC and right wing in charge -- Pelosi . . ."holding hands prayer meeting" !!!

Who do you think is going to win here????

Pelosi should have been gone long ago -- also Reid -- and all of DLC --

Unregulated capitalism is merely organized crime!!!

[stillwaiting]

107. Naomi Klein would probably say yes...

All over the world massive fascist programs get passed when the supposed liberal/progressive/party for the people take over.

There is NO WAY that this legislation being submitted by Baucus would get through our Congress if Republicans pushed it through. We WOULD meet at the barricades. It is THAT bad and outrageous, imo.

There is a very good chance that this type of fascist policy will be able to get implemented under Obama and a Democratic Congress because too many people who would oppose such a fascist policy under a Repub. Admin. will not want to fight against their "team".

Obama will really, really, really want a public option, even if it's not possible now. At least that's what he's probably going to be selling (please be wrong, please be wrong, I WANT to be wrong). If that happens, I am not buying it. Obama and my Democratic Senators (Webb and Warner) will lose my money and my votes.

I can not believe I've become a single issue voter, but the sell out and betrayal would be too much, and the stakes are literally life and death for so many.

[davidwparker]

118. Make that two Virginia voters. No public option is too much of a sell out.

And, the funny thing is ... Hillary, who I did not support, would have cracked some heads by now and gotten it done.

I guess I just dared to hope for the all the change. Getting things passed through the Democratically controlled Congress has proven to be too much.

But, on the bright side, Obama's speech tonight will be very motivating. They always are.

[autorank]

56. RECOMMENDED

I hope somebody at DNC is reading this because if they're not, there will be a new Democratic Party
without the lackeys. This is great analysis and O'Donnell delivers 95% of the time. He's absolutely
right on universal coverage and, of equal importance, the outcome of this bill.

Insurance regulation at the federal level is done through ERISA. The final bill will have to address
this. There is some hope there. But those of us who buy over the counter are stuck with state
regulation. Places like Utah and Wisconsin are very lightly regulated. You can buy insurance very
cheaply but you have a huge f'ing deductible, $16,000 in Utah for example. Give me a break!

It is in the details on the issue of regulation and enforcement.

[ChiciB1]

57. Love To See A PUSH-BACK Mounted By "We The People," But I'm

thinking that even IF there's no Public Option, when ANY Bill is passed, Democrats will be out there using words, or fuzzing up the debate BY USING CERTAIN words, that tells people that THEY REALLY GOT a "good deal!"

They'll be doing a "media blitz" telling all that what was actually passed IS REALLY what the people wanted and needed! They'll use certain buzz words and phrases to do CYA and then go along their merry little way!

Then when the roar dies down, when the "barricades" never get manned, when the people don't really REVOLT, it will just be THE SAME OLE S--T AGAIN!!

We The People Lose!! OUR apathy will let them get away with it over and over as we have for all too many years! Just sit at the PC, blog and complain!

There really has to be a REVOLT by the "lefties" if that's what they want to call us, but WILL IT EVER HAPPEN AGAIN?? As a Boomer, I have always been proud to have at least PROTESTED in a VERY LOUD and relatively effective way, WAY BACK WHEN!

This country has changed over the years and that's not unexpected, but what we can no longer afford or put up with is just sitting back and taking it without REALLY GETTING RILED UP!! It may not change the outcome of the issue, but it just MIGHT make the Blue Dogs and yes... Pelosi, et al take a look at how much we feel they have failed us, when "we the people" worked to give them everything to work with and they still have NO SPINE!!

I'm fully ready to bolt and leave the party because I really don't know what else to do!! I'm SICK of writing, calling and signing petitions... it ain't working and they don't give a S--T, so why try anymore?? Repukes have "birthers" and "deathers" and above all... a "follow their leader UNITY!" We can call them every name in the book, but if in the end THEY still get their way... THEY WIN, WE LOSE!!

[Quasimodem]

58. It takes an effort, but the barricades work

I don’t know if it will happen, but I agree that the barricades are the last, best hope for even so little as a public option. At that, the mob will have to stand ready to mobilize a few more times, to insure that the public option isn’t passed, toothless and emasculated.


