Firedoglake.com's Jane Hamsher: Not enough evidence exists to keep Manning locked up

[Charleston Chew]

Run time: 03:13 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1nleGXhXSQ   Posted on YouTube: December 24, 2010 By YouTube Member: FiredoglakeTV Views on YouTube: 14   Posted on DU: December 24, 2010 By DU Member: Charleston Chew Views on DU: 3358

 
Firedoglake.com's Jane Hamsher wonders why Bradley Manning is still being held.

visit: http://firedoglake.com

[jaxx]

1. Where did Jane get her law degree?

The chat transcripts are available, Manning confesses to stealing the info.

[truth2power]

8. Did you hear what Hamsher said? There may have been some

hanky-panky with those chat logs.

So, we don't have trials anymore? We just throw people in solitary and torture them until they say what we want?

Good thing we got rid of Saddam's torture rooms. Yessiree.

[Recursion]

12. Trials

So, we don't have trials anymore?

They're planning to take him to trial in early 2011.

We just throw people in solitary and torture them until they say what we want?

Misleading at best. He's not being "tortured", he's being kept in solitary. That's probably too extreme of a segregation, but you can't seriously call it torture.

[EFerrari]

14. This doctor makes the case for doing exactly that.

Hellhole
The United States holds tens of thousands of inmates in long-term solitary confinement. Is this torture?

by Atul Gawande March 30, 2009

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/03/30/090330fa_fact_gawande#ixzz190c9Ny9A

[Hissyspit]

17. "So, we don't have trials anymore?" was clearly referring to the first poster's

automatic assumption of guilt.

[jtuck004]

18. The report on NPR is that it is affecting him badly, and they are having to give him

"uppers" to keep him functioning.

If true, that's over the line for no more than has been reported. I don't see the continuing threat, so is this punishement?

Guy over in Idaho hammered his family to death, and he is in bail on $1,000,000 bond.

Correct. Put up $1,000,000 bail and he can walk the streets with us again.

For Manning, nothing? Worst case he runs, but he will be monitored, so why the reported punishment?

[truth2power]

21. *sigh* you still don't get it...

I don't care what they're "planning to.." You don't torture someone before they're tried and convicted. Or after, for that matter.

Being kept in solitary for any length of time is torture. Can you not do a thought experiment to really put yourself in the place of sitting in a bare room for months and years on end with nothing to do, nothing to read, no one to talk to? Yes, I can seriously call it torture.

I tried to draw an analogy, but apparently it wasn't effective. Actually, I think there must be someone on this board who can explain in minute detail what solitary confinment entails and can post it.

[ProudDad]

28. Actually, this is pretty much

SOP in the USAmerican criminal-injustice system...

This is the form of torture routinely practiced on the most vulnerable persons in "custody" in those torture chambers laughingly called "jails" and "prisons"... :puke:

[defendandprotect]

39. True ... another story we are hearing a little about here and there ....

when prisoners can be heard -- !!

[truth2power]

61. Then the whole stinking mess needs to be cleaned up. n/t

[sabrina 1]

25. He is 23 years old and witnesses who've seen him say he has

deteriorated both physically and mentally in 7 months. If what they are doing, causes him to lose his mind, what would you call it? And why are people in this so-called democracy so tolerant of this kind of brutal and barbaric treatment of other human beings?

Even on their own behalf, when you allow the government to torture and brutalize people your are building a nation that is totally contradictory to what our laws call for.

[defendandprotect]

40. "True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else ..."

Clarence Darrow --

[sabrina 1]

44. Excellent quote, thank you n/t

[sirthomas66]

57. It is incredible. We shouldn't be discussing it like it was a

happening from some soap opera; we should be on the streets with rakes and shovels.

Sir Thomas

[sabrina 1]

58. Yes, we should. However, at least it has reached the point of being

discussed as wrong. Until now, certainly in the MSM he was simply dismissed as a traitor. Before any real activism on his behalf could even begin, it was necessary for a few brave people, like Hamsher and others, to speak out on his behalf.

I think action from Human Rights Orgs (hated, we now know, by the U.S. Government) will have more impact than any of us demonstrating on the streets. We know how much attention our government pays to that. Maybe later after a worldwide effort on his behalf, it would have some impact. But I am glad to see that while I'm sure the U.N. will cave in to the U.S. in the end, at least their willingness to 'look into it' gives it more public attention.

[sirthomas66]

60. Sorry, Sabrina. I respect you having read your posts for a long

time, but in this case I think you are 100% wrong. Human Rights Orgs will accomplish nothing in this climate.