In spite of all the American sniping at the expense of the French, the French have the best health care on the planet.

And I can't help wondering whether that fact can in any way be attributed to the French citizen’s ability to generate truly impressive anti-government demonstrations.

Unlike America, the French government treads carefully to avoid raising its constituents’ wrath, as opposed to the American system, where the citizen must fear their government’s decisions.

[knixphan]

67. spot on.

[omega minimo]

62. If there's blood in the streets and cracked heads, corporate health care profits again! A Win Win!

:sarcasm:

[defendandprotect]

101. Anything that is done has to be "non-violent" and ruled by intelligence . . .

[LatteLibertine]

64. I'll defintely be disappointed

I believe universal health care for all is the right thing to do. I will settle for the public option. If there is no public option in the final bill there should also be no mandate to buy insurance.

This fight is critical for Liberals and Progressives. If President Obama fails miserably here it will be hard for him to get anything meaningful done for the rest of his term.

[shimmergal]

70. Exactly!

No public option + mandates = slavery!

If that's the way it falls out, primary EVERY elected critter who caved. Don't let the Repubs win, however. If our primary candidates lose, then we need to go third party. Not with the Greens; Ralph Nader has ruined that brand forever.

Take a look at the strategy of the Perot campaign in 1992. It took 19% of the vote, running tightly focused on an economic agenda in an atmosphere that was not nearly as bad as what we have now. Granted, Perot already had a sort-of structure in place, in his "United We Stand" groups, but if we start now, it's not impossible to put together a similar outfit. We'll need to concentrate on a few big points that would draw in independents and non-crazy Republicans as well as us outraged lefties.

At minimum, it would throw a huge wild card into the ring for 2012. (Though we need to start building for the 2010 elections, too.) At maximum, we might get that real alignment of American politics that's been needed for so long.

[knixphan]

68. America: Love it or FIX it.

I'll be in the street with no delay.

[Riverman]

71. No Public Option, No Obama Support Again! We stood by you to

get elected. You abandon us now, forget support for any other effort and now ground troops, money from in 2012! Good luck pulling the 2008 coalition together again if youo abandon half of your supporters. That's all!

[diane in sf]

72. I just responded to a DNC mailer that I was only donating through Act Blue and directly to progressi

ves, that my money was not going to DLCers and corporatists, and that they should support single payer or at a minimum a strong public option if they wanted me to donate or volunteer as I have in the past.

[defendandprotect]

102. Please tell me no one is giving money to Democrats without strong strings attached?????

In fact, I wouldn't give a dime except in return for a signed pledge!!!

[cleverusername]

73. Thanks, now ready to explode

Thank you for the transcript of the video. As a hard of hearing DUer, I really appreciate it. :yourock:

I'm ready to explode! :nuke:

[Why Syzygy]

76. Are Medicare recipients going to be included

in mandated PURCHASE? Are they seriously going to allow older Americans and disabled Americans off the hook on this? I DOUBT it. We're screwed. Our democratic republic has been heisted and it isn't even being held hostage. They don't want a ransom. They want the object. Our labor and very lives.

[burning rain]

77. That was a sobering discussion.

If we just get the sort of healthcare bill O'Donnell outlines, citizens will be screwed, corporations coddled, and Democrats will be in bad shape for 2010 and elections going forward. Obama could hang on just because people find Republicans too crazy to have all the power, but fear and loathing for Republicans will not save congressional Democrats with a Democrat in the White House (and therefore able to save the country from the worst GOP garbage with the veto), if the Democratic base is demoralized.

[2Design]

80. universal health care or public option - no other choice and why

do we believe it is important because DEAN our leader told us

[RoccoR5955]

81. Take it to the streets...

See you all at the barricades!

But remember, The Revolution will not be televised!

The Revolution Will Not Be Televised

You will not be able to stay home, brother.
You will not be able to plug in, turn on and cop out.
You will not be able to lose yourself on skag and skip,
Skip out for beer during commercials,
Because the revolution will not be televised.

The revolution will not be televised.
The revolution will not be brought to you by Xerox
In 4 parts without commercial interruptions.
The revolution will not show you pictures of Nixon
blowing a bugle and leading a charge by John
Mitchell, General Abrams and Spiro Agnew to eat
hog maws confiscated from a Harlem sanctuary.
The revolution will not be televised.

The revolution will not be brought to you by the
Schaefer Award Theatre and will not star Natalie
Woods and Steve McQueen or Bullwinkle and Julia.
The revolution will not give your mouth sex appeal.
The revolution will not get rid of the nubs.
The revolution will not make you look five pounds
thinner, because the revolution will not be televised, Brother.

There will be no pictures of you and Willie May
pushing that shopping cart down the block on the dead run,
or trying to slide that color television into a stolen ambulance.
NBC will not be able predict the winner at 8:32
or report from 29 districts.
The revolution will not be televised.

There will be no pictures of pigs shooting down
brothers in the instant replay.
There will be no pictures of pigs shooting down
brothers in the instant replay.
There will be no pictures of Whitney Young being
run out of Harlem on a rail with a brand new process.
There will be no slow motion or still life of Roy
Wilkens strolling through Watts in a Red, Black and
Green liberation jumpsuit that he had been saving
For just the proper occasion.

Green Acres, The Beverly Hillbillies, and Hooterville
Junction will no longer be so damned relevant, and
women will not care if Dick finally gets down with
Jane on Search for Tomorrow because Black people
will be in the street looking for a brighter day.
The revolution will not be televised.

There will be no highlights on the eleven o'clock
news and no pictures of hairy armed women
liberationists and Jackie Onassis blowing her nose.
The theme song will not be written by Jim Webb,
Francis Scott Key, nor sung by Glen Campbell, Tom
Jones, Johnny Cash, Englebert Humperdink, or the Rare Earth.
The revolution will not be televised.

The revolution will not be right back after a message
bbout a white tornado, white lightning, or white people.
You will not have to worry about a dove in your
bedroom, a tiger in your tank, or the giant in your toilet bowl.
The revolution will not go better with Coke.
The revolution will not fight the germs that may cause bad breath.
The revolution will put you in the driver's seat.

The revolution will not be televised, will not be televised,
will not be televised, will not be televised.
The revolution will be no re-run brothers;
The revolution will be live.

-- Gill Scott Heron

[defendandprotect]

103. Don't expect leaders either, because they ....

eliminate them as quickly as they rise up --

[defendandprotect]

83. And . . . the reason they "don't worry about the left" is because we have no where to go---!!!

As long as that thought holds for them -- and Wm. Greider has been speaking out,

for one, suggesting we have should begin to break them of that certainty and that

way of thinking -- then we will be ignored.

Another reason why they don't worry about the "left" is because they're quite sure

they won't organize into a block to move en masse.

In other words, if all progressives are going to do is stay home and not vote, they

still have no worries. And, that has happened before!

They have nothing to fear from a block of progressives who split and go their separate

ways -- and we have nothing to gain.

Meanwhile, let's hope that Obama does the right thing and proclaims health care for

all of humanity as a civil right!

And, let's hope he also stops pretending that he's reinventing the wheel . . . everyone

else has done this, nation by nation!!!

MEDICARE FOR ALL -- EVERYONE IN, NO ONE OUT!!!

***********************************************

[defendandprotect]

86. A Pelosi 'hold-hands prayer meetings . . . ??? Tell me Americans are waking up to how . . .

religion is used by the right to control the public!!???

[graywarrior]

88. How I DESPISE depending on politicians to vote for me.

If this were put on a ballot for us to vote, things would be way different. But no, we have to pray that fearful, out-of-touch politicians will vote in favor of something this country needs rahter than their own self interests.

So frustrating I could scream. I think I will....

:banghead:

[defendandprotect]

89. If Obama does no public option, it will be even more costly and harmful to America -- !!!

Why in the hell have we permitted someone like BAUCUS -- PRE-BRIBED AND PRE-OWNED --

by the health care industry to run any health care meetings?

Corporatism is under threat here and rightly so -- carrying this fight forward, folks!!