[sabrina 1]

62. You're probably right, sirthomas66. I suppose I would like to

believe they would, but wanting something and getting it are two different things. I was hoping that the revelations from Wikileaks would make the U.S. less sure of themselves and less likely to openly ignore Human Rights Orgs., but I have to admit, you are probably right :-(

[ProudDad]

27. And you have lots of experience with "solitary" confinement

as practiced in the Empire?

I doubt it...

It IS TORTURE by any reasonable definition...

[Go2Peace]

41. So now we know why he is being treated this way

They are short on evidence and hoping he will break down. Trouble with that kind of evidence, it's not dependable.

[EFerrari]

42. He's being treated that way because we allow the government to abuse citizens in secret

and some of us defend those practices.

[Scruffy1]

52. Ever spent any time there?

I have and its a form of torture in my opinion. As a matter of fact it is used as punishment in most high security prisons.

[sirthomas66]

20. This is Exactly what was done during in Enlgand in the 1500's. Then,

it finally corrected itself when more honest and humane leaders took over. Hopefully, we will get one of those soon. But, then, it may be too late.

[defendandprotect]

38. Meanwhile, these criminal forces in government are doing all the damage they can....

[sirthomas66]

46. Yes, but they are close to a vast pronounced response. I'm saying

that will come next year when they cement the end of social security. Where we differ is you talk about some peaceful demonstration because if we use violence they will call us terrorists. I think that for someone to call me a terrorist when I am eating catfood and sleeping under a freeway doesn't really matter too much. I will go the the other route. People are contacting each other now for discovery. You will know what is a happening in just a few months.

[defendandprotect]

48. Should have replied that I agree with all that you said in that post ....

and, further, that those who study these things clearly say that TORTURE really is more

about intimidating the general public to keep them from actions, rather than about the

people actually being tortured at the time.

And, I do see that it becomes more and more difficult to react the further we go down

this right wing path which is impoverishing so many, so swiftly.

We also have the reality of Global Warming -- which I do think they fear very much the public

finally understanding. It's one thing to impoverish citizens, it's another to have destroyed

all of nature and our planet! Obviously, they want to ensure that those who have done this

cannot be held accountable. What's the punishment these days for willfully destroying safety

nets, plunging citizens into poverty -- and destroying the planet?

The yardstick we have too often used to judge injustices -- i.e., the dollar bill -- is more

like to help cover up these crimes than to address them -- which makes clear that the dollar

bill needs to be uninvented.



Re your current comments ...

Yes, but they are close to a vast pronounced response. I'm saying
that will come next year when they cement the end of social security.

Social Security was finished when seniors didn't fight for the COLA --

basically because every $1 anyone had pre-Bush is worth about 50 cents post-Bush --

and we all know that.

Though certainly the new changes to Social Security are intended to complete the damage --

and who knows how much more to come?

Where we differ is you talk about some peaceful demonstration because if we use violence they will call us terrorists. I think that for someone to call me a terrorist when I am eating catfood and sleeping under a freeway doesn't really matter too much. I will go the the other route. People are contacting each other now for discovery. You will know what is a happening in just a few months.

I do talk about keeping to non-violence because I am fearful of those who control our military

and that large array of weapons! And because I think as we've seen from the past it takes a

great deal of courage to make the Ghandi and MLK, Jr.-like sacrifices the anti-Segregation

protestors made. I've never been a part of non-violent actions so I'm definitely not experienced

in it in any way -- but THEIR courage and sacrifices are clear.

We don't differ however on what we wish for our nation and our citizens.

IMO, nature is going to be playing the final cards -- I do think we are much too late in that regard.



:(

[sirthomas66]

55. The other day Holder said the US's biggest problems is terrorism

from within. What that really means is citizens having had enough and starting to fight. I just wonder how many boomers will be killed when the government tries to subdue them. Boomers are not sticks and stones people--they have a lot of stuff. They would be hard-pressed to tackle seasoned marines and Army Rangers, but the National Guard? More even. Whatever. Anyway, I'm going to have to scramble an email for contacts. I'll have to learn how to do it. There are packages available. Well, time for Xmas, D & P. See you in the year of Elephant. Merry. Merry.

[defendandprotect]

56. The Pentagon told W that the largest threat wasn't terrorism ... but Global Warming ....

that it will be increasingly chaotic weather -- increasing hurricanes, storms,

cyclones, tornadoes and earthquakes. And the intensity will increase.

We've changed wind patterns, El Nino and La Nina ARE Global Warming - they originally

occurred once every 1,000 or 2,000 years -- beyond pollution of our oceans -- and now

oil spills -- we are mixing salt water and fresh water from glacier melt.

I'm sure you're correct and that Holder may have been referring to citizen unrest --

but that doesn't change the reality of Global Warming.

And still would suggest whatever "stuff" you think anyone has, it's not drones, missiles,

atomic weapons - bunker busters -- and what is it now, 100,000 or more propagandists

working for the government on websites -- and intelligence reading every e-mail and listening

to every phone call?

For Pete's sake, even peace activists are being labeled "terrorists" by the FBI because

they get Homeland Security $$$ that way!!



Happy Winter Solstice -- and onward to the New Year -- :)

[defendandprotect]

I'm sure this has been going on a long time ... but at least since Susan MacDougall ...

Run time: 03:13 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1nleGXhXSQ   Posted on YouTube: December 24, 2010 By YouTube Member: FiredoglakeTV Views on YouTube: 14   Posted on DU: December 24, 2010 By DU Member: defendandprotect Views on DU: 3358

 
Whitewater --

which is still the same old Arlen Specter, Warren Commission game-playing ...

we don't want your testimony, we want you to say what we want you to say!!

And, when they couldn't get what they wanted by threatening and intimidating

witnesses, they changed the testimony!

Iow, folks, we've been governed by criminals for decades now -- and it's

still going on.

[defendandprotect]

37. And, thanks to Jane Hamsher for her effort re a PETITION ...

and for the info re the shakiness and improbability of the ONLY witness

against Manning!! That's why there's been no trial --

And agree this is an effort to BREAK Manning and to get a confession --

Deliver us from this criminal government -- !!

[EFerrari]

9. Do you have a copy? I'd love to read them. n/t

[MattSh]

15. Nope, I guess he doesn't...

no surprise there...

[fascisthunter]

22. I guess not

[JDPriestly]

16. But, the chat transcripts come from Lamo.

Maybe the government has copies that prove that Lamo really was communicating with Manning, but that information has not been made public. And Lamo is one weird dude -- really, really weird. Have you watched the BBC interview with him? His eyes are very strange. His manner is very strange. He may be taking medication or something, so there may be a legitimate reason for his strange behavior and appearance. But he is very strange.

So, if Manning is not confessing after this much time in solitary and the government has the transcripts from some source other than Lamo, then the allegations against Lamo may be questionable.

Lamo, remember, is a hacker. It is unclear why Manning would have trusted Lamo.

There are all kinds of possible explanations for the transcripts. Use your imagination. Could Lamo have hacked into Manning's computer and produced a bogus communication? I am not computer savvy enough to know whether that would be possible. Seems to me it would not be, but then, these things are way over my head. Do you know?

It is possible that Manning has admitted to something, but then why do they keep him in solitary?

[ProudDad]

29. "why do they keep him in solitary?"

to break him...

To make him "confess" to whatever they want him too...

To make him implicate Assange and therefore have the "evidence" they need to extradite Julian and give him the same treatment...

This IS the way it works...this is Standard Operating Procedure...

Not only in the phony "War on Terra(tm)" but in general in the jails and prisons of USAmerica...

[egoclothes]

51. Yes. as Jane said-its how they break him.

[ProudDad]

26. Why are you defending the Empire?

:shrug:

[molly77]

31. jaxx

I think Manning would have been charged and given the benefit of a speedy trial (constitution) if there were good solid evidence against him.

So the US is keeping a prisoner in inhumane conditions for unspecified reasons and you are concerned with Jane Hampsher having an opinion and not being a lawyer?

Unbelievable. the spin is looking more and more stupid from neocons.I think you are going down along with the US govt.

[sulphurdunn]

36. Good Gawd!

I hope you aren't proposing lawyers as either experts on justice or as exemplars of legal ethics.

[Pharaoh]

2. Thanks Jane!

K&R...........

[suzanner]

3. This is a terrible situation. Thanks for keeping us up to speed.

Nothing like the 60's- and I thought that was bad. This makes Nixon's paranoia seem like a very mild case and look what eventually happened to him. And now we, the people, are all but powerless.

[glinda]

4. K & R n/t

[glinda]

5. Watch this BBC video of Lamo. Click where it says BBC video down page.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/12/19/174826/85

[EFerrari]

11. He looks and sounds drugged. n/t

[glinda]

13. Someone told me he read he was autistic but I am not sure about that.

[defendandprotect]

47. Thanks for the link to the video ...

hard to say what's going on there --

if you watch, he does seem drugged --

if you simply listen, he seems to be responsing appropriately.

Then, again, he's the ONLY witness against Manning --

obviously, I'm just getting familiar with all of this and will try

later to read all of the info at the link.

Presumably, all of this info is alleged by Lamo -- I mean, there's

no other info except what Lamo has provided?

Also seeing someone like this -- and recognizing his prior career in

hacking into personal information -- and looking for info on citizens

to report to officials -- makes me even more suspicious about his actions

re Manning.

Bleech!

[midnight]

6. K&R

[harvey007]

7. Jane Rocks

:loveya:

FireDogLake is awesome.