Where is what's left of our unions? Why aren't Dems being called out to demonstrate

for MEDICARE FOR ALL????

It's past time for Democrats to be showing their strength in the streets!!

[windoe]

90. A line has been drawn.

I am not going to pay for not having insurance. No more things can fit up my butt, there is no more room in there.

[fascisthunter]

105. indeed

[droidamus2]

109. History has something to say

The Democrats better wake up. The Republican party did the same thing for years with the far right conservatives. They depended on them to eventually cave and let the more moderate Republicans do what they wanted. What happened? The far right wingers got tired of it and took over the party. The options left to the liberals among us if we are again thwarted in moving this country forward is either to use every tool possible to take over the Democratic party and push the moderate to liberal Democrats to the background or start a third party that will address and fight for liberal positions not just give mouth service to those ideals. At 55 years old and having seen the Democratic 'leadership' pull this crap over and over if they don't stand up and fight for something (hell, anything) then I will reregister as an independent voter and probably just forget about following politics altogether. I am tired of not being represented (even though since I now live in Vermont my Senators and Representative actually do a pretty good job of supporting what I think should be done) and the liberal ideology not being represented in any constructive way that I am finding it harder and harder to believe that it ever will be in my lifetime. Oh well, end of rant and deeply hope I am wrong about what is going to happen.

[ProSense]

110. Excerpt

here

[davidwparker]

111. you bet'cha'ya, baby.

[abelenkpe2]

112. Seriously?

Can we all walk out on a national strike?

I would love to see that happen. Please please please someone organize that. I'm ready to leave my desk right now.

[WillyT]

115. "That is the normal formula: That the Democrats don't worry about the left."

Yeah... huh...

:mad:

:kick:

[davidwparker]

116. This thread, plus a previously made comment, had me change my avatar

to a REAL Democrat.

Dennis is so right.

[DollyM]

119. I lost out on a job because of no personal health insurance.

Last year, I interviewed for a job that I really wanted. It was a Chamber of Commerce manager position in my home town, the place where I had lived and worked and ran a business and knew what was needed to help business in the area. I was one of 42 people applying for the job. I was one of 6 finalists. In my finalist interview I was asked if I had my own health insurance because the Chamber didn't offer it. (The last Chamber manager died of colon cancer and did not go to the doctor early enough because she did not have health insurance since the chamber didn't offer it.) I told them I didn't but we could work that out later. Then it was between me and one other person. The Chamber board president called me in person and told me that they were impressed with me but they went with the other person. I found out later that the person they chose was in his 70's, had no business experience other than doing fund raising for a children's home where he had worked before he retired. Then it hit me like a ton of bricks, they chose him because he had Medicare. He was not as qualified as me but they knew he had health insurance and they wouldn't face the same problem of an ininsured manager if they hired him. To this day, I still haven't found work and the chances look pretty bleak at this point that i will. I just keep thinking if I had been covered under some sort of insurance policy, I would have had a job, a good job doing something I was good at and making a difference.
My husband is diabetic and has a handicapped plackard from the state. When we have to fill out those equal opportunity forms and they ask if if has a handicap, I am always hesitant to answer yes because they may pass him by since he does have medical bills. Getting every American covered with some sort of insurance would make it easier to get a job, employers would not be concerned about hiring someone with a handicap or a medical condition like they are now and fearing that it will raise the cost of their group insurance. Medical care coverage for all just makes good economic sense. The American cowboy days of pull yourself up by your bootstraps and soldier through without any help, are over. We can't continue with this attitude and have our economy survive.

[Canuckistanian]

120. This is it. This is the big one.

This is the moment that Americans see for themselves whether their government works for them or for corporate interests.

The evidence is in. The public option makes sense. It's financially sound. It'll serve the best interests of low-income people. AND.... poll after poll show the people WANT it, DESPITE the massive propaganda campaigns and outright LIES.

Now Is NOT the time for compromise. No "triggers". No "Co-ops". Compromise is capitulation. There HAS to be a bright line on health care.

And an IMMEDIATE public option IS that bright line.

[MissPuddy]

121. Obama...another corporatist...Welcome to Fascism

No change...corporations own everything...we are so fucked