[EFerrari]

10. First nobody protested this sh!t when it was happening in Afghanistan and Iraq

and at Gitmo. But here we said, it's going to be done to us, just wait.

Well, here it is, folks. They're torturing this kid in plain sight to coerce false testimony.

[sirthomas66]

19. This is the tip of the iceberg as to what this country has turned

in to. When the fascists finally kit Assange, I hope Norway releases every tape available. Next year will be pure horror.

[truth2power]

24. I distinctly remember that . Some DUers saying it would be done to us....

You know, there's a book that I've promoted here from time to time, in another context. In my tattered copy I have this passage underlined because I think it speaks to something over and above the subject of the book. It's particularly relevant, here, IMO.

The title of the book is: "The Hunt for Zero Point" by Nick Cook.

"The Nazis developed a unique approach to science and engineering quite separate from the rest of the world, because their ideology, unrestrained as it was, supported a wholly different way of doing things. Von Braun's V-2's are a case in point, but so was their understanding of physics. The trouble was, when the Americans took it all home with them they found out, too late, that it came infected with a virus. You take the science on, you take on aspects of the ideology, as well.

'And the black world?' I prompted.

'Well, there are different shades of black, of course. But what interests me is tht the bit that is truly unaccountable is the part of the system that's been exposed longest to the virus. So in time, it will simply destroy itself. That, at least, is my earnest hope.'" (270) <Bolding added by me.>

No, this isn't about Nazis, per se, or about antigravity technology (the subject of the book). It's about how our MIC, in pursuit of certain goals, has taken on a poisonous ideology that justifies inhumane treatment of individuals, here, and elsewhere around the world.

[EFerrari]

34. That's very apt, imho. Chalmers Johnson said you can have a domestic democracy

or a foreign empire but not both. We're seeing how right he was.

[sabrina 1]

30. Thank you for pointing for that out.

Any government with so little respect for human life and dignity will definitely do it to their own people.

It's the same thing with the Full Body Scanner and 'Enhanced Patdowns'. I see people say 'I am not bothered by them they don't affect ME'. But now already they are trying to put them in subways, next the mall etc etc. And it isn't about one individual person, ever. But that kind of thinking makes it so easy for totalitarians to take away liberty after liberty until it's way too late to do anything about it.

[molly77]

32. Democracy Now is one of the few places left in MSM for truth.

You can watch online if you don't have a TV.

[EFerrari]

35. "If you have nothing to hide, it shouldn't bother you to be groped by your government"

:)

[sabrina 1]

43. Lol, yes, but you notice that certain people are exempt from

the groping. I want to see Chertoff's full body scan. He's making enough money from these grotesque inventions that he should be willing to demonstrate how they work so we can be assured they are not intrusive. However, airc, people like him will never go through them.

[EFerrari]

45. I don't think any type of photographic equipment produce an image of Skeletor.

:)

[JJW]

23. Banana Republic

This is much worse than what they did to Valerie Plame and Joe Wilson.

Anyone who exposes war crimes and crimes against humanity is a real hero.

[ooglymoogly]

33. Thank you Jane Hamsher for coming to the rescue.

The torture of this man to get him to say what the gestapo wants him to say is fascism. Our real leaders, Jane Hamsher, Keith Olbermann, cenk and a few likes are speaking for us; who are in psychological torment over this cold, severe, blatant, cruel and vicious treatment of a world hero, who understands right and wrong like none of his torturers. Jane Hamsher, you are my hero. I cant wait for you to have a show after or before, Olbermann. You and Keith always get it right. Good onya Jane for exposing pure and evil madness and shinning a light on this gross torture.

[sabrina 1]

59. Agree. She does have courage as standing up for Manning

or Assange on the MSM can probably get on the CIA watch list these days. Very disappointed in Rachel for her statements about the Assange case. I hope she does some more research before she says anything else in defense of those women.

[20score]

49. Thank you Jane Hamsher.

[WillyT]

50. Thank You Jane !!!

:kick: & Rec !!!

[Kurovski]

53. K&R. (nt)

[snot]

54. Er, excuse me, but

the following info might be helpful:

Re- Manning's & Lamo's chats, no, the complete transcripts have not been published. There are excellent analyses of what has been published at http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2010/07/07/did-adrian-lamo-have-two-days-worth-of-ims-with-bradley-manning-on-may-25/ and http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2010/12/23/bradley-manning-and-the-convenient-memories-of-adrian-lamo/ . Apparently, there are anomalies that lead some to suspect that what's been published has at least been edited.

Re- the conditions under which Manning is being held, they're significantly harsher than normal under the circumstances. See http://my.firedoglake.com/blog/2010/12/23/bradley-manning-speaks-about-his-conditions/ and http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/12/14/manning/ .